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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 11:19:54
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Though I'm asking this question from a adventurer's point of view. It is a question directed to the DM's, so I thought I'd post it here: How epic do you let adventurers become?
Like I said in my welcome post earlier (yeah I'm new  ). I dont have a lot of experience with DnD etc. Though I AM a big fan of fantasy and the forgotten realms. And that still made me wonder why nearly every DM I know (about 5 people) let there campaigns run out when the players are around level 14-16.
I can't imagine roleplaying a character, killing one big dragon and then have that be the end of his destiny / adventuring life.. Yet even the DnD players I know also dont have any problem with this and prefer making new characters and learning new things then to experience epic destiny's and what not.
The only possible reason I found for this was when someone told me that the relation between players and the world of forgotten realms is a bit crooked. And it becomes realy hard to make encounters and advetures interresting past level 20 without the players destroying everyting with great ease..
So is this true? How far do you guys plan your campaigns? What do you think about all of this? Personnaly I think its a shame quiting half way in a world that 80% filled with ancient dragons, new realms, ancient civilization and powerfull gods and devils. Maybe I read to mutch about the Immaskar or played to many roleplaying video games (*cough* World of warcraft *cough*). But that's just me
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"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
Edited by - Zapato on 24 Nov 2008 12:06:34
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 13:23:12
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| Absolutely any Epic!!! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 13:55:08
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A DM knows when his campaign is over and when it's time to move on to new characters, whatever the level, he just knows. I ended some campaign at epic level, level 27 actually, and some as low as 12. As for encounters, there are ways, without being ridiculous (Yeah, that goblin chieftain CAN be level 30, but c'mon..).
My high level campaigns tend to have a religious theme, making everything possible. And no, that does not mean you have to fight gods physically, I'm kinda against that. But those gods have champions, armies, can wake monsters from the bottom of the abyss that can raze mountain, stuff like that.
If your PC are really powerful, they will attract attention from people even more powerful, for ill or for good.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 14:26:11
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It depends on the character and what they want... If a character's entire motivation is killing a particular foe, gaining a particular item, or earning some sort of title or leadership position, then it makes sense for them to stop adventuring once they get it -- even if they're on top of their game.
The goal isn't to kill everything. Everyone is going to have their own goals, and many of those goals are pretty simple. I have one character who was more than happy to buy an inn in Waterdeep, hire someone to run it, and then sit back and enjoy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 15:37:10
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Epic looks like great fun but only for a few levels. It all gets a bit unrealistic, fighting hordes of level 22 orc barbarians, waves of ancient red dragons, a band of terrasques ect, because as a DM you have to come up with challenging encounters.
My campaigns usually stop when the players are bored with their characters, they have completed their life goal or they all died in combat. I have no plans of stopping the campaign at a particular level and I'll see how far the group gets. I do have some wild ideas if they ever reach epic level though. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 16:17:00
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I'd make the choice with my players when I got to that point, which would take many years. But the Realms is a sword-and-sorcery setting, not a fundamentally high-level or high-fantasy one, and concepts like destiny don't sit well in it.
In what way crooked? |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 18:21:56
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| I have enjoyed D&D to the mid-level point, then things have always seemed to fizzle. I am excited to see what 4E will do with epic Tier and how the level balance will play out (which I am sure will be subjective to a point). My players usually like to have their characters evolve into NPC's and placed within the story line of future campaigns. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 19:20:11
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I have had a party reach 20th lvl+ in 3.5...and it was possible to capture them using level 1 orcs who grappled well and used nets. I think that the level of the characters doesn't matter so much as long as the role-playing is fun.
A battle in which a level 23 Dwarven Fighter rips apart 20+ orcs while his adventuring party fights off the Zhent Wizards and Beholders is a fun encounter...even if the bad-guys don't have a chance. I like the party to feel at times that the years of hard times they have had finally paid off and now they can relax and not feel like every fight is a do or die situation.
It makes it fun. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 20:19:35
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When things become 'too easy', the game begins to get boring. Part of the fun of playing D&D is your character getting his very first magical item - that feeling you get holding your +1 longsword for the first time is awesome.
When you go from your +7 sword to a +8 model, it starts to become a yawn-fest.
Even things as simple as staying at an Inn - if your characters are low on funds they'll stay at a crappy one, which opens up new areas for roleplay. PCs with tons of money will stay at the best Inns (usually), and they may have different opprtunities (making high-end 'friends'), but they won't get that feeling of danger just by going asleep that night.
The whole thing changes when "crowds gather as you and your party march into the city, and its a time of much fanfare and celebration" - that gets old quick (unless your players have massive egos... I've seen that). Its way more fun sneaking into town in the middle of the night, because a member of your group has a bad rep (probably the thief).
The couple of times I've ran campaigns long enough for PCs to get around level 15, I found they weren't so much 'talking' to the NPCs, as much as making 'Grand Proclamations'. At that point they start to feel like a group of run-away steamrollers.
And besides, everyone loves that 'new character smell'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2008 20:23:49 |
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wannabesuperman
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 21:24:25
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This is a favorite topic of mine, so I'll pitch in.
When my friends asked me if I wanted to take turns DMing, I said, "Sure." I had played DnD for less than six months, and I was hooked. This was in 2000, and 3e was brand new.
They built characters, and we started playing in a small village outside of Silverymoon. We played through about 7th level when I experienced my first TPK. Everyone got knocked off a cliff (nobody Ref saved).
Here's where the Epic part comes in. I realized that I had been running the game for several months, and the players asked if they could build new characters and continue that storyline. For the next six years we went from 5th (didn't want to start at 1st again) to 30+ in 3e.
As an example of the story I planned, one of the characters received a Staff of the Magi at around 13th level, but it wasn't fully activated. The next time he died, the Staff spoke to him and said, "Are you ready to accept your destiny?" That freaked him out, and he said, "No." So the staff reincarnated him.
That piqued his interest, so he started researching the Staff, which was created by a dragon that was cursed to always remain in human form. The Staff was the key to breaking his curse. So the player thought it might turn him into a Dragon or something, but he still feared it.
The powers of the Staff fully awoke after that, though, and not only was it a Staff of the Magi, but it also could absorb spells that targeted the character, if he readied an action to do so. A ridiculously powerful item, I know.
As we moved into Epic levels, the Staff seemed to lose its importance, until the character once again died. The Staff said, "Are you ready to accept your destiny?" This time he said, "Yes."
The Staff used up most of it's power, but brought him back as a Le Shay. If you don't know what that is, it's a supremely powerful Fey with awesome abilities. But how does that help the cursed Dragon/Human?
The Staff was actually commissioned by Khelben for his use at some time in the future, and the character was later asked to give up his power so that Khelben could use the Staff as the fulcrum of his spell to bring back the Hidden City of Fey. (I didn't know what it was actually called: Rhymanthiin.)
One of the other characters was the heir to an ancient Dragon prophecy that was fulfilled when the group broke the grip of the Rage, and another rose through the ranks of Lathander's disciples to become his vessel while Amaunator rose to prominence.
As you may imagine, it was incredibly fun. |
"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and The American Way?" --Clark Kent, Daily Planet. January 2001 |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 11:09:25
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Thanks for all your reply's on this people. I guess it realy depends on how you build your adventures and the people you play with, but it IS possible.
Ow @Faraer: By crooked I mean that the way the game is build, it doesnt allow realistic encounters at high levels making the characters just to powerfull. However now I see that doesnt have to be the case :) |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
Edited by - Zapato on 24 Nov 2008 11:40:50 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 11:11:35
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| My players are unfortunately usually itching to "Try a new character" before we get to the epic levels....got pretty close in one campaign though. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 12:03:10
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HaHa! Hey Tyranthraxus, I didn't expect to see you post in my thread (I just checked your profile to see who you were).
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"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
Edited by - Zapato on 24 Nov 2008 17:22:48 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:49:26
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How epic in my game? In my campaign that started in 2e and transitioned to 3e, the paladin of Tyr kept royally screwing with the church of Talos, so one weekend at the start of the session, I announced that Talos decided to personally intervene and killed the paladin with a bolt of lightning from a clear blue sky, not even leaving a pile of ashes behind. I then introduced the new player's character to the group and pulled in the other players' lower level characters to seemingly start anew... the quest to restore the paladin to life. Being a servant of the god of justice, it wouldn't be very just to be erased from existance for fighting evil, so Tyr discreetly saved his life by breaking his essence up and allowing the younger heroes to find and restore the pieces to the whole form again.
In 3e, that paladin and some of the characters that helped restore him (who caught up to him in level during that other quest) have restored Tilverton to Cormyr. In my campaign, Tilverton was only apparently destroyed... what really happened to it, though, was that Mask used the conflict of magics that supposedly destroyed it as a distraction to steal it and hide it away on the plane of shadow. The heroes travelled to the Plane of Shadow (Shar, privvy to Mask's secret theft, discreetly provided the knowledge to the heroes undermine Mask) with a plan that involved a quasi-god looking to ascend to full demigod status by challenging Mask directly, thus giving the heroes time to find Tilverton. In the end, they also were prepared to summon Kezef and lead him straight to Mask if necessary.
Of course, the last "big adventure" was far less epic, involving a simple kidnapping by an evildoer that the heroes had wronged in the past. Of course, that ended with a devilish army being summoned to wreak havoc on the home town the heroes were based out of, and Asmodeus making a personal appearance to claim the evildoer's soul and making the good guys feel very awkward with thanks for a job well done.
There's more grounded adventures, too... but those are the peak of epicness in our campaign (so far). |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:52:16
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I don't run any games, but I play some, and I hope the games are just as much fun at "epic" levels as they are now. I am confident that they will be. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:55:27
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| Zapato, have you read Power of Faerûn? High-level adventuring isn't just low-level travel-and-fight with bigger numbers, it's about manipulating others to gain political, economic, and magical power. Faerûn's mighty physically confront their foes only rarely and after long scoping out their wards to catch them at a vulnerable time. People don't live to exalted levels through recklessness. |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:22:20
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| True, I was just wondering why so many DM's I know just keep it simple or stop at the point you just discribed. But your right, the word "epic" has a far larger meaning then just high levels and godly items. |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:32:40
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| Well, retiring PCs some time after they reach name level (9th) and start building castles and attracting retinues is a long tradition in D&D, and in the Realms: we read a lot about the long-lived characters but just as prevalent a model is the generational one of retiring to run the farm, research spells, have children and nurture the new generation. We see it in The Temptation of Elminster and the Last Mythal series, for instance. Characters get to high level by responsibilities, alliances and other ties that clash with the freewheeling Tymoran adventuring lots of players want most of all. 3E also has a cumulative rules burden at those levels, especially for the DM. And in campaigns not run as coherent worlds, high-level play can be a prospect of: We're so tall now, everything looks small and artificial. Look, there's Larloch over there, let's see if we can beat him. We've seen it on this very board. So there are lots of reasons players might feel that way. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 08:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Epic looks like great fun but only for a few levels. It all gets a bit unrealistic, fighting hordes of level 22 orc barbarians, waves of ancient red dragons, a band of terrasques ect, because as a DM you have to come up with challenging encounters.
That is exactly what always seemed unrealistic to me as well, but I also think that the players should not know how powerful their opponents are, although they might venture a guess from your description. Is that orc high level? He does wear dirty armor and a notched weapon that isnt cared for ... That might be a low level trash orc OR a high level orc who simply is that good. Throwing these at the PCs makes them waste some of their powerful abilities / spells on creatures that dont really need that much power to get rid of. So the challenge for the DM is to deceive the players into spending more than necessary before the real enemy comes. If the players conserve most of their powers the "easy" encounters get harder, so its a win-win situation IMO.
Just because the players are high level it doesnt mean every encounter they have has to be a challenge, thus figuring out if an encounter is difficult becomes the true challenge. This is one of the main reasons why arcane casters are becomeing too ridiculously overpowered (compared to other classes) in a campaign. Figuring out which >one< of the 30 orcs is the high level assassin killer - before it is too late - is a nice challenge.
Campaigns can end at low level or at really high level. This depends on one question: Is it still fun? If your main goal (save the world from X) got accomplished there can only be lesser challenges and it is probably time to end the campaign. If your players can do whatever they want to without any big risks it probably gets boring and its time to end the campaign. These arent really bound to a certain level, but rather the style of the campaign. There are some basic things for a DM to do to "stretch" the campaign to higher levels.
For some campaigns level 9-12 are high enough and because the Wizard has Teleport and the group travels everywhere magically can be enough to take the fun out of it. You have to remember that the DM has to have fun too in designing his adventures, so becoming too powerful as a PC (and frequent use of Teleport might fulfill this criteria already) can ruin his fun by denying him some possibilities. That is another of the jobs of a DM if he really wants to get to high levels while preserving the fun / challenge of the campaign.
Jobs for the DM for high level campaigns:
- deceive / trick your players into wasting power,
- keep the players "low powered" compared to opponents (stealing / destroying magic items & spellbooks is great) to prevent "unstylish" junk like THIS (its D&D and NOT the US Marines),
- houserule spells and feats to prevent the death of the wandering monster. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 26 Nov 2008 08:50:40 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 18:17:05
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| My campaign's "epic" adventures have yet to reach actual epic levels. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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wannabesuperman
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 20:57:48
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| The most insane battle my PCs had was against an undead dragon radiating an anti-magic aura. He was commanding hundreds of lesser dragons that flew around the battlefield creating a type of domed coliseum. The lesser dragons would normally have had no chance to hit the PCs, but because of the anti-magic, the group's defenses were bare. |
"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and The American Way?" --Clark Kent, Daily Planet. January 2001 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 15:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by wannabesuperman
The most insane battle my PCs had was against an undead dragon radiating an anti-magic aura. He was commanding hundreds of lesser dragons that flew around the battlefield creating a type of domed coliseum. The lesser dragons would normally have had no chance to hit the PCs, but because of the anti-magic, the group's defenses were bare.
If you give out fewer magic items OR have the PCs captured and take away the items OR have some decent melee opponents sunder a few you might not need that anti-magic aura or many other crutches to get through all the defenses. That would make the same encounter a lot more difficult even though your players are at the same character level. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 17:11:35
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The problem is that Monty Haul is built into the 3e rules, and especially the epic rules. Wealth is factored into the CR system. It's not like 2e, where DM's were never given anything beyond vague guidelines as to how much treasure/magic they should give their players, it's explicitly written out.
Now, for the OP's question: I run 2e, and I don't use the DM's Option: High Level Campaigns book, so the concept of "epic" for me is much closer to its traditional English usage as opposed to the badly-concieved Epic Handbook. Not that it matters. In one of my games, the driving motivation of the party comes from the dwarven fighter: he wants to refound Delzoun. It's always been his goal (he's a member of the Highborn kit), and everything he's done has been progressing along that path.
At first, it was simply to become powerful enough to be taken seriously. Now, though, he's shifted gears and has lots of problems. He's got to find dwarves to join the new kingdom, clear out the caverns from all of their monstrous inhabitants, figure out a way to smash the orcs of the North for a generation or two so they don't immediately wipe them out, establish alliances with all the neighboring kingdoms and towns, bring in people with skills he doesn't have (especially wizards of power), and a whole lot more.
It's a quest that has consumed years, both real and in-game. It's huge in its scope, and it allows me to throw whatever I want at them. High level monster bashing? (Let's go bash that deep dragon!) Diplomacy? (Hey Sundabar, there's a deep dragon twenty miles north of you. Let's go bash it together! Or, better, Hey deep dragon! Wanna be an ally?) Wilderness exploration? (Less of that now than before, but there's still plenty that hasn't had their ancient maps updated) Small unit commandos/WWI trenches (Gotta clear out these entrenched orcs). We've even seen some large-scale battles, though not many.
As has been said before, it really depends on what your players want to do, what they find fun. As Ed says, we're here to entertain the players, and the game should change to reflect that. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 21:04:18
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To be honest, when things get out of hand with PC abilities, it's an easy fix to throw in a personal issue for them to deal with.
In other words, being able to cast prismatic spray 11 times a day doesn't help you if your wife becoming sullen because you aren't home to spend time with the family, or if your brother converts to the church of Shar. These sort of personal problems that can't be solved with rolling dice or new abilities will increase roleplay tenfold and put massively powered PCs in check. Plus, it's a helluva lot more fun. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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wannabesuperman
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 02:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
If you give out fewer magic items OR have the PCs captured and take away the items OR have some decent melee opponents sunder a few you might not need that anti-magic aura or many other crutches to get through all the defenses. That would make the same encounter a lot more difficult even though your players are at the same character level.
I know this seems like it would work, but destroying or stealing the PCs' items isn't fun for them, and that's why I run the game. As for giving out fewer items, they were over 20th level. At that level in game, it's not reasonable to have few magic items.
Also, specifically for my PCs, they each had Supernatural abilities that couldn't be "disarmed" or "sundered" without anti-magic, which is why it was so powerful in this particular battle. |
"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and The American Way?" --Clark Kent, Daily Planet. January 2001 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 02:26:57
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| Oh...and don't forget - the match for over-powered PCs should always be over-powered NPCs. A level 10 ftr with a +5 broadsword is not a match for a lvl 15 ftr with the same... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 19:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
If you give out fewer magic items OR have the PCs captured and take away the items OR have some decent melee opponents sunder a few you might not need that anti-magic aura or many other crutches to get through all the defenses. That would make the same encounter a lot more difficult even though your players are at the same character level.
Taking items away can be tricky. You can outright say "problem" items are gone, controlling gameplay with a heavy hand. This is, as mentioned, annoying to players.
You can also have them stolen, but this can be unreliable if done correctly. Correctly being defined as having a thief of appropriate Challenge Rating make the appropriate skill checks to get close to and take those items without being noticed. If you give the thief too much of an advantage, you might as well skip on the checks and take away what you want outright since your players will be just as angry. If they have a fair or better than average chance to catch a potential thief in the act, the impact of lost gear may be lessened on them (assuming you tell them what kind of chances were involved).
It is unreasonable to expect high level characters to not have a lot of phat lewt... unless the DM handed it to them to begin with, they should have earned it. And if the DM does hand out such treasure that he later feels threatened by it and needs to take it away, then the blame lies clearly with the DM and not the game mechanics. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 02:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
To be honest, when things get out of hand with PC abilities, it's an easy fix to throw in a personal issue for them to deal with.
In other words, being able to cast prismatic spray 11 times a day doesn't help you if your wife becoming sullen because you aren't home to spend time with the family, or if your brother converts to the church of Shar. These sort of personal problems that can't be solved with rolling dice or new abilities will increase roleplay tenfold and put massively powered PCs in check. Plus, it's a helluva lot more fun.
I agree, family troubles can make for an especially dramatic plot. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 21:09:11
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don't have problems with epicness, it can go above 30th level, except with roleplaying creatures with high Int, but you can mask it
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Uther1066
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 08:41:45
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| The problem I'm having in my campaign is that I keep handing out roleplaying opurtunities to give the PC's some depth to their characters and give them other adventure oppurtunities. They won't take the bait and are happy with hack and slash adventures. It's getting a little hard now that they're 11-12th lvl... how does a new DM know when to kill off a campiagn and start over? |
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How epic do you let adventurers become?
