| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Zapato |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 11:19:54
Though I'm asking this question from a adventurer's point of view. It is a question directed to the DM's, so I thought I'd post it here: How epic do you let adventurers become?
Like I said in my welcome post earlier (yeah I'm new  ). I dont have a lot of experience with DnD etc. Though I AM a big fan of fantasy and the forgotten realms. And that still made me wonder why nearly every DM I know (about 5 people) let there campaigns run out when the players are around level 14-16.
I can't imagine roleplaying a character, killing one big dragon and then have that be the end of his destiny / adventuring life.. Yet even the DnD players I know also dont have any problem with this and prefer making new characters and learning new things then to experience epic destiny's and what not.
The only possible reason I found for this was when someone told me that the relation between players and the world of forgotten realms is a bit crooked. And it becomes realy hard to make encounters and advetures interresting past level 20 without the players destroying everyting with great ease..
So is this true? How far do you guys plan your campaigns? What do you think about all of this? Personnaly I think its a shame quiting half way in a world that 80% filled with ancient dragons, new realms, ancient civilization and powerfull gods and devils. Maybe I read to mutch about the Immaskar or played to many roleplaying video games (*cough* World of warcraft *cough*). But that's just me |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gang Falconhand |
Posted - 06 Jan 2009 : 09:52:26
The previous campaign I ran had a definite endpoint where the great big bad nasty threat to Faerun was ultimately stopped. I ended the campaign with them having gained new allies and leaping through a Gate with an army of warrior-women to defeat a Titan they inadvertantly freed from imprisonment. I wanted to leave it there because defeating the Titan was going to go on for a LONG time and wanted to end on a high and not beat them all into submission when they'd just had the win they'd been seeking for so long. They were around 18th level.
The current campaign I'm running I don't know what's going to happen. I have ideas for various mini-campaigns (that the PCs may or may not pursue) that will have endings but there will be fallout from each and that might take them in different directions. I wanted this campaign to be much more freeform than the previous one and give the players more control over their characters' destinies. If we get to epic I think I'd run with that too. Perhaps the only thing that would prevent that is if everyone was killed. |
| Artemel |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 22:22:11
Two of the longest running campaigns I've ever played in ended at 19th level...
However, one cannot be said to have really ended, because whenever at least 3 of us can get together, we advance the time line by a few months. Every few times we get together, we level... so epic will probably happen sometime this decade.
The game started in... 2001, 2002? We still have 2 of the orignal characters in the group, with the others generally having died and deciding to stay dead, hence, new characters. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 01:22:47
I've had bad luck finding gaming groups and I've never actually made it past 4th level in pen and paper gaming. However, I'm a sucker for story rather than "let's go beat up the bad guys" so I think I would still enjoy epic level play if I was playing under a good DM who came up with a really fantastic story. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 23:53:28
quote:
designing laser-mirror towers for defence vs future trollproblems
Interesting idea. Got pictures? |
| Ikki |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 15:09:56
Well, the playing form can change quite much too..
Letsay you gather your wealth and set up a very prosperous colony... return home with your employer turned wife and having 27 levels get busy organising teaparties and such, doing the noble life.
Like designing a giant underwater castle a or so off deepwater isle.. at a miles dept. Naturally all well warded and with a glorious view ;) (see king lear, dungeon #78 & some walls redesigned)
Perhaps building a new wall for sasser.. err.. waterdeep :P
And designing laser-mirror towers for defence vs future trollproblems?
And once the underwater palace has dazzled the other nobles, do something even more unique..
A underground "drow city".. all 300´*400´& 250´ high, inside one of those rocks off the coast ;)
With alter self employees & drow loot. Everything from tavers to massage parlors.. and a compulsory noble house (twin pyramids, one from the roof, the other from the ground. Webs connecting wallhouses and stalag- houses.) Sure stays exotic for a good while? ;)
Naturally having to deal with envious saboteurs and pickpockets. And in a way that suits the culture.. so no meteorswarming*50 House Gost, and cutting future lord and heir of House Enveol to pieces over a pickpocketed diamond, just wont cut it.
And all the usual guild problems or perhaps recruiting a new rooster of sponsored adventurers...
And whenever the primary lords and ladies get a bit tired of playing diplomacy, trumph construction & monopoly, pick up one of the sponsored groups and run an edventure with them ;) |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 13:50:49
I agree, Ghost King. As long as you enjoy the character, levels really make no difference. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 09:29:53
I'm trying to catch up for lost time, so if my post is slightly out of place, my apologies. As a DM I find it rather hard to let campaigns go epic in 3.0 or 3.5 due to the fact I think it should be a rare occurance. I have DMed a few epic level tiered adventures but it soons fall apart due to either PCs getting a little too overzealous (aka dead from charging epic creatures unprepared) or just that the PCs are content with their station and we wrap up an open-ended conclusion for the adventurers. They're "retired" except when needed that just no one else can handle (usually just a rare get together of the old group when everyone is back in town). In 4E I haven't had the the oppertunity to play above heroic level yet as a PC or as a DM, and to be honest I'm in no rush. My suggestion has always been as long as you enjoy playing a character and have a reasonable drive to continue adventuring then I say keep with it. |
| Uther1066 |
Posted - 11 Dec 2008 : 01:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Uther1066
I didn't try swarm tactics with my PC's, they went up against a a powerful Green Dragon that had access to high lvl spells. I thought I did a good job dropping clue upon clue giving hints to his power... speel books and scrolls in his hoarde, allied with infernal powers, ransacking much more powerful NPC's...
BUT, they didn't get it, charged right at him and got owned, ROYALLY. No one said anything, but I got the hint that they thought I was being a dick DM for putting a high level monster in the adventure. I was hoping they would try to talk to him and thereby gather more intel, the dragon knew they were coming via crystal ball and was no threat to the PC's themselves, he had other plans. The PC's didn't care, they just charged and rolled init. and got their assess kicked.
So, being a reletivly new DM, am I reaching a point where I should end this?Just start a new campaign? I'm not having a whole lot of fun if I can't have some story line to go with and SOME roleplaying at these moderatly high lvls. or is there someother way I can get them into this?
Next time you might try "forcing" the players to roleplay. Dont kill them, capture them and then roleplay the interrogation / torture (?) sessions! You might want to have those sessions in a dark and damp basement to help them get the feeling ... whatever creepy place you can come up with. Oh and dont forget to deny them food during those sessions and stick to candles ... 
After you had your fun release them with fewer magic items than they started with ... and a "mission" (Geas / Quest) to repay the "kindness" of the one who captured them. Dont forget to make this mission one they wouldnt have done if they werent forced (like stealing a holy relic from a temple).
If they still dont get it - that there are more dimensions to D&D than simply dealing the most damage in the shortest amount of time - a straightforward talk might do the trick. Explain to them the signs you used and what you intended them to do. Maybe your "hints" are presented in a way that is too subtle for them or maybe their attention to detail was lacking.
This gives me and idea... he he... |
| Uther1066 |
Posted - 11 Dec 2008 : 01:06:56
we're gaming it up this weekend, lets hope all goes according to plan...
They'll be walking into a major battle, BUT to get involved they need to talk to the commanders of the forces. They are already on there sh*t list for taking on the dragon, now the dragon's forces are wreaking havoc. I'm hoping that the battle will keep them satisfied with combat and if they take care of buisness, there are no obvious "hooks" on how to continue. I want them to take the initiative and decide how best to go from here depending on how everything turns out... even I don't know the outcome of the battle. All will depend on their choices... here goes nothing. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 07:38:56
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Oh...and don't forget - the match for over-powered PCs should always be over-powered NPCs. A level 10 ftr with a +5 broadsword is not a match for a lvl 15 ftr with the same...
To beat a level 10 fighter with a +1 sword you dont need to give your NPCs a +5 weapon. This keeps your NPCs "lower powered" and more realistic: You dont have to use that "Fiendish vampiric Dire Elephant of Legend". With higher powered enemies you get a bigger risk of getting spike damage that kills your players easily. After all big baddies know that focused fire makes more sense than spreading your damage. Thus low power is good for PC survival. If your PCs cruise through the NPCs without much risk they are "too powerful" and *should* get ZERO XP (just check the DMG). |
| Pandora |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 07:29:57
quote:
Originally posted by Uther1066
I didn't try swarm tactics with my PC's, they went up against a a powerful Green Dragon that had access to high lvl spells. I thought I did a good job dropping clue upon clue giving hints to his power... speel books and scrolls in his hoarde, allied with infernal powers, ransacking much more powerful NPC's...
BUT, they didn't get it, charged right at him and got owned, ROYALLY. No one said anything, but I got the hint that they thought I was being a dick DM for putting a high level monster in the adventure. I was hoping they would try to talk to him and thereby gather more intel, the dragon knew they were coming via crystal ball and was no threat to the PC's themselves, he had other plans. The PC's didn't care, they just charged and rolled init. and got their assess kicked.
So, being a reletivly new DM, am I reaching a point where I should end this?Just start a new campaign? I'm not having a whole lot of fun if I can't have some story line to go with and SOME roleplaying at these moderatly high lvls. or is there someother way I can get them into this?
Next time you might try "forcing" the players to roleplay. Dont kill them, capture them and then roleplay the interrogation / torture (?) sessions! You might want to have those sessions in a dark and damp basement to help them get the feeling ... whatever creepy place you can come up with. Oh and dont forget to deny them food during those sessions and stick to candles ...
After you had your fun release them with fewer magic items than they started with ... and a "mission" (Geas / Quest) to repay the "kindness" of the one who captured them. Dont forget to make this mission one they wouldnt have done if they werent forced (like stealing a holy relic from a temple).
If they still dont get it - that there are more dimensions to D&D than simply dealing the most damage in the shortest amount of time - a straightforward talk might do the trick. Explain to them the signs you used and what you intended them to do. Maybe your "hints" are presented in a way that is too subtle for them or maybe their attention to detail was lacking. |
| see |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 06:34:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even things as simple as staying at an Inn - if your characters are low on funds they'll stay at a crappy one, which opens up new areas for roleplay. PCs with tons of money will stay at the best Inns (usually), and they may have different opprtunities (making high-end 'friends'), but they won't get that feeling of danger just by going asleep that night.
Who needs an inn when you have an Instant Fortress? |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 04 Dec 2008 : 15:09:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Sometimes, you just have crappy players. The story of my life...
Ha! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Dec 2008 : 14:58:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Sometimes, you just have crappy players. The story of my life...
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Dec 2008 : 02:46:04
quote:
Originally posted by Uther1066
I didn't try swarm tactics with my PC's, they went up against a a powerful Green Dragon that had access to high lvl spells. I thought I did a good job dropping clue upon clue giving hints to his power... speel books and scrolls in his hoarde, allied with infernal powers, ransacking much more powerful NPC's...
BUT, they didn't get it, charged right at him and got owned, ROYALLY. No one said anything, but I got the hint that they thought I was being a dick DM for putting a high level monster in the adventure. I was hoping they would try to talk to him and thereby gather more intel, the dragon knew they were coming via crystal ball and was no threat to the PC's themselves, he had other plans. The PC's didn't care, they just charged and rolled init. and got their assess kicked.
So, being a reletivly new DM, am I reaching a point where I should end this?Just start a new campaign? I'm not having a whole lot of fun if I can't have some story line to go with and SOME roleplaying at these moderatly high lvls. or is there someother way I can get them into this?
-Sometimes, you just have crappy players. The story of my life...
-Looking at what you provided, if the players got their asses kicked, it's their own faults. You just don't go charging into Dragon lairs. That's like, rule number one. Maybe two.
-If you're not having fun running things, though, mention something to the players. Ask what they think, and tell them how you feel. If, just for a little while, everyone can work together to make it enjoyable for everyone, players and DM alike, then I'd say keep at it. If you don't think that the players can change their habits enough, or you can't change your habits enough, and neither players or DM are having fun, I'd call it quits. |
| Uther1066 |
Posted - 04 Dec 2008 : 02:14:39
I didn't try swarm tactics with my PC's, they went up against a a powerful Green Dragon that had access to high lvl spells. I thought I did a good job dropping clue upon clue giving hints to his power... speel books and scrolls in his hoarde, allied with infernal powers, ransacking much more powerful NPC's...
BUT, they didn't get it, charged right at him and got owned, ROYALLY. No one said anything, but I got the hint that they thought I was being a dick DM for putting a high level monster in the adventure. I was hoping they would try to talk to him and thereby gather more intel, the dragon knew they were coming via crystal ball and was no threat to the PC's themselves, he had other plans. The PC's didn't care, they just charged and rolled init. and got their assess kicked.
So, being a reletivly new DM, am I reaching a point where I should end this?Just start a new campaign? I'm not having a whole lot of fun if I can't have some story line to go with and SOME roleplaying at these moderatly high lvls. or is there someother way I can get them into this? |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 17:14:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Wow, that does sound pretty awesome...I like that part, about the "secret" DMing stuff. I think I'd like to do stuff like that, but I'm constrained because of literal lack of space when playing (it's somewhat cramped) and my relative lack of players (three players, total, in two campaigns).
heh, I'm on the other side of the player fence, I've got 7 and we just don't have the time to do much secret stuff. I've been able to develop some individual plot points but nothing big.
Dragon Mountain definitely ruled, one of my favorites. When I ran it we also had a memorable moment. When the kobold horde attacked the town before the PCs went to the Mountain the PCs wizard shape changed into a Red Wyrm and just rolled over the kobolds, no claws, no bite, just rolling around. It was pretty awesome.
I'm not sure where I'll end the campaign I'm running now, the players are in the 7-8 region and I've got plenty of plot for the campaign still so I wouldn't be surprised to see them get pretty high up there but since there's 7 of them it might end up impossible to keep the characters pointed towards the same goals.
It's actually a little frustrating, since I try to run a player driven game (rather than a DM driven) but I only have one player who has decently solid goals (and they aren't even really solid). I might experiment with running a couple of goal driven games (alright guys, today your goal is X because your DM says so and you guys don't have any personal goals anyways) but they sort of leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Anyhow, I let the game go as long as we're having fun. If we stop having fun then I'll reboot and try something new. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 16:16:49
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I can promise you that it will be, if it makes it that far. I see no reason why it wouldn't, though. We're only just beginning, and I have so much planned...
I'm very excited about what is to come, then! |
| Pandora |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 09:28:27
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
If you give out fewer magic items OR have the PCs captured and take away the items OR have some decent melee opponents sunder a few you might not need that anti-magic aura or many other crutches to get through all the defenses. That would make the same encounter a lot more difficult even though your players are at the same character level.
Taking items away can be tricky. You can outright say "problem" items are gone, controlling gameplay with a heavy hand. This is, as mentioned, annoying to players.
You can also have them stolen, but this can be unreliable if done correctly. Correctly being defined as having a thief of appropriate Challenge Rating make the appropriate skill checks to get close to and take those items without being noticed. If you give the thief too much of an advantage, you might as well skip on the checks and take away what you want outright since your players will be just as angry. If they have a fair or better than average chance to catch a potential thief in the act, the impact of lost gear may be lessened on them (assuming you tell them what kind of chances were involved).
Using a Thief to steal magic items is something you can do every once in a while, but it isnt the only solution to too many items that are already in your group. You can capture the PCs(*1) and have their items be taken away so they have to start again (if they manage to escape). This is acceptable, because the numbers of gold pieces listed in the DMG state the total wealth and includes the stuff they already spent! If your PCs use up charged items a lot they should have a lot less than the listed amount. If you didnt do it this way your players could say "We have spent the stuff and now have less than the amount we should have ... so give us more.".
Another solution which is used not nearly as much as it should be is: SUNDER (and DISARM). You can destroy magic items in combat relatively easily if you make an effort. A fighter without a weapon is no threat anymore, no matter how many hit points he has left. A wizard who lost his spell component pouch with his belt cant cast all of his spells. Using these tactics might even add another dimension to your fights because your players might try to do the same instead of "going through the wall" by dealing only damage.
The good solution is being careful with the amount of items that are in the group. Most modules published make sense if you only look at the module itself, but if you add several of them together you have too much magic. So modules need to be taken care of most of the time. I am rewriting the classic "U1 - The Sinister secret of Saltmarsh" and there are quite a few +1 items lying around there ... far too many for a group of level 1-3 chars, because the amount of items found in the next few adventures should be roughly the same.
I have played in a campaign which had a low amount of magic items, a low amount of organized wizards (so PC wizards didnt have many opportunities to buy spells) and a low amount of money made me appreciate the skills of the class more. There is a nice thing someone from the Dead Gentlemen says on the Dorkness Rising DVD: Not having a lot of money is a blessing, because it forces creativity.
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
It is unreasonable to expect high level characters to not have a lot of phat lewt... unless the DM handed it to them to begin with, they should have earned it. And if the DM does hand out such treasure that he later feels threatened by it and needs to take it away, then the blame lies clearly with the DM and not the game mechanics.
This is a part of third edition ... the players EXPECT to have magic items worth X because "the list says so". It is not a guaranteed thing, but rather a suggested amount.
The solution? Make the players understand why they shouldnt get that much! The simple truth for this is: The more power the players have, the more powerful the monsters have to be the DM throws at them to keep them challenging. This will easily result in too ridiculous (=unrealistic) monsters OR you might throw stuff at them which doesnt really challenge them because they are too powerful due to their load of magic items. Both will change how challenging an encounter is, but the more power is involved on the DMs side the easier it is to go really bad for the PCs due to lucky/unlucky rolls.
A low amount of magic items is a requirement to keep wizards in check at higher levels and to keep them from outshining the others in the group.
Example:
Compare the relative effect a level 20 Fighter / Wizard gets when he increases his primary stat (Str/Int) by +2 due to improving his magic items. Those are "basic" items, but the Fighter only gains a small relative improvement in hit and damaging capability. Those are RELATIVELY small when you compare them to an increase in DC for the Wizard AND (!!!!) a few more bonus spells. Melee classes are always said to be gear dependant (a fighter without a sword or armor is less effective), BUT the Wizard does gain more from magic items in the end. Another thing is that Wizards are the "masters of flexibility" and they gain a lot more from most items which trigger an effect. That can even be a cheap item like Boots of Levitation, which makes Wizards "invulnerable" to melee in many situations (and ranged combat is not as dangerous as melee) but which are useless to a Fighter whose main duty is going into melee himself. Also consider the - again RELATIVE - increase when a Fighter goes from +4 to +5 weapon. It is pretty low, but the increased flexibility Wizards get from a new effect they didnt have before is the same regardless of the level of the Wizard.
Thus it isnt only the ridiculously powerful items which can be imbalancing, but also the cheap stuff. A solution is keeping the amount of magic lower than suggested in the DMG and thinking carefully about the items you do add.
In the case of magic items less is more!
(*1) Capture one of the PCs in a fight and then demand the others give up or he gets killed. This is a "moral dilemma", but nevertheless something you could do. Capturing someone is relatively easy too IMO: Just add every Strength-damage/penalty effect that can be added together. The encumbrance of most people should make them as mobile as a snail and totally have them at your mercy. Even a simple Ray of Enfeeblement can make your low-Str Wizard pretty much helpless in his traveling clothes if you are lucky. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 06:23:53
Ahh... One of the best things my DM did to us when we went epic was throw skeletons at us.
But he used Swarm rules for the skeletons. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 05:56:00
-Wow, that does sound pretty awesome...I like that part, about the "secret" DMing stuff. I think I'd like to do stuff like that, but I'm constrained because of literal lack of space when playing (it's somewhat cramped) and my relative lack of players (three players, total, in two campaigns). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 05:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That was part of the point of the old Dragon Mountain module.... One red dragon and a few thousand kobolds. And the dragon was calling the shots, bossing the kobolds around. So an entire boxed set sized adventure was based upon one of the weakest D&D critters around.
I LOVED Dragon Mountain.
I don't know if you guys remember the trap or not; but it goes:
DM: "Your character steps forward and SLAM!...a gigantic block of stone slams down on you...roll a save to get out of the way."
Player: "Crap! I only rolled a 2!!! How much damage do I take?"
DM: "Damage? No damage...you are dead!"
All the Players: "Holy $%*@!!! Dude, that sucks!"
Dead Player: "Dead? Just like that?!?"
DM: "Yes...not enough of you left to even Raise Dead with...the party sees your guts and blood oozing out from under the stone block; lets go over here and talk about your new character while the rest of the party takes a break."
Dead Player: "Man this sucks!"
DM and Dead Player walk away and sit at another table to talk about the new character...or so the rest of the party thinks!
DM: "Ok..your character is actually alive. It looks like you are stuck inside a stone block that was hollowed out. You yell and scream, but hear no answer yet. Sit here and look over these books and pretend you are making another character while I go back to the rest of the group."
Not Dead Player: "Sweet! Man, I loved that character...I've played him for a year now and have a nearly full notebook on his history!"
DM: "Well, the party will probably figure out that what guts and blood they see are fake if the cleric or ranger takes a look at it...I'll be back in a second when I see what they do."
DM returns to the table and says: "Ok, what are you guys going to do about this ten foot block of stone blocking the hallway?"
Wizard Player: "Ten foot you say? I cast disintegrate and we move on I guess."
Not Dead Player...most likely dead again screams from across the room: "NOOOOOOOOO!!!! #^%&^$% @#$#% $%#$%#$ $^&##..."
DM just grins.
Yeah, best fun I ever had as a DM.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 05:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't run any games, but I play some, and I hope the games are just as much fun at "epic" levels as they are now. I am confident that they will be.
-I can promise you that it will be, if it makes it that far. I see no reason why it wouldn't, though. We're only just beginning, and I have so much planned... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 05:48:36
-It's nothing Forgotten Realms, but my 1st campaign, the characters are reaching 11th Level (started out at 1st Level), and in my 2nd one, the characters are 10th Level (started out at 10th Level). Slowly, but surely, they're getting there. As a DM, their higher levels opens more doors for me, as I can use more and more creatures. On the flip side, however, they are starting to get into "movers and shakers" territory, which bothers me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 03:32:57
That was part of the point of the old Dragon Mountain module.... One red dragon and a few thousand kobolds. And the dragon was calling the shots, bossing the kobolds around. So an entire boxed set sized adventure was based upon one of the weakest D&D critters around. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 01:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by Uther1066
I have thought of that, in fact I was seriously considering it. However, the more I think about it the more they would simply get bored and start rolling init. on some 20lvl pit fiend or something...
Here is a trick I tried with a party that wanted nothing but Hack and Slash:
Send them on a normal adventure into a land known to be inhabited by large numbers of humanoids...then plop them right in the middle of a mustering horde of them. I mean hundreds or even thousands of baddies (I did this to a party of level 20 somethings) and let them go hog wild!
Before you do this, make sure you look at some rules on fighting for long periods of time, or even make up some of your own. Make it so that after a while, their characters start getting tired, then exhausted. Literally wear out their characters...then keep the monsters coming! To keep monsters (or I used orcs) interested in the party despite losing so many...give the party a valuabel "Artifact" that the Orcs (or whatever) have as a religious item. It may have absolutely no worth at all, but to the fanatical monsters it will be something that they not only have to take back; but that they have to cleanse with the blood of the party that stole it!
Again, I did this with orcs. My party killed so many orcs I also had to make up rules for how many bodies dying in a square caused that square to first become difficult terrain, then provide cover and so on until it simply couldn't be passed. Finally, some orcs with nets leapt from the piles of their dead kin onto the party from many directions and finally subdued them...it wasn't my fault at all that the party could have gotten away if they had wanted to but chose to stay just because they were fighting "nothing but orcs! I'm not running from a bunch of low life orcs!"
This one encounter actually took us a couple of sessions to play out; but it is one of the most memorable sessions we had and we still talk about it to this day. AND, importantly for me, it taught my players that even the lowest creature could take them down if they were just too stubborn.
For your group...maybe try Kobolds. |
| Uther1066 |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 00:55:38
I have thought of that, in fact I was seriously considering it. However, the more I think about it the more they would simply get bored and start rolling init. on some 20lvl pit fiend or something... |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 14:13:07
When either the story is done or the characters are dead. If they've been too hack 'n slash, have you thought about sending some really tough challenges their way? Ones that they shouldn't fight? |
| Uther1066 |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 08:41:45
The problem I'm having in my campaign is that I keep handing out roleplaying opurtunities to give the PC's some depth to their characters and give them other adventure oppurtunities. They won't take the bait and are happy with hack and slash adventures. It's getting a little hard now that they're 11-12th lvl... how does a new DM know when to kill off a campiagn and start over? |
| Quale |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 21:09:11
don't have problems with epicness, it can go above 30th level, except with roleplaying creatures with high Int, but you can mask it
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