| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 01:04:26
|
-Pretty self-explanatory. Checked in the package itself, and online, but couldn't find anything. The set come out in December 1992, and it is "set" before the Time of Troubles (1,358 DR) because of the inclusion of House Oblodra, and no mentions of the Time of Troubles...That's as much as I've narrowed it down, however.
-The Coral Kingdom was written in September of 1992, In Sylvan Shadows in April of 1992, but those take place in varying times (the former in 1,365 DR, and the former in 1,361 DR), so those are no help. Anyone know?
|
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Nov 2008 01:04:41
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 03:44:21
|
I'd say right after, or around, the ending of the dark elf trilogy cause Vierna is still with the merc company, according to the box set.
So, I'd say between 1340 and 1347 according to the novel timeline WOTC has online since the dark elf tril ended in 1347. However, the box set mentions references to the Hall of Heroes sourcebook, so maybe that'll help narrow it down also.
Edit: Actually, I'm changing that to around 1328 since the Grand Hist timeline says that is when Drizzt left Menzo. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Nov 2008 03:58:30 |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 03:58:52
|
Based on Kuje's initial thoughts, I'd take it one step further and suggest 1348 DR as the possible date, based almost exclusively on this bit from pg. 2 of the House Do'Urden Retrospective:- "(Their covert war would begin in Year 1338, lasting ten full years.)"
'Tis not definitive, I know, but using the aforementioned dates from the 'WotC Novel Timeline,' we at least have a period to work around.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 04:45:45
|
But doesn't Drizzt leave Menzo after his house falls? So, as I said in my edit, Brian's timeline places him leaving in 1328...... Least in the electronic copy of the Grand Hist. I can't find my printed copy atm, I stuck it somewhere so I can't check if that is still the date...
But it's been so long since I read those novels, I could be mistaken about him leaving after his house falls.....
So, either way it's around 1328 or 1348. :)
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Based on Kuje's initial thoughts, I'd take it one step further and suggest 1348 DR as the possible date, based almost exclusively on this bit from pg. 2 of the House Do'Urden Retrospective:- "(Their covert war would begin in Year 1338, lasting ten full years.)"
'Tis not definitive, I know, but using the aforementioned dates from the 'WotC Novel Timeline,' we at least have a period to work around.
|
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Nov 2008 05:09:46 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 09:08:17
|
A take-out from the Menzo - Box, House Do'Urden entry:
quote:
With the fall of House DeVir (#4), House Hun'ett (then #5) became bitter rivals with House Do'Urden. (Their covert war would begin in Year 1338, lasting ten full years.)
(The House Do'Urden Retrospective, p.2)
That actually means that Do'Urden did not fall before 1348 D.R.. I always "dated" the Menzoberranzan Box as just before 1358 D.R. and the city's assault on Mithral Hall. Do note that the fall of House Oblodra happened just prior to this assault, so I reckon in late 1357 or early 1358 D.R.. And House Oblodra, as you know, is still listed as an existing house in said box. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 11 Nov 2008 16:47:14 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 16:19:38
|
Zanan has it right. Ed says:
The "now" of the Menzo boxed set is the beginning of the fourth quarter of the year 1357 DR.
A certain bedspread in my house still has magic marker all over it, from "leakage" whilst drawing about 30,000 stalagmites for the giant "master maps."
So saith Ed, inveterate stalagmite-drawer. 
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 18:46:57
|
I disagree with the above formulations. The best I can tell, the current time of the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set should be considered to be sometime concurrent with The Legacy, in early spring of 1358 DR.
- SOD runs from late summer through early winter of 1358 DR, the same year as the Time of Troubles.
- SN takes place in the summer right before SOD (1358 DR).
- TL, which features the death of Vierna, tells of events in the spring of that same year (by my calculations, 1358 DR).
- Per THG, the short story "Dark Mirror", and TL, Drizzt spent a few months taking solo journeys back and forth between Mithral Hall and Silverymoon before the springtime pending wedding between Wulfgar and Catti-brie. This means that he began these journeys towards the end of the previous year (1357 DR). "DM" tells of Drizzt's first such solo journey, with snow all about the ground surrounding Mithral Hall, which has been reopened, and WOTC has officially dated that short story in the year 1357 DR.
- THG tells us that that year (i.e., 1357 DR), the dwarves re-took MH in the spring, reestablished largescale mining operations, and sent the first mithral goods to market in the autumn.
- This would then mean that THG's tale of the mission to rescue Regis in Calimport took place in the latter half of the previous year to that (1356 DR).
- And SOSi takes place in the first half of that year (1356 DR).
- TCSh ends in the spring, with the males just beginning the journey featured in SOSi. This would be spring, 1356 DR. The previous autumn was the setting for the Battle of Icewind Dale against Kessell's monstrous army, which was also the time set for the end of Wulfgar's five-year period of indenture (1355 DR). This means that the beginning of his indenture, and therefore the beginning of TCSh, took place five years earlier (1350 DR). We're specifically told that the Luskan Hosttower wizards' caravan took place in the summer, immediately preceding the autumn when we meet Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor, and Wulfgar.
- According to the beginning of all editions of TCSh, Drizzt had been living near Ten-Towns for five years. That means that he moved to the T-T area in 1345 DR. Soj. describes Drizzt's immigration to T-T in the autumn (1345 DR), with him preparing for his seventh winter on the surface. Roddy speaks with several tavern patrons, recollecting about how a drow had been seen in the Maldobar region six years before. These clues indicate that Drizzt must've begun Soj. in 1339 DR, with the end of that year marking his first winter. That book tells us that he had spent four months of increasing cold on the surface, which would indicate that he must've come to the surface in the summer of 1339 DR.
- The entirety of Exi. takes place one decade after the closing events of Hom., and Jarlaxle tells us that Matron Mother Malice has aged in just a "few short months". These time clues would seem to indicate that the whole of Exi. occurs in the earlier part of the year 1339 DR. And this was the last we heard from Vierna, with intimations that Bregan D'aerthe might be interested in recruiting her, in addition to her brother Dinin, until TL.
- This would seem to mean that the beginning of the decade-long House Do'Urden/House Hun'ett war must've begun in the year 1329 DR, just after the end of Hom.
With Vierna being described here as part of BD, as a starting point it would seem that this product could be set at just about any time between summer of 1339 (end of Exi.) and spring of 1358 DR (beginning of TL). That's a ~19 year window.
However, there is more. "The House Do'Urden Retrospective" initially says that it will provide stats on the characters in the year of Drizzt's birth, which was allegedly 1297 DR (p.2) (though my calculations point to an alternative birth date of 1298 DR, instead). At any rate, the section then details Drizzt at a much later time, after he has acquired both of his magic surface scimitars (p.6). Consider:
quote:
For purposes of this supplement, we'll detail House Do'Urden's NPCs in the Year of the Singing Skull (1297 DR), perhaps the height of Matron Malice Do'Urden's power. The NPC information about her renegade son, Drizzt, though, will be up-to-date. (bold added; MBS, "THDUR":p.2)
That last little blurb would seem to knock out a huge chunk of our time window (more on that below).
Also, there is this:
quote:
What follows, then, is an updated version of that Hall of Heroes entry, including new equipment the drow has acquired. (MBS, "THDUR":p.6)
This entry mentions both Drizzt's forest-green fur-collared cloak and his defender scimitar Twinkle. Now, Drizzt picked up Twinkle near the start of THG, which begins in late summer, 1356 DR. And the first time the text ever definitively describes him as wearing a green cloak is the short story "DM", in early winter, late 1357 DR. (The first work ever to say that Drizzt wears a green cloak was his HOH entry, coinciding with the end of TCSh, though a green cloak on a brown-and-gray tundra makes no sense--a brown cloak, as Drizzt is described as wearing in the beginning of TCSh; or a gray cloak, as Drizzt is described as wearing in SOSw, makes more sense.)
So this would seem to narrow our window for the MBS down to between late summer of 1356 (beginning of THG), or even early winter of late 1357 DR (see "DM"), and spring of 1358 DR (beginning of TL).
Then we are told:
quote:
Drizzt sits at the right hand of Bruenor Battlehammer, dwarven King of Mithril Hall, along with the barbarian, Wulfgar, Bruenor's adopted human daughter, Catti-brie, and the halfling, Regis, returned from his downfall as a Guildmaster in faraway Calimport.
Times are good now for the beleaguered drow renegade, better than Drizzt has ever known. He has left a long legacy, though, a trail of defeated, if not dead, enemies that includes the survivors of his fallen house, other ambitious drow who know that to kill Drizzt is certainly to gain Lloth's highest favor, and one Artemis Entreri, a ruthless assassin who wants nothing more than to kill Drizzt in single, honest combat. (bold added; MBS, "THDUR":p.6)
"Regis" returns to MH in The Legacy, P1:C2. (Drizzt doesn't find the real Regis until P4:C17.) There is no mention of one of those "survivors of his fallen house", Dinin, having been turned into a drider by another such survivor, Vierna (as mentioned in TL, P1:C5). And of course, an "other ambitious drow" (most notably, Jarlaxle) and Entreri both feature prominently in this novel.
Therefore, this would ultimately seem to narrow our current time window to sometime specifically within TL, between P1:C2 and P1:C5--solidly within the spring of 1358 DR. QED  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 11 Nov 2008 18:59:18 |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 20:45:28
|
BEAST, just in case, if anyone knows the dates of something happening within Realmspace, it is The Hooded One*. The Drizzt novels are interesting, but IMHO the important info is the destruction of House Oblodra. It takes place, as we know, just ahead of the war waged on Mithral Hall and the Times of Troubles. It could only be a matter of months if not weeks with regards to dating the box, but I for one would take Ed's word ahead of anything else for my Realms.
* http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427 |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 11 Nov 2008 20:46:58 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 16:15:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
but I for one would take Ed's word ahead of anything else for my Realms.
-Especially when it comes to R.A. Salvatore, who is known for often disregarding things like exact dates and such. I have the information I need, though, so... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:14:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
BEAST, just in case, if anyone knows the dates of something happening within Realmspace, it is The Hooded One*.
Be that as it may, if anyone knows the dates of something happening within RAS Realmsspace, it is I. No one has qualified his knowledge of this yet to me using the info in the books.
I have, and continue to qualify my such knowledge. Check out my formulation above, then go back and check out the books for yourself and tell me where I'm wrong.
quote:
The Drizzt novels are interesting
Well, they're a whole lot more than that: they're the source material for most of what EG wrote in the MBS. You really shouldn't pat it on the head in such a quaint, condescending, dismissive manner. EG thought enough of it to base a lorebook on it. So you should think a little more of it, as well.
What's more, within the MBS itself EG repeatedly tells readers to consult the works of RAS for more details on the events being described therein. That is precisely what I have done, and continue to do. Have you?
quote:
but IMHO the important info is the destruction of House Oblodra.
Hmmm...if you indeed think that the destruction of House Oblodra is all that important, then maybe you should go back and re-read one of those "interesting" Drizzt novels: Siege of Darkness! 
The fall of Oblodra is dramatized in (and AFAIK, only in) SOD, P3:C14, in the autumn of 1358 DR:
- Late summer, 1358 :
- Errtu knows that the gods are quarreling (SOD, Pro.)
- Drizzt requests the ruby pendant from Regis as the summer is all but over (SOD, P1:C2)
- Autumn, 1358 :
- Autumn winds begin to blow (SOD, P1:C3)
- The Time of Troubles has begun (SOD, P2, P2:C7, etc.)
- The Time of Troubles has ended (SOD, P3:C12)
- Destruction of House Oblodra (SOD, P3:C14)
- Early winter, late 1358 :
- First winds of winter begin to blow (SOD, P4:C18)
I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with the MBS, but since you think it's so important, there you go.
quote:
It takes place, as we know, just ahead of the war waged on Mithral Hall and the Times of Troubles.
No, I do not think that's quite right. The destruction of House Oblodra actually took place after the TOT--not "just ahead" (see above).
EG does not even mention the TOT, the destruction of Oblodra, or the war against Mithral Hall in MBS (just as he doesn't mention the driderification of Dinin or the death of Vierna, as I noted above), so MBS would seem to predate the events of SOD altogether, and most of the events of TL. So in what way is Oblodra's fall relevant to our efforts to establish the time setting for the boxed set at all?
As I noted above, the only clue given in the MBS as to the current setting is the Drizzt entry, which says that his info is "up-to-date" (MBS, "THDUR":p.2) and "updated" (MBS, "THDUR":p.6). That entry gives us some info from TL, but stops short of confirming all of the events therein. Therefore, the kicker here would seem to be the events of TL--not SOD.
quote:
It could only be a matter of months if not weeks with regards to dating the box,
As I mentioned above, the relevant info here telling us about the current setting of MBS is the Drizzt entry, which tells us some of the events at the beginning of TL. Again:
- Beginning of spring, 1358 DR :
- "Spring Dawning" (TL, P1:C1)
- "That same afternoon" as P1:C1 (therefore likewise in the early spring), "Regis" returns to MH (MBS, "THDUR":p.6; TL, P1:C2). (Drizzt doesn't find the real Regis until P4:C17.)
- There is no mention (MBS, "THDUR":p.6) of Dinin being turned into a drider by Vierna (as described in TL, P1:C5).
- Still spring at the close of the book (TL, P5:C24)
- Early winter, late 1358 DR :
- Drizzt later feels guilt over the events of the previous months, including the "death" of Wulfgar (SOD, P4; see TL, P3:C19)
As the current, "up-to-date" (MBS, "THDUR":p.2&6) clues indicate to us in MBS, the current time setting would be the beginning of spring, the same year as the TOT and the fall of Oblodra (1358 DR). My guess would be the last tenday of Ches/March, as that would correspond to the dawn of spring.
The beginning of the last quarter of 1357 DR would be nowhere near.
quote:
but I for one would take Ed's word ahead of anything else for my Realms.
* http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427
That link isn't precise enough to be of any help: it points to an 88-page-long scroll. Please provide a more useful link.
I do not see how the MBS could possibly be set in the last quarter of 1357 DR, as the "up-to-date" events mentioned in the Drizzt entry had not occurred yet at that time. Last quarter of 1357 would be in the autumn--the "up-to-date" events take place in the spring.
Let it be clear that I am in no way insulting EG or anyone else here. All I am doing is calling for our determination of dates to actually be backed up by verifiable documentation from the books themselves, and for that determination to be coherent and consistent. The official, canonical dates are not.
The problem here is that no one has provided any foundation for believing EG's dating of the MBS--they simply cite his words, without any context (and without even giving a usable link).
I, OTOH, am giving you all kinds of verifiable context. Go back and check what I've been saying. It's all consistent; it all adds up.
Look, even the Sage of Shadowdale regularly admits that he doesn't get all the trivial details right, with great gregariousness and lightheartedness. Why do you hold up the words that Ed has said on a message board, without any context, as somehow being more above reproach than those of Elminster? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:47:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
but I for one would take Ed's word ahead of anything else for my Realms.
-Especially when it comes to R.A. Salvatore, who is known for often disregarding things like exact dates and such. I have the information I need, though, so...
Guys, the problem there is that it seems that EG is the one who seems to have been guilty of "disregarding things" here--not RAS. The "up-to-date", "updated" time clues within the MBS point to the spring (of the year 1358 DR, by my calculations)--not to the last quarter of any year.
Can you concede that EG might've maybe been guessing at a date for the campaign setting in the boxed set back in 1991/'92, before a lot of the subsequent Menzo lore had been worked out (including Drizzt's trip to Menzo in SN {c.1993}, and Menzoberranzan's activities during the TOT in SOD {c.1994})? Can you concede, as even Elminster himself does from time to time, that he might've guessed incorrectly?
As has already been pointed out, there is a clear discrepancy between the MBS and AGHOTR/TGHOTR regarding the dates of the House Do'Urden/House Hun'ett war. Ed's good, but he ain't perfect.
Again, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here by suggesting this. I am simply trying to show that the official dates do not add up, vis a vis their source novels. About half of the official dates for the works of RAS don't match the time clues given within the works of RAS. Why is that?
Rather than simply dismissing my chronological determinations out of hand, which are painstakingly derived from the time clues within the works of RAS, and copiously cited, it would be better to explain how the official dates are superior, more solid, more well-founded, and more reliable. But they're the ones that seem to be "disregarding things" here, so you'll have a hard time at that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:31:13
|
| Still takes Ed's word for this till he says differently and well, Beast, I think you are being a bit condescending to Ed and THO when both have answered the question in this thread. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Nov 2008 20:31:34 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:36:16
|
Sorry, Beast.
I buy all of your reasoning, yes. Thorough and painstaking, and from the point of view of any Realms gamer or reader, the best one can derive from reading the published lore.
But Ed doesn't "guess at" the dating of the boxed set he is (as a freelancer) assigned to write.
The dating was set by the Realms design team (Jeff Grubb, Jim Ward above him, Karen Boomgaarden [yes, that's how she spells her name, despite the published versions]), and the team (and Bob Salvatore, too, I believe) specifically discussed with Ed "the state of now" in Menzo that would pertain three-quarters of the way through 1357 DR.
If the book editors failed to catch some things in Bob's novels (including later ones) that "didn't quite mesh with that," that's bad. But that doesn't trump the design team's dating.
Ed told you the set date for the boxed set - - and that is its date. Not HIS invention or "guess."
Bob's fiction writing is at more serious variance with game lore in the much later SILVER MARCHES, as a result of Books (deliberately, I believe) not communicating with Games . . . and we all try to work out explanations.
Yet this Menzo box date is (with a little wiggle room built in) set, and (so far as I know) has never been challenged before.
Over to you for rebuttal, of course. 
And the reason I say that is: if the web of Realms consistency has been shifted by Bob's writings, and there isn't a compelling reason to cling to the original dating of the set, we might as well shift the "official" dating of the set.
Ed can, after all, check with all of the four principals I've mentioned - - AND the current WotC folks.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 12 Nov 2008 20:57:19 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:49:44
|
Not to disagree with Ed (whom I respect in the utmost), but 'canon' stuff, including dates, have been changed before because of conflicts (usually caused by novels).
Ergo, Ed may be correct that he wrote it with one certain date in mind, but it doesn't mean that 'newer lore' hasn't trumped that date, and some 'adjusting' is in order.
For instance, the Stats for Obould in the FRCG were made obsolete by RAS's novels - his stats should have been much higher by that point.
Hmmmmm.... RAS again....... <smirk> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2008 21:00:29 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:35:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, the Stats for Obould in the FRCG were made obsolete by RAS's novels - his stats should have been much higher by that point.
-Unless, of course, he was originally even weaker than the stats presented in the FRCS[/]i], which is, in theory possible. Of course, then one gets into the nitty-gritty, like comparing his stats to the feats performed by Obould in the Hunter's Blade trilogy, like tangoing with the Frost Giantess Gerti Orelsdottr, or reconciling the events detailed within the FRCS with the events that unfolded in the Hunter's Blade trilogy...Yeah, it's just better to not even go there, for all of our sakes.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmmm.... RAS again....... <smirk>
-Yup. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:00:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Still takes Ed's word for this till he says differently
You are, of course, free to make of the Realms what you will.
I am simply attempting to answer the OP's question as accurately as can be done, and to back up my answer, and to show why it is more well founded than others.
Still, we are all free to consider and disregard whatever we wish to.
quote:
and well, Beast, I think you are being a bit condescending to Ed and THO when both have answered the question in this thread.
In what way am I being condescending? I am being condescended to, if anything. In return for my facts, well-cited from the source materials, my commentary here has repeatedly been set aside in favor of someone else's simply because of his name. That's condescending to me.
All I have done (to no avail, BTW) is ask you guys to provide his rationale in making his time determination, and then I offered my own. That's not condescending towards EG in the slightest--unless you think asking a question is somehow condescending.
But what are we doing here at CK.com, if not asking questions, giving answers, and weighing those answers' relative worth?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sorry, Beast.
I buy all of your reasoning, yes. Thorough and painstaking, and from the point of view of any Realms gamer or reader, the best one can derive from reading the published lore.
Thank ye kindly for that.
quote:
But Ed doesn't "guess at" the dating of the boxed set he is (as a freelancer) assigned to write.
The dating was set by the Realms design team (Jeff Grubb, Jim Ward above him, Karen Boomgaarden [yes, that's how she spells her name, despite the published versions]), and the team (and Bob Salvatore, too, I believe) specifically discussed with Ed "the state of now" in Menzo that would pertain three-quarters of the way through 1357 DR.
When did they do this dating?
And on what basis?
A part of the reason there is a controversy here is that the MBS itself does not give its own date therein, as written in 1991 and published in 1992. That has to be determined by looking to outside sources, with later publication dates. I am recommending that we take into consideration the full body of later publications to come up with the most coherent, most consistent determination of the current date, here--not just one source, without any context.
Also, realize that MBS was published around the same time as TL, but before either SN or SOD. No one knew in 1991 just how long RAS was gonna take to eventually lumber around and drag his Drizzt saga up to the TOT and the year 1358 DR. In 1991, the current time of MBS could have been any time after the fall of House Do'Urden, as described at the end of Exi., and before the driderification of Dinin in the beginning of TL. It could've been one year before the TOT. It could've been 6 months. It could've been a whopping 10 whole years. I really doubt that anyone precisely knew.
So what outside sources (bases) did EG use to determine the official date for MBS? That's what I mean when I point out that no one has provided context for his determination. At some point (when?) somebody picked a date of 1357 DR (who?), and apparently EG even went so far as to say that it was the beginning of the last quarter of that year (where?). How exactly was this determined?
I have shown you why that determination doesn't add up, and why mine does.
RAS has readily admitted that he doesn't care much for time details himself, so I hardly think he was in on it to a great extent. I probably take the time clues within his works more seriously than he himself does!
quote:
If the book editors failed to catch some things in Bob's novels (including later ones) that "didn't quite mesh with that," that's bad. But that doesn't trump the design team's dating.
That makes no sense whatsoever. What Menzoberranzan are we talking about here, then? What House Do'Urden? What House Oblodra? If not for the ones described in the novels of RAS, then what are we talking about here?
Everything should be tied back to the source novels, unless a clearly compelling reason is provided to do otherwise. No one has done so, here.
I readily admit that EG may have had something interesting in mind that led him to diverge from my calculation of the date for MBS. Maybe the bulk of the MBS really is indeed set in late 1357 DR, and only the Drizzt portions are tied in to TL and 1358 DR. I suppose that that is possible, and I have to allow for that. But that sure sounds like an awfully schizoid way to date a book, doesn't it? (Sounds very much like the recent A Reader's Guide to RAS's The Legend of Drizzt, or the ARG!, as I like to call it. )
quote:
Ed told you the set date for the boxed set
Again...where did he tell me this? We need specific cites here, people.
quote:
- - and that is its date. Not HIS invention or "guess."
And again...how was that determined?
Unless someone can provide a detailed foundation for his determination of the date, I do not see how anyone could so sweepingly declare that his dating of the book was anything more than an invention or guess--well-intentioned, educated, and all.
quote:
Bob's fiction writing is at more serious variance with game lore in the much later SILVER MARCHES, as a result of Books (deliberately, I believe) not communicating with Games . . . and we all try to work out explanations.
I keep hearing that, and I have repeatedly asked for insight on that here at CK.com. But no one has helped me out there. I really would like to understand more about the discrepancies that you guys have found, especially as to RAS and the Silver Marches lore (maybe in a new scroll).
quote:
Yet this Menzo box date is (with a little wiggle room built in) set, and (so far as I know) has never been challenged before.
Over to you for rebuttal, of course.
Apparently there has never been as anal-retentive, obsessive, and bold of a RAS fan here on CK.com before, then!
I redirect you to the time clues that I have provided earlier in this scroll, and especially to the only info in the MBS which tells us a thing about its "up-to-date" or "updated" time setting: the early info in the novel TL. That novel is clearly set entirely in the spring, and apparently in the same year as the TOT: 1358 DR. Therefore, there just does not seem to be any way that the MBS could accurately be dated in the last quarter of 1357 DR. I don't see how you can "wiggle" 'the beginning of the last quarter of 1357 DR' out of 'the beginning of the spring of the same year as the TOT'.
That is, unless we were to completely disregard all of the Drizzt portions in MBS and their mentions of "up-to-date" and "updated" information. But if we were to do that, who would be "disregarding things" then? 
quote:
And the reason I say that is: if the web of Realms consistency has been shifted by Bob's writings, and there isn't a compelling reason to cling to the original dating of the set, we might as well shift the "official" dating of the set.
Ed can, after all, check with all of the four principals I've mentioned - - AND the current WotC folks.
love,
THO
Agreed. In my own small way, I guess that's what I am trying to do, here. I am suggesting the apparently radical concept that we modify the official timeline of RAS-related subjects to more accurately match the time clues within RAS-related works.
In my siggy is my comprehensive RAS Realms chrono, which I have attempted to make as accurate as is humanly possible. I have taken extremely detailed notes from all of the RAS works themselves, as well as quite a few of the lorebooks from other authors. It's an ongoing project to insert all of those notes into the online chrono, but the dates that I have posted are based directly on my detailed notes. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 23:02:21
|
| I'm beginning to wonder if it's not time to close this thread... We have word from the person who wrote the set as to when it was set. That's the official date. And as the purpose of this thread was to find that date, I don't see why there is a need to keep arguing about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 23:19:04
|
Indeed.
And for what it's worth, I don't think BEAST is "arguing" as such... merely presenting his own thoughts on the subject. Yes, we've had Ed's own direct comment on the matter. But sometimes scribes feel the need to elaborate on their own workings for particular subjects. And BEAST is quite correct in suggesting that we do often discuss canon answers, even when they've been presented by designers/writers here.
It happens all the time in Ed's scroll after all.
...
In terms of this discussion though, I think it's best for all to simply move on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 00:36:47
|
LOL.
My only point was that 'things change', is all, and I meant no disrespect to anyone, and both Beast (through his rather excellent research) and Ed are both correct. Ed's answer is based on what he knew for a FACT at the time - plain and simple.
I learned back in grade-school that Betsy Ross sewed the American Flag during the Revolution, and I took it as fact (after all, it was in my history book). Now we find out years later that the entire story was fabricated by her Grandson.
Facts change, life goes on, and it doesn't mean anyone is wrong (except for Betsy Ross's Grandson).
How about we discuss how Amaunator was really Lathander the whole time, when the two co-existed for a short while? Now there's a really fun anachronism in FR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 01:47:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about we discuss how Amaunator was really Lathander the whole time, when the two co-existed for a short while? Now there's a really fun anachronism in FR.
You better go start a thread on this subject now then. It could be very interesting.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 02:47:23
|
LOL -
That was just a 'defusing' tactic.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 09:33:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We have word from the person who wrote the set as to when it was set. That's the official date. And as the purpose of this thread was to find that date
I did not know originally that the OP's purpose was only to ask the official date. I thought the question was meant to find an answer that made sense. That's why I went further.
quote:
I don't see why there is a need to keep arguing about it.
Mostly because a lot of us apparently find it interesting to discuss the discrepancies that pop up here and there, and this particular publication provides a nice opportunity to do so. As Dagniron said, "The drama is just so juicy, though!"
I was trying to appeal to people's reason in advocating my answer: preponderance of the evidence, consistency between data points, etc. Meanwhile, most of the others seem to simply be <appealing to authority>. As that is a logical fallacy, I tried to make the most reasonable presentation I knew how, in order to sway them. Ultimately that's because I care about truth and reason, I guess.
And winning debates, I suppose...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed.
And for what it's worth, I don't think BEAST is "arguing" as such... merely presenting his own thoughts on the subject. Yes, we've had Ed's own direct comment on the matter. But sometimes scribes feel the need to elaborate on their own workings for particular subjects.
Basically, yeah. But I was trying to do more than just strut my stuff like a peacock, or show off my personal research.
I was attempting to answer the OP's question with the best assortment of verifiable facts and coherent reasoning that I knew how, rather than just one data point (and hearsay, at that). "BESSo (Because Ed Says So)" isn't really much of an answer...
Not to open another can of worms, but I'm not a religious guy largely because I don't really accept many arguments based entirely on authority. I need more than that. That's why I was trying to provide more, myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
both Beast (through his rather excellent research) and Ed are both correct.
*nods to Markustay*
quote:
Ed's answer is based on what he knew for a FACT at the time - plain and simple.
I take minor exception to that, in terms of the definition of a "fact". A fact is something verifiable or falsifiable by external sources. How could EG verify the date of the MBS in 1991, since everything in it was pretty vague and ambiguous as to time details? Even the sole specific time clue (the passage mentioning the events in TL) had no verifiable date yet, at that time. The best anyone could do then, in 1991, was arbitrarily pull a date out of Jarlaxle's great plumed hat.
That's not a fact. It's an opinion. It's an educated guess. It's informed conjecture.
But as more works have rolled off the presses, we've been given more external sources to reference. Now we really do have facts to relate the MBS to, in order to determine the current time with a decent level of precision. And that's what I've been trying to do here.
OK, enough splitting hairs...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm beginning to wonder if it's not time to close this thread...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
In terms of this discussion though, I think it's best for all to simply move on.
I ask you to please not close it just yet. I'll leave off for now, but there may be just a bit more new info in the near future (see below).
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And BEAST is quite correct in suggesting that we do often discuss canon answers, even when they've been presented by designers/writers here.
It happens all the time in Ed's scroll after all.
You have inspired me to <ask him myself>, and to specifically bring his attention to this controversy raised here, and to ask him to reconcile all of the conflicting data points. What is needed is something more than just a simple date, but rather, a calculation that takes into consideration all of the available facts in a coherent, consistent fashion. So I have asked him to do just that for us.
I shall take my leave, now. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 09:47:13
|
Rightio ... this is not about who is right or who is wrong. Why not agree to disagree on the relevance of some sources. Sure, BEAST has listed what is in the novels and how this can be put into the time-frame. It is, as people have intimated, a general consensus on here that RAS's novel are not 100% on track when it comes to both rules and dates. Be that as it may, another sourcebook, or rather campaign does give us a definite timing of the Times of Troubles, For Duty & Deity (published in 1998, four years after Siege of Darkness).
It says on page 3 ...
quote:
The Time of Troubles occurred in the summer and fall of the year 1358 Dalereckoning (DR).
Ed wrote the Menzoberranzan - box long before Siege of Darkness and all, though the Time of Troubles event was at that time already described in 1989's Shadowdale. There is no doubt in my mind that had it been of any relevance, Ed would have included it in the box. Unless I am mistaken, Menzo as such was RAS' brainchild and he afterwards took the liberty to describe the ToT as he saw fit in his later Menzo novels. As in: if anything, RAS changed the story-/timeline of how and when the ToT affected Menzoberranzan. The box as such though, as Ed said, is dated pre-ToT. He'd know, since he created it 1992 after the ToT (1989) novels and before the novelization of the events surrounding the Battle of Keeper's Dale et al by RAS (1994).
These are just the facts how I get them out of the sources. Not claiming that this is right, of course. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 13 Nov 2008 09:51:49 |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 15:35:43
|
| I applaud your excellent research BEAST. Keep up the good work. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 20:07:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I applaud your excellent research BEAST. Keep up the good work.
Danke, Brian.
*nods*
*holds tongue to avoid continuing the argument with Zanan, for now* |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 20:32:49
|
-Wow that was a fun read. Thanks for the lively debate.
BRIMSTOME  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 18:51:39
|
THO posted <Ed's response>. Have a look-see.
To summarize, it looks like it breaks down into 4 main parts:
- An ejumacation into the design & writing process
- Clarification that the 1357 DR official date was prescribed by the design team headed into the project, and not his date at all. They asked him to write the boxed set from that temporal point of view, so he did. So this isn't really a matter of "Ed said so," but rather, "The design team said so," and Ed went along.
- Ed also agreed that, with the benefit of a hellacious amount of hindsight and a mountain more of novels and lorebooks to cross-reference, my calculated date makes more sense--now, in 2008.
- Lastly, he also pointed out the difficulty of rectifying this conflict between the official dates and subsequently re-calculated dates, without positing a solution.
With that in mind, here are a few observations:
1) Always good to learn about the process. Context, context, context!
2) All of you guys who have been preferring the official date simply BESSo (Because Ed Said So) should realize that it wasn't exactly him, but rather, THO relaying what Ed relayed from the design team. They are the ones who said so. (It's good to disengage and actually listen, occasionally; so I shall slap the back of my own head on this one! )
But again, I have to ask, on what basis did they say so? RAS had never inserted any clear time clues into his works that could pin his novels or short stories down to any particular year before the novel SOD. There was simply no way to know when TL was set in 1991. It seems really premature for the design team to tell Ed that the timeframe for the MBS was a certain year and season, when they then inserted a blurb from a chronological question mark: the open-ended novel TL. It was almost a sort of Achilles heel to the project, undermining and usurping their precise date with its imprecision, and with the fact that it would eventually end up in the same year as the Time of Troubles--not their intended specific year.
And this is not an Ed-vs.-Bob thing, either. It highlights a problem with the process--not the people.
3) Of course it feels good to hear Ed agree, too, that my chronological calculations, now, make more sense than the official dates, then. But I shall resist the urge to gloat any further about that.
Instead, I would ask that anybody who's bothered to follow this discussion this far please consider the internal facts and the reasoning within my chronology as the main strengths in its favor, rather than Ed's or Brian's or THO's or anybody else's praise. My chrono is worth checking out (and maybe even worth other fans duplicating, with other authors' writings) because it works, moreso than Because Ed Says So. It would be just as much a shame to embrace something due to a mere appeal to authority, now, as it was to dismiss that thing due to a mere appeal to authority, before.
4) Lastly, what to do about all of this? How do we rectify this conflict between well-intentioned dates handed down in advance from design teams, vs. re-calculated dates resulting from hindsight and new evidence down the road? What's the process to address this? And how much would it be worth to do so?
Whether the powers-that-be ever change the official dates or not, how should askant independent research like this best be handled?
Brian: suggestions? (I shall definitely continue with my own chrono project, explaining all the little time clues and what-not.)
Again, it seems really bizarre for a design team to impose a specific date in advance on anything related to what RAS writes, considering that they seem to give him so much leeway and wiggling room in so many other ways. Most of his Realms works are written with chronological ambiguity, so the team seems to be at odds with him when they try to imperially impose a greater degree of precision on his works than they warrant.
a) If they're gonna try to say that his works have a specific date before the text of his works actually tie into to any particular Realms event that has a well-established date (like the Time of Troubles), then it would seem that they should impose more chronological control on his entire writing process, all the way through, to make sure that the internal time clues actually coincide with their chosen dates. (They seem to be doing this with his latest mini-series, "Transitions".)
b) OTOH, if they're going to continue to give him all this leeway, then it would seem more advisable for them never to announce any specific dates for his works before he gives specific time clues within the works. Just give a vague time setting as a placeholder, such as a decade (1350's DR), or even a mere question mark, until the text warrants announcing a greater degree of chronological precision. (I believe this is exactly how TSR and WOTC have officially handled the time placement of RAS's short story "The First Notch".)
Now, I'm not gonna go beating on WOTC's doors demanding anything. But I will still answer chronological questions to the best of my ability using references from the works themselves that add up, rather than official dates that don't. And, as I told Kuje earlier in this scroll, readers are certainly free to do with my answers whatever they will--nothing new, there.
I just hope that no one else implies that an official date is right simply because person X says so, no matter how much the text within the books say differently. In that case, the official date ain't right--it's just official. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 21:14:32
|
Ahem, BEAST?
There's a bit more you should know.
Bob, and Ed, and all of the early Realms writers, tended to SPECIFICALLY try to shie away from dating things in their fiction (at TSR's request) so as to give TSR, other creatives writing future stuff for TSR, and Dungeon Masters (not to mention Bob, Ed, Doug Niles, Jeff Grubb and his wife Kate Novak, and other novelists at work in the Realms at the time), as much "wiggle room" as possible.
This may well have been a mistake, over time (and you, coming to things later, have the built-in advantage of hindsight, yes?), as inconsistencies piled up, but it was what ALL of the parties involved decided was best, at the time.
Why did the design team set a date for the set? Probably because they wanted to have something firm for themselves to work with, from then on. But when you say it seems "bizarre," I'd disagree. The design team were employees, assigned to do this as their job. To NOT do so would lose them that job, and deeming it an odd way to do things seems, to me, about the same as regarding Nike as bizarre for adopting their swoosh logo, or Apple deciding to market the iPod. If a company owns and controls a thing, they can do what they will with it.
Some company commercial decisions many consumers hate, and turn away from the product. Some design decisions I'm sure we all think coud have been done better. Yet this particular one was probably, at the time, trying to do the right thing: start to pin down a chronology.
After all, the games folks were receiving Ed's detailed campaign logs (which formed quite a large part of one of the books included in the original Realms boxed set [FR0, aka "The Old Gray Box"]), and being impressed by the feeling of living realism Ed's world had, that beat everything else they'd seen up until then hands down . . . so they probably thought keeping a detailed timeline and fixing products on it was a Good Thing, and something they should do.
The problem was, not all fiction writers (and their editors) and not all designers played along, later, usually because they had too little time (or even lack of the earlier products, to examine) to do all the research necessary to make sure there were no inconsistencies. Yet does that make trying to date anything at all a bad idea? Or just bad execution of a good idea?
Both Gary Gygax and Ed have said and written that without accurate timekeeping you can't have a true campaign, just a sequence of adventures. I suspect they said this because they know from personal experience how quickly (and far) adrift a DM can get if he/she doesn't get and stay specific about times . . .
Anyway, that's my view, from the standpoint of playing in Ed's campaign for literally decades. With so much done, "in-game," it all blurs together if you don't have an accurate and detailed log to refer back to.
As for the question of why the company publishing Realms products, and all the peopele, staff and freelance, didn't consistently adhere to the same way of doing things, well, the company changed, almost all the staff personnel changed, and many of the freelancers (Ed and Bob are exceptions) changed, too. So did editions of the game, PREDICATED on different approaches and philosophies to the game!
As for me, I don't even fit into the underwear I wore to Ed's early play sessions, let alone still want to wear them. These days, I prefer . . . well, I'll let you fill in the mental digression.
Over to you . . .
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Dale-Reckoning Date of the Menzoberranzan Box Set
