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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 21:27:36
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And to be honest... most of us DON'T try to 'clarify' any of RAS's writing - we just chalk a lot of it up to 'poetic license' and ignore the inconsistencies.
The stuff Drizzt does in the greater scheme of things Realmsian is inconsequential, unlike some of the other mistakes in those 'RSE' novels I could think of but won't name out of consideration. 
What I'd like to know is how the heck does Drizzt age backwards? thats a neat trick... I wouldn't mind doing that for a decade or so, myself. 
I'm waiting for the next Lockwood cover to show Drizzt with a pacifier in his mouth.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2008 21:28:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 21:34:48
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I agree with MT. I find that I can easily ignore the inconsistencies with my 'suspension of disbelief' in effect.
Of course it might have something to do with being a former comic book junkie. I mean, Spidey's only in his late twenties after over 40 years in print. And Batman's looking good for being over 100. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 23:07:50
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They did make Batman 'decrepit-looking' in the The Dark Knight series and the Batman Beyond cartoon - both of which I enjoyed.
I don't recall an 'Old Spidey' anywhere though (there are old versions of Ironman(?) and Hulk I have seen recently).
You Know, now that I no longer live with my kids, I don't have an excuse to watch cartoons anymore.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2008 23:08:12 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 00:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't recall an 'Old Spidey' anywhere though (there are old versions of Ironman(?) and Hulk I have seen recently).
Earth-X series depicted all the Marvel heroes later in life.
quote:
Wikipedia
Peter Parker was publicly revealed as Spider-Man and retired, figuring he was no longer needed in this world of powers. He has become the rotund model of his late Uncle Ben.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 00:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't recall an 'Old Spidey' anywhere though (there are old versions of Ironman(?) and Hulk I have seen recently).
There's been one or two interpretations of an "older Spider-Man" published previously [one was a What If? tale as I recall]. As for Iron Man, well, the most recent would be Iron Man: The End.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 08:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ahem, BEAST?
There's a bit more you should know.
Bob, and Ed, and all of the early Realms writers, tended to SPECIFICALLY try to shie away from dating things in their fiction (at TSR's request) so as to give TSR, other creatives writing future stuff for TSR, and Dungeon Masters (not to mention Bob, Ed, Doug Niles, Jeff Grubb and his wife Kate Novak, and other novelists at work in the Realms at the time), as much "wiggle room" as possible.
This may well have been a mistake, over time (and you, coming to things later, have the built-in advantage of hindsight, yes?), as inconsistencies piled up, but it was what ALL of the parties involved decided was best, at the time.
Yeppers. I've noticed that those little "Year of the..." taglines weren't so common back in the day. And Bob has made it pretty clear about his own works, too. In that ARG book recently published, he reiterated that he's never really been big on dates and timekeeping.
He successfully avoided putting any clear time clues within his writings, as far as connections to major external dated Realms events go, up until Siege of Darkness. Up until that point, he was playing with all kinds of wiggle and jiggle. But at that point, it basically locked everything in.
The prob is that once that happened, the official timeline didn't change with it. The original official dates have basically been retained, even though SOD was published nearly 15 years ago.
And either nobody noticed, or cared. So it then begs the question, why bother with all that precision in the first place, if they weren't gonna track it better than that? If they were imposing that imprecision on inherently imprecise books because they thought a firm timeline was really that important, then why didn't they match the timeline to the time clues within the books? Saying that they imposed precision because they thought it was important, but they didn't think it was important enough to follow-up and double-check those dates...that's what I consider bizarre or odd.
quote:
"Why does this bank have these poles and fuzzy ropes out in front of the tellers?"
"Those help to keep customers in line, and it's important to us to keep things organized in the lobby, sir."
"But you're just letting people go straight up to the windows, right past all the fuzzy ropes. How important could it be to you? So I have to ask, what are these fuzzy ropes still doing here?"
"Sir, it's our bank, and we'll do what we want."
Oh well. I care, and with my hindsight-a-plenty, I shall keep working on it. FWIW.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 10:06:11
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Well, there are not that many authors these days who do not keep a close look at the timeline. Some even give you exact dates. I'll get the new Orc King book for revision these next few days and can check whether RAS does this too.
In the end, it is up to the OP whether s/he takes the base timeline intended by Ed in the Menzo box or the ... let's say garbled one of the novels which have been published later. And I for one don't think that s/he cares about a few months here and there anyway. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 18:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, there are not that many authors these days who do not keep a close look at the timeline. Some even give you exact dates.
-Indeed, one of my biggest frustrations is the lack of dates in many 'earlier' stories. Makes researching a pain in the butt. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 09:39:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I'll get the new Orc King book for revision these next few days and can check whether RAS does this too.
Due to some unidentified mystic force, TOK clearly states a named Realms year within its text. And TPK gives a clear number of years after the events in TOK. So things look pretty transparent with the "Transitions" mini-series, so far.
[TOK & TPK spoiler]TPK begins in the autumn, four years after TOK, which was dated within its own text in The Year of Wild Magic. This would mean that TPK begins in the year 1376 DR. 1372 DR + 4 years = 1376 DR
It also tells us that the Battlehammer dwarves went through Mirabar the last time (which was dramatized in The Thousand Orcs) five years before. That would indicate that TTO occurred in the year 1371 DR--rather than WOTC's official date of 1370 DR. 1376 DR - 5 years = 1371 DR
If you read the time clues within "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", it's pretty clear that TTO is supposed to take place in the spring & summer, and The Lone Drow is supposed to take place in the summer, of the same year as The Two Swords. TOK quotes the epitaph of Delly Curtie (who died in TTS), citing the year 1371 DR, . Altogether, these time clues would indicate that the entirety of "THBT" took place in 1371 DR. I'm not sure why WOTC took the route of splitting the books of that trilogy up over two separate years.
Now, I have been hearing that the sequencing of "THBT" conflicts significantly with that of the Silver Marches lorebook, but no one has spelled out these conflicts to me. I do not know if this retcon of the date for TTO (and by extension TLD) helps with that or not. (I know that the lorebook contradicts stuff from earlier RAS novels about the characters Bruenor and Wulfgar, too, from my own research, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were chrono inconsistencies, as well.)[/spoiler]
Point being, yeah, RAS and/or Phil Athans do seem to be trying to instill a greater degree of chronological precision in RAS's books now. Most of his recent short stories have been dated with taglines (though "Bones and Stones" still seems to suffer from that official connection with 1370 DR), and TOK gave a named year within its text.
There's no telling if something else (maybe even Bob himself!) is gonna come along and pull the rug out from underneath all of this careful precision. If this whole discussion has clarified anything, it's the truth of the adage "Best laid plans..."
quote:
And I for one don't think that s/he cares about a few months here and there anyway.
Good point. This scroll made a good enough platform to use as a soapbox on the official-vs.-researched timeline dates, but with this particular publication, the disparity is pretty minor.
With other publications, however...
Oh, and Zanan, regarding one of your earlier posts about how it seemed that RAS's description of the timing of the Time of Troubles seemed to contradict that from the official lorebooks, I think maybe you may have misunderstood RAS's timing based on my shorthand way of summarizing the time clues within RAS's novel SOD. But it seems pretty clear that Bob effectively acknowledged that the TOT was taking place in some form or another from summer through autumn, 1358 DR. The characters didn't address the situation by the formal title until well after the autumn season had begun, but Bob still included telltale signs that the situation was in effect long before that. Hope that clears up that apparent contradiction.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 16 Nov 2008 09:50:35 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 10:28:23
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It would be a good idea not solely working with abbreviations of the titles. For example "TPK" instantly expands to "Total Party Kill" rather than some book name in my head*. Furthermore, quite a number of novels would have the same abbrevation too, e.g. Shadows of Darkness (Shadows of the Avatar I) and Siege of Darkness. Can't say anything about The Orc King as yet (haven't read the spoiler either, for obvious reasons), though I would expect that 14 years after Siege of Darkness and a much condensed timeframe with many important events happening simultaneously that all novels out these days are settled in this timeframe.
*Only literally, of course. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 16 Nov 2008 10:29:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 17:13:30
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Ed also explains in his annotations in The Annotated Elminster that he was in the habit of constantly dating stuff using the Year of... prefix, rather then any actual numerical date, since different regions have different names for different years, and thereby he wouldn't accidently conflict with something another writer or even he himself wrote.
In fact, IIRC, he was slightly upset when they started doing very specific timelines and came out with the roll of years - thats exactly when we began to get all of the 'lore discrepencies' which eventually led up to 4e FR. Ed knew from his own home campaign that leaving things vague was the best way to build a world, because it left you plenty of breathing room. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2008 17:49:34 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 08:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
It would be a good idea not solely working with abbreviations of the titles. For example "TPK" instantly expands to "Total Party Kill" rather than some book name in my head*. Furthermore, quite a number of novels would have the same abbrevation too, e.g. Shadows of Darkness (Shadows of the Avatar I) and Siege of Darkness.
Yeah, I ordinarily try to spell out book titles early on in a post, but it doesn't always work out that way. (In the above case, I did it within the spoiler--sorry.) I've come up with my own extended abbreviations for those of RAS's works that are pretty similar. I would definitely go that route if I were mixing up similar abbreviated titles from different authors, too. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 16:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, IIRC, he was slightly upset when they started doing very specific timelines and came out with the roll of years - thats exactly when we began to get all of the 'lore discrepencies' which eventually led up to 4e FR. Ed knew from his own home campaign that leaving things vague was the best way to build a world, because it left you plenty of breathing room.
-Hey, it's a good thing that timelines and such began rolling out. You of all people should know how annoying and (dare I say?) crappy products are when they don't include concrete timelines. Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, I'm looking at you. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 17:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Hey, it's a good thing that timelines and such began rolling out. You of all people should know how annoying and (dare I say?) crappy products are when they don't include concrete timelines. Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, I'm looking at you.
I'm sorry, the OA adventures were very detailed in the history and timelines of the regions they were a part of. In fact, I think they may have been the most detailed published in 2nd Edition, IMHO. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 17:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm sorry, the OA adventures were very detailed in the history and timelines of the regions they were a part of. In fact, I think they may have been the most detailed published in 2nd Edition, IMHO.
-I did not say the Oriental Adventures modules. I said Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, which does not contain within it a comprehensive timeline of Kara-Tur, or of the individual nations that can be found there. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 17:57:48
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| The Kara-Tur products are filled with tons of juicy tidbits and lore, but the problem was in it's organization, or complete lack there-of. This was a problem with many pre-3e products (no set formats for presentation), but it reaches epic roportions with the eastern material. For instance, the boxed set refers to the timeline several times... yet does not include any. Unless you have some of the modules with he history in them, you can easily get lost. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 18:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm sorry, the OA adventures were very detailed in the history and timelines of the regions they were a part of. In fact, I think they may have been the most detailed published in 2nd Edition, IMHO.
-I did not say the Oriental Adventures modules. I said Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, which does not contain within it a comprehensive timeline of Kara-Tur, or of the individual nations that can be found there.
Ahh. My apologies! I misunderstood the reference to be Kara-Tur products as a whole and not just that set. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 18:48:22
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| -No, no, no. As a whole, Kara-Tur has a lot going for it. The problem, as was said, is that if you want to find it, you really have to go digging. Things aren't where they should be, and things are scattered over the course of 11 books or so (8 adventures, Oriental Adventures, Kara-Tur: Monstrous Compendium and Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Dale-Reckoning Date of the Menzoberranzan Box Set
