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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
The 3rd Edition Cormyr Supplement. The 3rd Edition Faiths of Faerún. Both would be good.
At the current time, Wizards of the Coast is not interested in articles set in the past. What I'm soliciting here are suggestions for D&D Insider articles set in the current 4th-Edition time period. Cormyr has already been covered in Dragon 365, but a series of articles on the gods and their churches seems very likely.
In order to not further derail that thread, I figured I'd post my reply here.
Brian here asked for feedback as to what people wanted to see from WoTC regarding the Realms. I gave my suggestion for a Cormyr book set post Death of the Dragon, and a Faiths of Faerún, something I know realms fans have wanted for at least 8 years, since the launch of 3rd Edition.
It is a shame then that they don't want to do this. Clearly, my English Pounds are no longer wanted by WoTC. This is a shame. I would have bought those two products in a heartbeat, but the designers don't want to provide them. Ah well.
I do, however, find one thing just a bit rich. We fans have been asking for things from WoTC for at least 8 years. How much of it have we seen made? Very little. Instead we see the trashing of the setting, much to the disgust of a lot of the fans here on Candlekeep.
And now? Now we are asked for Feedback! That's fantastic. Ignore requests for 8 years, trash the setting, then, finally, ask us hardcore fans for feedback. I'm afraid that just doesn't wash with me. We've been giving you feedback for the past 8 years, feedback you not only ignored but did exactly the opposite of.
When you want to get back to publishing the Realms, I'll be the first to buy. Till then.. 
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Edited by - Uzzy on 03 Oct 2008 17:27:27
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 14:30:53
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I think it may be that they've seen our reactions and are worried that we will in fact stop buying which will, in turn, make the Forgotten Realms line unprofitable (read: soon-to-be-cancelled). They don't want to lose the FR fanbase as there's so many of us, therefore, we are being polled on what we want to see so that we will go out and buy more products.
However, Wizards now has a strict policy in place. There won't be any turning back and no amount of whining, begging or threats will change that. If you want a 3e supplement then write your own, because you won't be getting one from Wizards.
The reason they didn't heed us for those 8 years was simply because FR products were still selling incredibly well despite the complaints. Production was in control of the marketing department rather than the fans.
I actually respect them for sticking to policy even in the face of losing out on such an amount of revenue. Considering the policy they've got in place, they did incredibly well with the 4e Realms. It's just a shame that we disagree with the policy. As I say though, no amount of disagreement on our part will change things in that respect.
Quick edit: Might I also suggest that all the negative comments that have been written in the feedback scroll be placed in this one instead? You've been asked 3 or 4 times in the feedback scroll to not make such comments, yet some of you ignore the warnings. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Oct 2008 14:33:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 16:12:25
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Uzzy said: "...but the designers don't want to provide them."
Eh, maybe or maybe not. The designers probably aren't the only voices at the table when decisions like that are made.
Anyway, "cancellation" of the Forgotten Realms line simply isn't gonna happen. Individual products within the brand line, and yeah, maybe even whole categories within the brand (video games, RPGs), will see changes, reductions, expansions and so on over the life of the property. But as long as the novel line continues to sell as well as it does, the Realms are here to stay as an active "property."
And as long as even a few of us still read and play and think and write in the Realms, they're here to stay as a living world.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 03 Oct 2008 17:12:44 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 16:59:37
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Okay, let's talk novels then. Elaine doesn't have any plans for new Realms novels. Ed's got novels, but (although I love them more at the same level of Tolkien) they do not crack the Bestseller list. RAS does crack the list with almost every Drizzt novel, but I'm not too sure how the Drizzt books will work in 4th Edition (only time will tell).
We have a lot of 'newer' authors that are writing some great stuff, but again, they aren't cracking the best-seller list with frequency. And they're money-making novels have been the 'Trilogy/Best of' standard (first two parts, then a 'Realms of', then the conclusion) and have been RSE. Now they've completely blown up the old Realms, so what will the RSE be going forward to write about? How can they keep topping the last?
As for the designers, yes the higher-ups have a good say in what's produced and they are only looking at the financial numbers for the game books. And, as SKR once wrote, crunchy sells. So lore get pushed to the wayside. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:03:48
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Considering my poor writing skills in english, Uzzy found a way to express what i was struggling to write for a day or two. Thank you for that Uzzy.
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
We have a lot of 'newer' authors that are writing some great stuff, but again, they aren't cracking the best-seller list with frequency. And they're money-making novels have been the 'Trilogy/Best of' standard (first two parts, then a 'Realms of', then the conclusion) and have been RSE. Now they've completely blown up the old Realms, so what will the RSE be going forward to write about? How can they keep topping the last?
Well, almost no books are "bestsellers" (which is itself a bit of slippery concept). Bob Salvatore's books are outliers for gaming fiction (for sf/fantasy in general, in fact) because hordes of people love his marquee character.
The "three and one" schedule you describe, with a mass market paperback anthology sharing the trade dress with a mass market trilogy of single-authored novels appears to be continuing into the fourth edition era with the ongoing Undead series.
Forgotten Realms books sell great when compared to other mass market paperbacks in general--not just sf/fantasy, but when compared to all original mmpbs.
And don't forget that most of the people who pick up the novels will barely even notice the hundred year jump, much less a change in the background rules systems which many of them are completely unaware lays under the fiction they're reading. As is true with most successful gaming fiction lines, the novels are the market leaders, not the gaming materials.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:20:49
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LOL - its almost like they want us to give them a list... so they could do the OPPOSITE. 
hashimashadoo makes a good point about them being adamant about NOT turning back. But think about it... most of the things they have changed were things FORMER designers came up with, and they turned around and changed them when they became in charge.
What that means, basically, is that all we have to do is wait for the next batch of guys to get in charge! It doesn't matter WHAT they say their 'plan' is, because history has shown us that the 'new kids on the block' always throw out the old plan and come up with a new one.
So don't let their policies annoy you - they are only in place as long as the guys who made them are in place.
And if we all stop buying the products, that won't be very long at all, eh?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Oct 2008 19:23:10 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I'm afraid that just doesn't wash with me. We've been giving you feedback for the past 8 years, feedback you not only ignored but did exactly the opposite of.
For instance, not long before the new Realms became public I wrote a pretty thorough, quite impassioned bit about why a 10-year timeline jump would be so wrongheaded. Rich Baker, at least, has read quite a bit about what I want. 'Opposite' is not too strong a word for much of the direction they're going in instead.quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The reason they didn't heed us for those 8 years was simply because FR products were still selling incredibly well despite the complaints. Production was in control of the marketing department rather than the fans.
There are all sorts of mysteries about 3E publication decisions. Why no regional sourcebooks for the most popular regions? Why adventures tied so directly to the controversial ongoing timeline? Not to mention the several blatant inconsistencies between those decisions and some of the expressed reasoning for Realms-2008.quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And, as SKR once wrote, crunchy sells. So lore get pushed to the wayside.
That's not what Sean wrote! The point of that tale is higher-ups thought it was that simple. (The much more likely reason for lower sales of Lords of Darkness is that it was aimed only at DMs, though that opens a whole other question.) I think it's now pretty well realized that it isn't. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 20:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And, as SKR once wrote, crunchy sells. So lore get pushed to the wayside.
That's not what Sean wrote! The point of that tale is higher-ups thought it was that simple. (The much more likely reason for lower sales of Lords of Darkness is that it was aimed only at DMs, though that opens a whole other question.) I think it's now pretty well realized that it isn't.
Oops, just realized how that sounded when you pointed it out. I meant to say what he 'wrote about how they the gaming books popularity, crunchy sells.'
Does that make more sense? I was actually trying to imply exactly what you were saying. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 23:07:40
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Regarding Lords of Darkness ... its problem was twofold, first, it was essentially a DMs only book, second, it was essentially published just after its direct AD&D predecessor Cloak & Dagger, still one of the finest of the late AD&D books. Much info was more or less C&P and people did not need it that badly.
As for the topic ... you could get the impression that the high-ups at WotC sat in their ivory tower plotting the 4E Realms on their own, despite what filtered through from the fanbase, and none more so than at their very own WizBoards. Paizo, on the other hand, got to the fanbase straight away when producing Pathfinder, not just with the setting, but the rules too. By now though, as the German saying goes, the child has fallen into the well - with regards to 4E Realmspace.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Greenwoods, Boyds, Reids, and James' of this world will give it their all to make the Realms as good (IMHO) as they were before, but it should not have come to that in the first place. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 01:20:25
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There are plenty of similar American/English sayings like that, but I think 'Biblical' is more universal -
"You reap what you sow"
So in other words, when you approach a design with an uncaring, apathetic attitude, you have no right to be offended by the fan-base's uncaring and apathetic attitude toward your latest creative endeavor. People can 'feel' what you put into something, and this has greatly affected the finished product.
Or as Dr. Phil would say, we are in a self-destructive relationship with a partner who doesn't care about us.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 01:21:10 |
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Taurren
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 02:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"You reap what you sow"
So in other words, when you approach a design with an uncaring, apathetic attitude, you have no right to be offended by the fan-base's uncaring and apathetic attitude toward your latest creative endeavor. People can 'feel' what you put into something, and this has greatly affected the finished product.
Its not a matter of uncaring, its just a matter of the bottom line. WotC believes that the loss of the die-hard FR fan is acceptable when compared with the new sales they can generate by creating a watered down FR. From their stand-point we have been irrelevant to 4E sales from the start. Which is the reason why input and involvement was not solicited while the setting was being re-built.
But frankly I am surprised that they would come into the "lion's den" to ask for input into future FR content. I would put that down to either being arrogant or desperate for more sales and "buzz".
Why would they ask for input now, after the FR core books and setting has already been published? Do subscriptions to the DDI look that bad? |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 04:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Taurren
Its not a matter of uncaring, its just a matter of the bottom line. WotC believes that the loss of the die-hard FR fan is acceptable when compared with the new sales they can generate by creating a watered down FR. From their stand-point we have been irrelevant to 4E sales from the start. Which is the reason why input and involvement was not solicited while the setting was being re-built.
Given some of the retcons and unexplained changes of 3E, I think the die-hard fans started being written out of the picture back then. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 04:43:59
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I understand completely what thy were trying to do - with FR fans getting older and fewer and fewer of us finding time to play, they needed someway to generate a whole new generation of fans.
And I applaud that effort.
However, either the Spellplague, Abeir, or the hundred-year time-jump would have solved the 're-boot' issues for the line - all three were just massive overkill, and was done in such a way that they couldn't even keep 4e FR consistent with itself, much less earlier editions.
In other words, while I give them credit for trying to grow the brand, I have to say they made a large number of mistakes in how to tackle that problem. I can come up with at least a dozen good ways that any one of those three RSEs could have been put to better use - for one, I would have developed a whole new region for the new gamers to play in. Unlike them, I would have made it Anchorome, or Osse, or something that already existed within the setting. This way, new players could have gotten a whole new campaign setting to play in without any of Faerûn's baggage, and old-timers would have flocked to the stores to buy 4e books about lands that were never covered before.
Abeir accomplishes NONE of that.
Abeir was a bad idea taken to nighmarish levels - it accomplished NOTHING, and even the 4e players aren't bothering to use it. Its inclusion alienated the 'old gaurd', and gave very little to the newcomers to work with... many of whom are coming here and the WotC boards asking questions about regions from previous editions, because the 4e FRCG leaves a little too much to the imagination.
Rather then seperating players into two camps and driving a wedge between the FR fanbase, they could have used 4e as a springboard to re-invigorate the setting (without destroying it) and at the same time bring in new players, along with many who either left or passed over FR at some earlier point, due to the encyclopedic amount of lore.
Abeir will go down in history as one of those 'commercial turning points' that change everything for years to come. If there aren't any P&P RPGs in a couple of years, we at least know exactly where to look for the culprit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 05:15:36 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 05:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are plenty of similar American/English sayings like that, but I think 'Biblical' is more universal -
"You reap what you sow"
...
Or as Dr. Phil would say, we are in a self-destructive relationship with a partner who doesn't care about us.
I don't watch Dr. Phil because he isn't a doctor, but I would echo your sentiment and add a few other comments.
Hasbro has transformed the symbiotic relationship between those who play in published campaign settings from symbiotic, in which player and publisher both need each other and each provides what the other needs (the publishers supply additional books for the setting and the players provide money and word-of-mouth publicity) to parasitic, in which one member of the relationship derives benefit and the other doesn't. In this case, Hasbro has attempted to gain money without providing what players want; the result: Realms.New.Coke, something which no players wanted, but which Hasbro is trying to sell in order to get our money. Well, they got quite a bit for the first couple of 4.New.Coke books and the FR.New.Coke, but, because they have rejected the entirety of player comments, their future sales picture looks disastrous, transforming Hasbro from a growing, thriving industrial concern into a crippled giant walking the same road which was trod by Lehman Brothers and AIG. Unfortunately for them, I have yet to hear anyone in Congress propose bailing out toy companies whose management has shown gross incompetence.
Second, Hasbro's determination to place Realms.New.Coke 100 years in the future, when most human player characters may be safely assumed to be dead -- barring contrivances as ridiculous as What's-her-name finding Bobby in the shower (a reference to the TV show "Dallas" for those who missed the point) -- shows their utter contempt for the emotional investment which D&D players have in the game through their player characters. Yes, the PCs are fictitious, but we humans can get emotionally invested in fictional characters: Britons went into spontaneous mourning when Charles Dickens killed Little Doritt; her death, however, was not unexpected, whereas Hasbro has, in effect, told players that their characters are dead and they must buy new D&D books if they want to continue playing the game. Bullcarp.
Third, Hasbro has shown its parasitic intent by continuing to publish 3.$ books into 2008, without warnings to buyers that the book was for a soon-to-be-canceled game system. Hasbro's colossal greed boggles the mind. When 3.$ was published three years after 3rd edition came out, I said that Hasbro would launch another edition in five years, which they did five years later, almost to the week! Hasbro has not tried to advise players how they may adapt their 3rd edition characters to 4.New.Coke, as pre-Hasbro Wizards did during the changeover from AD&D 2 to 3.0. With Realms characters Hasbro's "great leap forward" effectively prevents the adaptation of characters to 4.New.Coke, and by its cockamamie game mechanics it nullifies much of the previous several decades of books which I (and many of you, I know) have been assiduously acquiring for many years. 3rd edition may have seemed strange to players who were only familiar with AD&D 2nd edition, but it was still recognizably D&D, and TSR products could be adapted to 3rd edition with a minimum of fiddling; the discontinuity between TSR's products and Hasbro's new junk is so vast that earlier books are impossible to use "off the shelf" during a game, and older material can be adapted to 4.New.Coke only with considerable effort.
Hasbro's contempt for our financial investments in earlier game materials (and I have many thousands of dollars of it) is astonishing. I have Planescape materials which have now been nullified across the board because Hasbro has changed the format of the planes, killed off major gods and elevated others to greater god status without any rhyme or reason, and, so I read today, ended the Blood War which has raged since before the "Age of Thunder," before the Juna built Spelljammer, before the creation of some races, in fact. ZAP! It's over, and every cent spent on Planescape books is now money wasted if one decides to play 4.New.Coke.
Their grotesque contempt for us is even more apparent in their D&D minis line. Where do I find the hundreds of replacement cards for my minis? If it's online, who is going to pay to print them out? Not Hasbro, apparently, so the thousands of dollars I have spent on Wizards-sold D&D miniatures is now money wasted, too. The figures are no longer anything but miniatures in the broadest sense, with no "crunchy" game stats: each one of those grossly overpriced pieces of plastic is now just a piece of plastic, and many of the people and creatures they represent no longer even exist in 4.New.Coke!
I peaceably spoke my mind on Brian's thread, as requested, but what is the point if, as many have said, Hasbro is going to ignore years upon years of input which we have already given them? Do they want us to tell them how their stupid and "broken" Realms.New.Coke can be made compatible with our games? Tough job, that, because it can't: those of us who had human characters as PCs now have mouldering corpses instead, and any surviving elven or dwarven wizards or sorcerers or bards we had are now either insane or mutants (shades of Gamma World!) -- barring Bobby stepping from the shower or Chad Allen shaking a snow globe and making Realms.New.Coke disappear altogether as "Chicago Hope" did.
As a fan Brian created one of the most awesome constructions ever made for D&D, his "Temporal Chronology of the Primes." Hasbro acquired it and published it as a book, not because it was wonderful and useful, but because they wanted to use the last few pages to try to justify their insane meddling with Ed Greenwood's creation. Had they actually intended the book of his software to be truly useful to us they would have published it with an index, which they refused to do. Result? I bought my copy used from Amazon, giving neither them nor Brian any royalties, and when I want to do serious research I go to Brian's original pdf -- the book is just something for casual browsing or a vehicle for the one page (or half-page) articles written by others (which have to be found by perusing, since they didn't publish a table of contents, either). Now they use Brian to ask us to repeat what we have been saying for years? Bah! Here's my latest suggestion to Hasbro: cut the strings of Brian Goldner's golden parachute and fire him. THAT will be the best thing to happen to D&D in several years.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 05:24:58
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I have a can of gasoline... mind if I throw it onto your fire? 
Lets not forget that originally WotC bought Brian's book to put online as a FREE resource, but then greed got the better of them and they decided to sell it to us instead.
After Brian had already been giving it away for Free for a couple of years... 
Don't get me wrong - GHotR is one o my favorite gaming resources, but it saddens me to think that it was the very last D&D book ever published.
Because what they're hawkin' now ain't D&D.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 06:07:59
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Thank you Uzzy for starting this thread.
The designers shouldn't be asking for "feedback" at this point, when they have put out such a glaringly incomplete FRCS. Imagine you're at a car dealership and you come across a half-put-together car. It has no seats, no tires, doors missing. Under the hood the engine is missing. And then the salesman comes over and earnestly talks about the great options available. Uh, are we missing something here? |
Edited by - RodOdom on 04 Oct 2008 06:08:30 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 08:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
[brTheir grotesque contempt for us is even more apparent in their D&D minis line. Where do I find the hundreds of replacement cards for my minis? If it's online, who is going to pay to print them out? Not Hasbro, apparently, so the thousands of dollars I have spent on Wizards-sold D&D miniatures is now money wasted, too. The figures are no longer anything but miniatures in the broadest sense, with no "crunchy" game stats: each one of those grossly overpriced pieces of plastic is now just a piece of plastic, and many of the people and creatures they represent no longer even exist in 4.New.Coke!
Oh, don't get me started on that. Currently mine are all standing around, dejectedly, on a bookshelf, waiting for the twice weekly dust-off by the maid. They are rather thankful, I think, for even that, although of course the maid doesn't know it. At roughly 7 rands to the US dollar... no, I'll leave it at that. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 12:00:46
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I don't know if Brian is going to read or reply in this thread but I would like to ask him a question.
Why does WotC want our feedback now? Why not before when there was a chance of influencing the FR books?
As far as Brian's original request goes, I'm sorry but as there is nothing about the post-Spellplague Realms in which I am interested I can't give you any suggestions. It's a pity but there it is. WotC has made a corporate decision not to have people like me as customers so they shouldn't be surprised that I am no longer interested in what they have to sell. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 12:17:55
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| I think that if the entire FR line disappeared Hasbro would hardly notice, it's such a tiny proportion of their portfolio. WotC would notice but I don't think it would make all that much difference to the bottom line as Magic the Gathering AFAIK is their biggest line. It may well be that if sales aren't what was projected the FR line may be dropped. If that happens, they have no-one to blame but themselves. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 16:14:31
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The entire Realms line, and brand, are now the novels: the three D&D products are just that, part of the company's two 'core brands'. Outside the fiction, Wizards doesn't need or want to create new Realms fans -- people with particular affinity and loyalty to the Realms -- they want to sell their three Realms books and then sell the next setting and the next.quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And don't forget that most of the people who pick up the novels will barely even notice the hundred year jump, much less a change in the background rules systems which many of them are completely unaware lays under the fiction they're reading.
I'm sure this is so. The avoidance of Realms design principles and inner workings that I regret in the sourcebooks already occurred in much of the fiction, which was never edited to match the intricacies of Realms society and magic whose loss we so regret. Those past decisions, such as normalizing RSEs and emphasizing lone heroes, cushion the novel sales from negative or positive impact from Realms-2008.quote:
Originally posted by arry
Why does WotC want our feedback now? Why not before when there was a chance of influencing the FR books?
I imagine because now they can let it, and be seen to let it, influence what they do, in the non-crucial area of web support whose details their years-ago-planned business strategy doesn't ride on. |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 17:00:02
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| It's great that 4th ed. FR has brought in guys like Rowe. But what he and others like him cannot possibly know is whether it's good enough for them to stick around for the next twenty years. Many of us long-time fans have stuck with the Realms for that long. Twenty years, folks. Ed, TSR and the early Wizards folks had to be doing something right. Everything that I've seen so far tells me Wizards is now doing it wrong. |
Edited by - RodOdom on 05 Oct 2008 01:19:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 18:16:22
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About the minis - I had a couple of hundred dollars worth of the ugly little suckers, but stopped buying them when I got three of the same giant figure in the then newly-released Giants collection.
I have no use for a Fiendish T-Rex, and I certainly don't need three of them. I could of gotten an entire bag of plastic dinosaurs at Walmart for $1.29. 
And McFarlane's Dragons can be had from the same source, for a mere $10 each... and they put to shame ANYTHING WotC or TSR has ever produced.
I don't use the minis rules, but I can see where everyone is coming from. I used the Star Wars minis with the rules, and it was fun, but didn't hold my interest for long (but I LOVE my Wampa!) Anyhow, I let my younger boys play with them, since I had no other 'toys' at my house at the time, and they left them all over the floor, and my sister's two dogs ate them all.
I have to say, they had rather colorful poop all that week, and in most cases, I found their condition an improvement. <smirk>
Anyhow, I have about 10,000 metal miniatures so I am not for wanting when I run my games, and the quality blows away those ugly lumps of plastic.
But getting back on topic - I though that WotC would produce a list of updated stat-cards for the minis, so you could use the 'old' ones (and I use the word 'old' VERY loosely) with the new rules. If they don't do that for the people who bought into them, then thats just one more (humongous) strike against them.
I think Hasbro finally bumped Microsoft from the #2 spot on my "corporate hate list".
The gas companies still take #1... for now... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 18:18:33 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 02:25:44
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| Regarding the minis, over the years I bought a few boxes. I was always astonished how little I got out of it in relation to how much I spent. The very least Wizards could have done was protect the investment of those who did shell out hundreds (and thousands?) of dollars on that game. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 06:59:15
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I kept getting the same crappy ones over and over again, and rarely got any of the great ones (My Bane and the Beholder the two big expceptions). Considering I can get exactly the mini I want buying individual lead ones, I'd rather do that.
But yeah, I really expected them to come out with updated stat-cards. Warmachine (The Iron Kingdoms setting) did that for their minis when the rules were expanded. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 09:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But yeah, I really expected them to come out with updated stat-cards. Warmachine (The Iron Kingdoms setting) did that for their minis when the rules were expanded.
Well, to be fair, they have updated some of the stat cards—as I keep a close eye on that to 'protect my investment'—but they have only retro-fitted back up to Blood War—and that is sadly still only in beta. It still means I have to have them printed somewhere, on good cardboard, cut them out and have them all laminated again. All at my own cost. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 10:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
It's great that 4th ed. FR has brought in guys like Rowe. But what he and others like him cannot possibly know is whether it's good enough for them to stick around for the next twenty years. Many of us long-time fans have stuck with the Realms for that long. Twenty years, folks. Ed, TSR and the early Wizards folks had to be doing something right. Everything that I've seen so far tells me Wizards is now doing it wrong.
I said all along that a setting lives and dies with its DMs. These are the people who actually are "infected" with the love for a setting and some of them can in turn infect their players ... and thus future DMs. There surely was a wide base of FR DMs about, people who were reared into that over the last 20 odd years. Maybe I am wrong here, but as I see it, the Wizards cut off these DMs from the setting - by a) virtually nuking it, b ) changing the rules and c) asking all to learn most of their stuff - flair and rules alike - from scratch again. Given the responses here and at the WizBoards - however refelctive of the whole community they may be - I think WotC will find it hard to motivate any of the old DMs to take up the stick again and bring the New FR to a new generation of players, as well as attracting old players/DMs to the setting. Make no mistake, Eberron surely made some inroades on the FR community, that happens with (dare I say it) good competition. But the base was still there. Now, the New Realms face competition from (apparently not-that-much-changed) Eberron, a lack of DMs, and, of course, still the video- and PC game industry ... when it comes to attracting fun-seeking youth to the game. I wish them luck, of course. For they will need every ounce of it. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 10:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
It's great that 4th ed. FR has brought in guys like Rowe. But what he and others like him cannot possibly know is whether it's good enough for them to stick around for the next twenty years. Many of us long-time fans have stuck with the Realms for that long. Twenty years, folks. Ed, TSR and the early Wizards folks had to be doing something right. Everything that I've seen so far tells me Wizards is now doing it wrong.
I said all along that a setting lives and dies with its DMs. These are the people who actually are "infected" with the love for a setting and some of them can in turn infect their players ... and thus future DMs. There surely was a wide base of FR DMs about, people who were reared into that over the last 20 odd years. Maybe I am wrong here, but as I see it, the Wizards cut off these DMs from the setting - by a) virtually nuking it, b ) changing the rules and c) asking all to learn most of their stuff - flair and rules alike - from scratch again. Given the responses here and at the WizBoards - however reflective of the whole community they may be - I think WotC will find it hard to motivate any of the old DMs to take up the stick again and bring the New FR to a new generation of players, as well as attracting old players/DMs to the setting. Make no mistake, Eberron surely made some inroades on the FR community, that happens with (dare I say it) good competition. But the base was still there. Now, the New Realms face competition from (apparently not-that-much-changed) Eberron, a lack of DMs, and, of course, still the video- and PC game industry ... when it comes to attracting "fun-seeking" youths to the game. I wish them luck, of course. For they will need every ounce of it.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 05 Oct 2008 10:08:09 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 12:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I kept getting the same crappy ones over and over again, and rarely got any of the great ones (My Bane and the Beholder the two big expceptions). Considering I can get exactly the mini I want buying individual lead ones, I'd rather do that.
But yeah, I really expected them to come out with updated stat-cards. Warmachine (The Iron Kingdoms setting) did that for their minis when the rules were expanded.
I lucked out once with a Gold Dragon. But thankfully that "win" didn't make me keep on getting more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 15:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I kept getting the same crappy ones over and over again, and rarely got any of the great ones (My Bane and the Beholder the two big expceptions). Considering I can get exactly the mini I want buying individual lead ones, I'd rather do that.
But yeah, I really expected them to come out with updated stat-cards. Warmachine (The Iron Kingdoms setting) did that for their minis when the rules were expanded.
I lucked out once with a Gold Dragon. But thankfully that "win" didn't make me keep on getting more.
Buying minis blind is the main reason I never even considered D&D minis. I wasted enough money playing CCGs, years back, and swore I'd never do that again.
The cards with the Warmachine minis are great! It's so much easier to play using those than it is to have to use the full-size sheet of paper you'd need for BattleTech... Having played both games, I gotta say that I find Warmachine to be a simpler and more fun system than BTech, and the cards are a factor in that judgment. |
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