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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 07:59:05
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We all know most of the realms within FR have a basis in real world history. Many of them are fairly obvious; The Heartlands have a decidedly Medieval European feel, and Maztica is very similar in culture and appearance to the native peoples who inhabited what is now Central and South America. Others however are not so obvious to me. For example, what about Thay? Do the peoples and culture of Thay resemble any specific geographic historical era? These are just examples. There are many other obvious and not so obvious places in the realms than can be connected to real world history. So, I thought it might be interesting to try to match up as many as we can by geography and (if possible) time period.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 08:22:27
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| Even if some of the realms have a basis in real world history, I don't think this is true for all of them. Thay is a good example, there was no magocracy in our world. Events and facts from our world have presumable provided the starting point for the creation of some of Torils realms, but many of these are original to the Realms, even if you can find some analogy to our world (there were olygarchies with substantial slave trade, for example). |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 09:17:19
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| To me, Thay most resembles Turkey. Turkey always represented the border and cultural meeting point between Medieval Europe and the Middle East/East, similar to how Thay is the border between Mulhorand and the Hordelands. The Tuigan Horde/Mongolians similarity probably contributes a great deal to that, though. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 09:33:34
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Most of the "real world" cultures and elements where put in the Realms in the old TSR days and these can easily be likened to earthly cultures and areas. Eds originals are a different story and are not so easily categorized.
Thay, for me, is a combination of the wizards of Pan Tang, pulpish fire worshipers and old Ashton Smith stories. |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 10:46:33
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That's the thing that bugs me about Wikipedia's articles on the geography of the Realms. They attempt to boil it down to "Realms States X are Earth States Y (and I claim my five pounds ). The more research I do as a scribe, the more making any direct comparison to Earth-history seems superficial. Every empire is Rome and every tribal horse-society is not Mongolian.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 12:37:59
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The original, core part of the Realms is not analogous to our world, and our-world norms can't be assumed to apply. Some of the places, like Kara-Tur [which was a TSR add-on to Ed's Realms], are among those exceptions that are based on Earth, in their published forms, for various reasons... excepting the Shaar.
Any given cultural fact about medieval or Renaissance Europe probably does not apply to the Heartlands: Ed's Realms is created to deliberately discourage assuming and instead encourage players to engage actively with the setting and find out its unique details and nature. Also, the influences on the Heartlands are far more from fiction than from history, so that reading the half-dozen most Realmslike fantasy authors will give you a better [though still very inaccurate] picture of the Realms than understanding any amount of European history.
Slay_4_pay, I'd recommend you read through Ed's April 13th '06 replies here at Candlekeep, for his thoughts on the sources of inspirations for some of the areas you've mentioned here. They are required reading for any particular Realms devotee who wishes to have access to accurate facts as they've been determined by Ed himself. These replies clearly prove just how invalid some of the more "nonsense" claims actually are.
And finally, consider this, from Ed's '06 replies:-
"...but it should always be remembered that the Realms is NOT an analogy or copy of Earth; what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerūn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view: the Realms may develop in very different ways than the real world did."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jan 2008 12:40:11 |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 15:40:35
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This is one thing i have always thought was funny...not the hahaha type of funny. I sit at a table on saturday nights with 6 other players of extreme varied backgrounds...Russian, Puerto Rican, Native American, GGGGGerman and the "autistic kid with one testicle"....anyway
During our midgame food break we usually talk about current events and how they relate to the game. I find it funny when our historians begin to talk about history and its basis in the game. I usually end the discussions quick with..
"How many fireballs do you think wizards in europe 600 years ago could cast in a single day?!"
My point is you can not compare D&D to the real world simply because of the magic aspect. Magic in the realms can build castles in days instead of the years and decades it takes in RL. Simple things like that make such a HUGE impact on historical background. |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 15:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by LordArcana
This is one thing i have always thought was funny...not the hahaha type of funny. I sit at a table on saturday nights with 6 other players of extreme varied backgrounds...Russian, Puerto Rican, Native American, GGGGGerman and the "autistic kid with one testicle"....anyway
During our midgame food break we usually talk about current events and how they relate to the game. I find it funny when our historians begin to talk about history and its basis in the game. I usually end the discussions quick with..
"How many fireballs do you think wizards in europe 600 years ago could cast in a single day?!"
My point is you can not compare D&D to the real world simply because of the magic aspect. Magic in the realms can build castles in days instead of the years and decades it takes in RL. Simple things like that make such a HUGE impact on historical background.
I disagree. The fantasy aspect does make huge differences, obviously, ("How many fireballs do you think wizards in europe 600 years ago could cast in a single day?!" {That cracked me up})but you can still drae some connections from fantasy settings to real world history based on geographic location, cultural norms, etc. |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:45:51
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As much to say calimshan is similar to an arabian setting and Kara-tur is similar to an Oriental setting etc yes you can say that the people of that region appear to have similar traits and their cultures have similar tendencies but to say Calimshan has developed over the last 3000 years the same as Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia in the last 3000 years is a bit off. Yes you Could say its the same after all its your campaign and your realm, but again its not earth is Toril and its a world where you can do to your local temple and have them cast a spell that will heal a sword in your guy wound in a matter of seconds as opposed to months and perhaps years of tedious pain followed by infection and most possibly death in the real world.
I agree that each person has their opinion and i would never say they are wrong, i just don't see how you can compare two things so different. I have designed my own game worlds built on historical references, mostly when i played Ars Magica but the Forgotten Realms is not earth and while Ed has made references to historical similarities its difficult enough to build a timeline of what would or could occur in 100 years of earth time between two waring neighbor countries...its even harder when you add each country has several dozen fireball, lightning bolt casting wizards...call lightning casting druids, and clerics that can bring people back from the dead.
Imagine alone those specific examples in Real Life. Do you think Hitler would have been so eager to off himself if he knew he could be captured...found guilty...killed...corpse dug up and resurected..or even True Resurected without a corpse?
Imagine Khan never getting old and never having to worry about death. What about the Roman Empire having priests who could actually heal. Imagine how devistating their armies would have been being able to call down a series of strategic placed Flame Strikes.
**EDIT**
I do agree that similarities can be found as i tend to base weather patterns in FR from similar locations on earth using Waterdeep similar to Portland Or and Cormyr to Mississipi etc That certainly doesn't mean i expect fried Livermush and grits to be served as a breakfast in Suzail  |
Edited by - LordArcana on 12 Jan 2008 16:50:43 |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:32:02
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quote:
Originally posted by LordArcana
My point is you can not compare D&D to the real world simply because of the magic aspect. Magic in the realms can build castles in days instead of the years and decades it takes in RL. Simple things like that make such a HUGE impact on historical background.
Of course that's true. However, I think a simple comparison to a similar place on Earth can give you inspiration to fill in details like city and NPC names, visuals (important to me being as how I'm using NWN2), descriptions, missing cultural elements, even story ideas.
Or maybe I'm just not terribly creative haha I take what I can get. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
To me, Thay most resembles Turkey. Turkey always represented the border and cultural meeting point between Medieval Europe and the Middle East/East, similar to how Thay is the border between Mulhorand and the Hordelands. The Tuigan Horde/Mongolians similarity probably contributes a great deal to that, though.
I can see where your coming from with the Turks. I gave it some thought, and personally, I was kind of thinking about Russia. When I think of Thay, I think of Medieval Russia. I'm not saying that there is any kind of intentional connection, it's just what goes through my mind. Chult makes me think of Africa, and the barbarians of the north put me in a definite mindset of ancient peoples like the Thanes ( I think that's right, you know Beowulf, the Thanes, right?). Now before you go jumping down my throat, I understand that these connections might just be in my mind. So, if you don't see it that's cool. There is no need to chew me out over it. But if you do see these, or especially other different connections (for the places I've named or the ones I haven't), I would be very interested in hearing your opinion. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:49:57
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As a longtime player in Ed's own Realms campaign, let me just add my voice to the view that Ed's original Realms locales (as opposed to the "tacked on" by TSR additions such as their Moonshaes, their Unther and Mulhorand, the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Maztica, and the Al-Qadim lands) are NOT based directly on any real-world historical (or our modern day idea of) real city-states, countries, or cultural regions. Some of them are meant to EVOKE feelings of a real-world near-Orient (Thay) or grim Celtic North (parts of the Savage Frontier) or bucolic Sherwood Forest rural medieval England (the Dalelands), but they are NOT, repeat not "based on" or intended to emulate any real-world places.
Individual DMs can, of course, make Realms locales mirror real historical places (or Hollywood versions of same) if they want to; there's nothing at all wrong with that. Yet it is wrong to believe Ed intended any Realms features to be copies of real-world places, to "operate" the same way, or have local events turn out as they did in recorded history. As Ed has said many times, to follow that approach too often leads to poor roleplaying (instead of exploring what happens in the Hordelands, players start to argue about when real-world Mongols got stirrups or if they needed them, etc.).
The published Realms, of course, does have some real-world direct similarities, because TSR at the time of launching the Realms needed the Realms to be the "home" setting for the game, and therefore accomodate Sea Adventures, Arabian Adventures, Jungle Adventures, etc., and because at least two of the staff designers of the time were big on real-world history.
love,
THO |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 18:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by LordArcana
As much to say calimshan is similar to an arabian setting and Kara-tur is similar to an Oriental setting etc yes you can say that the people of that region appear to have similar traits and their cultures have similar tendencies but to say Calimshan has developed over the last 3000 years the same as Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia in the last 3000 years is a bit off. Yes you Could say its the same after all its your campaign and your realm, but again its not earth is Toril and its a world where you can do to your local temple and have them cast a spell that will heal a sword in your guy wound in a matter of seconds as opposed to months and perhaps years of tedious pain followed by infection and most possibly death in the real world.
I agree that each person has their opinion and i would never say they are wrong, i just don't see how you can compare two things so different. I have designed my own game worlds built on historical references, mostly when i played Ars Magica but the Forgotten Realms is not earth and while Ed has made references to historical similarities its difficult enough to build a timeline of what would or could occur in 100 years of earth time between two waring neighbor countries...its even harder when you add each country has several dozen fireball, lightning bolt casting wizards...call lightning casting druids, and clerics that can bring people back from the dead.
Imagine alone those specific examples in Real Life. Do you think Hitler would have been so eager to off himself if he knew he could be captured...found guilty...killed...corpse dug up and resurected..or even True Resurected without a corpse?
Imagine Khan never getting old and never having to worry about death. What about the Roman Empire having priests who could actually heal. Imagine how devistating their armies would have been being able to call down a series of strategic placed Flame Strikes.
**EDIT**
I do agree that similarities can be found as i tend to base weather patterns in FR from similar locations on earth using Waterdeep similar to Portland Or and Cormyr to Mississipi etc That certainly doesn't mean i expect fried Livermush and grits to be served as a breakfast in Suzail
I think we are pretty much on the same page. I'm talking about very general connections here. Like the example of Calimshan and Kara-tur you gave. Like I said before the fantasy elements are of course a huge differing factor, and really it's just certain places have a disticnt cultural feel to them, and that in my mind is where the connections are. (Sorry, I know that I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I was trying to say).
Also, I like what you are saying about using real world geography to establish weather patterns. And |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 18:12:55
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| Critical thing, slay, is to realize that Calimshan and Kara-Tur are very different cases. Calimshan is broadly inspired by our world's Near and Middle East but in execution is more different than it's similar and so can't be said to follow real-world models. Kara-Tur is a direct analogue of various parts of our world's East Asia. Two quite distinct world-building approaches. |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 18:41:16
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I have to appologize as well Slay for my approach. For years i have been the devils advocate in every gaming group i have been in as well as the anti-static DM i have grown to be. While i wouldn't be the one to stand on a table and yell "Buck the system!" i never ever wanted to buy FR books and say this is the world written in stone...it says here on page 18 of book a that Joe Shmoe from Turmish has this ability and this special quality so you are dead with no save!
When i look at the realms i see a bunch of differing landscapes with oceans and seas, forests, deserts...and a bunch of black dots with names. From there i have developed my own socities some of which coincide with what is published.
I just never liked the idea of one of my players picking up a FR book and using it against me. If the group tries to use it against me i tell them that even the books the PC's read in game are written by mortlas and subject to the writers opinions.
Anyway the point i was trying to make is i sometimes forget the subtle changes i have made to "my" realms over the cannon realms.
PS. To "The Hooded One" this might seem like a strange question but being a long time player in Ed's game i am wondering. What is it REALLY like? No offense intended to Mr. Greenwood but how would you rate him as a DM?
Personally the closest i have ever gotten to playing with "professional" DM's is 2nd and 3rd year of GenCon when i got to play but neither of them were...excellent DM's. While i had fun i doubt i would play in that environment full time. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
I disagree. The fantasy aspect does make huge differences, obviously, ("How many fireballs do you think wizards in europe 600 years ago could cast in a single day?!" {That cracked me up})but you can still drae some connections from fantasy settings to real world history based on geographic location, cultural norms, etc.
But the real question, I think, would be "Is that a good idea?"
I think you'll find that this particular topic is very controversial among Realms fans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Jan 2008 22:11:00 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 03:47:44
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LordArcana, if you rate Dungeon Masters as by-the-rulebooks, instant-figures-at-their-fingertips during heavy combat/tactical play, then Ed will probably seem to be a sloppy, ham-acting folksy old guy to you.
If you prefer heavy roleplaying (ahem, ham-acting, ahem) and bringing the Realms to life around you, with lots of intrigue and meeting people rather than meeting-and-defeating-monsters, then Ed is one of the greatest Dungeon Masters you will ever meet.
Years back, I spent several seasons attending many conventions and playing (and playtesting) various versions of D&D with many DMs, and Ed still stands out above them all.
If it matters at all, in the first version of the RPGA, he was at one time a 6th level judge (they lost all his points in computer crashes so often that ranking him soon thereafter became meaningless, but he made it to at least 9th during all that schmozzle).
Ed prefers story over dice-rolling. I've seen him respond to a player query about finding secret doors by throwing handfuls of dice up into the air, and before they land replying, "No, you don't seem to notice any," to broadly hint. I've also seen him portray a desperate princess down to caressing the feet of an astonished player as he sobbed real tears and pleaded.
However, Ed firmly believes that PLAYERS set the tone; if they want laid-back, relaxed "pass the chips, willya?" play, that's fine with him. If they all want to do Monty Python silly voices and jump around excitedly, that's okay too. As he's said many a time, he's there to serve the players, and make sure they have a good time. In non-tournament play, he NEVER forces players to "go this way" and enter an adventure; he lets them discuss, in-character, where they'll go and what they'll try to do.
It's hard to see the real Ed at conventions, as a DM, because you can't really see the years of unfolding subplots and in-jokes and shared experiences that he can hintingly remind players of, in play. He makes the Realms seem real. I mean: REAL. Bringing even we veterans to snarling anger or weeping grief or chortling glee because our characters were feeling that way.
I think you've probably figured out by now that I think Ed is THE wonderful DM. 
However, I'd never want him to run a table at an elimination tournament with a bunch of cutthroat players all with maxed munchkin characters, who want to get into combat with each other. Ed's not a cold-blooded, swift number cruncher or rules lawyer. "Spit on the rules, tell a good STORY - - WITH and not TO the players," as he often told wannabe DMs at GenCon workshops two decades ago.
love,
THO |
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Match the realm with it's real historical basis
