| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 21:07:11
I want to use this thread to coalesce all the random 'cosmological musings' we are currently doing in one neat place. I'd also lke to focus on revisiting a theorized Jhaamdath pantheon. You can read about some old thought on the subject HERE. To go with that, here's the preposed pantheon - DISCUSS
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Based on some previous threads, I come up with the below
Auppenser
Borem
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan Thirdborn
Waukeen
Murdane (goddess of Pragmatism and Reason)
Helm (Heimdall) - who was in love with Murdane
other strong possibilities
Tyr (though he came later than Jhaamdath, there's some references that imply he may have been here prior under slightly different names like Anachtyr)
Talos (as either another name for Kozah OR a Jhaamdath deity) OR
Bhaelros (he's been in nearby Calimshan for millenia)
Umberlee (in possible relation to Murdane's death)
Silvanus
Oghma
Jergal (only mentioning him because there's some assumptions that he may have been down in the Shaar)
Garagos
Loviatar
Lathander
Sune
Eldath
Hoar the Doombringer (interloping from Unther and Chessenta)
Mystryl (only because of magic)
Leira (because a goddess of illusion seems to fit this region... working on belief and the mind)
Melith (a deity of creativity found in Chessenta, of which we have nothing other than an entry in Old Empires just saying she has creativity and not Lathander)
Malar
BTW, I love this from something Gray Richardson wrote back in 2006
Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.
Together they bore (at least) 5 children:
Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)
Other Musings
In the "Norse-like Realm" thread we started discussing the Jhaamdath pantheon (hence this new thread), which lead me to an old thread, and someone (I forget who - Grey Richardson?) mentioned his error in considering Nobanion for the Jhaamdathi Pantheon, because of the time-frames involved.
So that got me thinking about not only WHEN Nobanion arrived, but also why. Which got me thinking that maybe there was a 'Banion' he showed up to stop (I like to play with words), and then what kind of being would he show up to oppose. Looking up natural predators/enemies of lions, the only one they really have is Hyenas (they will hunt even healthy lions when starved, and attack wounded or sick lions all the time). So then I went looking for a Hyena-headed god (I figured the Egyptians would have one, but NOPE - they had Jackals instead), I came across the only one... and guess who it is?
Yeenoghu! Our very own D&D came through for me. And what kind of creatures appear to lie in (and know all the ins-and-outs of) the Gulthmere (in one of Paul Kemp's novels)? Gnolls! And what creatures had a 'mighty empire' (Urgnarash) in The Shaar before humans ever showed up there? Gnolls! Which means there's a good chance the original (human) inhabitants of The Shaar - the Turami - would know about Yeenoghu (probably a few crumbling, ancient temples lying around), and the Turami main region in northern Faerűn today is Turmish - right next to the Gulthmere, and Nobanion's 'stomping grounds'!
So could someone have called him forth to Toril to battle a 'gnoll infestation' - that perhaps Yeenoghu (after loosing quite a bit of planer power) decided to rebuild his former status on Toril, and Nobanion (who we know is really Aslan) showed up and put a stop to all that? If so, why? Who could have called him? And who would have known about him?
WELL... Ed has stated in the past that he set-up Lurue and Nobanion to be the characters in 'The Lion and the Unicorn' poem. He always meant for them to be some sort of 'cosmic opposites', balancing each other out (Life/Mana to be used, and Life/Mana to be retained? Not sure how to spin that one - only Ed would know). But wouldn't that mean that Nobanion has to be an ancient power (and given his real identity, well... YEAH) - Lurue is 'primal', so too should be Nobanion.
So maybe Nobanion was around 'near the beginning' (he seems to like getting worlds started), but then left to go about other things (maybe he's in charge of coalescing all the escaped 'primal energy' into Crystal Spheres?), and then he left. But when his ancient enemy Yeenoghu started building a power-base in the realms, he showed up to stop it. And just maybe, he was part of the 'solution' the first time the gnoll empire (Urgnarash) fell. Thus, Nobanion (perhaps not as Nobanion) may not be new to The Realms at all. Its just been so long since he's revealed himself in FR humans forgot him, or never even knew him: I just now only realized that Urgnarash must have existed on the First World, because it predates the Sundering. Only the Creator Races would have known of him, and perhaps he helped Ao rebuild the world after it was sundered.
And maybe... he went to Abeir, while Lurue stayed to watch over Toril. 
"The lion and the unicorn
Were fighting for the crown
The lion beat the unicorn
All around the town.
<snip>
And when he had beat him out,
He beat him in again;
He beat him three times over,
His power to maintain."
All around? Running in circles? like two planets in the same exact orbit on opposite sides of the sun? 
And for further 'food for thought', because we seem to have gone down that path in other threads - could these two primal beings be the 'male & female' aspects of Ao? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| NieveMac |
Posted - 08 Nov 2019 : 05:07:20
*necros the thread* Just found it interesting (and bringing this back to the original discussion about Nobanion) that not only did interloper deities in a RW sense get brought up, but so did the Egyptian pantheon...since there actually was an interloper into that pantheon from the gods of Nubia who was a lion-headed god: Maahes. Granted, as a god of slaughter he isn't exactly what we think of when we think of Aslan; but then again "he's not a tame lion", Nobanion still had a hunting/killing aspect to his dogma, and Maahes was also a protector of Ra's sun-barge as well as involved in the judging of souls and punishment of those who harmed the innocent. So that rather fits in with some of Tyr and Torm's portfolios too. And considering lions were still a thing in Europe and the Middle East in the time of ancient Greece/Rome, and "Aslan" is simply the Persian word for "lion", having a lion-headed god end up as part of the Egyptian pantheon only makes sense.
And if Nobanion were also Maahes, this could also explain how Torm could have connections with him and Tyr if we go with the theory of there being a forgotten paladin-realm in the Shaar, south and east of Mulhorand and Jhaamdath--what if Nobanion in his Maahes aspect were a part of Tyr's Procession of Justice, helping to bring down Valigan? And this happened to draw Torm's attention from the fallen remnants of Chalsembyr (especially if he was, indeed, a wemic), and that's how he ended up serving under Tyr and an ally (or Chosen) of Nobanion's? This also ties into the notion of Nobanion's presence being needed to restore/reset the balance. Finally, while it's been noted that Nobanion has apparently been in and out of Toril several times, are there any specifics on when (according to legend) he came in through the portal in the Weathercote Wood? According to the Forgotten Realms Wiki this information comes from Eric Boyd in Polyhedron #115, but not having read that I don't know if it gave any Faerunian date; the Weathercote Wood, however, does predate Netheril, which means he could have arrived at any point prior to the fall of Jhaamdath. And if Waukeen were also part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon, this could even provide an additional explanation as to why Torm had an affinity for her lion-statue in Tantras.
Just some fun free association, but maybe there's some useful nuggets in there! |
| Baltas |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 23:43:21
With Valigan, I have some further info – it's possible you know it, but I find it quite interesting, for several reasons.
First an answer from Ed Bonny about Valigan
quote:
On July 7, 2005 Ed Bonny said: Hey Paul,
I had overlooked the Valigan-Exarch connection although it clearly is part of the tale of Jhaamdath's destruction (and Tyr's arrival and subsequent involvement with the empire's fragmented survivors.)
At the time of Valigan's "appearance" in Jhaamdath, Auppenser's followers were being harassed, persecuted, and shut out by the more imperial-minded militants of the empire. Valigan could certainly have seen the imperial dreams of many Jhaamdathans as an opportunity to inject future chaos.
That would bring us to Thelasand. I do not see any true Jhaamdathan worshipping a god of chaos unless that god sought out someone receptive. Persecution can open the door to many unforeseen consequences. It seems very likely that the awful treatment "Auppenser-loyalists" received would inevitably give rise to a Jhaamdathan who was sorely disenchanted with the imperialists (in this case, Thelasand, an ancient noble family whose persistent devotion to Auppenser caused the family's recent downfall). Such a person would be perfect for Valigan to use as an agent of anarchy.
Valigan approached Thelasand. The god nurtured dreams of dismantling the harsh regime that was the cause of Thelasand's personal misery. Thelasand was offered revenge against the cruel imperialists and their ways. Bloodshed would, of course, be needed to free the region of Jhaamdath's lust for empire. But to accomplish this, it would be necessary to strike from within and on high. Thelasand would need to position himself to make this happen. He would need to be emperor if he were to bring down the empire.
And so from humble beginnings and with secret aid from Valigan, Thelasand feigned to be an imperialist as he rose his way up through the military and government. His military campaigns were conducted in ways that benefitted Valigan greatly by causing great carnage and devastation.
Flush with fame and military success, Thelasand easily gained access to the emperor and was able to influence him in matters of imperial policy. The imperial-minded Jhaamdathans were certainly open to most any option that enriched or empowered the empire (and also enrich the participants). The Valigan-inspired idea for an imperial navy, when proposed to the emperor by Thelasand, seemed to be a logical step to grow the empire. As for the elves whose forests would supply the ships' wood? The wholesale slaughter of elves would be a small if not inconsequential price to pay.
And so we come to the last days of the empire. Thelasand was no doubt highly pleased with himself. In a relatively short period of time, he became a powerful player in Jhaamdathan politics. In a year or two, he would be in a position to slay the emperor and take over Jhaamdath. Then he would begin his plans to dismantle the psionic empire, disband its armies, free the 12 cities, and throw the entire region into anarchy.
As mentioned earlier, persecution can open doors to unforeseen circumstances. While the Chondalwood was being ravaged, I doubt Thelesand foresaw the fast-approaching day when his empire would destroyed by elven high magic. I imagine that Valigan was well aware (if not thrilled) that Jhaamdath's doom was nigh.
In the end, both participants in this saga lost. Thelesand never realized his dreams to take down the imperialists. And Valigan's successful plans for anarchy would ultimately lead to his death at the hands of Tyr.
- Ed
This paints Valigan as quite similar to Loki, at his most malicious, and actually has Valigan as largely the engineer of Jhaamdath's fall.
This further explored in “The Grand History of the Realms”.
quote:
Procession of Justice
The following thought images are from a rieldoxia word crystal attributed to Exarch Thelasand IV of fallen Jhaamdath. The
magically preserved crystal was recovered from an excavation outside the village of Urml in the Year of the Spur (1348 DR).
Never shall I forget that bitterly cold morning when I was preaching
to the unwashed plebs from a pinnacle overlooking Beansidhe Hill. From
over my shoulder, a piercing light suddenly washed over the forum, startling
the throng. My breath caught as I turned to behold a beautiful
being long thought to be merely legend or myth.
“I am the planetar Antonia of Hjordis, known to mortals as
Resounding Justice” said the celestial, “and I bring good tidings to you,
Thelasand, fourth of that name.” Raising her mighty war sword aloft, she
shouted to the shaken multitude below. “Grimjaws is nigh! In the name
of Tyr, this land shall be cleansed of wickedness and anarchy.” Then she
turned her gaze back upon me and said, “The seed of Valigan Thirdborn
shall be extinguished. Those with evil in your hearts beware—Tyr’s justice
is both merciful and swift.” A great vortex then opened up beyond the 8-
foot-tall planetar, and out marched scores of celestial champions. Shaking
off my disorientation, I found my legs and fled the mound.
Oh, how Beshaba must be cackling at this scion of lost Jhaamdath,
once favored of Valigan Thirdborn and trusted advisor to Emperor
Dharien. Now I dwell deep within the mosquito-infested Wetwood, captive
to primitive grippli with the host of Grimjaws hot on my trail. A
pox on the Maimed God and his so-called Procession of Justice who
come unbidden to these lands! Why does Valigan forsake me now?
— BRJ
This presents the forces of Tyr as seemingly having a quite personal vendetta against Valigan, which has sense with Tyr being the part of the Jhaamdath pantheon.
On a wider note, it also gives some further suggestion Valigan had some connection to Auppenser, althought it's possible Valigan was fully just using Thelasand, not carring about his connection to Auppenser.
Another interesting fact, is that Thelasand knows Beshaba, suggesting she was the part of the pantheon. But also that Beshaba existed at the time of Jhaamdath's fall – far earlier than we thought.
It's also possible though Beshaba originally existed as an aspet of Tyche as it's even stated Tyche was also known as "Lady Doom".
Especially that the ciizens of Shade, did worship an aspect of yche that seemed like a proto-Beshaba. From Netheril: Empire of MGIC:
quote:
Age of Discovery (2654-3162): The citizens of Shade built a mosque dedicated to the treacherous aspect of Tyche in 2714.
They used her vengeful nature to benefit their goals while using
the luck aspect of Tyche to weigh the result in their favor
- LordofBones
Well, there are some connection between the Vanir and Celtic gods.
One example is the Goddess Nehalennia, who is debated to have been originally Celtic, or Germanic, but shows definite paralells to Njord, Nerthus, Freyr and Freyja.
Oberon, the King of Fairies and Elves, seems to be based on the Norse/Germanic figure Alberich, king of Elves (actually more Black/Dark Elves, seeing Albreich's name means literally King of Elves, and is described as such in part of stories, but in the “The Song of the Nibelungs”, he is described as a dwarf, but that might mean dark elf, seeing how dwarves and dark elvesblack elves, were interchangable to some level in Norse and Germanic folklore), but also identified by some with the Celtic Gwyn ap Nudd.
Some think Albereich, is also a southern version of Freyr, who was exactly the King of Elves, albeit light elves. It's also possible Albreich is meant to be an Cthonic counterpart or aspect of Freyr, and King of Dark Elves.
This isn't the only example when a figure in Germanic myths, "fragments".
Loki is a character who done so. The most known example, is that of there appearing of Uthgard-Loki, who seems to pretty much be Loki (up to being a tricksters), but is a separate character from Loki in Gylfaginning, but in Gesta Danorum, the name Uthgard-Loki appears to be describing Loki bound after his murder of Baldr.
Either Vili and Ve, is possibly another incarnation of Loki - in one myth it's Odin, Vili, and Vee who animate the first humans, but in another, it's Odin, Heonir and Lodur, with Lodur quite possibly being a form of Loki's name.
Some sources have also described Loki as Odin't birth brother, like the name of Loki's birth brother - Helblindi - is a a heti (name) of Odin. Loki and Helbindi/Odin, also have in that account a third brother - Byleistr - being even more similar to the story of Odin, Vili and Ve...
Another example is Freyja, as her aspect as Gullveig ("Gold-greed"), evolved seemingly into another character - Angerboda, lover of Loki, mother of his three infamous children. As Freyja, as Gullveig, is famous for being burned trice by the Aesir, but each time returning to life. But in one account, Loki is impregnated with his monstrous children, by eating a "Burned Hag's" heart, with researchers identifying at times Gullveig and Angerboda.
This was used with Grendel's Mother in the 2007's Beowulf movie, were she obviously is meant to be both Gullveig (Gold-Greed - she tempted men with both her beauty, and gold), as well as Angerboda (being the mother of monsters). Especially that researchers did theorize Grendel's mother, is a demonized Freyja.
But to be fair, not only Vanir are similar to Celtic Gods. Odin has paralells with Lugh, Dadga and even Herne and Cernunos (to the point some researchers, think Odin is Lugh adopted by proto-German, displacing Tyr as the chief god), or Nuada and Tyr.
The Germanic and Norse Gods, including Vanir, have also paralells to Slavic Gods. There is for example Marzanna/Morana and Dziewana/Devana have to Freyja, especially if we consider the two aspects of one deity as some do. Marzanna's name also, is connected to Slavic words for sea deping on name (ie in Polish Marzanna, tying to Morze - Sea in Polish), being similar to Freyja as Mardoll, also named after sea. Devana name is simalr to another of Freyja's name, Vanadis, although also to the Vedic, Hindu, and Buddhist (as well asin Baltic languages) words for divinities - Deva and Devi.
Morana/Marzanna also has visible similarities to Morrigan (up to name), Cailleach , and Hel, as she is the Goddess of Winter, Death and Dead (but also of Life, Spring and Nature, particulary as Dziewana/Devana), although her story (being burned as a witch/hag, and return to life) are again similar to Freyja as Gullveig. The enigmatic God Nyja, God of Death and Wealth, was noted to have a name cognate to Njordr's name, who also was the god of wealth, but as I noted with Marzanna, Slavs connected waters, with being portals to the underworld.
Nyja though, can be just an aspect/nme of Volos/Veles, who is much more similar to Loki and Odin - up to the point Veles Baltic mythology counterpart/Cognate, Velnias, like Odin, has just one eye, losing the other. With Perun, being famously similar to Thor.
The Slavic Gods, also have like Vanir Gods, Slavic Gods also came in godly pairs with the same name, just different by the deity's sex (like Freyr and Freyja, Njordr and Nerthus) - Perun and Perperuna (the goddess also known as Dodola); Kupalo and Kupala; Lado and Lada; Jarylo and Jaruna (aparently Marzana in her life and spring aspect - Devana/Dziewanna, with "Marzanna" being her death/winter aspect).
Although as Markustay stated, the separations between patheons of gods, is often ilusionary, and pantheons overlap and influence each other... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 18:54:16
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, the Vanir being Celtic is really stretching. Nothing ties them to the Celts IRL, much less in D&D.
Actually, I meant this in a 'wholly D&D' fashion. RW, I know there is no such connection because there is NO 'Fey Pantheon'. 
In D&D, I see the thing with Druids (and 'The Goddess/Wicca to go slightly further afield) as being fundamentally connected to nature, and thus, derived from the Fey originally (within the context of D&D, NOT RW), since the Druidism/Wicca is about worshiping/appeasing 'spirits of nature', which the fey are. Archfey were probably the first gods worshiped by druids (in game, once again, NOT RW).
NOW, RW I believe the Aesir = Assura, and the Vanir = Vedic gods. When you start taking apart the myths (of both those cultures, and MANY others) you see there was a great war in the distant past between two mighty (probably at least as technologically civilized as us) Earth cultures, and I think their 'descendents' were the Norse and Indo-Europeans. Just as in the modern world, those 'common people' were brainwashed into believing the other side was 'evil', when all it was really about was a control of resources by 'the Elite' (nothing ever changes, it seems - history is cyclic). Thus, thousands upon thousands of years later, we 'see' these events through the filter of folklore and mythology - the 'other side' became demons and evil gods, and their leaders became 'the good gods'. This isn't even supposition - we can see it quite clearly in the Judaeo-Christian mythos; they purposely turned 'the gods' of competing religions into demons in their written works. 'The Elite' literally demonize anything that goes against their agenda.
And if you think religion (not the belief in God and spiritual beings) is anything more than a humungus propaganda campaign, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell ya'. 
(FAITH is a very personal thing - once you turn it into a religion its becomes a 'brand', and you're 'selling it'. Its 'just business', and has nothing at all to do with you spiritual growth). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 12:41:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But Sleyvas, WHY do gods who are 'friends with benefits' have to be from the same pantheon? In D&D, we have set living with Tiamat now - Sumerian and Pharonic (and supposedly on two different sides in many Mulan wars... although those two never followed the rules anyway).
And I have it from Wikipedia - NOT and D&D wiki - that Set has fathered children (RW mythology) in TWO other pantheons (at least two, IIRC). Even stepping outside of D&D and gaming, gods have been know to 'have affairs' with gods of other pantheons. And Silvanus was actually NAMED by the Romans, because the Celts had so many different regional names for their gods that the Romans 'codified' it all and rolled it into their pantheon.
And since you brought up Heimdal - the Norse deities are comprised of TWO different pantheons - the Aesir, of whom we know a great deal, and the Vanir, of whom we know very little (that's what happens to the 'losers' in a war). If anything, the Vanir are Celtic (fey) interlopers themselves, which would be Frey, Freya, and their father Njörđr - all 'battle-captives' of the Aesir. Also, just now checking Wikipedia again (because I can never spell Njörđr), I see that frey is considered the same deity as Isis by some historians (further indications of some sort of primordial war between the Norse/Northern European ethnic groups and the Indo-European ones).
I keep saying it - pantheons are a wholly mortal creation. The gods are really all just one big group. 
Yeah, that's what I essentially just said. Sounds like we're in agreement. Its maybe a pantheon made up of many gods from other "pantheons". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 12:39:58
Whoa.... Vali was the name of one of Loki's sons? thank you... while I had equated Loki and Valigan Thirdborn... THAT had never clicked. So, Vali may have been something like a father naming a child after himself to a degree... or we could twist it in other ways. That's cool.
and just to aid some research on that... from the Wiki for Vali (son of Loki)... he was changed into a wolf by the gods to kill his brother so they could use the other son's entrails to bind Loki... and noting there was another Vali who was a "son of Odin"... who was born after Balder's death to avenge Balder's death by killing Hodr. Almost like at some point "Loki" was split into light and dark sides... ahhhh, that's messy, especially since the Vali (son of Odin) side is the dutiful one....
from the Wiki for Vali (son of Loki)
Now Loki was taken truceless, and was brought with them into a certain cave. Thereupon they took three flat stones, and set them on edge and drilled a hole in each stone. Then were taken Loki's sons, Váli and Nari or Narfi; the Ćsir changed Váli into the form of a wolf, and he tore asunder Narfi his brother. And the Ćsir took his entrails and bound Loki with them over the three stones: one stands under his shoulders, the second under his loins, the third under his houghs; and those bonds were turned to iron. — Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur's translation
<snip>
Váli, son of Loki, is otherwise unknown. A variant version in the Hauksbók manuscript of stanza 34 of "Völuspá" refers to this event; it begins: "Ţá kná Vála | vígb#491;nd snúa", usually amended to the nominative Váli in order to provide a subject for the verb; in Ursula Dronke's translation in her edition of the poem, "Then did Váli | slaughter bonds twist". This presumably refers to Váli, son of Óđinn, who was begotten to avenge Baldr's death, and thus it is not unlikely that he bound Loki; but the Hauksbók stanza interrupts the flow of "Völuspá" at this point and presumably draws on a variant oral tradition. It is likely that this was Snorri's source, and that he interpreted the manuscript text Vála vígb#491;nd as "bonds from Váli's act of slaughter", thus inventing a second Váli. In the rather cryptic prose at the end of "Lokasenna", which appears to be derived from Snorri's account, Narfi transforms into a wolf and his brother Nari's guts are used to bind their father.
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 02:36:10
Who are these two pantheons?
Set is associated with Typhon, yes, but it's in the sense that an Oeridian would associate Boccob with Mystra. He just catches a lot of flak for being the deity of dem dirty foreigners. He's not actually Typhon, other than having similar myths (only if taken at face value; Typhon vs Zeus is very different from Set vs Osiris). If you're talking about Anat and Astarte, that's because those two were imported into the Egyptian pantheon as daughters of Ra in the 16th century. They're interloper gods, to use D&D terminology.
Deities having similar interests reflect their mortal worshippers. It's how a mortal would make sense of similar gods, not because the gods themselves are the same entity. Poor Set is one of the most prominent victims of this, as he was a benign deity that slowly became evil over time thanks to how his portfolio was perceived (IRL, not in D&D).
In D&D, deities mingling together is fairly common. Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with three other deities of wealth, Lathander and the Vedic power Ushas live in the same realm, Wee Jas and Mystra 1 were friends, etc.
Also, the Vanir being Celtic is really stretching. Nothing ties them to the Celts IRL, much less in D&D. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 02:07:35
But Sleyvas, WHY do gods who are 'friends with benefits' have to be from the same pantheon? In D&D, we have set living with Tiamat now - Sumerian and Pharonic (and supposedly on two different sides in many Mulan wars... although those two never followed the rules anyway).
And I have it from Wikipedia - NOT and D&D wiki - that Set has fathered children (RW mythology) in TWO other pantheons (at least two, IIRC). Even stepping outside of D&D and gaming, gods have been know to 'have affairs' with gods of other pantheons. And Silvanus was actually NAMED by the Romans, because the Celts had so many different regional names for their gods that the Romans 'codified' it all and rolled it into their pantheon.
And since you brought up Heimdal - the Norse deities are comprised of TWO different pantheons - the Aesir, of whom we know a great deal, and the Vanir, of whom we know very little (that's what happens to the 'losers' in a war). If anything, the Vanir are Celtic (fey) interlopers themselves, which would be Frey, Freya, and their father Njörđr - all 'battle-captives' of the Aesir. Also, just now checking Wikipedia again (because I can never spell Njörđr), I see that frey is considered the same deity as Isis by some historians (further indications of some sort of primordial war between the Norse/Northern European ethnic groups and the Indo-European ones).
I keep saying it - pantheons are a wholly mortal creation. The gods are really all just one big group. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 17:04:29
-Markustay
-sleyvas
Well, I in middle of this - I agree the Jhaamdathan Empire and civilisation, had elements of the Greeco-Roman civilization, but like sleyvas stated, I don't think it's not the only influence.
Jhaamdath reminds me of Atlantis, up to being sank as a punishment, if by elves, not gods. Jhaamdath, being a psionic civilisation, reminds me further of more science-fiction depictions of Atlantis. As well as maybe the society presented in Platp's Republic, guardians/rulers being replaced with Psiarchs.
About Talos being from the Jhaamdathan pantheon - it might fit, as Talos, in his most original form, was reported as the god of Sun and Storms on Crete, being described by Ancient Greeks as the equivalent of Zeus and Helios, and after the Hellenization of Crete, Zeus was worshiped there in his solar form as "Zeus Tallaios". This might very probably be why Ed named his god of of storms Talos. Anther interesting thing is, aside from partly being based on Odin, this also might be the source of Talos' one eye - the eye being the sun.
Although I think the god "Talos", is pretty much dead - the Talos we know, is pretty much identical to the Netherese/Northern Kozah, and I think Kozah simply uses Talos name, like Targos uses the name Garagos (also another Jhaamdathan deity subsumed by a Netherese/Northern God - Targos).
Crete, ties us back to Atlantis - many think the Ancient Cretean civilization is the base for the myth of Atlantis, with the , mostly sunk Santorini/Thera, inspiring the myth of Atlantis sinking.
Auppenser reminds me much more of Coeus/Koios, the Intelligence And Mental Resolve, and pobably Astral Oracles; or Vafthrudnir the Jotunn of great intelligence and wisdom, who was only beat by Odin in the battle of wits.
But as sleyvas noted, we have some Celtic, and Norse/Germanic looking entities in Jhaamdathan pantheon. Aside from Sylvanus (although Sylvanus was a Roman god, the Forgotten Realms version is pretty much the Gaulish God Sucellus, basically a version of Dagda and/or Cernunos (with which Silvaus was identified in D&D materials, if I remember right), and Oghma (also strongly implied to have some presence in the Jhaamdathan pantheon.), as mentioned, Tyr, Torm annd Tyr, variouslt tying to the Norse mythology, tied with Oghma we have Milil, who by Ed's own admission, has some traits of Bragi; possibly Eldath, who greatly resembles Celtic River and Lake goddesses like Danu, or Brigit/Brigid. It's also notable Brigid was the daughter of Dagda (related to Silvanus), and Eldath is a daughter figure to Silvanus. Valigan indeed has similarities to Loki - especially that Vali, was the name of Loki's sons, and Loki had two brothers, possibly tying to Valigan being called the Thirdborn. Valigan was the God of anarchy, and D&D (somewhat incorrectly) identifies Anarchy with Chaos (ie Chaotic traits being decribed as "Anarchic").
(Brigid, also had some curious overlap with her ancestor, Danu, but such overlaps did happen quite with deities).
The Celtic/Post-Celtic-like nations of Dales and Cormyr, are ultimatelly largelly desended from Jhaamdathan/Chondathan settles, further driving the Celtic connection.
The Celtic, and Germanic connections, also drive us back to Atlantis - Ed was in part inspired by the works of Robert Howard, with Mulhorand being more Stygia-like originally, and the Set worshiped there, was meant to be the Apep-like Set of Robert Howard's universe (who was almost certainly the same as Lovecraft's Yig).
In the Conan, and Kul universe, Atlanteans, after the fall of their civilidation, became Cimmerians, and Cimmerians in turn, became the ancestors of Celtic and Germanic tribes (the Germanicones, by mixing with the Vanis and Aesir).
In a thread long ago, I theorized if there maybe wasn;t a connection between Jhaamdath, and the Talfir. The "Telfir" language, was confirmed by Tom Costa to be meant to be the Talfiric language, and it's in the Akalaic subgroup of the Chessan languages, with the Akalic languages spoken among places in post-Jhaamadathan territories, like Sespech. This, along with the Celtic connections I mentioned above, made me think if there maybe was a connection between the Jhaamdathan/Chondathan peoples, and the Talfiric peoples, especialy seeing the Tethir forest, were the Talfir once lived possibly (as the Tethen), is also called Wealdath, tying to Jhaamdath, and Chondath.
It's also notable with Eldath, that Eldath, the Myrloch Vale on the Moonshae isles, is connected to Eldath, tying Eldath possibly to the original Ffolk, who were explicedly of Talfiric origin.
Another very curious connection, is that the drudic language of Drueidan originated on Ilighôn and Wavecrest, that were once part of Jhaamdath. But Drueidan, is a part of the Waelan language group, spoke by the Ffolk. The original Ffolk who spoke Waelan, as I mentioned, were of Talfiric stock.
So to sum up, I think that while Jhaamdath has visible Greco-Roman influence, they weren't exclusive, with me thinking the Jhaamdath pantheon, and Empire, was something of a primary Greco-Roman/Celtic mix, with some Germanic/Norse elements. (which curuously, includes many of the primary cultures within the European part of Roman Empire...) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 01:06:31
I'd just like to recommend not trying to shoehorn an earth pantheon into Jhaamdath. I understand the want, as I've thought the same thing. I also get that your saying its "like" the same gods. I'd more recommend a collection of various interloping deities from a number of pantheons. So, Murdane and Helm are supposed to be a thing from what I recall. So, that puts Helm in the pantheon, and I'm pretty adamant that Helm is Heimdall (guards heaven by standing at the top of a rainbow staircase... guardian god... name so close its silly NOT to associate him... and he has an affinity for goats/rams). So, maybe Murdane is Snotra, the little known Norse goddess of wisdom (though some may recognize the name from the Allmighty Johnsons). We also have Tyr showing up.... and I've personally equated Valigan Thirdborn to Loki. Lathander COULD be Apollo, but he could just as well be Frey, or he could be a Mayan sun god or even some kind of personification of a great Phoenix from the bird pantheon. At the same time, we have other gods like Silvanus and Oghma who also fit the pantheon, but they're Celtic. Sune could be Venus, but could also just as easily be Freya.... or she could just as well be some other deity like Kiltzi from Maztica. So, I'd rather recommend that they're a collection of interlopers from several other pantheons who simply worked well together.
As to making it more psionic/intellectual palatable Oghma, Murdane, Auppenser, all fit. You could also have the red knight as a favored deity in the area, and that her worship fell off making her weaker when so many Jhaamdathii died (much like Auppenser).... and if you were to push the Norse influence, she would fit well as Sif in the realms (both for red and for strategy). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 20:07:19
If there is one 'nerd thing' I steer further away from than Giant Robots, its MLP.
Getting back to the original topic - I am thinking more & more that the Jhaamdath pantheon may have been a clone of the Greco-Roman ones. Like, it was mostly them, but under more 'Realmsian' aliases (and probably slightly different looks/aspects and agendas from the Earth counterparts). And probably many of them died-off (just became estiges in Realmspace) after the Fall of Jhaamdath.
Of curse, then you'd think Poseidon would have done something about that... unless he was in on it. Unlike the silly Disney version, it was really always poseidon that plotted against Zeus.
Hmph - here's a stray thought: What if all gods really are are just uber-psionicists? Like, 'Franklin Richards' class psionics (but not THAT powerful LOL). They've just unlocked something (if they are ascended mortals, otherwise it should have always been available) that allows them to manipulate the 'illusion' of reality (because 'reality' is the greatest illusion of them all). Or maybe more like neo in The Matrix - you can 'see' the sourcecode of the universe and make changes on the fly.
Anyhow, I thought of that as I was trying to figure on a good way to make the Greek pantheon more palatable to a psionics-based culture. Athena is a natural - maybe she was Murdane? Zeus as Auppenser is a stretch, but it could work. Maybe FR had a more 'mature' aspect - one that choose a path of reason over primal lusts). And as I've said repeatedly in multiple threads, these 'aspects' may as well be completely different Gods than the originals - they are independent and self-powering, once they are 'released' into a new Crystal Sphere.
So we could possibly have Silvanus, tyche, Sune (Venus/Aphrodite), Auppenser (Greatly changed Zeus), Murdane (FR Athena), Poseidon (he is NAMED IN CANON), who I also believe is Seshalas, so it all works (and also the Norse Njörđr, who was actually a Vanir - an Elf god!). There are some others - we have the same duality in Aumanator and Lathader as the Greeks had in Helios and Apollo (AND I also think Aumantor is just an FR-aspect of Ra - Amun-Ra). Selűne could be Hecate (either an aspect, or she simply answered prayers under that name; Hecate being her Earth equivalent and part of the greater 'Moon/Magic Archtype')
I'm thinking something like Merkuros for Hermes, who later absorbed by Shar's kid Mask (which is why I went with the Latin for that one - more phonetically similar).
We actually have Dionysius, but he became a saint under Ilmatar in order to survive (who is some weird blend of Issek of the jug and Ilmatar - perhaps Issek emigrated to the Realms, found a dying aspect of Ilmatar - who still had a known presence in the Realms - and absorbed it, and so took the name and few followers left and respun it into something closer to his own portfolio). So basically, 'Saint dionysius' is a Exarch (lessened true deity) who went to work for a pretender and interloper himself - Issek. In fact, it would be fun to spin most of Issek's/Ilmater's 'Saints' as depowered aspects of other gods.  |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 19:29:15
- Wooly Rupert
Yup, we got revealed XD
- LordofBones
I get what you mean, but in many myths, gods are also more vulreable than it seems. Loki was scarred by dwarves, giving him a glasgow smile, and was to have his head cut by them, if not for his trickery.
Ares was tied in chains and put him in a bronze urn for 13 months in Greek mythos.
This is a direct contrast to the gods cosmic feats.
With Tirek, it's possible Tirek just controlled how damaging will be their attacks - especially that the comic shows Tirek originates from the same world. Chrysalis gorged herself on love before her fight with Celestia, and was surprised she overpowered her. And in the comic (although the comics canon is a bit doubtful) - the holes she and other Changelings have - those are scars of a previous fight with Celestia. Applejack in the comics, lassoed the moon thanks to Celestia's and Luna's magic:
https://derpibooru.org/288355
Sombra was extremely powerfull himself, and wasn't a normal pont per see, but the last free Umbrum, and fillled with their power.
And Celestia and Luna are meant to be based on divine figures - Celestia is named after the term originating as a name of several divine figures, Caelus/Caelum (The Roman God of Sky, and equivalent f Uranus, but only retroactivelly so - Caelus was probably originally an aspect/name of Jupiter, or Summanus (the Nocturnal Thunder God), who allready is considered the Cthonic/Nocturnal aspect of Jupiter), or the goddess Caelestis (syncretized with Venus, as Venus Caelestis, although Caelestis appears to be an adoption of Near Aestern Goddess like Astarte and Isis, who were named "The Queen of Heaven"); while Luna is named the Roman Goddess of Moon, and was to be originaly named Selene (after the Hellenic Moon Goddess).
Discord in turn, is in many ways a male version of Eris (his female fan version is even called so), who was known as Discordia, often even anglicized as "Discord". Although he also has elements of many other Tricksters, including him sifting between the roles of a hero and villain.
And as I mentioned, the obvious MLP version of Lolth, Insidira the Spider Queen
https://derpibooru.org/1624507
(even living in a location based on Underdark - the the Umber Deepths, and and it's implied she could corrupt Umberfoal ponies into essentially the MLP version of drow, and started it essentially with Alethea) also isn't a goddess/Fiendish Paragon, but is evidently meant to be based on Lolth. Especially that is was stated Insidira can finaly die of old age, just is extremelly long lived.
(Although this is the case divinities in some myth and religion, like Deva in Buddhism, although they meant to be in a fashion "false gods").
Queen Chrysalis and the Changelings also were noted by fans to have some similarity to drow, especially that the official episode guide stated she and other Changelings got corrupted/trasformed into their first seen state, and the purrified, fairy-like/deer-like Changelings purified by Thorax, are the Changelings original, uncorrupted state (compare the transformation of Araushnee into Lolth, and Dark Elves into Drow).
Although in turn, Insidira the Spider Queen seems to recall Lolth's original, Greyhawk origin, were she was a Demon Lord who infiltrated the elven pantheon, seeing Insidira is pretty much an alien
In the end, yes, the characters in MLP wouldn't fit as Powers/Deities under the D&D definition of term, but are evidently inspired by divine entities, from myth, or even D&D itself, and I just see the similarities between he stories of Selune and Shar, and Celestia and Luna.
But maybe let's end the MLP dscussion, as it got quite of topic, even for discussions here
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 15:06:48
We know who the brony is... |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 14:50:09
While that is true, it should be noted that cutie marks are tied to a pony's talent, rather than a pony's combat ability. Twilight with the combined powers of Sunbutt, Moonbutt and Heartbutt was definitely not throwing around firepower implied by casual manipulation of planetary bodies, and in the comics Applejack lassoed the moon. I guess that Celestia was forced to learn how to move the moon by herself, and in layman's terms she succeeded on her Spellcraft check to learn how, her Concentration check to move the moon and her Fortitude save to avoid negative effects of moving the moon without the specific feat.
We also see this multiple times; Celestia and Luna are nearly defeated by a blizzard, Celestia has to enlist Spike and the royal guard to fight off a kaiju cockatrice invasion, Queen Chrysalis manages to defeat and imprison Candence and while topped off on love slapped down Celestia in full view of Canterlot's elite, Nightmare Moon's attack on Celestia is just a couple of energy blasts, and King Sombra stalemates Luna and Celestia and still has enough mojo to banish his Empire to the future in time for his resurrection, while his diminished ghost wears down Cadence's shield.
Twilight is powerful, but that's because she's a high-level wizard, not because she's an alicorn. Celestia (and Luna) is powerful because she's an ancient immortal sorceress-queen, not because she can control the sun. Only Discord is innately powerful as a result of his intrinsic nature - he's an epic level monster, not an epic level character like Moonbutt, Glorious Sunbutt and Twilight "I'm the Reason Insurance Companies Cry" Sparkle. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 13:18:03
-LordOfBones
Well, this is why I wrote theogony (origin of gods, or godlike beings), rathar than cosmogony (origin of the universe).
And in The Journal of the Two Sisters, it was shown controlling the sun and moon, was very hard for unicorns, and it aged Star Swirl from young to very old.
Celestia and Luna in turn, can with ease move celestial bodies. And they can do so despite their cutie marks - Celestia moved the moon for a thousand of years, which is opposte to her cutie mark in nature. Luna also moved the stars in the sky.
Discord, as a being of chaos, could be also seen as analogous to Primordials, who are even connected to the Elemental Chaos.
Dunno to me there still are some visible similiratities...if accidental.
- sleyvas
Yup, and it's why it became so popular simce 2011. Interesting, isn't it  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 10:57:20
Wait.... there's an actual plot to My Little Pony? |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 04:10:51
Sure, if you take it at face value. Meanwhile, looking at it in-depth, it's another story entirely.
Additionally, the Elements of Harmony book isn't actually factual. Discord predates the princesses, and we know that unicorns were doing the sun/moon moving before Sunbutt and Moonbutt took over. If anything, Luna and Celestia are analogous to archmages rather than a cosmic creation story. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 22:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There is something profoundly soul-shattering about Aslan and Twilight Sparkle being primal anythings.
And how you will react Friendship is Magic, and Forgotten Realms, have a similar theogony?
At the beging there were two sisters. One light, one dark. The dark sister eventually grew malicious/insane from despair, and decided to kill all life, in an eternal night. There is possible primordial being of darkness, influenced the dark sister.
And I speaking here about Selune and Shar, or Celestia and Luna/Nighmare Moon?
Although one could say Friendship is magic, is more like a mirror universe of Forgotten Realms, as Luna (embodiment of the moon), became big bad for a thousand years, while Celestia is connected to the sun, and controls it, which arguably likens her to Shar - after all, Shar is much like a black hole, all consuming, and black holes, are dead suns...
Like Mystras and Mystryl, Twilight Sparkle had a predecesor - Sunset Shimmer - with also a mirroring name. And Mystra "replaced" Lurue, if in a meta sense...
[EDIT]
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, also has a fairly direct counterpart to Lolth:
https://derpibooru.org/1624507 |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 03:21:05
There is something profoundly soul-shattering about Aslan and Twilight Sparkle being primal anythings. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:25:48
Well, the thing is, known Northen/Illuskan influence, is there after Torm's first recoded activity (-256 DR) - first Illuskans going to Dambrath (-69 DR), and invasion of the Utter East (600s DR).
Although the staetement:
quote:
Belief in the Adama promotes the tenets of the faiths of Zionel (Gond), Curna
(Oghma), Lucha (Sęlune), Torm, and Waukeen.
Is not abour which gods were worshipped in the faith of Adama since the start, but an overall information.
Still though, the Kingdom of Veldorn was founded in –241 DR, before the arrival of Illuskans in the region, and before the possible first record of Torm.
But I think Torm could be from a Jhaamdath or another tribe/country, and the Norse name of Torm is due to the influence of Tyr's religion.
It's also notable, Northmen/Illuskans, were originally intended to come from South, so it's possble they were related to the Jhaamdathans, or at least had interractions in ancient times, as explained by George Krashos:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You guys want to read the first couple of pages of FR5 The Savage Frontier to see how the original rise of humans in the North occurred. Canon has deviated somewhat from what is in there, but the main points are that originally North as we know it was dominated by the humans known as the Ice Hunters. The people of Netheril appear to have "always been there" but then finally unified together and swiftly grew in power thanks to the Art, and the Northmen were actually from the South.
As to that last point, given what we knew of the racial types present in the lands south of the Delimbiyr, it was difficult to reconcile a "tall, fair-haired warlike race" coming from Calimshan.
With Ao though, I think he is anything resembling Anu from Mesopotamian mythology.
Ao is connected to stars (Anu is the God, and embodiment of Sky), and Anu had the Tablets of Fate (on which the ones that caused the Time of Troubles sem to be based on), and is a distand god, akin to the role of an Overgod, and left most of the respobcibilities of the chief God to Enlil or Marduk (depending on period).
Ed was asked about it, but THO stated he doesn't know, not being Ao's creator, and suggested asking Scott Ciencin, or Troy Denning. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 21:59:16
Interesting.
I think this is a perfect time to apply Occam's Razor - we already have a 'long lost {fallen} kingdom' in the eastern Shaar - Veldorn. Just because its called that now (since the monsters took it over) doesn't mean that was always its name. So lets say Chalsembyr 'fell' for whatever reason, and then some 'shady types' took it over, but eventually their own monstrous allies took it from them, and it became 'The Beastlands'.
There is some cool stuff down there we could possibly connect it to, like The Castle of Al'Hanar. What if those knights were originally Tyr's or Torm's, and they were 'perverted' by Myrkul (or Jergal)? Like maybe there was a Paldin-esque kind of kingdom blossoming down there, but it was short lived (a century or two), before the 'forces of evil' moved against them, and at the same time, there was 'rot within'. Something like that.*
And then a few survivors may have fled toward Ulgarth, which would explain the European-like feudal culture going on there, when there is nothing like that anywhere else in the area.
Also, we have 'Norse' (Northmen) in that region, in the Utter East. Konigheim was settled by them. There is even a Northmen operating out of the Corsair Islands down in Zakhara (Al-Qadim canon).
So, after reading some deeper stuff about the Norse creation myths, there was actually a trio of gods (Aesir) who 'built the cosmos' Odin, Vili & Ve. Everyone always seem to forget about the other two. Since Odin represents 'The Sky', I would hazard to guess the other two may have represented earth/firmament (Midgard) and 'The Waters'. Nothing I read - it just seems strange to me the Norse would have had these three, when just Odin would have sufficed. Unfortunately, almost nothing is known about them. So here's my current thoughts (barely the tiniest fragment of an idea) - I've equated Nobanion and Lurue to two integral parts of 'the Creation'. They may even be vestiges of something else. So what if Vili & Ve are just Norse=specific names for the 'Lion and the Unicorn"? So they go about the D&Dverse collecting the 'Cosmic Soup' into Crystal Spheres; Lurue representing 'Raw Magic', and Nobanion representing Will (the concept of forcing 'Law' onto something - to bring forth order from chaos, which ties him to the whole Lion/Royalty thing). Not sure what part Odin plays, then, but perhaps Odin = Ao? Nobanion/Aslan forces matter and energy together into a ball, Lurue 'blows on it' to breath life into it, and as it coalesces in a Crystal Sphere, Ao(din) sets the rules or whatever? Something along those lines? Thus we have Odin, Vili, & Ve creating the Spheres after the Arch of Heaven (and the First World) were destroyed.
Of course, then in my own Overcosmology I'd have to make the three of them Eternals, because thats way too much power for a normal 'God' (but still less than necessary for a Supernal). Norse Odin seems to be all-powerful at times, and fairly weak at others. its confusing. A dude that can create a universe definitely outclasses Marvel-Odin (maybe - they did some stuff with the Aesir after I stopped reading - there was some sort of 'Council of High Gods', or some-such).
*EDIT:
I just realized - 'Medieval Knights' in a Middle-Eastern like region sounds a LOT like the Knights Templar. Maybe there is an 'Ark of the Covenant' type relic hidden down there somewhere in old Chalsembyr? |
| Baltas |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 18:50:55
Well, the thing is, Torm is curiously a Norse name, short form of Tormod/Tormodr, literally "Thor's Courage", or "Thunder's Courage".
Torm's mutal kill with Bane, also reminded me of various mutual kills during the Ragnarok (which the Time of Troubles a bit was) - Tyr and Gramr; Thor and Jormungandr/the Midgar Serpent; Loki and Heimdall.
Torm's rebirth, and elevation, can in turn be compared to Baldr's return and elevatio (if Torm's elevation is kinda lesser).
So Torm in many ways come of to me as Tyr's own version of Thor, seeing Tyr is something of a father figure to Torm. And while Tyr is the main Paladin and Lawfull Good Power, Torm seeims more popular, at least in some ways, like Thor was more popular than Odin in some ways. We even had Torm take over Tyr's position, like Thor did a few times in Marvel comics.
Especially that some think Tyr, is on some level, the same deity as Odin, the god/power just having two faces (just war (Tyr) and unjust war (Odin)). This is based on Mitra-Varuna dvanda, as these two were technically two separate gods, yet so closelly connected. With Tyr being Mithra, and Odin - Varuna.
Multiple of Odin (many) names had "Tyr" in them, possibly further cemeting the connection between them, but it's sommewhat problematic, as Tyr can as well refer to any god, as it literally means "God". Although I did find researchers tying some to Tyr specifically - like Hangatyr - the Hanged God/God of the Hanged, which not only alluded to Odin being hanged from Yddgrasil, but also him coming to the hanged crminals, getting information from them before death. The thing is, this aproaches of Tyr's sphere of influence - justice and law.
This though, connects a bit to Durpar, seeing the "Vedic" connections I mentioned above.
So I allways thought of Torm as a human worshipper of Tyr, from somewere (hence posibly even the name). But in context, Torm could could been originally a wemic, but I think he allways had a connection to Tyr, and is an ascended worshipper of The Maimed God... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 15:23:02
Given this information.... that Bertold's seekings of Torm's original kingdom while holding Chalsembyr's Heart led him down to the southern section of the Eastern Shaar... well, it kind of makes me wonder if the kingdom of Chalsembyr wasn't down in the Shaar.... and even, was he possibly not even human. Maybe he was a wemic. At the same time, many of the Mulan gods also have ties to lions, so while I'm not saying he might be an interloping Mulan god.... he might have come from an area where lion motifs were very much part of local religions. We also know that his first mention is in -256 DR in regards the start of the spreading of the teachings of the Adama down in Durpar (where its said that the Adama faith promotes several gods ethos).
From GHotR entry for -256 DR
Belief in the Adama promotes the tenets of the faiths of Zionel (Gond), Curna (Oghma), Lucha (Sęlune), Torm, and Waukeen.
|
| NieveMac |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 09:17:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Precisely, Wooly. I would just say that there was a lion-statue in Torm's temple because that was an older, more primal representation of the god, thus just reaffirming the theory he may have a relationship to Asl... Nobanion.
As I think I said above, I would spin him as an exarch of the ancient primal power - a 'saint' that humans would feel more at home worshiping. When the original 'Lion God' left Toril (maybe during the Sundering, or possibly later), he left behind his Chosen, and Torm was among them (and may be the only survivor, or other Faerűnian powers may also have been ex-Chosen of Nobanion... although I think that name/alias is only a recent affectation).
When the 'Beast King' god returned (which may have had to do with the fall of Mystryl, or the Dawn Cataclysm), Torm was already a full Greater God in his own right. The two would have a good relationship, but that's probably as far as it goes. In other words, its been so long that its probably not even possible to simply reabsorb that power back into himself (without a major fight), and why would he want to? Two 'gods of good' are better than one.
EDIT:
Okay, we know who Nobanion is... what if his main purpose is to build worlds? He represents the raw 'physicality' of nature, whilst Larue represents the primal energy of it. Although 'the Gods' build the worlds/spheres, they use him as a sort of 'catalyst' to help congeal the proto-matter (the regathered bits of the first World) into planets. He also shows up whenever there is an instability within the sphere, in order to use his power to 'reset' the structure to a more stable environment (so, whenever there is 'cosmic chaos', like during the ToT, or Spellplague, or the other two major events I mentioned above). He's like the 'template' that they can roll things back to.
That fits with his nature in FR, his "on again, off again" appearances, what we know of his 'true' nature, and also his relationship with Larue (the two aspects of the Prime Material - Elements & Energies). He's the dude who can make a streetlamp grow like a tree.
He's 'Creation' personified.
One small point of order to you and Woolly: according to Tantras, the second book of the Avatar trilogy, the lion statue in question was brought to Torm's temple by his priesthood from a ruined and abandoned temple of Waukeen in the city. So as much as you make some very interesting connections between Torm and Nobanion via the lion statue and Torm's lion-headed avatar he created from it, I'm afraid the statue itself says nothing about Torm's possible primal origins or a connection to Aslan. Why Waukeen had such a statue in her temple is never explained, although I would guess it has to do with the fact that as goddess of merchants and money she would naturally have an affinity for anything associated with the upper class (lions=kings) or riches in general (lions being usually gold-colored). Or perhaps it's because of her appearance, which has always seemed vaguely Egyptian to me.
That said, there is another possible connection between Torm and Nobanion, or at least something which could explain Torm's avatar and his affinity for lions besides bravery and nobility fitting the god of paladins. Champions of Valor details the magical artifact known as Chalsembyr's Heart, named for the kingdom where Torm served when he was a mortal. The sword was created by clerics of the faith to help locate Chalsembyr (many Tormites believe their deity has hidden the location as part of a test of their faith, and that if they find it they will receive great wisdom and divine power). And one of this artifact's most prominent features is a leonine motif--where the cross guard and blade meet is the raised head of a lion face-on on one side and in profile on the other, and the cross guards themselves are lion's paws. So perhaps lions were part of the heraldry or coat-of-arms of Chalsembyr and this is why Torm has a connection with lions. Chalsembyr predates the arrival of Nobanion on Toril, but perhaps his more primordial self still has a connection with the kingdom... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 May 2017 : 02:25:17
Its just real basic. It gets multiplied by how much actual 'Faith' the character has. Just being level twenty shouldn't provide that much more than level one unless you are actively promoting your deity: ie., "Blood and souls for Arioch!"
My favoritist character of all time used to scream that every time he went into battle. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 May 2017 : 23:16:36
just a note, your formula for elan needs some work. It should be something like the square or cube of the character's level, or some other formula that's not linear and gives much more of a boost for having powerful followers. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 May 2017 : 23:59:24
So now I am thinking of 'The Great Game' of the cosmos being played-out by the gods is akin to Risk, or more like one of those more complex wargames where certain 'territories' are worth more than others.
So basically, if we think of it in terms of Risk, the more territories you control (spheres you spread into), the more 'units' (Avatars) you can create. The more Avatars you can create, the more you can spread... but you run the risk of spreading too thin. DvR would be your unit-limit (how many 'pieces' you can put on each territory). You can only max-out at 20 in any one place (which works as a great equalizer - it doesn't matter how ancient or powerful a God is, he still has the same upward limit as anyone else... mostly.. of how many 'units' (Avatars/DvR's) he can use in a sphere. Gods like Mystra might learn to 'cheat' (meta-game?) by hiding some DvR's inside mortals (Chosen/demipowers), to artificially increase their DvR potential beyond twenty (Mystra min-maxes! She's a Power-Gamer!)
But what about 'production boosts'? Those territories you can take (in some games) that give you extra production? (in this case, Elan Points, which is what I call the energy of 'Faith'). Well, a High-Magic world would probably give you a boost, but why would that be in terms of how it all works? Well, suppose a god gets 1 Elan pt. per day per level of the mortal, on average (there are hundreds of other factors, but lets call that the 'base' for someone who has a God and pays it the minimum amount of lip-service per day). A High-Magic world tends to be a 'World of Heroes', so in most instances those are the ones that would be the most sought-after. A magically-dead world, like our Earth, probably isn't much of a prize (although it may have once been). Not a lot of High-Level characters running around here, in D&D game terms.
On the other hand, population probably also plays a large part. Even if you are getting the bare minimum per person, a planet with an extremely large pop. might be desirable whether it has magic or not. (so maybe Earth is still being fought-over?) A planet like Toril (or Oerth, or even tiny Krynn) has not only tons of humans, but has dozens if not hundreds of other intelligent races that could qualify as 'worshipers'. Of course, maybe there is also a 'quality' thing in regards to species as well (after all, one human worshiping you should be worth a dozen or so kobolds). Now I'm thinking about dragons - 'High level' in regards to pure power, but they aren't really all that great about the worshiping thing. Thus, the average human might be worth more elan than a powerful dragon (or maybe just the same, and humans outnumber dragons thousands to one).
So faith-wise, human worshipers might be the 'best bang for the buck' in regards to gods wanting followers. Dwarves and Elves would follow close behind, but they've got their own specific pantheons and are somewhat xenophobic. Gods making 'Grand Moves' in the multiverse, trying to take-over entire spheres (pushing-out, destroying, or absorbing other similar gods), and then you'd have things like Fiends that could be random unknowns (like barbarian raiders in some games, that don't belong to any other player but can still cause you some damage).
And now I'm thinking I want to play 'Great Wheel Risk' (Plaescape Risk?)
It might also make a helluva CCG... Hmmmm.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 19:02:08
I don't think we are seeing things all that different CorellonsDevout - I think in MANY cases, these 'Aspects' break-off from the main deity (in much the way sub-species diverge into entirely new species over time through evolution) and become 'their own thing'. For example, in the case of Herne and Malar both are aspects of some more primal 'Hunter God'. Malar seems the closer of the two to the archtype, while Herne seems to have become more 'civilized' and is something humans would have felt more comfortable worshiping. Both of these gods seem to be multispheric themselves*, and over time (untold millennia) the two have diverged so much they don't even recognize each other as the same being anymore. Hence the scene in Elaine Cunnigham's Evermeet novel where Malar kills Herne (and yet, we have evidence of Herne being around at a much later date in The Realms, so that was simply one version of 'Herne' that one version of 'Malar' killed and absorbed his power). In fact, we might even assume that the Malar in that story (because of the other events taking place) was THE Malar - The primal hunter archtype, who was simply 'collecting' some of his wayward (and offensive to him) aspects. The further an aspect is separated from the original, and the more time mortal religion has to shape the aspect, the more it becomes its own, new deity. If all this holds true, then part of the 'cosmic Struggle' of the gods includes them keeping track of all these "minnie-me's" running around, and them trying to keep their faiths 'on-track' (because divergence would lead to a break-away, and a loss of power). This could be one reason why most gods just concentrate on one, or just a handful of worlds, rather than try to be everywhere at once - even a God would have limits to how much control it could exert over its own faith when they are spread thin like that. The tighter the focus, the tighter the control. It may be that Bane lost control of Toril for a time when he became multispheric, and thats why Xvim was able to seize his church. That would go a long way in answering the question: "Why don't all gods go multispheric?" (for the same reason why human empires tended to crumble when they spread themselves too thin).
I can't believe my footnote was longer than my post - sorry. 
*I don't even like the concept of 'multispheric' anymore. Let's think of Gods as 'Supers': One of their powers is to create autonomous clones (so maybe Naruto Ninja? LOL). They are constantly creating these things (and I think the power-level of them is completely adjustable - the ones written-up in 2e were just the 'standard model') to send out on various missions (liaisons, battles, impress the Faithful, etc). They normally just real them back in when they are done, but some are on 'deep' assignments, like developing a following in a new sphere. After a time the Archtype god repairs/recovers the loss of that bit of power, and it may even forget about that Avatar after awhile (after all, they are literally thinking of thousandss of things all at once - (D&D) gods are NOT infallible). They may even think they 'lost it' - that probably happens a lot. Some local power kills the avatar for stepping on its turf. They are so used to this attrition that they probably just shrug it off (these uber-multispheric archtypes, I mean). But some of these Autonomous Avatars may have just diverged so far from the original they break-away, and become something new.
My point is, that the whole 'multispheric' thing as we've known it in the past is a sham, really. It never really worked right even in 2e. 'The Gods' in Planescape, for the most part, should be the archtypes, and the ones that are sphere-specific are precisely that; clones of the original operating on their own. The trick for these archtype gods is to try and keep these Avatars as close to their original selves as possible, and that means more 'hands on', which is a juggling game, considering everything else a God has on its plate (so only a very foolish - or ancient - Power would try to spread into more than one new sphere at a time). So now that Bane is back in FR (that happened in 3e, didn't it?), that may have just been the Archtype (Core) Bane sending another avatar to Realmspace to reestablish control over his church. That doesn't make our (FR) Bane any less real, it just means its connection to its Great-Wheel self isn't as cut-&-dried as we once thought.
And I can definitely see how all of this would rub Realms fans the wrong way, because for you guys its all about FR, and the D&D/TSR/WotC stuff is secondary. But for someone like me, who 'came over' from another setting himself (does that make ME an interloper? ), I have to try and reconcile all this 'multi-world' over-setting stuff with what we know of local (setting-specific) lore AND RW mythology. 2e did a bang-up job with Planescape, but I think it could be better. If anything, it adds a whole 'nother level of intrigue to the Cosmology (powerful beings trying to subjugate/absorb/corrupt avatars of other beings, etc). Just picture Shar corrupting a version of Lathander - Darkhander. That would be pretty cool, no? I even recall a canon story (I think by Ed!) wherein an avatar of Mystra (I think) was captured by Sharites who were trying to 'corrupt' it. So maybe I'm not very far off base with all of this. Maybe if you corrupt enough 'pieces' of an Archtype God, you can corrupt the God itself (some sort of negative feedback loop). Another reason of why gods need to be VERY careful how thin they spread themselves.
Just more food for thought. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 12:44:02
There is a lot of theoretical work one could do on gendered and sexless deities, specially due to real mythologies often got genderless, or ambiguous origin deities. In real life, its often the creators, titans, first gods of chaos powers who is dual gendered or androgynous. The later "ordered" gods and goddesses got real genders. And D&D's Primordials, and a lot of the chaotic or monstrous deities certainly fits! |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 06:04:54
Your point about the gods being "sexless" goes along with one of the points I made in my previous post. They appear to mortals in forms we understand. The Seldarine, for example, are often depicted as both male and female, though they often "appear" as one or the other, as a "preferred" form.
As I said, I am not entirely adverse to Markustay's idea, I just like the idea of a "broad" pantheon, if you will, and not just for mortal perception. Or, (I'll use the sun god as an example) perhaps there was originally one sun god, and it diverged into multiple entities, and these entities became individuals, so they are only now marginally connected to the original sun god (in this case by the fact that they represent the sun). So, Lathander is a different deity from the other sun gods (with the exception of maybe Amaunataur. I haven't fully figured that out yet), and he is his own "being", but he is connected to the other sun gods in the fact that he came from the original "overgod of the sun". This allows for the gods to be different entities with different personalities, but still connected by an overgod. And, since some of the gods created the races, and thus came before mortals, then the mortals couldn't have "conceived" them. The race's culture is shaped by the deity as much as the deity may be shaped by the culture.
For immigrant deities, it -could- be explained by the entities/aspects of the original overgod moving to another world, and by this point they would be separate enough from the overgod. In the case of deities being absorbed by other deities, they could be absorbing other "aspects" of an overgod, if we continue with the overgod idea. Another reason I prefer the "broad pantheon" approach is that there are different ways gods can be created. The overgod concept might explain the existence of the older deities, but deities can also give birth to other deities, and mortals can become deities. It's not a "one size fits all", and I think it is even more complicated than deities all being aspects of each other. Again, I am not completely adverse to the deities stemming from an overgod of sorts (like an original deity of the sun), but, as I stated in this post, they got to the point where they are separate deities, with their own personalities (to the point where they could even rebel against the overgod, if they chose), even if they represent the same thing (the sun in this case) and have similar portfolios. Because the gods are "unknowable", then it makes equal sense that they are in fact each their own being, and the deities in each pantheon are separate from the deities in other pantheons who have similar portfolios. Because the planes are in fact vast, and they allow for the existence of multiple sun gods, whether an original sun overgod created them, or whether they came from something else entirely. So, even if they did come from a single entity of the sun at one point, they are no longer tied to that being. They have their own followers, belong to their own pantheons, realms, etc.
Overgods do come into play at some point, of course (Ao, for instance), but I'm going back and forth on the idea of the deities stemming from a more "condensed" pantheon of overgods, which then created more deities. It isn't my go-to, but I'm open to it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 04:23:55
@CorellonsDevout and Sleyvas - Lathander = rebirth = 'The Phoenix' all still works.
Part of my Over-Cosmology musings is that these beings - in their natural state - don't actually look like what mortals see them as. In fact, their true forms might be 'beyond mortal ken', so when we mortals gaze upon them (or rather, their Avatars), what we are actually seeing is an illusion/projection within our own minds that 'masks' the true form which our brains can't handle (I'm starting to touch upon some of my RW theories on things like cryptids and paranormal phenomena). What this means is we have to throw out the entire concept of 'sex' for these beings; they might have a preference how they appear to their faithful (maybe based on the time they were mortal themselves), but I would imagine many of the more ancient powers would be androgynous. Thus, Lathander IS 'rebirth Incarnate', and in that can be Ushas, representing the rising sun each morning, and also The Phoenix, and even Jesus. Its a concept given sentience. WE mortals give it (physical) form when we choose to worship it.
So, if all that is true (the "gods are unknowable"), then everything we know about pantheons CorellonsDevout can also be true, in regards to mortal perception. Those 'rules' (the actual folklore/dogma of the mythos itself) will hold true whenever they manifest to a particular group. Loki might appear as Loki to folks worshiping the Norse pantheon, or as 'Coyote' amongst other cultures, or even as a gnome, or a small dragon (I don't feel like looking up those names). Since our perceptions are tainted by our preconceptions, people (mortals) will see and experience what they expect to (including the level of 'evil' they see in the god).
Thus all versions/pantheons can be true - and be unique from world to world or even from region to region - and at the same time there would be this 'Archtype' in the Great Wheel that would represent all these varying aspects. In FR - or any setting/region for that matter - the mortals would not understand any of this, so what we read in the setting guides - or RW mythology texts - IS true (for those people). It doesn't matter if a dozen or more sun Gods on Toril are really 'the same guy' somewhere up the foodchain, because it has no bearing on the setting at all. This 'Over-Cosmology' thing is more for Planescape/The Great Wheel, which has almost nothing to do with the day-to-day lives of mortals in The Prime Material. It doesn't really matter to the folks of Krynn if Takhisis is Tiamat or not.
The same, and yet different, all at the same time. We can have our cake and eat it too. |
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