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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 21:07:11
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I want to use this thread to coalesce all the random 'cosmological musings' we are currently doing in one neat place. I'd also lke to focus on revisiting a theorized Jhaamdath pantheon. You can read about some old thought on the subject HERE. To go with that, here's the preposed pantheon - DISCUSS
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Based on some previous threads, I come up with the below
Auppenser
Borem
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan Thirdborn
Waukeen
Murdane (goddess of Pragmatism and Reason)
Helm (Heimdall) - who was in love with Murdane
other strong possibilities
Tyr (though he came later than Jhaamdath, there's some references that imply he may have been here prior under slightly different names like Anachtyr)
Talos (as either another name for Kozah OR a Jhaamdath deity) OR
Bhaelros (he's been in nearby Calimshan for millenia)
Umberlee (in possible relation to Murdane's death)
Silvanus
Oghma
Jergal (only mentioning him because there's some assumptions that he may have been down in the Shaar)
Garagos
Loviatar
Lathander
Sune
Eldath
Hoar the Doombringer (interloping from Unther and Chessenta)
Mystryl (only because of magic)
Leira (because a goddess of illusion seems to fit this region... working on belief and the mind)
Melith (a deity of creativity found in Chessenta, of which we have nothing other than an entry in Old Empires just saying she has creativity and not Lathander)
Malar
BTW, I love this from something Gray Richardson wrote back in 2006
Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.
Together they bore (at least) 5 children:
Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)
Other Musings
In the "Norse-like Realm" thread we started discussing the Jhaamdath pantheon (hence this new thread), which lead me to an old thread, and someone (I forget who - Grey Richardson?) mentioned his error in considering Nobanion for the Jhaamdathi Pantheon, because of the time-frames involved.
So that got me thinking about not only WHEN Nobanion arrived, but also why. Which got me thinking that maybe there was a 'Banion' he showed up to stop (I like to play with words), and then what kind of being would he show up to oppose. Looking up natural predators/enemies of lions, the only one they really have is Hyenas (they will hunt even healthy lions when starved, and attack wounded or sick lions all the time). So then I went looking for a Hyena-headed god (I figured the Egyptians would have one, but NOPE - they had Jackals instead), I came across the only one... and guess who it is?
Yeenoghu! Our very own D&D came through for me. And what kind of creatures appear to lie in (and know all the ins-and-outs of) the Gulthmere (in one of Paul Kemp's novels)? Gnolls! And what creatures had a 'mighty empire' (Urgnarash) in The Shaar before humans ever showed up there? Gnolls! Which means there's a good chance the original (human) inhabitants of The Shaar - the Turami - would know about Yeenoghu (probably a few crumbling, ancient temples lying around), and the Turami main region in northern Faerūn today is Turmish - right next to the Gulthmere, and Nobanion's 'stomping grounds'!
So could someone have called him forth to Toril to battle a 'gnoll infestation' - that perhaps Yeenoghu (after loosing quite a bit of planer power) decided to rebuild his former status on Toril, and Nobanion (who we know is really Aslan) showed up and put a stop to all that? If so, why? Who could have called him? And who would have known about him?
WELL... Ed has stated in the past that he set-up Lurue and Nobanion to be the characters in 'The Lion and the Unicorn' poem. He always meant for them to be some sort of 'cosmic opposites', balancing each other out (Life/Mana to be used, and Life/Mana to be retained? Not sure how to spin that one - only Ed would know). But wouldn't that mean that Nobanion has to be an ancient power (and given his real identity, well... YEAH) - Lurue is 'primal', so too should be Nobanion.
So maybe Nobanion was around 'near the beginning' (he seems to like getting worlds started), but then left to go about other things (maybe he's in charge of coalescing all the escaped 'primal energy' into Crystal Spheres?), and then he left. But when his ancient enemy Yeenoghu started building a power-base in the realms, he showed up to stop it. And just maybe, he was part of the 'solution' the first time the gnoll empire (Urgnarash) fell. Thus, Nobanion (perhaps not as Nobanion) may not be new to The Realms at all. Its just been so long since he's revealed himself in FR humans forgot him, or never even knew him: I just now only realized that Urgnarash must have existed on the First World, because it predates the Sundering. Only the Creator Races would have known of him, and perhaps he helped Ao rebuild the world after it was sundered.
And maybe... he went to Abeir, while Lurue stayed to watch over Toril. 
"The lion and the unicorn
Were fighting for the crown
The lion beat the unicorn
All around the town.
<snip>
And when he had beat him out,
He beat him in again;
He beat him three times over,
His power to maintain."
All around? Running in circles? like two planets in the same exact orbit on opposite sides of the sun? 
And for further 'food for thought', because we seem to have gone down that path in other threads - could these two primal beings be the 'male & female' aspects of Ao?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2017 06:18:43
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 00:25:59
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Oh wait, I just realized, I thought it didn't include Savras. He doesn't fit purely based on timeline of when he would have ascended. He does totally fit the society, but he's from Halruaa.
I also almost included Sharess, just because of the number of cat people (wemics and cat folk) currently in the area... but then I think that may not have been the case back during the time of Jhaamdath.
On Nobanion, you read my mind. He was touched by the spellplague and "something bad happened to him". My take on it is one in which he transferred over, and his "shadow self" (much like eshowdow for Ubtao) appeared in the realms. It took the light of the chosen of Lathander to restore him.
During the Spellplague, Nobanion tried to save a pride of lions in Gulthandor from oncoming blue fire. He came in contact with the blue fire, and it mutated him into a dark and bestial lion with a mane of blue flame. In this state, he was held in subjugation by Malar. In 1486 DR, he was tasked by Malar to capture Stedd Whitehorn, the boy Chosen of Lathander, but Stedd and his companions healed him of his corruption by blue fire. He returned to his natural state, and introduced himself to Stedd and his companions. In his reinstated form, he was no longer under Malar's control. He guided the young Chosen through the wilds of Gulthandor. They parted ways just before Stedd and company entered Turmish.
Oh, also, I almost considered including Loviatar and Kiputytto.... I'm also not sure when Ilmater appeared, but he would fit. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 02:25:07
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Love it. If you haven't seen, try to find National Geographic's Eternal Enemies: Lions and Hyenas (best darn nature film I think I've ever seen)... or just watch Disney's The Lion King.
Of course, the Nobanion effectively dying in his corruption and his resurrection, bring him even closer to Aslan and a certain figure he was meant to represent. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 06:41:08
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Well, we might as well keep to the hand we're dealt.
As to why/when he came back - maybe it had something do with Mystryl as well. When that goddess stopped existing (and was replaced by Mystra), it removed whatever barrier was preventing him from interacting with Toril, thus his long absence.
Then when the Spellplague hit, he got shunted back to Abeir. Post 4e (or post-Sundering 2.0 - this is getting confusing), Ao resets everything, and pretty-much ALL the gods return... at least, the ones that were present during the 1e-2e period (so everyone both pre- and post-ToT).
This also makes both Lurue and Nobanion primordials, I would imagine. Or perhaps they were the earliest 'beast lords' to get elevated to true deity status (early creator races turning to beast-worship/shamanism before discovering/creating more complex forms of religion, and making their own gods in their image). Thus, their status as 'the King of (mundane) beasts', and the 'Queen of magical beasts' - they were the first.
Mystryl and Shar would have also had to have been around then (I was thinking they weren't), but they caused the destruction of that First World with their fight (the Creator Races were practically made extinct by the cold and darkness that ensued when the first sun was extinguished). On the other hand, if the creation Myths of the dragons are allegory, they could just be talking about a time when the sun was 'blocked out' for several years, which did happen here on Earth as well (massive meteor/comet strike, or super-volcano). We do know something very large plummeted to Toril and created the Inner Sea (and perhaps a bunch of other geographic phenomena).
Once again, there's something i'm just not quite putting my finger on. Two powers, two sisters, two suns, two worlds... everything needed to be 'separated'. Is Abeir just the biggest 'time out' in the multiverse?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2017 12:39:12 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 07:56:16
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Murdane is a goddess of reason and Auppenser is (at least titled) Lord of Reason, so it's hard for them to be in the same pantheon with the same portfolio.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Murdane
Garagos is the debased form of Targus, the Netherese god of war (Targus -> Gargus -> Garagos). No way is he in the Jhaamdathan pantheon when he's already established in the Netherese pantheon.
Here are some other stray "small gods", who knows where they go:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Poseidon
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khass
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Isakkhu
Plus all the loose ones from the Desert of Desolation modules.
But many gods can go into either a Jhaamdathan pantheon, a Talfirian pantheon, a lost Imaskari pantheon, or be interlopers, loners, or even self-aggrandising monsters, based on only speculation and guesswork. We'll never know for sure. Personally, I think pantheons are a bit overdone in Faerūn, but then I did just sort out all the major faiths of Kara-Tur for the wiki.
I'd kind of like Jhaamdath to have something a bit more unusual for its faith, something philosophically based or more closely linked to its psionics that marks it as different from the other empires of the time. The empire always had such a tension between peaceful reasoned cultivation and aggressive military expansion, it's tempting to have a two-god system that reflects that: Auppenser, god of reason, serenity, and enlightenment, opposed by a god of emotion, passion, and conflict. Maybe Lliira? :) |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 08:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Garagos is the debased form of Targus, the Netherese god of war (Targus -> Gargus -> Garagos). No way is he in the Jhaamdathan pantheon when he's already established in the Netherese pantheon.
Then why does he exist in the Border Kingdoms at Godswalk Keep in addition to Jergal and Sharess?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 11:05:34
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Why do Sharess and Jergal appear there? Just because they show up there for some unknown reason in modern times doesn't make them all pantheon buddies in the distant past.
Targus is Garagos because Garagos's write-up in P&P calls him Targus and largely copies Targus's write up in the Netheril box set. The Dawn of Time chapter in P&P also says Garagos/Targus is a Netherese god. It's pretty ironclad in the lore. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 13:05:17
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Where is Godswalk Keep from?
I agree that the existence of one locale doesn't actually mean there were any other connections. After all, early Drow used to worship some weird amalgam version of Ghaunadaur and Lolth, and they have no other connections other than both being worshiped by Drow. Mortals love their heresies.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Here are some other stray "small gods", who knows where they go:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Poseidon
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khass
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Isakkhu
Plus all the loose ones from the Desert of Desolation modules.
I've always figured Poseidon and Deep Sashelas were the same guy - its simple and it all works out. Whatever non-elves take to worshiping him on various worlds have their own names for him.
And the Olympian and Elven pantheon have always been closely associated.
Khass sounds like a fake deity (and sounds like Kos from the Newhon Mythos), and Isakkhu sounds more like a hero-god. He also sounds 'eastern'.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I'd kind of like Jhaamdath to have something a bit more unusual for its faith, something philosophically based or more closely linked to its psionics that marks it as different from the other empires of the time. The empire always had such a tension between peaceful reasoned cultivation and aggressive military expansion, it's tempting to have a two-god system that reflects that: Auppenser, god of reason, serenity, and enlightenment, opposed by a god of emotion, passion, and conflict. Maybe Lliira?
This ties-in to some stuff I said over in the Norse thread, so I'll C&P it here-
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't like giving Jhaamdath any Finnish gods - I give all those to Netheril (although I suppose a couple could have aliases in the other pantheon). I'd prefer to give Lurue to Jhaamdah, over Mystryl. Psionics seems to give magic-users some sort of 'leg up' over other casters (the equivalent of taking steroids in professional sports), and because of the psionic nature of Jhaamdath, and Lurue being a more 'primitive' take on magic (mana without rules, before Mystryl even came about), it just seem more natural for Jhaamdath to be 'in touch with' the earlier, more 'pristine' form of magic. Just my opinion, of course. Plus, once again, the Nethrese had Mystryl, and I'd like to keep the two 'mighty empires' as separate as possible.
As an aside to all this (and I feel another new thread coming on LOL), I'm thinking RW biology/genetics right now. We had this ancient culture in the west=central heartlands called the Talfir. The Netherese seem to have migrated from somewhere else, and 'from the east' makes the most sense (we already have the Northmen/Illuskans coming from the west, and a bunch of groups coming up from the south). Coming up from the SE we have the Turami and the Chondathans (Mulan?) right behind them. So now I'm thinking that if you don't use my 'Dathite' hypothesis (another group hinted at in canon to have been abducted by Imaskar), we could say that the modern-day Chondathan group is really just the Mulan - and some Turami - that mixed with the indigenous Talfir in central Faerūn (so, 'olive skinned'). Then, as the chondathan group pushed even further into the Heartlands (pretty much all over the place), we had further mixing with the Talfir (a then-waning group), creating the modern 'Tethin' group (something racially looking like the people of the RW Iberian peninsula). Amnites would then be a mixture of that fairly recent group and the Calishite group - who most likely worked its way up from Zakhara.
ANYWAY (boy, does my brain get side-tracked), with all this 'new blood' mixing with the Talfir, and most especially with it mixing with the Mulan (people from another world), it would create an exponential increase in available genetic diversity - and the potentiality for 'mutations'.* In other words, its because of all that 'ethnic mixing' in central Faerūn that created the psionic abilities we see in Jhaamdath. And from that, maybe we can see how some powers - mortal and god alike - might not have liked where that was leading.
*In the RW, 'mutts' (creatures who's genetic material came from more than one group, 'breed' in animal terms, and 'ethnicity' in people terms) are far more intelligent than 'pure breeds' (creatures with limited genetic diversity), Thus, my assumption here that multispheric interbreeding would cause an even greater potentiality in mental capabilities. A leap, I know, but Scify actually uses that one a lot.
As you can see, I was thinking along the same lines for Jhaamdath - that their 'psionic-ness' made them different (or rather, their differentness made them psionic).
I'm not seeing Jhaamdath having a very large pantheon anyway - a culture based on 'reason' (mental abilities) wouldn't put that much faith in 'the gods', IMO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2017 13:14:23 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 13:16:10
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On the Garagos/Targus thing, Races of Faerun also equates them. I imagine some of the gods worshiped in Netheril weren't just worshiped there, though - I can especially imagine Talos/Kozah as being worshiped in a lot of different places, and maybe Targus was the same.
If you want to get into the War of Light and Darkness, where Shar and Selune fought and "from their divine conflict the deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces were created", perhaps their conflict created Targus, Moander, pre-Jergal deities of murder and death, and Kozah. Then Targus and Kozah might be deities worshiped far more widely than any one pantheon - similar to Selune, Shar, and Chauntea.
Edit: Races of Faerun also equates Amaunator and Lathander though, so take with a grain of salt. I imagine Kozah and Targus and such as these original great-greater powers of Abeir-Toril, that as they are worshiped by different peoples, they condense and break up into different gods to fit that group's needs - perhaps even the proto-Targus becomes Targus in Netheril, and Tempus in Talfir. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 25 Apr 2017 13:25:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 13:37:16
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In the original Jhaamdath pantheon thread, someone mentioned using the aventi (in Stormwrack) for surviving Jhaamdathi, and it made me think that maybe Aventernus may have been in their pantheon, or better yet, that Aupenser became Aventernus after they were destroyed. If they had a sea god, he'd be as good as any, and he isn't connected to any other FR lore (so no contradictions).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh wait, I just realized, I thought it didn't include Savras. He doesn't fit purely based on timeline of when he would have ascended. He does totally fit the society, but he's from Halruaa.
I retooled Savras for the old Utter East project - I made him from there, originally, and he went to study in Halruaa. We only have one god with a third eye in his forhead, and I really needed to tie that same weirdness in Konigheim to something more concrete in The Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also almost included Sharess, just because of the number of cat people (wemics and cat folk) currently in the area... but then I think that may not have been the case back during the time of Jhaamdath.
On Nobanion, you read my mind. He was touched by the spellplague and "something bad happened to him". My take on it is one in which he transferred over, and his "shadow self" (much like eshowdow for Ubtao) appeared in the realms. It took the light of the chosen of Lathander to restore him.
What if Nobanion - perhaps under some other name - was part of the Jhaamdath pantheon? That gives you your 'Cat God'. I'm still trying to figure-out a good way to link him to Torm (because of how he appeared during the ToT - Lion-headed).
What if Asl... err... Nobanion was worshiped as Torm in the modern Realms? He may have re-entered the Realms post-Netheril (when Mystryl fell and the rules changed). Then catfolk show up in the Gulthmere region and start worshiping him under his original aspect?
Or maybe his demipower 'Torm' aspect was all he could manage to maintain in The Realms until after Mystryl's fall? Do we know Torm's back-story? Could he have been an Exarch of Nobanion? If Nobanion was stuck in Abeir for millennia, perhaps he was able to send a chosen of his through during the brief period of chaos when Mystryl died. Its a stretch, I know.
Then Torm begins to secretly begin the process of bringing Nobanion back to the Realms through the worship of catfolk. Weird, i know - I just want to know what problems (other than its plain weird) people can find with it (timeline-wise, and whatever else). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2017 13:53:50 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 14:10:48
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Torm was a mortal from the Border Kingdoms who probably ascended around the time of the Proclamation of Justice (my guess is with Tyr's help, as the Procession was running out of steam and needed new blood).
Nobanion arrived in the Realms "centuries ago" through portals in Weathercote Wood. I doubt it was a return rather than a first appearance, but it's possible. I have a theory he and Lurue both arrived in the early centuries DR (in the published Realms). |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 25 Apr 2017 14:16:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 14:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, we might as well keep to the hand we're dealt.
As to why/when he came back - maybe it had something do with Mystryl as well. When that goddess stopped existing (and was replaced by Mystra), it removed whatever barrier was preventing him from interacting with Toril, thus his long absence.
Then when the Spellplague hit, he got shunted back to Abeir. Post 4e (or post-Sundering 2.0 - this is getting confusing), Ao resets everything, and pretty-much ALL the gods return... at least, the ones that were present during the 1e-2e period (so everyone both pre- and post-ToT).
This also makes both Lurue and Nobanion primordials, I would imagine. Or perhaps they were the earliest 'beast lords' to get elevated to true deity status (early creator races turning to beast-worship/shamanism before discovering/creating more complex forms of religion, and making their own gods in their image). Thus, their status as 'the King of (mundane) beasts', and the 'Queen of magical beasts' - they were the first.
Mystryl and Shar would have also had to have been around then (I was thinking they weren't), but they caused the destruction of that First World with their fight (the Creator Races were practically made extinct by the cold and darkness that ensued when the first sun was extinguished). On the other hand, if the creation Myths of the dragons are allegory, they could just be talking about a time when the sun was 'blocked out' for several years, which did happen here on Earth as well (massive meteor/comet strike, or super-volcano). We do know something very large plummeted to Toril and created the Inner Sea (and perhaps a bunch of other geographic phenomena).
Once again, there's something i'm just not quite putting my finger on. Two powers, two sisters, two suns, two worlds... everything needed to be 'separated'. Is Abeir just the biggest 'time out' in the multiverse?
side note:
On the "beast lords", just speaking of terminology, I would say that I wasn't really big on 4e, but I really do like the term "Primal Spirits" for these types of beings. Some societies will obviously call them "beast lords" with their followers in a "beast cult". Other societies like up in Anchorome/Osse will call them "Great Spirits" and "Lesser Spirits". Katashaka may know them as "Orishas" (just stating that to stay in tune with some DM's Guild material made for Lopango, Land of the Sacred sun). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 15:32:30
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Despite the appearance, I'd say that Torm and Nobanion have no connection at all; Torm's appearance during the ToT was a purely cosmetic thing. Maybe the lion look was an homage to something from his past, like membership in the Company of the Roaring Lion (which I just made up), or he was a knight in the Order of the Lion (also made up).
That said, you could spin it that Torm was once a servant of Nobanion's, perhaps a mortal knight or something, and the lion appearance was an homage to that.
Or mix the two... A knightly order, founded in honor of (or perhaps even by) Nobanion. Living up to their code was more important than faith to a specific deity, so the mortal Torm joined, but otherwise had nothing to do with Nobanion.
It just occurred to me... Lions are often associated with nobility and being regal; maybe Torm was once a royal? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Apr 2017 15:49:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 15:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, we might as well keep to the hand we're dealt.
As to why/when he came back - maybe it had something do with Mystryl as well. When that goddess stopped existing (and was replaced by Mystra), it removed whatever barrier was preventing him from interacting with Toril, thus his long absence.
Then when the Spellplague hit, he got shunted back to Abeir. Post 4e (or post-Sundering 2.0 - this is getting confusing), Ao resets everything, and pretty-much ALL the gods return... at least, the ones that were present during the 1e-2e period (so everyone both pre- and post-ToT).
This also makes both Lurue and Nobanion primordials, I would imagine. Or perhaps they were the earliest 'beast lords' to get elevated to true deity status (early creator races turning to beast-worship/shamanism before discovering/creating more complex forms of religion, and making their own gods in their image). Thus, their status as 'the King of (mundane) beasts', and the 'Queen of magical beasts' - they were the first.
Mystryl and Shar would have also had to have been around then (I was thinking they weren't), but they caused the destruction of that First World with their fight (the Creator Races were practically made extinct by the cold and darkness that ensued when the first sun was extinguished). On the other hand, if the creation Myths of the dragons are allegory, they could just be talking about a time when the sun was 'blocked out' for several years, which did happen here on Earth as well (massive meteor/comet strike, or super-volcano). We do know something very large plummeted to Toril and created the Inner Sea (and perhaps a bunch of other geographic phenomena).
Once again, there's something i'm just not quite putting my finger on. Two powers, two sisters, two suns, two worlds... everything needed to be 'separated'. Is Abeir just the biggest 'time out' in the multiverse?
side note:
On the "beast lords", just speaking of terminology, I would say that I wasn't really big on 4e, but I really do like the term "Primal Spirits" for these types of beings. Some societies will obviously call them "beast lords" with their followers in a "beast cult". Other societies like up in Anchorome/Osse will call them "Great Spirits" and "Lesser Spirits". Katashaka may know them as "Orishas" (just stating that to stay in tune with some DM's Guild material made for Lopango, Land of the Sacred sun).
As I see it, "beast lords" is simply the planar term for non-humanoid deities. Planar types call them that because it's the easiest designation for them, but in their respective home pantheons they're called "great spirits" or "the Primal Ones" or whatever else. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 15:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Murdane is a goddess of reason and Auppenser is (at least titled) Lord of Reason, so it's hard for them to be in the same pantheon with the same portfolio.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Murdane
Garagos is the debased form of Targus, the Netherese god of war (Targus -> Gargus -> Garagos). No way is he in the Jhaamdathan pantheon when he's already established in the Netherese pantheon.
Here are some other stray "small gods", who knows where they go:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Poseidon
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khass
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Isakkhu
Plus all the loose ones from the Desert of Desolation modules.
But many gods can go into either a Jhaamdathan pantheon, a Talfirian pantheon, a lost Imaskari pantheon, or be interlopers, loners, or even self-aggrandising monsters, based on only speculation and guesswork. We'll never know for sure. Personally, I think pantheons are a bit overdone in Faerūn, but then I did just sort out all the major faiths of Kara-Tur for the wiki.
I'd kind of like Jhaamdath to have something a bit more unusual for its faith, something philosophically based or more closely linked to its psionics that marks it as different from the other empires of the time. The empire always had such a tension between peaceful reasoned cultivation and aggressive military expansion, it's tempting to have a two-god system that reflects that: Auppenser, god of reason, serenity, and enlightenment, opposed by a god of emotion, passion, and conflict. Maybe Lliira? :)
Murdane could simply be a servant god of Auppenser, much like Deneir to Oghma. For those that say he HAD to be a servant of Mystryl, I point to Oghma/Milil/Deneir who are definitely proponents of various forms of bardic magic.... Now personally, I have the new Mystra drawing away some of these servant deities such that they'll start serving two masters (i.e. my personal viewpoint is that Deneir, Red Knight, Leira, Savras, Velsharoon, Azuth, and even some odd ones like Shaundakul as a god of portal magic have all become "aides" to Mystra... I specifically don't use "servants" since several also serve other masters)
Hmm, Poseidon, Khass, and Isakkhu sound interesting, but not sure how viable for Jhaamdath.
Given that Poseidon is known in Impiltur based on old Bloodstone Lands material, he would fit well as a migrant deity that's dying off now (maybe some Jhaamdathi still worshipped him, but maybe many of them blamed him for the tidal wave).
Khass sounds like some "Storm" Primordial that never went to Abeir (there are probably a lot of such), but he doesn't really fit Jhaamdath. He sounds more tropical with palm trees for fingers, and he does come from further south (the shaar).
Isakkhu could also be a primordial. He also could be Tezca from Maztica (which may still be a primordial), since both appear as mountains, and both have their worshippers praying to them for the return of the sun. I personally would make him local to the Earthfasts and not down in Jhaamdath, and I also would make him worshipped by non-humans of some sort. I'd probably make it that he's some attempt by Tezca to get a foothold in Faerun (maybe have him worshipped by hobgoblins).
The cloud god Khass continually frustrates the barbarians of Eastern Shaar (in the FORGOTTEN REALMS" setting); for months, he ignores their petitions for rain, then drenches them with downpours for weeks at a time.
On the other hand, the clerics of Earthfast Mountains (also in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting) end each day by asking the dependable Isakkhu to bring the sun back in the morning; he has yet to fail them.
Gods also take a variety of forms. Most are invisible, but some appear as <snip>, plants (palm trees are fingers of the multi-appendaged Khass) or even terrain (Isakkhu is a mountain).
I'd also agree, that personally, I'm liking it less having Mystryl in Jhaamdath.
Regarding the Talfir and Jhaamdath, I see these two cultures merging to form the Jhaamdath pantheon. As a result, I see the Talfir as more nature oriented, with a later influence of shadow magic. Jhaamdath I see as more "logic" oriented, but carrying with them some of the gods of neighboring countries as well (like some of Chessenta's deities). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 16:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
After all, early Drow used to worship some weird amalgam version of Ghaunadaur and Lolth, and they have no other connections other than both being worshiped by Drow. Mortals love their heresies
Wonder if the slimy Yochlol somehow can be related back to this heresy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 20:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Nobanion, you read my mind. He was touched by the spellplague and "something bad happened to him". My take on it is one in which he transferred over, and his "shadow self" (much like eshowdow for Ubtao) appeared in the realms. It took the light of the chosen of Lathander to restore him.
During the Spellplague, Nobanion tried to save a pride of lions in Gulthandor from oncoming blue fire. He came in contact with the blue fire, and it mutated him into a dark and bestial lion with a mane of blue flame. In this state, he was held in subjugation by Malar. In 1486 DR, he was tasked by Malar to capture Stedd Whitehorn, the boy Chosen of Lathander, but Stedd and his companions healed him of his corruption by blue fire. He returned to his natural state, and introduced himself to Stedd and his companions. In his reinstated form, he was no longer under Malar's control. He guided the young Chosen through the wilds of Gulthandor. They parted ways just before Stedd and company entered Turmish.
I have been thinking a lot about Malar lately, and Nobanion's subjugation by Malar fits in well with some of my speculation about Malar... I suspect Nobanion is the "good" aspect/child of Malar, perhaps generated to oppose Yeenoghu... Why? Because Malar is actually a Cat god AND Yeenoghu "stole" the worship of the Gnolls from him (when Malar was known by a different name).
Erythnul => Zaltec => Malar => Nobanion
Malar is known as the "Black Blooded Pard" and is often described as being all Black except for a Red Face & Red Claws/Hands... Pard is short for Leopard, which has the scientific name Panthera Pardus... Interestingly, both Leopards & Jaguars share the name "Black Panther" when they have Black Fur, a trait known as Melanism (the opposite of Albinism). So, I think of the name Malar as Mal'Ar, which literally means "Black Panther"...
Why Erythnul & Zaltec & Nobanion? There are 4 Big Cat species known as Panthera which developed in the following order:
Tiger => Jaguar => Leopard => Lion
Erythnul => Zaltec => Malar => Nobanion
At first glance, one might think that Erythnul is a tenuous connection to make... However, he does share the notable "Red Hands" and "Blood-lust" possessed by Zaltec/Malar, and is worshipped by the Gnolls (despite Yeenoghu's interference)... We all know that Gnolls are Hyena-men, not Tiger-men... However, despite their Canine-like form/behaviors, Hyenas are actually related to Felines... Also, in Heraldic symbols there are two types of Tigers: the Natural Tiger, and the Heraldic Tiger (which is spelled Tyger). The Tyger has a Canine-like body, extremely powerful jaws, a slightly elongated snout, and a Speckled or Red coloration... That description suggests Tyger = Hyena. Therefore, Erythnul may actually be a Cat god.
Which brings us right back to my original premise:
Erythnul => Zaltec => Malar => Nobanion
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Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 02:09:30
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The only info I have found on the Procession comes from F&P and GHotR.
They have Torm as serving a mortal monarch immediately post-Netheril, probably in the Border Kingdoms. So at a guess, he's present there in -330. If he's a mortal man of age 20 around then, let's he heroically dies as an act of self-sacrifice in -300 at the age of 50, and ascends to become a demigod.
In -256 DR we have the first mention of him in the GHotR, with him being preached about by a Durpari trader who believes Torm is part of the Adama.
The Procession of Justice is from -247 to -238, picking up Ilmater in -243.
Brian Cortijo has speculated that at the end of the Procession of Justice, Tyr seeks out a war captain to oversee his military efforts on Faerun and throughout the planes: Torm. This would place Torm joining forces with Tyr in about -238, as a demigod that Tyr sends around kicking evil's butt.
He then becomes a lesser power after the Time of Troubles.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If i recall correctly Torm was left to rule the kingdom founded by Tyr during the procession.
I think this kingdom was likely centred on the northern mountains of jhaamdath after the last bastion of jhaamdaths empire was swept away (i vaguely recall one of the text blocks describing military outposts in the mountains of the north and i think thats where valigorns church held sway).
Then Bane rocks up later and destroys it all (that legend in the old adventure using the wargame system).
I can't find anything on a kingdom founded by Tyr after the Procession, would be interested to see where that comes from.
In the background to "The Hand of Tyr" in the Swords of the Iron Legion, clerics of Tyr pray for help and are aided by a savior in white armour on a white horse with a gauntlet on his right hand that reflects light. They believe this is "the god Torm sent by Tyr". This takes place in Urml in the southwestern Orsraun Mountains, right near the Vilhon Reach. This takes places "100 years ago", so around 1256 DR or so.
If we're talking about the same adventure anthology, I think the Bane destruction you're referring to actually takes place in Timindar, on the road between Arrabar and Hlath in Chondath, in a different adventure that's part of that anthology.
I take away from this that Tyr is a deity of Jhaamdath, and Torm was a minor deity mainly worshiped in the Border Kingdoms and the South. Then Torm was picked up by Tyr, who semi-joined their churches to give Torm a boost. Torm thus began to get a wider following in the period after the fall of Jhaamdath and the Procession. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 26 Apr 2017 02:22:52 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 03:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I suspect George that you may be the only person here that actually knows that answer.
I think i figured out Jergal from your article last year but the other two are still a mystery.
Ps. Hows the Damara lineage coming along. Any chance of it being released anytime soon.
Well, I can consign the presence of both Garagos and Sharess in the Border Kingdoms to diaspora worship (Karsus did have a secret lair near Starmantle after all) and you are right re why Jergal is present there.
Damara lineage is done. Not much chance of it being released any time soon though. I've done a few lineages lately - Illusk/Luskan, Delimbiyran, Calantor/Calandor/Daggerford, Mir, Waterdeep and some others. They are attached to a series of timelines that are in genesis - but given my time constraints and "hopping from project to project" mentality (I'm back to writing up swords of Impiltur as well as dabbling in some rune and gem ideas) - I wouldn't be holding my breath re when they might see the light of day.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 03:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Given that Poseidon is known in Impiltur based on old Bloodstone Lands material, he would fit well as a migrant deity that's dying off now (maybe some Jhaamdathi still worshipped him, but maybe many of them blamed him for the tidal wave).
I tried to fix that lore gaffe recently in the context of my Saints of Impiltur article. St Persaardon of Ilmater is who they were referring to ... 
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 03:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I suspect George that you may be the only person here that actually knows that answer.
I think i figured out Jergal from your article last year but the other two are still a mystery.
Ps. Hows the Damara lineage coming along. Any chance of it being released anytime soon.
Well, I can consign the presence of both Garagos and Sharess in the Border Kingdoms to diaspora worship (Karsus did have a secret lair near Starmantle after all) and you are right re why Jergal is present there.
Damara lineage is done. Not much chance of it being released any time soon though. I've done a few lineages lately - Illusk/Luskan, Delimbiyran, Calantor/Calandor/Daggerford, Mir, Waterdeep and some others. They are attached to a series of timelines that are in genesis - but given my time constraints and "hopping from project to project" mentality (I'm back to writing up swords of Impiltur as well as dabbling in some rune and gem ideas) - I wouldn't be holding my breath re when they might see the light of day.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 03:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Despite the appearance, I'd say that Torm and Nobanion have no connection at all; Torm's appearance during the ToT was a purely cosmetic thing. Maybe the lion look was an homage to something from his past, like membership in the Company of the Roaring Lion (which I just made up), or he was a knight in the Order of the Lion (also made up).
That said, you could spin it that Torm was once a servant of Nobanion's, perhaps a mortal knight or something, and the lion appearance was an homage to that.
Or mix the two... A knightly order, founded in honor of (or perhaps even by) Nobanion. Living up to their code was more important than faith to a specific deity, so the mortal Torm joined, but otherwise had nothing to do with Nobanion.
It just occurred to me... Lions are often associated with nobility and being regal; maybe Torm was once a royal?
The kingdom Torm served was called Chalsembyr, and the blade "Chalsembyr's Heart" has a distinct lion motif, according to Champions of Valor. My guess is Chalsembyr's monarchy favoured lion imagery, and Torm got such a good reputation as a servant of that monarchy that he gained a nickname something like "the Lion of Chalsembyr". |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 08:16:35
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Here's my current ideas on ancient pantheons as they relate to the gods currently in the Faerunian pantheon. I should note most of these pantheons probably have more deities than I'm listing here, but they never made it into the Faerunian pantheon, so they're not listed. I have, perhaps very obviously, had to take some creative licence here.
GODS OF ALL ABEIR-TORIL
These powers are worshiped in different places throughout Faerun, and are potential members of all the major pantheons, to greater, lesser, or non-existent extents. They came into being before or during the War of Light and Darkness.
Core Group:
These gods are likely to be worshiped in one form or another just about everywhere.
Shar and Selune: present since Ao binds the planets into the crystal sphere of Realmspace.
Chauntea: present since Shar and Selune work with the planet Abeir-Toril to make it more stable
Mystra: present since the War of Light and Darkness
Elemental Powers:
Akadi Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar: primordial gods that were present in the creation of the planets. These gods generally don't take a huge interest in mortal affairs however, and they may not even have a presence in most pantheons.
The Gods of Fury:
Talos, Auril, Malar, and Umberlee: present since the War of Light and Darkness as some of the fell gods created. Worship is generally by geographical area (the influence of the natural forces each god represents).
The God of Knowledge:
Oghma: F&P mentions that he's been around since the beginning of the world, and has been worshipped since the earliest humans. He first appears in the GHotR in relevance to the Adama, as preached by a Durpari merchant. There's not much to go on here, but tempted to just put him here as F&P implies. Influence likely varies greatly by society, and he may not even be granted entry into some pantheons (eg. Netherese, where he isn't listed).
GODS OF THE NETHERESE PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Amaunator, Garagos, Jergal, Moander, and Tyche are worshiped. (Netheril Boxed Set)
Talos is present as Kozah, Jannath is Chauntea; Mystryl, Selune and Shar here too. I imagine these latter 5 gods are also present in many other pantheons.
Auril, Malar, and Umberlee are not much of an influence in this pantheon. Kossuth is known as an ally of Amaunator.
GODS OF THE JHAAMDATH PANTHEON
This was a very mind-focused society, so I've included Murdane as deity under Auppenser, and Eldath who has a highly advanced philosophy.
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Auppenser, Murdane, Valigan Thirdborn (the former is now sleeping, the latter two are dead)
Eldath: druids of hers are present in the Vilhon Reach at least by 75 DR, but likely much earlier
Helm: Loved Murdane, worship strong in Vilhon Reach and other lands settled by Chondathans
Lathander: Paladins of his come out of Vilhon Reach in -137 DR
Loviatar: Faith most powerful in Dambrath, but is also associated with Chondathans. May have even been a Shaaran deity originally.
Lliira: Selgaunt is main church, linked to Chondathans, subordinate to Sune (so perhaps she was originally a Turami deity, and became subservient to the Jhaamdathi Sune?). FRCS has worshiped in Vilhon Reach & Cormyr
Sune: Not much to go on here, but linked to Chondathans, worshiped in Dragon Coast, Sembia in FRCS (& Amn)
Talona: A plague occurs in Calimshan and it is blamed on Jhaamdath, who were experimenting with such things.
Tyr: Ed has confirmed this
The Jhaamdath & Calimshan pantheons probably began to mix in their wars with Coramshan and Mir millennia ago. Some of these deities may also be Turami or Shaaryan, as they were partly subsumed by Jhaamdath. As a result these are just a list of those deities present at the end of Jhaamdath that made it into the Faerunian pantheon.
GODS OF THE CALIMSHAN PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Ibrandul: Worship began in prehistory of Calimshan, before the Shoon
Ilmater: probably a part of Calimshan culture even before joins Tyr
Milil: Didn't really know where to put this guy, not many links. Amn seems important though.
Waukeen: Mentioned as one of the candidates for the Calimshan pantheon in RoF. Also mentioned by the Durpari trader who preaches about the Adama, so probably spreads southeast (or maybe even originated in Durpar).
The Jhaamdath & pantheons probably began to mix in their wars millennia ago. Talona may even have started as a deity of Calimshan. Anachtyr likely did, before joining with Tyr.
This pantheon is also one of the more likely pantheons to interact with the Talfir pantheon.
The Calimshan pantheon is also said to have subsumed the Shaaran (as did Jhaamdath).
GODS OF THE TALFIR PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Mask: Talfir is associated with Shadow Magic, and there's not much else to go on for Mask
Mielikki: The Talfir humans grew up amongst the forests of Shantel Othreier, so forest deities important. Alternatively tempted to move her to Jhaamdath so she can be next to Loviatar (another Finnish deity).
Silvanus: Talfir in forest, Silvanus is all about that.
Tempus: Associated with Talfir by Races of Faerun.
This pantheon probably interacted with both Calimshan and Jhaamdath over time.
PRIMAL POWERS
I imagine these as primal spirit powers, similar to the primal powers of 4e, rather than their own pantheon. Alternatively they could be seen as Animal Lords or deities of other creatures (unicorns in the case of Lurue, korred in the case of Shiallia)
Lurue
Nobanion
Shiallia
GODS OF THE GIANT PANTHEON
Not mentioning here, except for Ulutiu because his worship comes down to the Ice Hunters and other groups.
GODS OF THE MULAN PANTHEONS
Not going to mention these here, except to say that Sharess and Hoar are notables that got into the Faerunian pantheon later.
GODS THAT SEEM RELATIVELY SINGULAR
Gond: Some say originated in Lantan, possibly spread to Durpar by -256 DR (because was preached about just as Oghma, Waukeen, Selune, & Torm were). Worship is also common in Mulhorand by the FRCS.
Leira: Possibly a local deity of the Lapal of Halruua that becomes followed by the Netherese refugees. If of the Lapal, she may have also been worshiped on the Shaar and thus been incorporated into the Jhaamdathi and Calishite pantheons.
Shaundakul: Kind of his own category. His belief is thought to start with the Rus, who are Illuskans who both travelled by lakes and rivers all the way to the Moonsea and Rashemen (before the forming of Anauroch). Other Rus also went through a portal to end up in Rashemen. He was revered in Myth Drannor especially - my theory is he was an Illuskan-Rus who dreamed of a future like Myth Drannor, who set off on the first journeys inland. He eventually died and was reborn a god, and has become more associated with the land his people eventually settled in.
GODS OF THE DIASPORA ERA
These are deities that I see existing around the time of the diasporas from Netheril and Jhaamdath, and not being part of any ancient pantheons.
Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul: Likely ascend either just before in the centuries after the fall of Netheril, and were probably the biggest deal in the Netherese and Jhaamdath survivor states (eg. Chondath).
Deneir: Church only starts in 25 DR. May have been a Chondathan who brings the written word of Oghma north from the South?
Azuth: Ascends after beating Savras in Halruua, probably around 136 DR. Probably traveled a lot as Magister and becomes worshiped a lot of places.
Savras: Described as a Halruuan who Mystra 1.0 helps out, so likely became a deity after -339 DR.
Siamorphe: Worship said to have started in Tethyr, so I'm guessing she appears after Tethyr becomes independent in -288 DR.
Torm: Likely becomes a deity around -300 DR in the Border Kingdoms, but is soon picked up by Tyr and becomes important in the ruined Vilhon Reach.
Gwaeron Windstrom: Ranger of the North, hated trolls and was friends with elf/halfling/gnome deities - so I'm guessing an Illuskan human who ascended around time of Phalorm
Uthgar: Ascended Illuskan in 123 DR, followed by Uthgardt
Valkur: Followed by sailors, faith believed to have started in Mintarn which was settled by Illuskans in century before Dalereckoning, so probably an ascended Illuskan from that time
GODS ONLY OF THE FAERUNIAN PANTHEON
These deities only appear after the end of the Dawn Cataclysm, which I put at around 700 DR, and are part of what is then becoming the Faerunian Pantheon.
Asmodeus: Only becomes a god after taking Azuth's energy. Unclear on the details, I'm only up to the Adversary.
Beshaba, Tymora: Formed after Tyche is split in the 8th century DR.
Cyric, Finder, Red Knight, Tchazzar: Ascend in Time of Troubles
Fzoul, Obould: Ascend post-Spellplague
Gargauth: Probably not long after 1022 DR
Iyachtu Xvim: First appearance in 710 DR, unclear if he is a demigod from birth
Kelemvor, Velsharoon: Ascend in 1368 DR
This is all still a mess to me, but thought I'd get this down and out there so I can learn other's opinions. I have a feeling there were more gods and more pantheons, but many more died in the Dawn Cataclysm than just poor old Murdane. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 26 Apr 2017 09:32:11 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 16:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Given that Poseidon is known in Impiltur based on old Bloodstone Lands material, he would fit well as a migrant deity that's dying off now (maybe some Jhaamdathi still worshipped him, but maybe many of them blamed him for the tidal wave).
I tried to fix that lore gaffe recently in the context of my Saints of Impiltur article. St Persaardon of Ilmater is who they were referring to ...
-- George Krashos
Hmmm, yeah, I saw that happening with "St. Dionysus" as well. It feels just a little cheesy as the name is clearly Poseidon, but I can agree that its one path forward. Having two Greek god names being turned into Saints of Ilmater is a little hard to swallow. I had never thought about it before now, but given the Jhaamdath death at the hands of a tidal wave... then IF they had Poseidon as their sea god version of "the protective sea god", I can see them blaming him for not protecting them from Umberlee's wrath. Having a single or maybe two temples left in the whole realms (all in Impiltur) would be acceptable so long as Valkur didn't force the issue. Granted, that would kind of mean that Impiltur is actually disputed territory for the Faerunian pantheon (like Chessenta and Unther were) according to 2e lore, under 5e lore it would be perfectly acceptable.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 17:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Here's my current ideas on ancient pantheons as they relate to the gods currently in the Faerunian pantheon. I should note most of these pantheons probably have more deities than I'm listing here, but they never made it into the Faerunian pantheon, so they're not listed. I have, perhaps very obviously, had to take some creative licence here.
GODS OF ALL ABEIR-TORIL
These powers are worshiped in different places throughout Faerun, and are potential members of all the major pantheons, to greater, lesser, or non-existent extents. They came into being before or during the War of Light and Darkness.
Core Group:
These gods are likely to be worshiped in one form or another just about everywhere.
Shar and Selune: present since Ao binds the planets into the crystal sphere of Realmspace.
Chauntea: present since Shar and Selune work with the planet Abeir-Toril to make it more stable
Mystra: present since the War of Light and Darkness
Elemental Powers:
Akadi Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar: primordial gods that were present in the creation of the planets. These gods generally don't take a huge interest in mortal affairs however, and they may not even have a presence in most pantheons.
The Gods of Fury:
Talos, Auril, Malar, and Umberlee: present since the War of Light and Darkness as some of the fell gods created. Worship is generally by geographical area (the influence of the natural forces each god represents).
The God of Knowledge:
Oghma: F&P mentions that he's been around since the beginning of the world, and has been worshipped since the earliest humans. He first appears in the GHotR in relevance to the Adama, as preached by a Durpari merchant. There's not much to go on here, but tempted to just put him here as F&P implies. Influence likely varies greatly by society, and he may not even be granted entry into some pantheons (eg. Netherese, where he isn't listed).
GODS OF THE NETHERESE PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Amaunator, Garagos, Jergal, Moander, and Tyche are worshiped. (Netheril Boxed Set)
Talos is present as Kozah, Jannath is Chauntea; Mystryl, Selune and Shar here too. I imagine these latter 5 gods are also present in many other pantheons.
Auril, Malar, and Umberlee are not much of an influence in this pantheon. Kossuth is known as an ally of Amaunator.
GODS OF THE JHAAMDATH PANTHEON
This was a very mind-focused society, so I've included Murdane as deity under Auppenser, and Eldath who has a highly advanced philosophy.
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Auppenser, Murdane, Valigan Thirdborn (the former is now sleeping, the latter two are dead)
Eldath: druids of hers are present in the Vilhon Reach at least by 75 DR, but likely much earlier
Helm: Loved Murdane, worship strong in Vilhon Reach and other lands settled by Chondathans
Lathander: Paladins of his come out of Vilhon Reach in -137 DR
Loviatar: Faith most powerful in Dambrath, but is also associated with Chondathans. May have even been a Shaaran deity originally.
Lliira: Selgaunt is main church, linked to Chondathans, subordinate to Sune (so perhaps she was originally a Turami deity, and became subservient to the Jhaamdathi Sune?). FRCS has worshiped in Vilhon Reach & Cormyr
Sune: Not much to go on here, but linked to Chondathans, worshiped in Dragon Coast, Sembia in FRCS (& Amn)
Talona: A plague occurs in Calimshan and it is blamed on Jhaamdath, who were experimenting with such things.
Tyr: Ed has confirmed this
The Jhaamdath & Calimshan pantheons probably began to mix in their wars with Coramshan and Mir millennia ago. Some of these deities may also be Turami or Shaaryan, as they were partly subsumed by Jhaamdath. As a result these are just a list of those deities present at the end of Jhaamdath that made it into the Faerunian pantheon.
GODS OF THE CALIMSHAN PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Ibrandul: Worship began in prehistory of Calimshan, before the Shoon
Ilmater: probably a part of Calimshan culture even before joins Tyr
Milil: Didn't really know where to put this guy, not many links. Amn seems important though.
Waukeen: Mentioned as one of the candidates for the Calimshan pantheon in RoF. Also mentioned by the Durpari trader who preaches about the Adama, so probably spreads southeast (or maybe even originated in Durpar).
The Jhaamdath & pantheons probably began to mix in their wars millennia ago. Talona may even have started as a deity of Calimshan. Anachtyr likely did, before joining with Tyr.
This pantheon is also one of the more likely pantheons to interact with the Talfir pantheon.
The Calimshan pantheon is also said to have subsumed the Shaaran (as did Jhaamdath).
GODS OF THE TALFIR PANTHEON
In addition to the worldwide deities:
Mask: Talfir is associated with Shadow Magic, and there's not much else to go on for Mask
Mielikki: The Talfir humans grew up amongst the forests of Shantel Othreier, so forest deities important. Alternatively tempted to move her to Jhaamdath so she can be next to Loviatar (another Finnish deity).
Silvanus: Talfir in forest, Silvanus is all about that.
Tempus: Associated with Talfir by Races of Faerun.
This pantheon probably interacted with both Calimshan and Jhaamdath over time.
PRIMAL POWERS
I imagine these as primal spirit powers, similar to the primal powers of 4e, rather than their own pantheon. Alternatively they could be seen as Animal Lords or deities of other creatures (unicorns in the case of Lurue, korred in the case of Shiallia)
Lurue
Nobanion
Shiallia
GODS OF THE GIANT PANTHEON
Not mentioning here, except for Ulutiu because his worship comes down to the Ice Hunters and other groups.
GODS OF THE MULAN PANTHEONS
Not going to mention these here, except to say that Sharess and Hoar are notables that got into the Faerunian pantheon later.
GODS THAT SEEM RELATIVELY SINGULAR
Gond: Some say originated in Lantan, possibly spread to Durpar by -256 DR (because was preached about just as Oghma, Waukeen, Selune, & Torm were). Worship is also common in Mulhorand by the FRCS.
Leira: Possibly a local deity of the Lapal of Halruua that becomes followed by the Netherese refugees. If of the Lapal, she may have also been worshiped on the Shaar and thus been incorporated into the Jhaamdathi and Calishite pantheons.
Shaundakul: Kind of his own category. His belief is thought to start with the Rus, who are Illuskans who both travelled by lakes and rivers all the way to the Moonsea and Rashemen (before the forming of Anauroch). Other Rus also went through a portal to end up in Rashemen. He was revered in Myth Drannor especially - my theory is he was an Illuskan-Rus who dreamed of a future like Myth Drannor, who set off on the first journeys inland. He eventually died and was reborn a god, and has become more associated with the land his people eventually settled in.
GODS OF THE DIASPORA ERA
These are deities that I see existing around the time of the diasporas from Netheril and Jhaamdath, and not being part of any ancient pantheons.
Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul: Likely ascend either just before in the centuries after the fall of Netheril, and were probably the biggest deal in the Netherese and Jhaamdath survivor states (eg. Chondath).
Deneir: Church only starts in 25 DR. May have been a Chondathan who brings the written word of Oghma north from the South?
Azuth: Ascends after beating Savras in Halruua, probably around 136 DR. Probably traveled a lot as Magister and becomes worshiped a lot of places.
Savras: Described as a Halruuan who Mystra 1.0 helps out, so likely became a deity after -339 DR.
Siamorphe: Worship said to have started in Tethyr, so I'm guessing she appears after Tethyr becomes independent in -288 DR.
Torm: Likely becomes a deity around -300 DR in the Border Kingdoms, but is soon picked up by Tyr and becomes important in the ruined Vilhon Reach.
Gwaeron Windstrom: Ranger of the North, hated trolls and was friends with elf/halfling/gnome deities - so I'm guessing an Illuskan human who ascended around time of Phalorm
Uthgar: Ascended Illuskan in 123 DR, followed by Uthgardt
Valkur: Followed by sailors, faith believed to have started in Mintarn which was settled by Illuskans in century before Dalereckoning, so probably an ascended Illuskan from that time
GODS ONLY OF THE FAERUNIAN PANTHEON
These deities only appear after the end of the Dawn Cataclysm, which I put at around 700 DR, and are part of what is then becoming the Faerunian Pantheon.
Asmodeus: Only becomes a god after taking Azuth's energy. Unclear on the details, I'm only up to the Adversary.
Beshaba, Tymora: Formed after Tyche is split in the 8th century DR.
Cyric, Finder, Red Knight, Tchazzar: Ascend in Time of Troubles
Fzoul, Obould: Ascend post-Spellplague
Gargauth: Probably not long after 1022 DR
Iyachtu Xvim: First appearance in 710 DR, unclear if he is a demigod from birth
Kelemvor, Velsharoon: Ascend in 1368 DR
This is all still a mess to me, but thought I'd get this down and out there so I can learn other's opinions. I have a feeling there were more gods and more pantheons, but many more died in the Dawn Cataclysm than just poor old Murdane.
A very good start. Some notes. Its very likely that the gods of fury were in fact just numerous Primordials that have "disappeared" over time with the Faerunian Pantheon gods of fury taking up their mantles where he could. Thus, Talos, Kozah, Bhaelros, and that one down in the Shaar with palm tree fingers didn't start out as the same, and Talos has been slowly taking their names. Then when Talos disappeared, Gruumsh simply tried the same trick. Similar things with Auril, Umberlee, and Malar.
On Talona, it is noted somewhere that Talona replaced Kiputytto (a Finnish goddess and sister of Loviatar), which I think was back in Faiths and Avatars. Anyway, this should be noted in that Kiputytto was in the realms at some point, and its probably wherever Loviatar came in. There's even a weird entry in the Complete book of necromancers in 2nd edition where Loviatar is seeking out Cyric to get Kiputytto back. I'm gonna post that, just because it is a fun read. Of course, it may all have been a lie that Cyric dreamed when Leira afflicted him when she was in the form of the Cyrinishad.
From Complete book of necromancers (2nd edition)
When Our Lady of Pain discovered her sister had left the Land of the Living and taken refuge in the World of the Dead, her wrath and fury were boundless. She descended to the Land of No Return, through the caverns and lower regions known only to this spirits, until she reached the city of Erkalla itself, ruled by Cyric, the King of the
Dead. And Loviatar approached the gate of the city, known as Ganzir, and pounded her Flail of Tears on the door, demanding to be let in, but her command was unanswered, and her screams resounded through the streets of Erkalla:
"Gatekeeper, I am here at Ganzir before the Walls of Erkalla. Open these gates for me! I am Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, Mistress of Sorrow, and I shall smash down this door if you do not open it! I shall crack open the bolts with my Flail of Tears and sunder the iron with my Scourge of Despair. I shall release all the dead from city
of Erkalla, and they shall climb up the stairs of the earth. I shall raise up the dead, and they shall eat the living: the dead shall outnumber the living!"
And the Gatekeeper appeared, and he opened the door, but he would not let Our Lady pass:
"Mighty Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, you cannot enter Erkalla with your symbols of Power. Leave them with me, and then you may visit the King."
Our Lady of Pain saw the truth in his words, and at the gate of the city, she stripped off her talismans. She gave up the Flail of Tears, surrendered the Scourge of Despair. She unwrapped her Robe of Severed Hands, and coiled up her Whip of Countless Afflictions. She unwrapped the spiked wire from her hair and plucked out the needles from her nails.
And at last Loviatar was finished, and the Gatekeeper escorted her into Cyric's dismal palace. And the King of the Dead saw Our Lady humbled, and in his throne room of glory, he heard her complaint. Cyric made his voice heard like a gavel of thunder, and he spoke loudly his judgment, with the following words:
"I am Cyric, Lord of Erkalla, and I welcome you to my pale domain. You have no power here in my most ancient city: over the dead only I am King. I have heard your request and will honor it. When you leave, your sister shall accompany you. But each winter she will come back and visit me, and I shall return her to your side in the summer."
Our Lady of Pain heard his pronouncement, and she left gladly with her sister beside her. Thus Loviatar ascended from the netherworld, resuming her just punishment of Man.
"Loviatar's Descent into the Netherworld,"
recounted in the Nycoptic Manuscripts
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2017 : 00:39:21
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I was thinking about shifting Loviatar over to the Talfir to be with Mielikki, so maybe Kiputytto was a deity of the Talfir too. I was also thinking about moving Silvanus from Talfir to Jhaamdath to spread the forest-deity love a bit. I guess maybe for how Loviatar worship got to Dambrath, we could say that it was brought by Illuskan-Rus who had interacted with Talfir, ended up in Shandaular near their destination of Rashemen, and been drawn down through the portal to Dambrath with the others. A tad more convoluted, but Dambrath's a special case.
Edit: Having Kiputytto in Talfir and Talona in Jhaamdath is also a nice setup for them clashing over Asram.
Edit 2: I also had Milil with the Talfir originally, tempted to move him back. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 27 Apr 2017 01:18:31 |
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Jhaamdath Pantheon and 'all things cosmic'
