| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SABERinBLUE |
Posted - 16 Nov 2016 : 19:14:49
So to explain where I'm coming from here, I haven't read a TON of realms stuff but the first book I read was Evermeet so I know where the drow came from, I started playing in 4th and switched to 5th, played a ton of Neverwinter a few years ago, I've read the first six and a half drizzt books and am halfway through War of the Spider Queen. What I don't understand at all are driders. I see female driders depicted in most official game art, Lolth is almost always depicted in drider form, and I've gotten the vibe on a number of occasions that driders are seen as blessed by Lolth, elevated to a higher status by the transformation. And it would seem to make sense that becoming a half-spider would be a very positive thing for a race that worships a spider-themed goddess. However, in all the Salvatore novels I've read (and I figure if anyone knows drow it's Bob) driders are almost always male, depicted as near-mindless creatures whose remaining humanoid body parts are bloated, hideous, and death-like. Becoming a drider is a dire punishment and reserved only for those males who fail drow society utterly. And it's not just in Bob's books; it's pretty much like that in War of the Spider Queen so far. I remember a drider in the first book who was perfectly intelligent, but still male, having been transformed as a punishment. Am I just imagining the vibe I got before reading the novels about it being a positive thing that females aspired to? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 16:14:08
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
What I don't understand at all are driders. I see female driders depicted in most official game art, Lolth is almost always depicted in drider form, and I've gotten the vibe on a number of occasions that driders are seen as blessed by Lolth, elevated to a higher status by the transformation.
...
Becoming a drider is a dire punishment and reserved only for those males who fail drow society utterly... I remember a drider in the first book who was perfectly intelligent, but still male, having been transformed as a punishment.
The way I understand it is as follows:
Certain drow, or drow at a certain stage in their careers (used to be lvl 6) are subjected to The Test of Lolth. Failures were made into driders.
However, the opposite may also be true in that those who succeeded were made into driders.
I view Lolth as an evil goddess consumed by hate and bitterness at Corellon and all his works. Her hate makes her lash out, which explains her chaotic nature. The drow are her chosen race, because they more than any others receive the full force of her hate.
She isn't a strict mother trying to make them better, that's their view, she's an abuser locked in a relationship where she needs their worship to continue being a goddess but she hates and despises them because they are elves and remind her of what she once was and what she has lost.
The logic is borne out by draegloth. These are seen as her blessings too, but in order for a House to have a draegloth a priestess needs to mate with a glaebrezu, a process that no doubt results in horrendous physical damage to the priestess. Lolth wants to see how much the drow can degrade themselves.
So, to summarise, driders are both a blessing and a punishment. She randomly curses those who pass or fail her tests.
So, on that topic (drow breeding with demons)... what other common mixtures do you guys see being part of drow society. For instance, I can definitely see there being alu-fiends where drow males are possibly rewarded with being visited by Succubi. I could also see Yochlol that mate with some males. Possibly Lilitus. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 09:38:34
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
What I don't understand at all are driders. I see female driders depicted in most official game art, Lolth is almost always depicted in drider form, and I've gotten the vibe on a number of occasions that driders are seen as blessed by Lolth, elevated to a higher status by the transformation.
...
Becoming a drider is a dire punishment and reserved only for those males who fail drow society utterly... I remember a drider in the first book who was perfectly intelligent, but still male, having been transformed as a punishment.
The way I understand it is as follows:
Certain drow, or drow at a certain stage in their careers (used to be lvl 6) are subjected to The Test of Lolth. Failures were made into driders.
However, the opposite may also be true in that those who succeeded were made into driders.
I view Lolth as an evil goddess consumed by hate and bitterness at Corellon and all his works. Her hate makes her lash out, which explains her chaotic nature. The drow are her chosen race, because they more than any others receive the full force of her hate.
She isn't a strict mother trying to make them better, that's their view, she's an abuser locked in a relationship where she needs their worship to continue being a goddess but she hates and despises them because they are elves and remind her of what she once was and what she has lost.
The logic is borne out by draegloth. These are seen as her blessings too, but in order for a House to have a draegloth a priestess needs to mate with a glaebrezu, a process that no doubt results in horrendous physical damage to the priestess. Lolth wants to see how much the drow can degrade themselves.
So, to summarise, driders are both a blessing and a punishment. She randomly curses those who pass or fail her tests. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2016 : 00:43:00
@SABERinBLUE glad you're enjoying this. I hope that it proves useful to you.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It sounds to me like males at one point were not allowed in the clergy. That's what I garner from Ed's answer. This does not mean that males could not be lay worshipers, and eventually able to join once they have proven themselves. Elkantar, for example, had a high position of power in the faith, if I recall.
Some males would likely see this as further inequality, and I can see why, but this is not to say that they are under the females' thumb like the Lolthites. Eilistraee is a fair goddess. The males are not subjected to beatings or seen as inferior. They have it much better than Lolthite males.
Vhaeraun too is about equality.
Yeah, at the end of the day, the main limitation for males boils (or boiled, given that it is now lifted) down to their role within the clergy (and to the sexism that some groups of priestesses would still show, but that makes sense, given their background), which is not required to participate to rituals or being treated with love and respect.
Ed even tried to explain why males weren't at some point allowed into clergy, in the lines that I quoted in my previous post, and to me it doesn't seem discrimination on a whim on Eilistraee's side, but something connected to her own nature as a deity (in fact, when she tried to let males become priests, they even felt the need to take the changedance in order to connect with her). It also changed only after the time Eilistraee spent holding Vhaeraun's divinity, which could supposedly have changed her enough, even afer she returned to only hold her own divinity. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 27 Nov 2016 : 00:30:36
It sounds to me like males at one point were not allowed in the clergy. That's what I garner from Ed's answer. This does not mean that males could not be lay worshipers, and eventually able to join once they have proven themselves. Elkantar, for example, had a high position of power in the faith, if I recall.
Some males would likely see this as further inequality, and I can see why, but this is not to say that they are under the females' thumb like the Lolthites. Eilistraee is a fair goddess. The males are not subjected to beatings or seen as inferior. They have it much better than Lolthite males.
Vhaeraun too is about equality. |
| SABERinBLUE |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 23:15:11
I do want to take a second and say that I absolutely love all the indepth discussion that's taking place here. The diverse viewpoints and interpretations of this are incredibly helpful and useful. This seems like a great freaking community! |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 15:14:01
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Yup, "it depends" is the default answer.
Ah, found it: Ed's answer (here). More about that and followers of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (here).
Yes, exactly. And even in that answer we see that:
1)Misandrism doesn't belong to their communities (although there are priestesses who can prove very harsh--but never to the point of violence and sabotaging--to males who aspire to become clerics).
2)Males do take part in all the dances and rituals, except the longer and more passionate dances (unless they choose to take the changedance).
quote:
Specific in-ritual roles of “unchanged” males include dancing, singing, having spells cast ON THEM as part of rituals, taking part in collective spellcastings led by female clergy, intoning prayers in unison and responsively with other devout of Eilistraee, and in the tending of fires, braziers, drawn barriers, vestments and tools handed to or taken from, and used by, female worshippers, and so on. Nothing stops anyone, of any race or gender, praying to Eilistraee, including dancing and singing prayers - - and NO clergy of the Dark Maiden would frown on a male exhibiting such behaviour except when they thought it was being done to deliberately disrupt a larger ritual. Many males who worship the Dark Dancer find a moonlit wooded place, pray to Eilistraee to notice and smile upon them, and then disrobe and dance as they sing a deeper prayer (of thanks, and for guidance).
Which is a confirmation of what we read in printed sources. So males are not excluded, neither by the clergy, nor by Eilistraee herself (in their solitary rituals, the Dark Dancer ''smiles'' and can manifest her presence to them (through moonfire, just to name an example), exactly like she does with females. The Evensong--which Smedman confuses with the Circle of Song/Dance--is a personal moment in which the drow connect with the goddess herself--and is also celebrated by males). The only part where males (used to, before the 1490s) to not have a definite place is the clergy, and even then Ed tried to explain it
quote:
One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form
I guess that this is largely because of Ed picturing Eilistraee as a mother goddess, with a hint of deity of fertility thrown in (he said this in the ''Ask Ed'' thread from 2006, IIRC)--in fact male priests seem to ''feel the need'' to change form in order to more deeply connect with Eilistraee.
3)Aside from the clergy, males and females tend to take the same roles of warrior/scout/expert/worker (females too would fit in the worker or warrior/spy/expert category. We see it in sources and novels, and--after all--if they do not handle the administrative aspects, what would we picture them doing?). So, in short, even though communties tend to be directed by females (and even then--according to Ed's reply--there is no fixed rule which establishes that males can't become ''decision-making'' people), males are treated with respect (in some sources, like SKR's article on drow society, it is even explicitly stated that males can enjoy a gender-fair treatment within Eilistraeeans communities).
4)quote:
However, these gender matters can be overstated and overemphasized. On the whole, all clergy of the Dark Maiden welcome an increase in worshippers of the Goddess, and the fellowship (and working with) more and more Servants of the Dark Dancer.
This means that the misandrist priestesses are many, but still a minority. So, while some drow women can display sexism or lack of trust towards males, the latter are lovingly welcomed by Eilistraee to join her, and definitely do have a place among her followers. This wasn't really the case in Smedman's depiction of them, where the overall picture points to a faith where misandrism is widespread and where males feel like they don't have a place (and where they can get freaking mutilated or violently assaulted just for watching the dances).
And as for things like dictation of faith, or that original-sin like idea of redemption, or of the drow needing to be held guilty for what they are, and other similar things that emerge in Smedman's book (and drastically change what they're supposed to stand for), they are nowhere to be seen, anywhere, except in her writing. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 14:34:20
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As I've said, I was talking about misandrism in Smedman's depiction of them (including males being excluded by the rituals, or being susceptible to being mutilated just for watching), dictation of faith, and a warped idea of redemption that don't belong to Eilistraee.
I get that many of them are converts from below with a heavy baggage,
And then more baggage falls down there from thin air. Ahem. 
quote:
and I think that it's totally reasonable that some groups show those traits (even half/half).
Yup, "it depends" is the default answer.
Ah, found it: Ed's answer (here). More about that and followers of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (here). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 05:32:03
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Perhaps the "holier than thou" attitude was mostly on Cavatina's side, but the hypocrisy/misandrism, and the original sin-like redemption are major themes, which are more than enough to demolish a huge part of what Eilistraee stands for, for the reasons that I've already explained
No one said they are all fluffy. Most of them are converts from below, some because they were "seduced" to it in the dreams, some had problem with the Way of Lolth or local implementation thereof, either way have a lot of baggage. And are even jumpier than they were below ground.
If they come across as messed up... I guess, that's the idea. In Ed's own depictions of that dancing club led personally by Qilué, she comes across as less of a leader or teacher and more of a warden in madhouse.
True, and I wasn't implying that they should be all fluffy, and never complained about the fact that they can be jumpy--it is understandable, they're always exposed to danger (especially when they are interrupted by strangers in the middle of a sacred dance). As I've said, I was talking about misandrism in Smedman's depiction of them (including males being excluded by the rituals, or being susceptible to being mutilated just for watching), dictation of faith, and a warped idea of redemption that don't belong to Eilistraee.
I get that many of them are converts from below with a heavy baggage, and I think that it's totally reasonable that some groups show those traits (even half/half). But you can't have those traits to be the norm, else they become Lolth-lite. That said, in millennia of existence of the followers of Eilistraee, a lot of them would also be born surfacers. A variety of attitudes, with priestesses trying to uphold all Eilistraee's teachings (also showing that different communities have different traditions) would have gone a long way in making their portrayal feel closer to what we read in their lore, and even what came before in novels. However, we get a lot of Cavatina, and the others still display those traits. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 05:19:39
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Perhaps the "holier than thou" attitude was mostly on Cavatina's side, but the hypocrisy/misandrism, and the original sin-like redemption are major themes, which are more than enough to demolish a huge part of what Eilistraee stands for, for the reasons that I've already explained
No one said they are all fluffy. Most of them are converts from below, some because they were "seduced" to it in the dreams, some had problem with the Way of Lolth or local implementation thereof, either way have a lot of baggage. And are even jumpier than they were below ground.
If they come across as messed up... I guess, that's the idea. In Ed's own depictions of that dancing club led personally by Qilué, she comes across as less of a leader or teacher and more of a warden in madhouse.
quote:
(or the attitude of demanding that people convert to Eilistraee before healing/helping them, which--alongside many other things--I really don't know where Lisa Smedman pulled out of).
"It's okay to just say `thin air,` Captain." (c) Schlock Mercenary
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The problem is that 1)that's never been what she's about
The problems with LP are far too many and too large to summarize in one message. We already had most of that thread dealing with this mess, remember? IMHO there's no point to let this recurring argument spread over everything.
It's easier to just pronounce this equine long dead and bury it at last. There isn't much clue to be had from it either way.  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:40:20
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
This is a perfect representation of the whole Drider paradox. If she hates her form, why show it? If she can appear in any form she chooses, why not always use one that is pleasing to her?
The simple answer is that it showed everyone present that this WAS Lolth.
The symbolism could also be seen as a threat. Do as the goddess wills or this form will be yours. That is a big part of the fear that Drow have for her. She is a vengeful capricious Goddess and the threat of punishment always hangs over them. It's beyond just doing what she tells you to, the Drow actualy fear that she may punish them for not doing it correctly, or even simply on a whim.
Another possibility is that showing her cursed form is part of her curse. What good would it do to curse her with deformity if she could choose to appear in any form she chooses?
It seems to me her appearance is more useful as a threat and a reminder. It could also be a test for the Drow, to see if any dare to allow her to see disgust or loathing in thier expressions. Such a blunder would surely spell doom, and this is an example of the kind of iron will and control that all Drow must have over themselves in order to survive in their society.
One of the most interesting things about the Drow and Lolth is the amount of order and control the Goddess and Drow society force upon them. She is a Goddess of Chaos, and yet the Drow must practice absolute control over themselves in order to survive in the society she has created for them.
I agree on the threat part, but if she had wanted to prove that this WAS Lolth, her actual cursed form is that of a drow head on a spider body, not that of a drider. I honestly think that any form associated with her would have made for a good indication that it was her. She tends to appear in her giant black widow form, when she wants to see fear and respect, tho. She does that too during one of the "festivities" celebrated in Menzo.
But because of that, I'm inclined to believe that you have it right about that particular manifestation being a threat. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm really confused about driders as well. The thing about a giant spider with a drow head makes sense for one of Lolth's aspects, but then this quote from Hero has me scratching my head:
And the drow woman became a giant drider then, just for a moment, just so that the other witnesses would understand the truth and be afraid.
Uh... what? Why? Why would she do that?
Why would she take on the form reserved for blasphemers? To demonstrate to the onlookers what awaits them if they defy her? But the text of it implies that it was more to erase any doubt in their minds than anything else. What's going on here? Is she debasing herself by taking on that form, and is it something that Lolth, an unpredictable goddess, sure, but fundamentally a very proud one, would do? Is this something that we should just shrug off because it'd be too much of a pain to justify otherwise? But then what's the truth to driders? :(
I guess that she was merely trying to prove to the onlookers that she was actually Lolth, but I agree that she would have been more likely to choose one of her avatar forms, namely the giant black widow. It would have been a symbol of her power and all that the drow worship (since in Menzo the life of a spider is worth more than that of a drow). About her "drow head, spider body" form, she almost never appears like that, except in her home plane (which is why many think that it is her actual form, inflicted on her by Corellon).
That said, maybe by appearing as a drider she was trying to remind the drow that she still is their owner (as others have pointed out), and what happens to all her followers who don't bend to any and all her whims. It may be due to the fact that (spoilers):from what I've understood, the drow in Menzo were growing rather unrestful for her taste. |
| Korginard |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 16:56:43
This is a perfect representation of the whole Drider paradox. If she hates her form, why show it? If she can appear in any form she chooses, why not always use one that is pleasing to her?
The simple answer is that it showed everyone present that this WAS Lolth.
The symbolism could also be seen as a threat. Do as the goddess wills or this form will be yours. That is a big part of the fear that Drow have for her. She is a vengeful capricious Goddess and the threat of punishment always hangs over them. It's beyond just doing what she tells you to, the Drow actualy fear that she may punish them for not doing it correctly, or even simply on a whim.
Another possibility is that showing her cursed form is part of her curse. What good would it do to curse her with deformity if she could choose to appear in any form she chooses?
It seems to me her appearance is more useful as a threat and a reminder. It could also be a test for the Drow, to see if any dare to allow her to see disgust or loathing in thier expressions. Such a blunder would surely spell doom, and this is an example of the kind of iron will and control that all Drow must have over themselves in order to survive in their society.
One of the most interesting things about the Drow and Lolth is the amount of order and control the Goddess and Drow society force upon them. She is a Goddess of Chaos, and yet the Drow must practice absolute control over themselves in order to survive in the society she has created for them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 16:44:17
We could just 'shrug it off', but I'd rather explain it away, even if the explanation is a bit wishy-washy.
So lets break it down - you said "...an unpredictable goddess, sure, but fundamentally a very proud one...". The first part - unpredicatability, has been an emphasis from time to time in stories about her, including her 'relationship' with Drizzt; even her priestesses are unsure of whether he is hated, or a favorite of hers. She is not just unpredictable - she is one of the 'Queens of Chaos'. She sows discord to make her people stronger.
And then there is the vanity part. YES, she is very vain - thats a great big piece of her back-story. So lets see, what would a very vain elven goddess prefer to appear as - a bloated, elf-headed demonic spider, or a beautiful woman's torso atop a spider's body? The first one represents her 'cursed' form - one she was forced into by the seldarine. The second one is one of her choosing, and represents what she is all about - part amazing beauty, part deadly predator... one who spins webs and traps the weak (which ultimately leads to her 'prey' - her OWN PEOPLE - to be stronger through survival). She is a duality - lovely and deadly, heavenly and monstrous. THAT form better represents what she IS at a primal level.
But then why is being a Drider a punishment? Because she isn't taking a Drider form - thats an over-simplification. Driders are hideous, not beautiful. They just don't have the lower halves of spiders, they have arachnid-like facial features as well (at least, in older editions they did - perhaps newer editions have lost this, which is rather important). What she appears as is a 'tauric' creature, both powerful and majestic, whereas her 'failures' have lost all their beauty, and have become debased, ugly things, living in the shadow of drow societies.
Now, I don't know enough about 4e and 5e Drow lore to say why any of this has changed (if it even has), but it could just be 'evolution'. Its the strongest 'magic' in the universe (even our real one ). What if all driders were in fact male. They were not really 'sterile', they just didn't reproduce because their were no females (and no drow - or any other - female was going to procreate with them in that hideous form). So what if Lolth in her fickleness, or some other deity, or some natural/magical mishap (Faerzress explosion/whatever), or even some sort of 'work' the driders themselves did ('forced' breeding, or a magical experiment, or some ritual preformed to some 'dark lord', etc, etc) has now given some groups of them females to breed with? They don't even all have to have the same explanation - all explanations might be true (one group managed it, and other heard about it, and followed their own plan to achieve similar results). That means that we could possibly have the ugly, spider-like drider females, and also more attractive ( ?) tauric types, like Lolth herself (which may have happened naturally - the spider-visage was 'watered-down' by breeding programs, etc).
As I said, I don't know enough about 4e/5e to know if any of that actually works, but its the best I got, off-the-cuff.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
I used to really like drow, back in Greyhawk. They were 'ebil elves', like I felt they should be, without any of the (more realistic) 'baggage' of having their own personalities and agendas. FR changed all that, and made them 'real'. When I came over to The Realms I didn't like them; I don't like Drizzt (yet I've read all the books about him). I did like Liriel. I would have never had feelings either way back in GH - they just didn't have enough personality for me to develop any sort of feelings for them - they were just 'monsters'. But now that they have these 'quirks', and their goddess is the quirkiest of all (and probably at least a little bit insane), I'd rather spin 'discrepancies' on their individual uniqueness, rather then just 'bad writing' (whatever the actual case may be). I am still not crazy about them, but at least now I AM thinking about them - about what makes them 'tick'. That alone makes me a better storyteller/DM. |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 15:38:38
I'm really confused about driders as well. The thing about a giant spider with a drow head makes sense for one of Lolth's aspects, but then this quote from Hero has me scratching my head:
And the drow woman became a giant drider then, just for a moment, just so that the other witnesses would understand the truth and be afraid.
Uh... what? Why? Why would she do that?
Why would she take on the form reserved for blasphemers? To demonstrate to the onlookers what awaits them if they defy her? But the text of it implies that it was more to erase any doubt in their minds than anything else. What's going on here? Is she debasing herself by taking on that form, and is it something that Lolth, an unpredictable goddess, sure, but fundamentally a very proud one, would do? Is this something that we should just shrug off because it'd be too much of a pain to justify otherwise? But then what's the truth to driders? :( |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 13:26:30
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh yes, Rose of Sarifal...that is the only FR book I have ever gotten rid of. That wasn't even canon.
Yeah, me too. I generally re-read my FR novels lots of times, but Rose of Sarifal was the exception.
I'm writing a story (ok, fanfic  ) set in the Moonshaes in the current FR time, completely ignoring what happened in Rose of Sarifal & pretending it never happened.....
I think it's a safe bet that the events of RoS didn't happen. It's not considered canon. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 06:05:43
I hope they turn out to be enjoyable to you, at least. If you want some context about what is inaccurate, aside from misandrism being essentially normal, and how their idea redemption is often portrayed--especially at the end (which I've already said), there's this (spoilers, highlight to read if you don't mind them):
At the end of the books, a ritual cast by a mage follower of Eilistraee lifts Corellon's curse from her followers after she is killed, and forces them to stop being drow and become brown skinned elves. Then two angels come and claim that this is what Eilistraee's about. The problem is that 1)that's never been what she's about, and 2)Eilistraee's followers were *forced* to change. They didn't get to choose and were forced to give up the body that they were born with, what they were, an important part of their identity--because in the eyes of the Seldarine it was corrupt and they couldn't access to another paradise (even tho it was irrelevant, as they already had access to Eilistraee's realm). For a goddess that believes in accepting people for what they are, and that tries to never artifically alter or force the choices of her people, that makes no sense. Eilistraee stands for acceptance, and embracing and enjoying all that is beautiful in life, and helping others enjoy it too. She wants the drow to flourish and to rediscover all that they have lost, not to hold themselves guilty and seeking to ''atone'' and change what they are. As I've said, "redemption" isn't even directly mentioned in her lore, and the uncursing as a goal never appears anywhere (and I'm not pulling this out of my bottom, you can easily check this in books like Demihuman Deities or The Drow of the Underdark, some of it even emerges in Elaine Cunningham's representation of them).
On top of that, at the end the angels servants of Corellon that come to take the soul of a character say that it was all for good, because now that they are no longer drow, Eilistraee's followers can be with the Seldarine in Arvandor, and can live with the elves. It's just wrong, and it obviously heavily clashes with what this goddess is about. It implies that the drow, no matter what they do, need to physically change themselves in order to be accepted by the Seldarine and the elves. So you have this, the drow who died in the Underdark (becoming a brown elf in the middle of the Underdark is bound to get you killed), and the fact that reversing the curse gave them absolutely nothing.
Not only that, but with what happenes at the end, Eilistraee also effectively abandons the vast majority of the drow, who are described (not by her, thankfully), as "unwilling and to be cast down", and as a "necessary sacrifice", which again goes against all that she stands for, and is something that she'd never do.
In order to basically change the skin color of just hundreds of drow and allow them into another paradise (and as I said they already had a paradise in Eilistraee's realm), the vast majority of the drow has to be deemed unwilling and condemned. And this is stated to be a worthy trade, a victory, and the goal of Eilistraee. The goal of the goddess who chose to renounce to a life of comfort in Arvandor to follow her people and be there for them in the time of need. The goddess who chose to be one of them, and to share their fate just to offer them a new hope, when basically everyone else (except her brother) didn't care and/or shunned them. The goddess that acts as a mother and sings to the *whole* race, no matter how dark their soul is, because she can always find beauty within them. That has never given up on fighting for her people, despite her power being little and her being unsupported.
Finally, as I've said, just know that the transformed drow have been fully ignored by WotC since then (not even a word has been said about them)--which kinda makes sense, since their number is far lower than the total number of Eilistraee's followers, and since many of the died--and that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and all the Dark Seldarine have been revived with the Sundering--as drow deities, with mostly drow followers, and have personally appeared to mortals--so essentially very little changes for your OotA game. Perhaps this recap: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Seldarine#The_Second_Sundering can be of help, if you're interested).
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| BenN |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 06:00:58
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh yes, Rose of Sarifal...that is the only FR book I have ever gotten rid of. That wasn't even canon.
Yeah, me too. I generally re-read my FR novels lots of times, but Rose of Sarifal was the exception.
I'm writing a story (ok, fanfic ) set in the Moonshaes in the current FR time, completely ignoring what happened in Rose of Sarifal & pretending it never happened..... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 05:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
All of this discussion basically guarantees that I'll read Lady Penitent. It sounds very interesting. Deities have always been my favorite thing about the Realms; the Avatar Trilogy-plus-two was immense fun for me for that reason. Honestly, just knowing what exactly is inaccurate gives me all the context I'll need to enjoy it, perhaps not so much as lore homework but just seeing how it treats the lore. Honestly, a book has to be like, Rose of Sarifal ridiculous for me to not be able to get into it for lore reasons.
The deities are among my favorite aspects of the Realms, too  I love stories involving them (one of the many reasons I enjoyed Evermeet).
Oh yes, Rose of Sarifal...that is the only FR book I have ever gotten rid of. That wasn't even canon. |
| SABERinBLUE |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 05:35:07
All of this discussion basically guarantees that I'll read Lady Penitent. It sounds very interesting. Deities have always been my favorite thing about the Realms; the Avatar Trilogy-plus-two was immense fun for me for that reason. Honestly, just knowing what exactly is inaccurate gives me all the context I'll need to enjoy it, perhaps not so much as lore homework but just seeing how it treats the lore. Honestly, a book has to be like, Rose of Sarifal ridiculous for me to not be able to get into it for lore reasons. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 04:11:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We have instances of followers of the SAME god fighting - even some 'good' ones - so that bit about the 'followers of V & E' is irrelevant. Different 'sects', etc.
A deity is NOT their followers.
Sure, that's why I said that it might just be a localized conflict.
quote:
Not that I am agreeing/disagreeing with any of the lore quibbles here, just pointing out that that particular statement isn't a valid point. Perhaps all the Drow represented in the LP books (which I have NOT read, nor intend to) are part of some sort of militant sect/heresy, and do not necessarily represent the majority of the drow we see elsewhere.
The thing about Eilistraeeans fighting Vhaeraunites is not in LP (well yes, it is, but I was referring to a more recent source), but in an adventure set after the return of the twins (when Ed said that they're allies), in the 5e era. But what you said still applies.
As for the drow in LP, they include Eilistraeeans from many areas of Faerun, and the heart of her faith itself: the Promenade. They exhibit the mentality/beliefs/attitudes that I've already pointed out (and that just don't belong to Eilistraee or as the norm in her faith) as the norm. If it had been a localized thing, I wouldn't have had so many problems with the series. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 03:39:52
We have instances of followers of the SAME god fighting - even some 'good' ones - so that bit about the 'followers of V & E' is irrelevant. Different 'sects', etc.
A deity is NOT their followers.
Not that I am agreeing/disagreeing with any of the lore quibbles here, just pointing out that that particular statement isn't a valid point. Perhaps all the Drow represented in the LP books (which I have NOT read, nor intend to) are part of some sort of militant sect/heresy, and do not necessarily represent the majority of the drow we see elsewhere. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 19:08:10
I've bought those, and they are not worth it just for the lore, it's just small pieces of lore here and there. I updated the thread about Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's return with the lore taken from the last adventure, Assault on Maerimydra, if you're interested. I came across them while reading the FRWiki, so I thought I could as well check them out.
However, Karas was alive in that adventure, which kinda surprised me. I suspect that it was an oversight, but hey: it is official now, so w/e. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:56:21
Oh, that I did not know (I don't buy the adventure modules or related stuff because I don't actually play D&D), but I may have to get that one, just to read that for myself. Where can I read about it? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:51:01
Yeah, until someone that writes WotC's adventurer's league stuff decides to ignore Ed's lore and write that they are enemy again. Which has already kinda happened, since in one of the Rage of Demons adventures Eilistraeeans are said to oppose Vhaeraunites, although no interaction happens between the groups on screen--but that's probably because the Vhaeraunites appear in the adventure which comes before the one with the Eilistraeeans. Granted, that could be attributed to a local conflict, since Ed has said that their followers can still fight, and at the end of the last adventure in the series the followers of Eilistraee and the drow of Szith Morcane (which include the Hidden--btw, Karas seems to be back) get to settle in Maerimydra, but I think you get my point... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:38:05
At least E and V are allies now lol |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:02:12
Perhaps the "holier than thou" attitude was mostly on Cavatina's side, but the hypocrisy/misandrism, and the original sin-like redemption are major themes, which are more than enough to demolish a huge part of what Eilistraee stands for, for the reasons that I've already explained (or the attitude of demanding that people convert to Eilistraee before healing/helping them, which--alongside many other things--I really don't know where Lisa Smedman pulled out of).
As for Vhaeraun, I don't feel that he or Eilistraee or anyone else would have joined the game. They had absolutely 0 reasons to accept to play by Lolth's rules--which is a really stupid thing to do no matter what--especially since they had just gained a lot of followers, and their ideas were spreading, so they could have--and would have, since it's their MO--played on that level. But then, the whole game was probably a huge metaphor, so that isn't a real problem.
As far as his portrayal goes, he and/or his followers got it better than his sister, since they haven't been depicted much differently from what they are in the lore. Sure, some things are wrong, like their masks, but their goal has been kept intact at least. The only thing that troubles me is that Vhaeraun is said to be willing to set aside divergences when it comes to fighting his mother, but the *first* thing he does is wasting his forces against someone that could be his ally, gambling everythting on a plan that, even if it had gone as he wanted, would have hardly gained him more followers or strength (aside from personal strength, but that would have likely been much lower than what he needed to directly face Lolth, who had become a greater deity). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:52:24
Perhaps they didn't jump out at me as much, at least not at the time. It's been several years since I read them. I didn't get the "holier than thou" impression, except from perhaps Cavatina, and that was on an individual level. Vhaeraun made a stupid move, and I have always liked him, too. But he has been shown to be impulsive.
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| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:31:13
Yeah, I get where are you coming from, and I don't think any less of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. However, that's because I am essentially refusing to consider what it is said about them in those novels to be of any relevance whatsoever (and apparently so is WotC).
However--and I'm talking about my experience--I regret reading the series. There are many things (some subtle, some much less) that make the Eilistraeeans appear as hypocrites, misandrists, self-righteous and "holier than thou"--not as exceptions, but as a general rule (and that's how I see many people feeling about them, although I have seen only few that feel like that about Eilistraee herself).
Some of these issues are big IMO, as they undermine all that Eilistraee is about (the misandrism, the obsession with redemption as a sort of original sin-like thing, as in redeeming yourself for what you are, which led to the transformation at the end and its implications. That's just stuff that doesn't belong to Eilistraee--and that doesn't belong anywhere, actually). Perhaps you didn't give them much weight, so they didn't leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but they left me feeling really bad, once I stopped to think about it. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:18:26
I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee before reading LP, and the books didn't make me think any less of them, but that's just me. WOTSQ got things wrong about Eilistraee, too (such as males not being able to join in the dance). IMO, Starlight and Shadows had the best depiction of Eilistraeens I have read. Elaine has always done well with writing about elves, both surface and drow, which is one of the reasons I really miss her. If you are going to read LP, I recommend reading Starlight and Shadows first.
For course I hated the ending of LP (and I was never a fan of the Masked Lady idea. That part did bother me) but I do recommend it because it IS a follow-up to WotSQ (as is Empryean Odyssey). I feel like if you are going to read a series, you should go all the way. I would read LP for the characters, if nothing else. Just keep in mind there are definite issues, and the ending has been ignored and no longer applies. So really, it's up to you. I liked LP as a story in itself, but I would read with caution lol.
I have issues with how RAS has handled the drow, too. Yeah he does a good job, but he ignores Eilistraee and Vhaeraun completely @@ that was my biggest gripe about Meastro. It bugged me to no end lol. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 15:54:55
My personal opinion is that, if you care about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun or the rest of the drow pantheon, the series will feel bad, and you won't be missing anything by skipping it, except seeing dung being thrown at characters that you like, maybe even ruining them for you. Because, as I've said, more than a few things associated with them--followers of Eilistraee in particular--are *really* off-putting. Especially what they're associated with at the end: aside from having absolutely nothing to do with Eilistraee, IMO it's just *wrong*, even more so because of how it is presented to the reader.
If you don't particularly care about the drow gods and their followers, then go ahead, because you may very well enjoy the books. |
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