| Author |
 Topic  |
|
SABERinBLUE
Acolyte
30 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2016 : 19:14:49
|
|
So to explain where I'm coming from here, I haven't read a TON of realms stuff but the first book I read was Evermeet so I know where the drow came from, I started playing in 4th and switched to 5th, played a ton of Neverwinter a few years ago, I've read the first six and a half drizzt books and am halfway through War of the Spider Queen. What I don't understand at all are driders. I see female driders depicted in most official game art, Lolth is almost always depicted in drider form, and I've gotten the vibe on a number of occasions that driders are seen as blessed by Lolth, elevated to a higher status by the transformation. And it would seem to make sense that becoming a half-spider would be a very positive thing for a race that worships a spider-themed goddess. However, in all the Salvatore novels I've read (and I figure if anyone knows drow it's Bob) driders are almost always male, depicted as near-mindless creatures whose remaining humanoid body parts are bloated, hideous, and death-like. Becoming a drider is a dire punishment and reserved only for those males who fail drow society utterly. And it's not just in Bob's books; it's pretty much like that in War of the Spider Queen so far. I remember a drider in the first book who was perfectly intelligent, but still male, having been transformed as a punishment. Am I just imagining the vibe I got before reading the novels about it being a positive thing that females aspired to?
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2016 : 19:19:40
|
Being turned into a drider was originally a punishment that remarkable drow were inflicted if they failed a loyalty test (assuming that they didn't choose and manage to get away from Lolth, or devoted themselves to another deity in the Dark Seldarine, or in whatever other pantheon). Then in 4e the lore was changed, and being a drider was turned into a blessing. In 5e it's back to its original incarnation.
Back then, becoming a drider usually meant that the drow had their mind completely subjugated by Lolth. The fact that they had their form warped as a curse might also mean that Lolth herself wasn't happy with her form (after all, Lolth's form is a curse too, bestowed upon her by Corellon). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Nov 2016 19:26:21 |
 |
|
|
SABERinBLUE
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2016 : 19:24:30
|
| Okay, so that explains my confusion. It still is a bit odd that being spidery is seen as a bad thing, though thinking back I suppose it mirrors the fact that Araushnee's original punishment for betraying Corellon was basically the same thing. Thanks for clearing that up for me! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2016 : 19:25:31
|
| You're welcome, and yeah: I added the part about mirroring her punishment by Corellon to my previous post. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Nov 2016 19:25:44 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 01:15:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
So to explain where I'm coming from here, I haven't read a TON of realms stuff but the first book I read was Evermeet so I know where the drow came from,
Technically, you know what the other Elves say about it. It's the Realms... 
Also, the book (for the above reason) avoids and skips matters directly related to the Descent as much as possible - which is almost as hilarious as the narrator's informant(s) skipping altogether the boring insignificant matter of how did the dragons' rule end, while unknowingly providing what we know to be horrible evidence.
But yeah, it's not the greatest mystery around.
quote:
I started playing in 4th and switched to 5th, played a ton of Neverwinter a few years ago,
quote:
I've read the first six and a half drizzt books and am halfway through War of the Spider Queen.
So, twice you did bail out in time. Congratulations. 
quote:
What I don't understand at all are driders. I see female driders depicted in most official game art, Lolth is almost always depicted in drider form,
Nope. She's depicted as a spider with drow head. As opposed to "centaur" spider.
Details are important... especially in the matters that go "true followers vs. burned heretics".
quote:
and I've gotten the vibe on a number of occasions that driders are seen as blessed by Lolth, elevated to a higher status by the transformation.
I am aware of this meme's existence, but still wonder where it came from.
quote:
And it would seem to make sense that becoming a half-spider would be a very positive thing for a race that worships a spider-themed goddess.
On the level of "themed", perhaps ("it's... something about spiders". For anything above the superhero comics level of world-building, details are important.
quote:
However, in all the Salvatore novels I've read (and I figure if anyone knows drow it's Bob) driders are almost always male, depicted as near-mindless creatures whose remaining humanoid body parts are bloated, hideous, and death-like. Becoming a drider is a dire punishment and reserved only for those males who fail drow society utterly. And it's not just in Bob's books; it's pretty much like that in War of the Spider Queen so far. I remember a drider in the first book who was perfectly intelligent, but still male, having been transformed as a punishment.
That's because Salvatore wrote more or less according to the lore he was given, unlike some of the later writers.
Let's take a look at the details. Followers of the competing gods are not the drider candidates - they are killed (preferably in nasty, but swift ways). Driders are exclusively the drow in service of the Spider Queen who have failed badly enough.
Thus it can be thought of as ironic punishment: they got it halfway, you see. Or even "helping along" combined with punishment - after all, she wants them to be more spider-like mentally by the time they'll die.
Driders may be more often male because they were people important enough to notice and bother with the whole transformation ritual (for one, this involves summoning a Handmaiden... who is inherently higher ranked than the priestess doing this). And "important enough" usually means nobles. The female nobles tend to be priestesses - they are often killed by the rivals, but rarely get it bad enough to "officially" earn the transformation with full approval of Lolth. If they are misguided or not devoted enough, they are more likely to be deprived of power much earlier and either get killed or get a clue. Or go apostate, then see the first point. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 02:29:16
|
How about this?
Originally, it WAS seen as a punishment, since Aurushnee was punished thusly. Being a vain goddess, and drow being very vain elves, anything 'ugly' can be construed as a punishment. That covered what we know, and the lore of pre-4e D&D. We can take this a step further (and the lore might even support this), and say that most of these 'abominations' were driven insane by the process. At the very least, they became despicable, self-hating shadows of their former selves.
Fast forward something like 10K+ years (even Elves start to loose aspects of their culture in that amount of time). Not only are spiders now thought of as 'beautiful' to most Lolthitees, Lolth herself has started taking a drider-like form at times (being a goddess now, rather than a Demon Queen, she can take any form she wants). Also, over the years, it seems some of the driders have 'gone on' to lead fruitful, productive lives. Not all of them were driven to being snarling, psychotic balls of self-loathing. There are even rumors Lolth has started turning females into Driders (something she NEVER did before). Seems the whole 'Drider' thing is no longer the same punishment it started out as. In fact, they've turned around and "made it their own".
So into this environment the Spellplague hits, the anti-Seldarine (except for Lolth) are destroyed, many other gods die, or aren't heard from any more, or whatever. Its basically 'a world gone mad'. Suddenly Lolth gets it into her mind to start 'rewarding' people with Drider form. Maybe it started out as a joke - worshipers of other drow deities suddenly had to turn back to Lolth, and thats how she punished/rewarded them. Who knows? Suddenly, we have a whole sub-culture developing where people think being a Drider is good thing. Does Lolth think that? Is it just a funny joke to her? (She does love Chaos) Does it even matter? Lolth does whatever the Hell (Abyss?) Lolth wants. To her, the Spellplague must have seemed like 'party time'. Sure, she lost her bid to build a Demon Weave and Shar's still THE 'uber ebil goddess' on the block, but a girl can still have fun, can't she?
And then we have the Sundering... or the 'Un-Spellplague' (or is it really an Unsundering? Whatever...). Party's over. The parents have come home early and your caught, or in Lolth's case, the other gods (anti-Seldarine). She could have sworn she killed all of them, but whatever, Ao is a big meanie-head and they're all back now. And whats the first thing they start to do? Point to all those butt-ugly driders and start making fun of them! Well, the driders are naturally upset. They though they had an 'apotheosis' - that they had ascended to a 'higher form'. But no, the 'Kids' see right through the Emperor's (Queens) new clothes, and they're laughing their butts off, pointing at the driders and saying, "Wait, what? You thought THAT was a 'reward'?! Have you any idea how vomit-worthy you all look right now?"
Poor little driders... they needed a 'Safe Space'. They ran to Lolth in tears and said, "Is it true? Are we ugly?" And she looked down upon them with all the love that her cold, dead heart could muster and said, "No. You blew right past ugly about 10 points ago! " And she laughed, and laughed, and laughed...
For such is the Queen of Chaos - she is a mean, fickle bitch.
And THAT is how we had things changed, and then change back - mortal (Drow) perception. Perception always bends reality around it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2016 02:34:29 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 03:10:56
|
I don't think that worshipers of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun turned back to Lolth. They'd rather keep praying to their gods IMO, or seek something else, or both, especially if we consider what Ed said about Eilistraee still being around in her "Floating Mask" form (maybe followers of Kiaransalee turned back to Lolth, since they essentially forgot about her).
I personally don't think that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun or their followers would denigrate driders--it would be against the beliefs of both siblings, even Vhaeraun's--but rather try to befriend them (when not insane). Be it out of pity/good heart, or because they could make for valuable resources.
But the last part was fun, and totally Lolth-like, lol... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Nov 2016 03:15:27 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 08:13:26
|
I think priestesses of Eilistraee would hunt drider as abominations.
|
|
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 12:14:39
|
Lloth was punished by being cast out of Arvandor by Corellion. Then in the Abyss she consumed Spider themed demon lord and got his domain - demon webs. She also let her grandson consume the remains so he will be corrupted also. So the spider form and their status is later and not related to Corellion's will.
Test of Lloth is made to sort out the weak on their rise to power. They are purposefuly betrayed by somebody close to them to test if they are self-reliant and do not trust anybody as that is Lloth's way. If they pass and kill the betrayer there is no conseqence except good will of Lloth. If they fail they usualy die but in rare case they are not able to kill their opponent but survives they are transformed to Drider form. Other drows are used to think about those a failures and banish them from their cities.
First it doesn't seem to me like a punishment if you are good enough that you survive a failure and also the "punishment" gives you a lot of new powers and it also strongly mimic the descent of Lloth from Arvandor (she was also cast out by her peers and left alone to survive). So I say it is another level of this test and it is mainly about loyality to Spider Queen over perceived obstacles and if you survive and still venerate Lloth than you actualy succeeded and emerged stronger than you were.
The main drow society serve a purpose in this case and there wasn't strong enough case of drider who would come back and changed this concept and also it would shake the concept of this part of test so maybe Lloth forbids their return and uses them otherwise.
I have used this theme in my game and there is now a religious controversy in city as there is now a drider priestess of Lloth and nobody is sure what they should do with her. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 12:42:28
|
| just a note, even though the top halves of driders are male/female.... aren't they unable to reproduce? In fact, do they even HAVE sexual capability? That in and of itself could explain the punishment and a lot of the aggression, especially given that in general drow are portrayed as more of a sex fiend than say surface elves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 13:48:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think priestesses of Eilistraee would hunt drider as abominations.
I think that they wouldn't, seeing that one of Eilistraee's main ideals is that of acceptance. Unless you take Lisa Smedman's depiction of them (and she tends to paint them in a generally negative light. As a relvant example, she has them hunting werewolves as abominations as a sport, in the very area--Shadowtop Glade, Velarswood--where, in their lore, they are said to be in friendly terms with moon worshipping werewolves, and to even celebrate sacred hunts to Eilistraee and Selune with them).
I guess that, seeing a drow cursed by Lolth, yet another example of the suffering that she inflicts upon the drow, they'd rather make friends out of them, than hunting targets. Ofc, the reactions will change from priestess to priestess, but if they want to stay true to Eilistraee, they shouldn't hunt the drider "as an abomination". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Nov 2016 16:07:43 |
|
|
|
Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 15:45:18
|
D&D 4th edition Monster Manual, the "Drider Lore" section say: only the strongest and bravest can choose to take the test to become a drider, members of a privilegied caste; those who fail usually die.
Could this be where the confusion comes from? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 15:53:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
D&D 4th edition... Could this be where the confusion comes from?
Fixed it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 21:21:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I personally don't think that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun or their followers would denigrate driders--it would be against the beliefs of both siblings, even Vhaeraun's--but rather try to befriend them (when not insane). Be it out of pity/good heart, or because they could make for valuable resources.
Their position is rather obvious. "See what the Spider Queen's minions did to you? And you have tried. Now how about we go kill some especially vile spider-kissing bitch?"
The problem is, peaceful interaction with driders is limited at best, especially for the other drow - between being driven half-insane even before years of isolation and being less than happy to see what they have lost.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
aren't they unable to reproduce?
Yup. Specifically because "Lolth wants their existence to be a series of torments, not to create a race of enemies to the drow". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2016 : 20:56:52
|
Evermeet: Island of Elves is a great introduction to the Realms, but also jammed packed with lore that may or may not make sense if you haven't had much exposure to it (though it helped clarify some things for me when I read it).
In Lolthite society, spiders are sacred, so you would think being half spider would be considered a blessing, but then...it's only half. You're transformed partially into the symbol of your goddess, but not all the way, and you're seen as cursed and hideous. This would be particular punishment for the males, who are already subjected to the whims and beatings of the females. The transformation into a drider is painful, and part of the punishment. The drider become fodder, like kobolds. Fortunately, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun offer better paths, but spreading their word is always an uphill climb in a society dominated by the Spider Queen.
Followers of Selvatarm tried to rectify this at one point, since Selvatarm himself is depicted as a drider, and again, what better reward than to resemble a sacred creature (spider)? I suggest reading Starlight and Shadows, especially if you liked Evermeet (same author) and Lady Penitent, which is a follow-up to War of the Spider Queen, though LP had some lore issues, and the major "transformation" at the end has been ignored, but it is worth the read to find out what happens to some of the characters in WotSQ. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
SABERinBLUE
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 05:01:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Evermeet: Island of Elves is a great introduction to the Realms, but also jammed packed with lore that may or may not make sense if you haven't had much exposure to it (though it helped clarify some things for me when I read it).
Yeah, at the time I had just seen Evermeet listed first in a chronological list of books, and even though that ended up meaning mostly the flashbacks, I'm glad that I started with it. I continue to love Cunningham's prose.
quote:
I suggest reading Starlight and Shadows, especially if you liked Evermeet (same author) and Lady Penitent, which is a follow-up to War of the Spider Queen, though LP had some lore issues, and the major "transformation" at the end has been ignored, but it is worth the read to find out what happens to some of the characters in WotSQ.
Okay, it's good to know I should continue on to Lady Penitent even though I'd heard some bad things about it (mostly just lore details that it gets wrong if I'm thinking of the same thing) because I enjoy the hell out of the WotSQ characters. I'll move on to that after I finish the series.
The overarching theme of my current readings is prepping for an Out of the Abyss campaign I'll be in; I'm brushing up on my Underdark lore since I'll be playing a very knowledgable character. Is there anything else I should read apart from what's been discussed already and Drizzt? |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 05:19:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Evermeet: Island of Elves is a great introduction to the Realms, but also jammed packed with lore that may or may not make sense if you haven't had much exposure to it (though it helped clarify some things for me when I read it).
Yeah, at the time I had just seen Evermeet listed first in a chronological list of books, and even though that ended up meaning mostly the flashbacks, I'm glad that I started with it. I continue to love Cunningham's prose.
quote:
I suggest reading Starlight and Shadows, especially if you liked Evermeet (same author) and Lady Penitent, which is a follow-up to War of the Spider Queen, though LP had some lore issues, and the major "transformation" at the end has been ignored, but it is worth the read to find out what happens to some of the characters in WotSQ.
Okay, it's good to know I should continue on to Lady Penitent even though I'd heard some bad things about it (mostly just lore details that it gets wrong if I'm thinking of the same thing) because I enjoy the hell out of the WotSQ characters. I'll move on to that after I finish the series.
IIRC, only 2 WotSQ characters are really relevant in LP (Halisstra and Q'arlynd)
As for the problem with those books, it's not only the details (some of them are indeed wrong, tho, like rituals and garb used by followers of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun).
Faithful of Eilistraee are warped in the series, quite a lot of times. For example, there are scenes where they refuse to aid someone until they convert, or where they try to convert other drow with violence, or where males are not allowed to dance--which is stated as a rule--and so on, which are in contrast with Eilistraee's lore, with what she stands for, and with what came before Lisa Smedman's depiction of her followers, both in WotSQ and LP. In fact, in her book in the WotSQ series, it is said that priestesses are allowed to effing mutilate males who do as much as watching their dances, which is flat out false and goes against what Eilistraee teaches.
Eilistraee's goal is warped too, at the end, as they try to pass the ending as her goal and fulfilment, when it is something that she has never wanted, that had *never* appeared in any book/story/source related to Eilistraee in 17 (back then) years of her presence in the Realms aside from Ascendancy of the Last itself (the end of LP), and that even actually conflicts with what she fights for. While reading the books, I also noticed an obsession with "redemption" and that the drow should be held guilty for what (some of) their ancestors did, which in truth has again nothing to do with Eilistraee, as in her lore she's more about helping the drow to embrace and rediscover life, with redemption naturally coming later (redmeption is never even directly mentioned in her lore, IIRC).
There are other glaring issues, like lore mistakes (or retcons, depending on how you look at it) regarding the Faerzress, or uses of elven High Magic that make no sense within the context of the Realms.
There's also the fact that the series was part of WotC's decisions for 4e, as they wanted to remove the drow pantheon and make Drizzt more of a special snowflake (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597), that the author herself was opposed to the ending that WotC wanted, and that the books have been essentially, fully ignored, until in 5e the Sundering undoes/reverts most of what happens in them (one particular change that happens at the end, the one which was stated to be "Eilistraee's goal" is basically fully retconned and swept under the rug--and I can see why) and things mostly return to their pre-1375 DR state (so, for your OotA campaign, the events in LP will be mostly irrelevant).
In short, it was a really unhappy decision on their side, if you ask me. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 06:23:11 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 15:37:39
|
I'd still suggest them, for the characters, if nothing else, and so you understand what people are talking about, even if the events have since been largely ignored.
And Q'arlynd is awesom lol. But as Irennan pointed out, there are glaring issues, so just keep that in mind when you read LP |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 15:54:55
|
My personal opinion is that, if you care about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun or the rest of the drow pantheon, the series will feel bad, and you won't be missing anything by skipping it, except seeing dung being thrown at characters that you like, maybe even ruining them for you. Because, as I've said, more than a few things associated with them--followers of Eilistraee in particular--are *really* off-putting. Especially what they're associated with at the end: aside from having absolutely nothing to do with Eilistraee, IMO it's just *wrong*, even more so because of how it is presented to the reader.
If you don't particularly care about the drow gods and their followers, then go ahead, because you may very well enjoy the books. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 16:05:40 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:18:26
|
I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee before reading LP, and the books didn't make me think any less of them, but that's just me. WOTSQ got things wrong about Eilistraee, too (such as males not being able to join in the dance). IMO, Starlight and Shadows had the best depiction of Eilistraeens I have read. Elaine has always done well with writing about elves, both surface and drow, which is one of the reasons I really miss her. If you are going to read LP, I recommend reading Starlight and Shadows first.
For course I hated the ending of LP (and I was never a fan of the Masked Lady idea. That part did bother me) but I do recommend it because it IS a follow-up to WotSQ (as is Empryean Odyssey). I feel like if you are going to read a series, you should go all the way. I would read LP for the characters, if nothing else. Just keep in mind there are definite issues, and the ending has been ignored and no longer applies. So really, it's up to you. I liked LP as a story in itself, but I would read with caution lol.
I have issues with how RAS has handled the drow, too. Yeah he does a good job, but he ignores Eilistraee and Vhaeraun completely @@ that was my biggest gripe about Meastro. It bugged me to no end lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 24 Nov 2016 17:22:13 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:31:13
|
Yeah, I get where are you coming from, and I don't think any less of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. However, that's because I am essentially refusing to consider what it is said about them in those novels to be of any relevance whatsoever (and apparently so is WotC).
However--and I'm talking about my experience--I regret reading the series. There are many things (some subtle, some much less) that make the Eilistraeeans appear as hypocrites, misandrists, self-righteous and "holier than thou"--not as exceptions, but as a general rule (and that's how I see many people feeling about them, although I have seen only few that feel like that about Eilistraee herself).
Some of these issues are big IMO, as they undermine all that Eilistraee is about (the misandrism, the obsession with redemption as a sort of original sin-like thing, as in redeeming yourself for what you are, which led to the transformation at the end and its implications. That's just stuff that doesn't belong to Eilistraee--and that doesn't belong anywhere, actually). Perhaps you didn't give them much weight, so they didn't leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but they left me feeling really bad, once I stopped to think about it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 17:35:27 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 17:52:24
|
Perhaps they didn't jump out at me as much, at least not at the time. It's been several years since I read them. I didn't get the "holier than thou" impression, except from perhaps Cavatina, and that was on an individual level. Vhaeraun made a stupid move, and I have always liked him, too. But he has been shown to be impulsive.
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:02:12
|
Perhaps the "holier than thou" attitude was mostly on Cavatina's side, but the hypocrisy/misandrism, and the original sin-like redemption are major themes, which are more than enough to demolish a huge part of what Eilistraee stands for, for the reasons that I've already explained (or the attitude of demanding that people convert to Eilistraee before healing/helping them, which--alongside many other things--I really don't know where Lisa Smedman pulled out of).
As for Vhaeraun, I don't feel that he or Eilistraee or anyone else would have joined the game. They had absolutely 0 reasons to accept to play by Lolth's rules--which is a really stupid thing to do no matter what--especially since they had just gained a lot of followers, and their ideas were spreading, so they could have--and would have, since it's their MO--played on that level. But then, the whole game was probably a huge metaphor, so that isn't a real problem.
As far as his portrayal goes, he and/or his followers got it better than his sister, since they haven't been depicted much differently from what they are in the lore. Sure, some things are wrong, like their masks, but their goal has been kept intact at least. The only thing that troubles me is that Vhaeraun is said to be willing to set aside divergences when it comes to fighting his mother, but the *first* thing he does is wasting his forces against someone that could be his ally, gambling everythting on a plan that, even if it had gone as he wanted, would have hardly gained him more followers or strength (aside from personal strength, but that would have likely been much lower than what he needed to directly face Lolth, who had become a greater deity). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 18:16:10 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:38:05
|
| At least E and V are allies now lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:51:01
|
| Yeah, until someone that writes WotC's adventurer's league stuff decides to ignore Ed's lore and write that they are enemy again. Which has already kinda happened, since in one of the Rage of Demons adventures Eilistraeeans are said to oppose Vhaeraunites, although no interaction happens between the groups on screen--but that's probably because the Vhaeraunites appear in the adventure which comes before the one with the Eilistraeeans. Granted, that could be attributed to a local conflict, since Ed has said that their followers can still fight, and at the end of the last adventure in the series the followers of Eilistraee and the drow of Szith Morcane (which include the Hidden--btw, Karas seems to be back) get to settle in Maerimydra, but I think you get my point... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 18:56:21
|
| Oh, that I did not know (I don't buy the adventure modules or related stuff because I don't actually play D&D), but I may have to get that one, just to read that for myself. Where can I read about it? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 24 Nov 2016 18:57:42 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 19:08:10
|
I've bought those, and they are not worth it just for the lore, it's just small pieces of lore here and there. I updated the thread about Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's return with the lore taken from the last adventure, Assault on Maerimydra, if you're interested. I came across them while reading the FRWiki, so I thought I could as well check them out.
However, Karas was alive in that adventure, which kinda surprised me. I suspect that it was an oversight, but hey: it is official now, so w/e. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 19:09:52 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 03:39:52
|
We have instances of followers of the SAME god fighting - even some 'good' ones - so that bit about the 'followers of V & E' is irrelevant. Different 'sects', etc.
A deity is NOT their followers.
Not that I am agreeing/disagreeing with any of the lore quibbles here, just pointing out that that particular statement isn't a valid point. Perhaps all the Drow represented in the LP books (which I have NOT read, nor intend to) are part of some sort of militant sect/heresy, and do not necessarily represent the majority of the drow we see elsewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 04:11:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We have instances of followers of the SAME god fighting - even some 'good' ones - so that bit about the 'followers of V & E' is irrelevant. Different 'sects', etc.
A deity is NOT their followers.
Sure, that's why I said that it might just be a localized conflict.
quote:
Not that I am agreeing/disagreeing with any of the lore quibbles here, just pointing out that that particular statement isn't a valid point. Perhaps all the Drow represented in the LP books (which I have NOT read, nor intend to) are part of some sort of militant sect/heresy, and do not necessarily represent the majority of the drow we see elsewhere.
The thing about Eilistraeeans fighting Vhaeraunites is not in LP (well yes, it is, but I was referring to a more recent source), but in an adventure set after the return of the twins (when Ed said that they're allies), in the 5e era. But what you said still applies.
As for the drow in LP, they include Eilistraeeans from many areas of Faerun, and the heart of her faith itself: the Promenade. They exhibit the mentality/beliefs/attitudes that I've already pointed out (and that just don't belong to Eilistraee or as the norm in her faith) as the norm. If it had been a localized thing, I wouldn't have had so many problems with the series. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Nov 2016 04:12:30 |
|
|
|
SABERinBLUE
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 05:35:07
|
| All of this discussion basically guarantees that I'll read Lady Penitent. It sounds very interesting. Deities have always been my favorite thing about the Realms; the Avatar Trilogy-plus-two was immense fun for me for that reason. Honestly, just knowing what exactly is inaccurate gives me all the context I'll need to enjoy it, perhaps not so much as lore homework but just seeing how it treats the lore. Honestly, a book has to be like, Rose of Sarifal ridiculous for me to not be able to get into it for lore reasons. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 05:49:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
All of this discussion basically guarantees that I'll read Lady Penitent. It sounds very interesting. Deities have always been my favorite thing about the Realms; the Avatar Trilogy-plus-two was immense fun for me for that reason. Honestly, just knowing what exactly is inaccurate gives me all the context I'll need to enjoy it, perhaps not so much as lore homework but just seeing how it treats the lore. Honestly, a book has to be like, Rose of Sarifal ridiculous for me to not be able to get into it for lore reasons.
The deities are among my favorite aspects of the Realms, too  I love stories involving them (one of the many reasons I enjoyed Evermeet).
Oh yes, Rose of Sarifal...that is the only FR book I have ever gotten rid of. That wasn't even canon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Can someone please explain driders to me?
