| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 19 Nov 2016 : 01:09:54
I've heard something about Acererak is in the Jungles of Chult. Please God don't let FR become a dumping ground. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 05:30:38
I finally got my hands on a copy of Dungeonology. My game stores (in Australia) weren't even aware of it, I had to go to a bookstore to find it.
For those interested, the book (written by Volo) states that he too thought that Acecerak and the Tomb of Horrors came from Greyhawk. He is confused as to how it could be on Toril, but theorizes "the boundaries between the two worlds may be breaking down". He also only talks of rumours that it exists in Toril, as opposed to stating it definitely does.
It will be interesting to see how it's all handled once it eventually comes out. I suspect it will be similar to Ravenloft, in that most of the adventure will take place on another plane, with the Realms only serving as a gateway with a temple or something. It may even be similar to the 4th edition Tomb of Horrors remake, and have a whole other planar area to explore, possibly even in line with the Epic Tier release. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 15:32:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly, Auld Dragon (and everyone else, for that matter).
As much as I dislike 'parallel evolution' as an origin, I will concede that at least half of the creatures and races we have in D&D must stem from that (Ogres are an especially tricky case - I think any 'big ugly brute' in any setting just gets labeled that, regardless of origins).
I also proscribe to Occam's Razor, which Wooly mentioned. I truly feel all Drow originated from the descent curse that happened on Toril. It happened long enough ago in the past that it makes sense, and so long as we have no canon reference to 'drow' (not 'Dark Elves', which were probably just the Dökkálfar originally, which may have even been the orcs) in any other D&D material that predates that, it works. Especially if we use the Underland which I mentioned above. The Ilythiir dark elves may have even been advanced enough to have Spelljamming, which would also explain how they spread (although I don't know if SJ itself predates the Drow 27K creation). Even if these dark elves were 'elsewhere' in the universe already, and we go with the 'bloodlines' thing, the dark elves living on Kule may have all changed in an instant* (into Drow), even though they had no inkling of the 'Crown Wars' or the events leading up to The Descent.
Planescape/The Great Wheel pretty much predates everything, so I don't even need to account for that. My 'One World' theory is based primarily on Norse mythology, so that first World would have been Midgard, and the 'other realms' became the planer structures we have today (possibly tied to that story about the two 'cosmic' dragons in Guide to Hell). Homebrew: Midgard was the place the first 'mortals' were created, although at the time, 'mortality' itself wasn't even a thing yet. All the non-Midgardians became our 'Outsiders' (and all worked in the creation of the universe - the in-fighting between factions didn't really begin until after the first Godwar and the destruction of Midgard). This also shoe-horns perfectly with the Celestial Bureaucracy (in the end, EVERYONE works for the Celestial Emperor, even the 'bad guys'). FR's Creator Races were also on that First World - thanks to The Sundering its fairly easy to have FR's Days of Thunder be a part of that world, rather than Abeir-Toril (when the world was split apart... canonically). Thus, 'the planes' take care of themselves - FR is just an out-growth of the greater D&D lore.
Krynn is very tricky, but I've worked most of their lore into my 'over cosmology'. Athas is another setting that says all the races evolved there (from halflings!) We have to just say some of that is simply 'myth' for it all to work.
Now, going back in the other direction - the parts I would not want to 'blame of Toril'. Giants - I greatly disliked the Twilight Giants series, not as a story itself, which was perfectly fine, but it just didn't feel like FR (at all), and it also really screwed up all of our known giant lore, including our info on the planer giant deities. Ane we KNOW giants didn't originate on Toril - thats pushing things too far. They are a primal species, mentioned in most ancient (pre-historic) legends, whereas the drow are a created race, in canon, always have been, and FR simply put a 'time stamp' on them. My only 'fix' for that would be that the original part of that story took place in Midgard (the parts that include Ulutiu), and then Annam (the 'High God') got around...literally. He created multiple 'giant races' on many, many worlds, fathering them on various other beings throughout the cosmos. Thus, giants can be both related, and unrelated. By pushing Annam's backstory further back along the timeline (and have it predate the creation of Abeir-Toril itself), we are not actually 'blaming it on FR', but rather, the story has survived on Toril virtually intact. So 'parallel evolution', but with an attached relation to explain why.
I'm not even going to get into the whole 'Kreen' thing. I never really liked that race - it just feels 'off' in D&D, except for Athas. I'd prefer their origins to be something more along the lines of a Predator/Alien hybrid (story-wise). Something that 'spread through space', mostly by commandeering the ships of others... at first. Thats about as much thought as I want to put into them.
Isn't there another, alien-looking critter in D&D with four arms? The Xill? Considering the name, and the look, I'd throw that in with the Kreen races as well, even if its just something else from their homeworld. (okay, now I'm really done LOL).
*EDIT: Which, come to think about it, makes a LOT of sense, because it would explain all those abandoned cities on the surface of Kule (Celene).
On the drow originating here and spreading... let us not forget the old 1st edition module where you went to the demonweb pits and Lolth's "residence" had portals to many other worlds. I'm thinking spelljamming is less likely than they had contacts with the abyss and the abyss had contact with other prime planets. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 01:19:39
Well, I like to think that the universe itself has some sort of 'DNA', and that when it got destroyed in the first godwar, all those fragments were able to respawn as full worlds of their own, based on the 'information' encoded in them. However, each piece was unique, containing a different mix of genetic material (the creatures living on it), and also, the destruction itself could have corrupted a lot of 'data', and thats where our differences come from. All those Crystal Spheres are just the First world trying to clone itself anew, and never quite getting it right.
Thus, creationsim with a scientific/evolutionary twist. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, why replace Maztica / Anchorome? Those pieces at least have some lore for them. Osse on the other hand...
I didn't get rid of them - in that map, I merged the upper half of Hepmonaland (the part we see on the GH maps) with Maztica. That was taken from an old map I did, and I already had Osse on it (which I swapped for the main Mystara continent in my Misbegotten Realms). Since I am now working on combining Maztica with Returned Abeir, it would be a threeway (although its very easy to keep Hep. and Maz. completely separate, just 'conjoined', and just 'hybridize' RA and Maz.). Both the maps we have for Maztica and what shows on the GH campaign map can be used as-is. So I guess its Hepmazticaland now. 
Or would it be Returned Hepmazticaland? Or Hepmazticlaerakond? 
You should know by now, Sleyvas, that I never just 'throw stuff away'. Every diamond is just a lump of coal until you apply some pressure and put a polish on it.
Of course I started playing with this. I can't help myself - whenever I think about geography - especially in the two (D&D) worlds I love most, I just have to 'make sure'.
Turns out, the only treatment GH really got in 3e (aside from a rather smallish 'gazeteer') was their Scarlet Brotherhood, which seems to have greatly increased the landmass of Hepmonaland (which was never detailed before, just shown on the larger world maps), and things don't fit nearly as neatly as I had thought. So now, if I want to use GH canon and keep Maztica (and Returned Abeir) in the same general region, I'm going to have to cut Hepmonaland into 2 pieces, which strangely, works out MUCH better, lore-wise (there are two 'native' ethnicities there, and the northern one is much more like our Mazticans.. or Aztecs). The way it looks now, it would take the place of all of Katashaka (which I was planning on losing anyway... for this thing... whatever it is... lets not call it a 'project').
Its not my Misbegotten Realms either, since that borrowed from everywhere, and I am making this TSR only. Plus its not a hybrid (much), but more of a 'conjoined' world. Just toying some more with part of the premise of this thread - Greyhawk in the Realms. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 01:11:20
I don't think "parallel evolution" (or perhaps "convergent evolution") really applies in D&D. Insofar as evolutionary theory itself hardly seems to apply to fantasy worlds. Some races - humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, dragons, etc - are common to many worlds, as are their racial deities and pantheons, and (usually) their beliefs/myths that they were created by the same. Perhaps the elves did indeed evolve in a single "homeworld" place, and perhaps Corellon and the Seldarines create (recreate) elves - a known, understood, and compatible template - on every world they populate. I wonder if minor variations between elven subtypes from different worlds result from minor variations in their Seldarines, and if this means changes in faith gradually become manifest as changes in the species of the faithful (if not several generations later on this world then perhaps on the next).
So I wouldn't call it "parallel evolution", I'd call it "parallel creationism". And not just for elves, but for all the common races. Science prefers entropy, the natural tendency for complex things to break apart and diffuse into simpler things - magic prefers reversed-entropy, the supernatural tendency for simpler things to drift together and form complex things.
Yes, there are always some populations (of elves or any other race) who apparently "evolved" in complete isolation of any magical or divine influences. I submit that no consensus has been reached in the evolution-vs-creationism arguments on our own world, it wouldn't be "realistic" to expect that universally-agreeable answers exist anywhere else. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 16:47:07
@Wooly, Auld Dragon (and everyone else, for that matter).
As much as I dislike 'parallel evolution' as an origin, I will concede that at least half of the creatures and races we have in D&D must stem from that (Ogres are an especially tricky case - I think any 'big ugly brute' in any setting just gets labeled that, regardless of origins).
I also proscribe to Occam's Razor, which Wooly mentioned. I truly feel all Drow originated from the descent curse that happened on Toril. It happened long enough ago in the past that it makes sense, and so long as we have no canon reference to 'drow' (not 'Dark Elves', which were probably just the Dökkálfar originally, which may have even been the orcs) in any other D&D material that predates that, it works. Especially if we use the Underland which I mentioned above. The Ilythiir dark elves may have even been advanced enough to have Spelljamming, which would also explain how they spread (although I don't know if SJ itself predates the Drow 27K creation). Even if these dark elves were 'elsewhere' in the universe already, and we go with the 'bloodlines' thing, the dark elves living on Kule may have all changed in an instant* (into Drow), even though they had no inkling of the 'Crown Wars' or the events leading up to The Descent.
Planescape/The Great Wheel pretty much predates everything, so I don't even need to account for that. My 'One World' theory is based primarily on Norse mythology, so that first World would have been Midgard, and the 'other realms' became the planer structures we have today (possibly tied to that story about the two 'cosmic' dragons in Guide to Hell). Homebrew: Midgard was the place the first 'mortals' were created, although at the time, 'mortality' itself wasn't even a thing yet. All the non-Midgardians became our 'Outsiders' (and all worked in the creation of the universe - the in-fighting between factions didn't really begin until after the first Godwar and the destruction of Midgard). This also shoe-horns perfectly with the Celestial Bureaucracy (in the end, EVERYONE works for the Celestial Emperor, even the 'bad guys'). FR's Creator Races were also on that First World - thanks to The Sundering its fairly easy to have FR's Days of Thunder be a part of that world, rather than Abeir-Toril (when the world was split apart... canonically). Thus, 'the planes' take care of themselves - FR is just an out-growth of the greater D&D lore.
Krynn is very tricky, but I've worked most of their lore into my 'over cosmology'. Athas is another setting that says all the races evolved there (from halflings!) We have to just say some of that is simply 'myth' for it all to work.
Now, going back in the other direction - the parts I would not want to 'blame of Toril'. Giants - I greatly disliked the Twilight Giants series, not as a story itself, which was perfectly fine, but it just didn't feel like FR (at all), and it also really screwed up all of our known giant lore, including our info on the planer giant deities. Ane we KNOW giants didn't originate on Toril - thats pushing things too far. They are a primal species, mentioned in most ancient (pre-historic) legends, whereas the drow are a created race, in canon, always have been, and FR simply put a 'time stamp' on them. My only 'fix' for that would be that the original part of that story took place in Midgard (the parts that include Ulutiu), and then Annam (the 'High God') got around...literally. He created multiple 'giant races' on many, many worlds, fathering them on various other beings throughout the cosmos. Thus, giants can be both related, and unrelated. By pushing Annam's backstory further back along the timeline (and have it predate the creation of Abeir-Toril itself), we are not actually 'blaming it on FR', but rather, the story has survived on Toril virtually intact. So 'parallel evolution', but with an attached relation to explain why.
I'm not even going to get into the whole 'Kreen' thing. I never really liked that race - it just feels 'off' in D&D, except for Athas. I'd prefer their origins to be something more along the lines of a Predator/Alien hybrid (story-wise). Something that 'spread through space', mostly by commandeering the ships of others... at first. Thats about as much thought as I want to put into them.
Isn't there another, alien-looking critter in D&D with four arms? The Xill? Considering the name, and the look, I'd throw that in with the Kreen races as well, even if its just something else from their homeworld. (okay, now I'm really done LOL).
*EDIT: Which, come to think about it, makes a LOT of sense, because it would explain all those abandoned cities on the surface of Kule (Celene). |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 14:37:22
I wanted to drop my 2CPs into this, but as usual Markustay & AuldDragon have summed up all my thoughts & theories on this very succinctly. So, I will simply continue to donate all my CPs to them by saying: +1 to all their posts.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 13:57:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - thats sounds a LOT like my 'Misbegotten Realms' paradigm. Even though I merged some 20+ settings, all those settings STILL exist somewhere - Planesjammers (Spelljammers) tend to avoid Mash-up Space because most folks are uncomfortable with the thought of running into another version of themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, just to get philosophical for a second.... from a spelljammer/crystal sphere/phlogiston standpoint, what do you guys picture having happened with the spellplague? Personally we saw affects happen pretty much on a single world amongst multiple worlds in the entire crystal sphere. From what I have seen of Abeir it appears to be one world and there may not be anything beyond its steelsky... it may not even have a sun???? However, we're told that the "world" was twinned.... that doesn't mean ALL the crystal sphere was twinned. Could Abeir simply be a world within this crystal sphere that is somehow "phased" to not have an ability to interact with the other worlds unless it rams them.... but physically its still there... and its just orbiting the same sun, but they can't see it (or maybe they can?). I'd always pictured some kind of twin'd out of phase universe both contained in one crystal sphere... but....
Thats my take on it - I have it where its just a 'second Toril' on the opposite side of the sun, in the same orbit, and it has a unique sphere/shield of its own surrounding it, rendering it invisible from the outside (and silver from the inside). Its basically a 'prison planet' for the primordials. Everyone else living there are 'collateral damage'. I actually imagine the demi-sphere being simply black - you'd have to bump into that in space in order to find it (or notice how certain stars get blocked out as you move).
And I am now thinking of revisiting my Abeir mash-up, and including Aberynis (Birthright). There were no gods on that world either*, IIRC, and the whole thing with the 'scions' sounds like a way the universe tries to 'auto-correct' for the lack of deities (much in the same way Athas/DS had 'Dragon Kings'). All I have to do is give the planet ZERO axial tilt and we create a world with a nigh-impassable barrier of extreme heat around the center, and Northern and Southern hemisphers with almost no contact (except for dragons, which can take the extremes, and other very powerful creatures/personages). Athas, of course, would be located in that central 'Forbidden Zone' region. The poles would also be extremes of cold, with no sunlight, ever.
*I just checked - there were, but they're all dead now. I can work with that.
The D&Dverse
As for the rest of the multiverse, I think they've become pretty sick of Toril and Realmspace. You got to figure, when Netheril fell, ALL magic in Realmspace also stopped, which means tons of spelljammers got stranded! They must have been pretty pissed off for awhile (not too long though - we have no idea how long magic actually ceased to exist). The Spellplague would have caused similar, wild magic effects. The cerulean wave must have washed across the solar system as well. I picture a coalition of illithids, beholders, elves, Scro, neogi, etc, showing up at major cities (On Toril) and saying, "Cut the sh**!"
Across the Sea
As for my merger of Maztica and Laerakond - it actually work MUCH better than you can imagine. Hepmonaland and Maztica are a no-brainer, since we are missing the 'bottom' of one (GH), and the 'top' of the other (FR). Just stick those two together - they both have jungles on those 'borders'. The other two (Maz. and Abeir) ar easily blended, however - only ONE Maztican city ends up in a weird place in regards to Returned Abeir. Maztica's (known) sites are all clustered along the northern portion of the map, whilst 95% of Laerakond's are along the southern edge or central. The only Abeir stuff that would become wonky are those humongous northern mountain ranges (Fimbrul & Relmar), and we could either loose those entirely (not much going on there, and it would solve a lore snafu), or just shunt them north (which is what I planned to do). Everything else on the conjoined map is far enough away from each other so as to not interfere - plus its easy enough to explain, since the 'merger' happened 'in-setting', so the people are aware of the changes (thus, history does not need any 'fudging'). I really need to at least finish a quick version of that, to show you what I mean.
The one Maztican city that was on the southern coast can stay where it is as well - it falls out in the bottom right hand corner, far away from the other cities (and is actually kind of cool that one of those southern 'city-states' now has an Aztec vibe going on).
You just hit on something that I was wondering about with whether abeir is a planet or another dimension. Basically if its just the two planets hitting each other, who says that the rest of realmspace was even phased by the spellplague. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 06:40:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not a huge fan of that, either, but the flip side is that you've otherwise got multiple Descents of the Drow happening all over the cosmos. The Razor of Occam +3 would imply that all the Descents were linked, especially given the involvement of pan-spheric deities, or that there was just one Descent that affected multiple worlds.
It doesn't necessarily have to be that it happened on Toril and rippled outward, but it is the easiest explanation.
Oh, certainly. But the linkage need not be an active one. To me it seems like elves have a "built in" tendency to fragment, moreso even than other demihuman races. Perhaps this is related to them being chaotic, rather than the lawful of halflings, dwarves, and gnomes. Regardless, they also tend to splinter in specific ways; you usually end up with high elves, grey elves, sylvan elves, sea elves, and dark elves, although details can vary. Essentially, a world with dark elves is highly likely to result in a descent at some point. That would allow for them to also happen at different times, assuming the worlds were colonized pre-descent, as both Oerth and Toril were.
My inclination is to connect it to the banishment of Lolth. Her banishment triggered something in the elven race connected to her; had Aerdrie been banished, the "descent" would have triggered with avariel, for example. That creates a universal element without firmly saying that it happened first anywhere, preserving DM choice without the need to disregard canon.
Jeff |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 04:37:43
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Is it possible that Greyhawk's history is actually reflecting events of Toril, just misremembered due to age? Yes, but that means putting primacy of once setting over another, and I'm not a fan of that (which is the same thing for assuming the elves of Krynn aren't native).
I'm not a huge fan of that, either, but the flip side is that you've otherwise got multiple Descents of the Drow happening all over the cosmos. The Razor of Occam +3 would imply that all the Descents were linked, especially given the involvement of pan-spheric deities, or that there was just one Descent that affected multiple worlds.
It doesn't necessarily have to be that it happened on Toril and rippled outward, but it is the easiest explanation. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 04:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Until recently, Toril had the oldest history of any fantasy world (that I know of), so it goes back far-enough to blame it for many things, like the drow, and many monsters (either directly or indirectly, through all its planer connections).
(snip)
The fact The Descent happened on Toril some 27K years ago means that ALL drow may have originated on Toril (directly, or indirectly, from other 'settled' worlds, which would include Kule). That's greater than all known human history, so its highly plausible, also factoring-in FR's multi-spheric nature through its plethora of 'Gates'. Throw in Spelljamming & Planescape and it starts to become 'probable'. Elves themselves, on the other hand, should have come from Faerie (even the elves of theoretical 'Feyspace'), and predated the drow by tens of thousands of years (as per Elaine Cunningham's wonderful novel).
Forgotten Realms has the oldest *detailed* history, but that doesn't mean it is the oldest (I'm disregarding Eberron, simply because I know nothing about it). Spelljammer material includes a "precursor race" called the Juna that inhabited the spheres a million years ago, and Planescape has some *very* old events that aren't dated. Greyhawk's recorded history is only some 500 years old, but there are certainly many older events that don't have specific dates, including that world's own descent of the drow (which plays a role in the character of some of the elven races of that world). Is it possible that Greyhawk's history is actually reflecting events of Toril, just misremembered due to age? Yes, but that means putting primacy of once setting over another, and I'm not a fan of that (which is the same thing for assuming the elves of Krynn aren't native).
I'm not a fan of how much the Forgotten Realms has been designated as the source of things after 2nd Edition; with the infiniteness of the planes, the infinteness of spheres, and the original "generic" nature of most of those creatures, it feels shoe-horned and extremely crowded for Toril to be the source of *so many* things.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One of the earliest Spelljammer products (CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, I think) details a number of spheres in the text sidebars - Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, and others - including Kreenspace.
Paul Westermeyer has a detailed compendium of canonical spheres (although it includes Hackjammer material and fanon names too) and planets in Spelljammer material and non-Spelljammer material; the only listing he has for "Kreenspace" is Thri-Kreen of Athas.
http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/articles/SphereGuide/Guide%20to%20the%20Spheres.pdf
Ed Greenwood's Lost Ships accessory included some sidebar info for new spheres, but Kreenspace wasn't one.
Jeff |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 22:33:11
One of the earliest Spelljammer products (CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, I think) details a number of spheres in the text sidebars - Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, and others - including Kreenspace. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 21:08:39
Until recently, Toril had the oldest history of any fantasy world (that I know of), so it goes back far-enough to blame it for many things, like the drow, and many monsters (either directly or indirectly, through all its planer connections). When Eberron showed up on the scene, it went back even further, which threw a monkey wrench into a lot of my cosmological musings. The history of its Giant/Dragon war (I believe) predates the creation of Abeir & Toril itself, which really messes up my 'One World' (Midgard?) theory of origin for the multiverse. However, it could have just been a piece of the original that 'cooled' (was built?) before most of the others (or those stories date back to the One World, which works well for FR's Days of thunder, but I'm not so sure for Eberron).
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Regarding elves and the drow, just because Oerth and Toril are similar in regards to the drow doesn't actually mean it has happened everywhere. One of the crystal spheres in the Spelljammer adventure Under the Dark Fist is populated by peaceful creatures who look exactly like drow. The module doesn't specify they are actually elves (it doesn't specify what they are at all, other than looking like drow), but it seems like a good place to assume there was no descent.
There is another group of somewhat peaceful Drow on Kule, Oerth's moon, that get along with their neighbors, and even run a spaceport.
In the Elven Netbook Project (homebrew), I had theorized that the city of Erelhei-Cinlu (GH) was actually founded by Torillian Drow in the distant past, on the sole basis that there is a single mention of that city as a 'known drow settlement' in an FR product (thus making it canon in FR as well). I'm not sure if Lord Karsus ever used that in the finished book, but I had further theorized that it was an even more fanatical group of Lolth-worshipers, hence their even more 'Drowish' (original) behavior. I used the Underland (from Beyond Countless Doorways - an excellent product) to explain the migration, and that although the path remained open for several centuries, allowing some trade, the connection was 'lost' (for whatever reason).
The fact The Descent happened on Toril some 27K years ago means that ALL drow may have originated on Toril (directly, or indirectly, from other 'settled' worlds, which would include Kule). That's greater than all known human history, so its highly plausible, also factoring-in FR's multi-spheric nature through its plethora of 'Gates'. Throw in Spelljamming & Planescape and it starts to become 'probable'. Elves themselves, on the other hand, should have come from Faerie (even the elves of theoretical 'Feyspace'), and predated the drow by tens of thousands of years (as per Elaine Cunningham's wonderful novel).
The other possibility (because I loathe 'parallel evolution' as an explanation) is that the curse Corellon placed upon the drow affected ALL dark Elves (those of certain 'bloodlines') within the multiverse. While that works, its casts Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine in a rather unattractive light (not that there is much in their defense, in other regards - they are just as 'heavy handed' as any other group of deities). Note that the dark elves of Miyeritar were cursed along with their southern brethren, despite having been victims in the Crown Wars (and yet, the Green Elves living right beside them were not, which is where I get the 'bloodlines' part from).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some thoughts, in response to everything AuldDragon posted...
If Athas is the homeworld of the xixchil, it's also possible it wasn't always closed to spelljamming. I, personally, have always assumed that back when Athas was all green and vibrant, it was just like any other world, and had the same spelljamming and planar connections as other worlds. As Athas was drained of magic and everything, though, it started to lose its connections elsewhere, until it got to where it is now.
Or, conversely, Athas - being similar in some regards to Abeir (4e) as far as being a 'closed world' goes - could have been 'shut away' for some very good reason. While I like to toy with the idea that Dark Sun is actually located on Abeir, for those who don't like that notion (hence, the topic of this thread), it could just have similar origins - something about 'godless planets' needing to be hidden (protected?) from the rest of the multiverse.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Spelljammer material contains at least one passing reference to a long-lost dwarven homeworld. That's about all that's said about it, though.
In my homebrew Netheril material, the Archmage Seluj Enerv created the first dwarven citadel, accidentally. Using a Helm of Two Minds, he created his flattened disc enclave by using the spell twice, shearing off the mountain top from the first piece, which he used as a laboratory. When the Weave came crashing down (damn Karsus), the lab was on the edge of space, and drifted off on its own, to later be discovered (and appropriated) by a group of space dwarves (who used giant stone ships before then). The disc portion (city) crashed into the Celestial Sea.
All homebrew, of course. 
I still didn't explain where they came from before they found that floating mountaintop. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 18:43:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If Athas is the homeworld of the xixchil, it's also possible it wasn't always closed to spelljamming. I, personally, have always assumed that back when Athas was all green and vibrant, it was just like any other world, and had the same spelljamming and planar connections as other worlds. As Athas was drained of magic and everything, though, it started to lose its connections elsewhere, until it got to where it is now.
Oh, certainly. It's also possible the sphere was sealed by Netherese for some reason (using Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere). Even in the Green Age, though, Athas couldn't have been considered a live world. That's one of the reasons I think thri-kreen and xixchil colonized Athas, rather than the other way around. If Athas is their origin, then the Monstrous Compendium sheet is wrong, and I generally don't like one setting overruling the canon created for another setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And while I don't recall the origins of loxo or giff, off the top of my head, we do have an origin for scro. They're one of my fave races, so I'm quite familiar with them.
Yeah, I was just listing a short mixed group of creatures with defined origins and those without. :) The lack of actual Spelljammer information on the loxo in particular was always really disappointing to me.
Jeff |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 15:32:32
Some thoughts, in response to everything AuldDragon posted...
If Athas is the homeworld of the xixchil, it's also possible it wasn't always closed to spelljamming. I, personally, have always assumed that back when Athas was all green and vibrant, it was just like any other world, and had the same spelljamming and planar connections as other worlds. As Athas was drained of magic and everything, though, it started to lose its connections elsewhere, until it got to where it is now.
At least, that's always been my thinking. I'm far from conversant on Dark Sun; I've read like 6 novels and a couple of supplements, and the latter was just for psionic stuff.
Spelljammer material contains at least one passing reference to a long-lost dwarven homeworld. That's about all that's said about it, though.
And while I don't recall the origins of loxo or giff, off the top of my head, we do have an origin for scro. They're one of my fave races, so I'm quite familiar with them. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 09:45:32
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
AuldDragon = Jeff Grubb, I knew he knew his stuff but never knew that!
I think TBeholder is playing a prank. I'm not Jeff Grubb. He IS a personal hero of mine though. :D
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kreenspace was briefly outlined in one of the early Spelljammer products: a Liveworld system filled with predatory xixchil and kreen, apparently very dangerous to all non-kreen visitors.
The Monstrous Compendium entry for Xixchil describes their homeworld as a liveworld full of predators (to explain their ability to manipulate their own body parts; it evolved as an adaptation because of threats). No where is that called "Kreenspace" and no where is it said that thri-kreen are from that world as well, or that they are the threats to outsiders. The only mention of "Kreenspace" in official material is in Thri-Kreen of Athas, in a non-concrete way. Everything connecting those elements is fanon, not canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The origin of the kreen races - including the xixchil - appears to be Kreenspace. I'd thought the link between Dark Sun and Spelljammer was well-established. Though I could be wrong.
I believe the author of Thri-Kreen of Athas intended for Athas to be the homeworld of the thri-kreen. But it was written in such a way to be suggestive, rather than firm. It's also somewhat at odds with the *very* firm disconnect between Dark Sun and the rest of the settings connected via Spelljammer. To be specific, the firmness is that Dark Sun is not accessible via Spelljamming, but the reason is not specified and left up to individual DMs. The only firm outflow (and occasional inflow) of things from Athas are via the planes. Anything more than that is fan conjecture/creation.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But then again, elves in the Realms (along with elves elsewhere) are said by Spelljammer lore to have originally "evolved" on some mysterious "Feyspace" elven homeworld. Or is it the planar Feywild? Or some outer-planar realm ruled by the ancient Seldarines? Or, as asserted by Realmslore, Krynnlore, etc, each bunch of elves on their respective worlds? And what of the "accursed" dark elves, whose origins are explained in another half-dozen ways? The "truth" may be forever lost in myth, in competing myths.
None of the original Player's Handbook races have canonical homeworlds. The closest thing is that the Complete Book of Elves surmises that "nomadic high elves" settled all known setting worlds, but that includes Krynn, which has elves being created by the local gods like all the other major races of that world. No homeworld or homesphere is named in any canonical way.
Dragonlance creates a conundrum. It has closed origins for almost everything within, including the gods, but what was created mirrors some things that couldn't have started on Krynn (elven history on Toril is longer than all of Krynn's history, for example). It is canonically connected to the rest of the settings, meaning either the myths of Krynn are wrong, or there are multiple origins. Since multiple origins very cleanly wraps up a wide range of problems, I'm inclined to accept Krynnish myth as true; the creation of elves and other races there was following a "cosmic template." Since Takhisis and Paladine are (in 2nd Edition canon, at least; I understand this was changed lately) separate entities from Tiamat and Bahamut, my belief is that the High God of Krynnspace (who holds a role similar to Ao) cloned Tiamat and Bahamut, who then brought with them the "templates" for elves and dragons and such. Some sort of "cosmic harmonizing" then caused the races created by the Greygem to be mirrors of things found outside Krynn (dwarves for example).
Regarding elves and the drow, just because Oerth and Toril are similar in regards to the drow doesn't actually mean it has happened everywhere. One of the crystal spheres in the Spelljammer adventure Under the Dark Fist is populated by peaceful creatures who look exactly like drow. The module doesn't specify they are actually elves (it doesn't specify what they are at all, other than looking like drow), but it seems like a good place to assume there was no descent.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
And the Gith races? They all agree (from mutually-belligerent perspectives) on a common origin story. Though the Gith pirates and Gith of Athas appear to be degenerate and even more opportunistic than their Gith cousins, so perhaps their particular versions aren't as reliable. But they can't all be "true".
I'm not sure the Gith of Athas were intended to be related to the Githyanki/zerai, at least originally. They are described as reptilian, whereas the others were human-ish, originally. The Monstrous Compendium Sheet doesn't seem to indicate the Gith are related from what I recall (it was something I looked into briefly a while back). I'm not familiar enough with Dark Sun to know for sure, though, and there was an adventure that involved both groups that I've only lightly skimmed. There was a recent discussion over on The Piazza's Spelljammer forum about the origin of the Pirates of Gith, and based on their abilities and appearance, my conclusion was that they were an offshoot of the Githyanki, rather than a third branch that split at the same time as the the -yanki/-zerai split. There was supposition that the Pirates of Gith may have splintered off when the current (as of early 2nd Edition) Githyanki queen embraced lichdom.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Dwarves, orcs, dragons, and even humans have differing creation/origin myths. They can't all be "true".
No, all of them can't, because some are completely contradictory. But many of them can be true, with a little fudging. Infinite deities, infinite planes, and infinite spheres means almost anything is possible.
At the same time, I don't think we need to *know* everything either. I'm perfectly happy never having a concrete origin for the "archetype" races and creatures of D&D. I don't need to know the homeworld and homesphere of elves, and when and how they were created and spread elsewhere; I'm fine knowing only that they arrived on Toril or Oerth at a given point in time, assuming that the Seldarine or other deities didn't create them in multiple places multiple times. But Giff, Loxo, or Scro? Yeah, those I do want origins for, because they're not archetypical, and instead are very specific.
Jeff |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 02:13:29
AuldDragon = Jeff Grubb, I knew he knew his stuff but never knew that!
Kreenspace was briefly outlined in one of the early Spelljammer products: a Liveworld system filled with predatory xixchil and kreen, apparently very dangerous to all non-kreen visitors. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 23:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
evidently more familiar with Spelljammer lore
Psst. AuldDragon is Jeff Grubb. He invented the crazy thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Athas, the world of Dark Sun, was linked to the Triad (and to Kreenspace) in past ages. It has since drifted far away, to uncharted space, isolated, lost, and utterly inaccessible to spelljammers.
quote:
The origin of the kreen races - including the xixchil - appears to be Kreenspace. I'd thought the link between Dark Sun and Spelljammer was well-established. Though I could be wrong.
Athas was said to be inaccessible as a closed sphere.
And implied to be locked out due to its unusual planar situation (it's "closer" to the Inner planes, but there's the Black instead of Shadow and the Gray all around) - it's technically Prime, but works more like a demiplane.
Also, AFAIK there's no "Kreenspace" in canon sources beyond a mention that "rumors persist" in Thri-Kreen of Athas.
quote:
But then again, elves in the Realms (along with elves elsewhere) are said by Spelljammer lore to have originally "evolved" on some mysterious "Feyspace" elven homeworld.
Yup. Again, 'jamming is not the only way to go around.
quote:
Or, as asserted by Realmslore, Krynnlore, etc, each bunch of elves on their respective worlds? And what of the "accursed" dark elves, whose origins are explained in another half-dozen ways? The "truth" may be forever lost in myth, in competing myths.
Exactly. Mortals have problems tracking much closer things, and everyone else either never cared about the subject at all or is very much an interested party.
quote:
I'm willing to accept that the lore in each game setting is centric to the setting, crafted to fit the prevailing theme in some distinct way.
Also, gimmickification enforced by the Pointy-Haired Ones. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 23:13:19
WotC always tells us that the most recent lore always takes precedence over outdated lore. After already publishing lore which itself elaborately describes how those nasty elves built mountains of historical lore to cover up their own dirty little retcons, lol. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 20:55:40
Evil things those Elves... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 18:53:15
There ARE actually two timelines for Toril already (and I've had a discussion/disagreement about this with at least one 'official' designer). That means 'two Torils' (at least). The other is in another dimension (Quantum universe), NOT plane, or crystal sphere.
If you read Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel very carefully - and also take into account for the sidebar in the GHotR - you'll see that the world (Abeir-Toril) was one way, and then the nasty elveses cast their 'High Magic Ritual', Sundering the World Anew and changing the past to allow for the creation of Evermeet itself... in the past.
Once they did that - tap into the first Sundering and created Evermeet (which is linked to the fall of Tintageer) - everything forward of that point in time (10K years past*, IIRC) got altered, dramatically. Entire civilizations just disappeared, as if they never existed. Thats why I HATE elves so much - they don't just kill you... they erase you.
So we have ten thousand years of history that was gone in the blink of an eye, and replaced with new history. Since we have TWO separate (and different) instances of the SAME 10K years, that means there are, in fact, two completely separate timelines for Abeir-Toril. Now, I said that way back when 3e was segueing into 4e, and of course 'official' types didn't like the idea that I was giving people a CANON reason to simply ignore the 4e Realms.
However, fast forward to 5e, and their back-pedaling to an earlier (physical) model of The Realms, and they (and/or us) can USE that. Ao may have simply merged the two timelines back together, to 'fix' everything that got broken. Even he (it?) would have needed help for that - perhaps he 'got permission' and help from Chronos (who I peg as a Supernal - above Overgods). Heck, we could even use that and make the Chronomancer a exarch/agent of Chronos.
Although, now that I am putting some thought into this, it makes MORE sense, story-wise, to say that the Spellplague made the world 'snap back' to its original timeline (the Elves spell finally came to an end), which would account for pieces of Abeir (re)appearing on Toril. Since the Elves High Magic Ritual altered the nature of The Sundering itself, Ao (in 5e) simply re-Sundered everything (split the worlds anew), to put it back the way it should have been before the elves meddled with his plan.
Thus, the first, original Sundering, and the newer, second Sundering (at the start of 5e) are one and the same - he simply 'flipped a switch' and rebooted to an earlier 'save point'. At least, thats how it worked geography-wise. We could also use it to modify some back-story as well (thus, an in-setting 'reboot', that isn't really a reboot, because there are canonical reasons for it). We could bring-back whatever we wanted, from any point in time...
Which would help fix a LOT of things, for fans and gamers alike.
*Just checked GHotR: This period of time would have been between -31,000 DR and -17,600 DR - actually 13,400 years that occurred that were just 'scoured clean' by the elves meddling!  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 18:21:51
Well for the one where it doesnt happen im thinking more that the new crystal sphere starts again. Reboots kind of.
It would be like the whole world starting from scratch way back in the beginning of time and as a result the whole planet ends up dofferent because a butterfly beat its wings in a different direction. The important thing is that disaster doesnt occur on that world but after a few million years of differences the worlds are very different.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 17:59:00
LOL - thats sounds a LOT like my 'Misbegotten Realms' paradigm. Even though I merged some 20+ settings, all those settings STILL exist somewhere - Planesjammers (Spelljammers) tend to avoid Mash-up Space because most folks are uncomfortable with the thought of running into another version of themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, just to get philosophical for a second.... from a spelljammer/crystal sphere/phlogiston standpoint, what do you guys picture having happened with the spellplague? Personally we saw affects happen pretty much on a single world amongst multiple worlds in the entire crystal sphere. From what I have seen of Abeir it appears to be one world and there may not be anything beyond its steelsky... it may not even have a sun???? However, we're told that the "world" was twinned.... that doesn't mean ALL the crystal sphere was twinned. Could Abeir simply be a world within this crystal sphere that is somehow "phased" to not have an ability to interact with the other worlds unless it rams them.... but physically its still there... and its just orbiting the same sun, but they can't see it (or maybe they can?). I'd always pictured some kind of twin'd out of phase universe both contained in one crystal sphere... but....
Thats my take on it - I have it where its just a 'second Toril' on the opposite side of the sun, in the same orbit, and it has a unique sphere/shield of its own surrounding it, rendering it invisible from the outside (and silver from the inside). Its basically a 'prison planet' for the primordials. Everyone else living there are 'collateral damage'. I actually imagine the demi-sphere being simply black - you'd have to bump into that in space in order to find it (or notice how certain stars get blocked out as you move).
And I am now thinking of revisiting my Abeir mash-up, and including Aberynis (Birthright). There were no gods on that world either*, IIRC, and the whole thing with the 'scions' sounds like a way the universe tries to 'auto-correct' for the lack of deities (much in the same way Athas/DS had 'Dragon Kings'). All I have to do is give the planet ZERO axial tilt and we create a world with a nigh-impassable barrier of extreme heat around the center, and Northern and Southern hemisphers with almost no contact (except for dragons, which can take the extremes, and other very powerful creatures/personages). Athas, of course, would be located in that central 'Forbidden Zone' region. The poles would also be extremes of cold, with no sunlight, ever.
*I just checked - there were, but they're all dead now. I can work with that.
The D&Dverse
As for the rest of the multiverse, I think they've become pretty sick of Toril and Realmspace. You got to figure, when Netheril fell, ALL magic in Realmspace also stopped, which means tons of spelljammers got stranded! They must have been pretty pissed off for awhile (not too long though - we have no idea how long magic actually ceased to exist). The Spellplague would have caused similar, wild magic effects. The cerulean wave must have washed across the solar system as well. I picture a coalition of illithids, beholders, elves, Scro, neogi, etc, showing up at major cities (On Toril) and saying, "Cut the sh**!"
Across the Sea
As for my merger of Maztica and Laerakond - it actually work MUCH better than you can imagine. Hepmonaland and Maztica are a no-brainer, since we are missing the 'bottom' of one (GH), and the 'top' of the other (FR). Just stick those two together - they both have jungles on those 'borders'. The other two (Maz. and Abeir) ar easily blended, however - only ONE Maztican city ends up in a weird place in regards to Returned Abeir. Maztica's (known) sites are all clustered along the northern portion of the map, whilst 95% of Laerakond's are along the southern edge or central. The only Abeir stuff that would become wonky are those humongous northern mountain ranges (Fimbrul & Relmar), and we could either loose those entirely (not much going on there, and it would solve a lore snafu), or just shunt them north (which is what I planned to do). Everything else on the conjoined map is far enough away from each other so as to not interfere - plus its easy enough to explain, since the 'merger' happened 'in-setting', so the people are aware of the changes (thus, history does not need any 'fudging'). I really need to at least finish a quick version of that, to show you what I mean.
The one Maztican city that was on the southern coast can stay where it is as well - it falls out in the bottom right hand corner, far away from the other cities (and is actually kind of cool that one of those southern 'city-states' now has an Aztec vibe going on). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:40:06
The Spellplague broke the multiverse a little bit more and created new crystal spheres at least one where the event didnt happen at all, and another where it merged with a nearby crystal sphere. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:25:41
By the way, just to get philosophical for a second.... from a spelljammer/crystal sphere/phlogiston standpoint, what do you guys picture having happened with the spellplague? Personally we saw affects happen pretty much on a single world amongst multiple worlds in the entire crystal sphere. From what I have seen of Abeir it appears to be one world and there may not be anything beyond its steelsky... it may not even have a sun???? However, we're told that the "world" was twinned.... that doesn't mean ALL the crystal sphere was twinned. Could Abeir simply be a world within this crystal sphere that is somehow "phased" to not have an ability to interact with the other worlds unless it rams them.... but physically its still there... and its just orbiting the same sun, but they can't see it (or maybe they can?). I'd always pictured some kind of twin'd out of phase universe both contained in one crystal sphere... but.... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:07:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - D&D's 'plane of vestiges' sounds like Marvel's 'Dimension of Manifestations' (basically, a setting's 'storage room' until some writer needs them). Although I'd place the former in the Shadowfell, and the latter in the Astral.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, why replace Maztica / Anchorome? Those pieces at least have some lore for them. Osse on the other hand...
I didn't get rid of them - in that map, I merged the upper half of Hepmonaland (the part we see on the GH maps) with Maztica. That was taken from an old map I did, and I already had Osse on it (which I swapped for the main Mystara continent in my Misbegotten Realms). Since I am now working on combining Maztica with Returned Abeir, it would be a threeway (although its very easy to keep Hep. and Maz. completely separate, just 'conjoined', and just 'hybridize' RA and Maz.). Both the maps we have for Maztica and what shows on the GH campaign map can be used as-is. So I guess its Hepmazticaland now.
Or would it be Returned Hepmazticaland? Or Hepmazticlaerakond?
You should know by now, Sleyvas, that I never just 'throw stuff away'. Every diamond is just a lump of coal until you apply some pressure and put a polish on it.
I wouldn't personally "merge" maztica and laerakond (stress on personally). There are people that like both (and while I know who likes Maztica, I'm not sure who is especially favored of Laerakond, but I'm sure there are some). In fact, I find Laerakond and Maztica aren't similar at all from what I've seen, so I'd actually probably just displace Laerakond somewhere like how we were discussing before of either putting it northeast of Evermeet. It could also fit North of what we've all been calling Osse and east of that small continent/island west of Anchorome, and that could open up paths into Kara-Tur/Osse/Anchorome and the other "nearby" small continents.... and yet it would be far enough away to not be immediate threats. If you did that, it would also probably fit quite well to throw in Io's blood islands or whatever they were called from the dragon setting.
Hell, we might find out that the sundering transferred more of Abeir over here than was pulled away, its just all displaced. Also, we never did hear what occurred with Abeir and the Zakharan and Kara-Turan areas (I'd imagine that Zakhara got more genasi like Calimshan did.... although it could be interesting if the yak folk origins are actually from Abeir, given their worship involving elemental death... and Kara-Tur... not sure what if anything to do with it). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:05:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They said that way back in the beginning of 4e, when we were only getting trickles of news from them about the changes (because if you recall, the rules came out WAY before we got a 4e FRCG).
Since we have a corresponding event in Ravenloft (The Grand Comjunction), and another in Krynn (the Cataclysm), and perhaps could even lump-in the 'Greyhawk Wars' (since Iuz started it all, and he IS the son of Graz'zt, who IS multiversal AND has connections to FR), it makes sense that it did. I believe the comparison used was 'like ripples in a pond'. Heck, you could even toss-in 'The Great War' of Eberron; if it happened 'a century ago', and its timeline hasn't been altered (much), then THAT event DID correspond to the Spellplague as well. Did Dark Sun have anything major? I know there was some big changes between editions, but was there anything 'cataclysmic'? Mystara's been mostly ignored... I think there may have been a major event in regards to the Hollow Earth (of Mystara). Any others? Just minor ones, right?
Heck, if want to go further afield, Golarion lost its 'main god' a century ago as well (Mystra in disguise?  ), and had a major catastrophic event (and they still have an 'endless hurricane' since then, called the Eye of Abendego). reaching, but it works.
Anything that 'upsets the apple-cart' in the cosmology sends those ripples throughout the multiverse. Many of FR's Powers are multiversal in nature, and Mystra herself was DvR30+ (so, a tad higher than 'Greater God', which gives her near-Overgod status - nothing to sneeze at in terms of the Planes).
As for me, I blame it on the elves. I ALWAYS blame it on the elves. 
I would disagree with this assessment, for the simple fact that 3E basically shunted the Realms off into its own cosmos, disconnected from anything else.
Not to mention the fact that TSR once gave specific information about how all the timelines lined up -- so the Grand Conjunction was something like 20 years before the Sellplague, and the Cataclysm was more than 300 years earlier. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 15:52:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sorry, was away for few days. The 'triad' is part of Spelljammer canon. AuldDragon called it the 'Radiant Triangle', which is probably correct, since I am no SJ expert and I once went looking for that reference and couldn't find it (although I KNOW it exists... just like that damn Candlekeep illithid I'm still looking for...)
As for "Why would Toril-altering affects necessarily ripple towards Krynn and Oerth?" - because THEY DO. The Spellplague happened, Mystra died, and Savras go 'cast into the ethers'. Asmodeus found him, absorbed him, and BECAME A GOD... EVERYWHERE. What happens on Toril DOES NOT 'stay on Toril'.
When I use Brian James' old Chronology of the Primes, the year of the Spellplague just so happens to coincide with the Grand Conjunction in Ravenloft, where Vecna was purposely trying to disrupt stuff across multiple realities (to help him escape the Domains of Dread... which he DID). Vecna even had a Red Wizard of Thay (briefly) working for him in RL, IIRC.
There is FR canon, and then there is 'D&D canon', which is built upon the Great Wheel (Planescape), Spelljammer, and Ravenloft, because all three cross into every other setting. D&D canon supercedes FR canon because FR is a subset of the greater whole. I recall there being a fuss between the PS fans and the DL fans because Tiamet (Takhisis) DIED on Krynnn... BUT.. Takhisis was merely one aspect of Tiamet (and we've had aspects of Tiamet die on Toril as well... and she came back). Its rather hard to truly kill a god... or a fiend.
And the reason for that is that outsiders have planer connections. What happens to you in one sphere isn't the 'end all', but it does effect the over-all well-being of an entity. Fiends regenerate naturally, on their home turf. I would assume so do celestials. The 'person' (fiend/avatar/angel/whatever) we 'see' in the Prime isn't really there at all - that's just a temporary body built out of material from the plane itself. Theoretically, the same should happen if a prime mortal traveled astrally (without their body) to other planes and something happened to them. In canon, they die in 'real life' as well, but that just goes back to my theory of Dogma - that your belief in something makes it real... for you. You think you will die so you do. The reality is, it should work the same way as it does when a fiend is destroyed in the prime. Mortals don't have to 'reform', because they already have a physical presence on their home plane, at all times. So what should happen - barring Dogma - is that a person returns in a coma, and takes some time to heal (awaken). Of course, most folks don't have the century to wait like Fiends do to regenerate.
But I digress...
Its all interconnected. The Spellplague DID effect the greater multiverse. The designers even said so. Thats why I believe Toril (and perhaps Oerth & Krynn) are 'lynchpins' of the universe - that the 'Radiant triangle' actually means something. Somehow, Bane became a core deity after the spellplague. I like to think that was Bane all along - that he already had started on that path long ago, to insure he had a 'back-up'. The Bane we thought had returned was really Xvim posing as his father (waiting on my 'Wooly sighting'). Meantime, one or more aspects (avatars) of Bane had already begun to drum-up support on other worlds. When the Spellplague hit, Core Bane may have either reconnected with his FR aspect (and taken over his son), OR - and I prefer it this way - he left his son in charge of his 'FR Bane' persona, and just gets a "little something-something on the back end" (great quote from the movie Be Cool), meaning, he 'gets his cut'. Now that 5e is here, we have both Xvim and bane (I think), so that could mean any number of things. Its probably just Xvim playing both parts... or not.
Lolth was a drow deity from Greyhawk. Actually, she was a demon (queen). Now we have some backstory that she began in some 'fey place' when the elves themselves first began (in Faerie, I would assume, since thats where Tintageer was located). So even though the Decent of the Drow happened in The Realms, and Lolth herself was from Faerie (and originated in the GH setting), EVERYTHING regarding her stays true to the greater multiverse, including what befall in the War of the spider-Queen series in FR (she got her own realm and no longer dwells in the Abyss).
So, yeah... if it happens in Toril, EVERYTHING is affected, everywhere. Thats just how it goes. Hell, some folks even believe Mystra and Wee Jas are the same Goddess, even though PS material states they were friends (which doesn't prove anything either way - gods talk to themselves all the time).
"Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth... There is no spoon."
Reality is what mortals believe it to be. There is no 'multiverse', only a complicated set of laws we built ourselves because we crave structure. There is but one set of gods, one 'hell', and one 'heaven'. Because every world has their own set of beliefs about these things, Sages come up with all kinds of theories about the universe.. which are all true, and untrue, at the same time. The truth depends on the reality (setting) you are currently occupying, and even 'the gods' have to bend to those rules. Thus, there is no 'Core Bane'. There is no core 'Tyr'. There is no core 'Oghma'. Only our belief in the fact that these are all different makes them different. One cosmology, one universe; and everything in it is 'just around the next bend' from everything else. After all, isn't that the most basic premise of The Forgotten Realms? That everything is 'connected'?
Just a sidebar... Azuth, not Savras, got absorbed by Asmodeus. Savras disappeared whenever dweomerheart "exploded".... note that I put "" around exploded for my own personal homebrew reasons. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 03:33:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"D&D canon supercedes FR canon because FR is a subset of the greater whole."
Obviously WotC's attitude. I can understand it. But I don't agree.
Part of the problem they were having (in 2e) was producing enough material for ALL those settings. As much as we (FR) got in 2e, can you imagine how much more there would have been if all those resources producing stuff for those other settings had all gone toward FR? Don't think of this as a bad thing - it might turn into a 'new Golden Age', where D&D IS The Forgotten Realms. If we ever get back to how it was in 2e, we could eventually see more lore than ever before (and yes, all those other settings are still 'out there', and have now become sub-settings of FR, the 'hub' world.).
And now I just remembered Aebrynis, the Birthright setting. I don't think anything happened to THAT (mostly because its forgotten about, so something could have happened, and we just don't know it). Personally, I think it sounds suspiciously like 'Abeir'... so maybe something DID happen to it.
Although I don't think there's any connection. After all, that setting had this big juxtaposition between 'Light' & 'Darkness' (the Shadoworld). Its not like we have anything like that in FR (*cough* Shadow Weave *cough*). Plus they had a big problem with giant Fomorians, not like the small kind FR has... or used to have... before 4e... hmmmmmmmm... 
Abeir...ynes  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 03:21:44
They said that way back in the beginning of 4e, when we were only getting trickles of news from them about the changes (because if you recall, the rules came out WAY before we got a 4e FRCG).
Since we have a corresponding event in Ravenloft (The Grand Comjunction), and another in Krynn (the Cataclysm), and perhaps could even lump-in the 'Greyhawk Wars' (since Iuz started it all, and he IS the son of Graz'zt, who IS multiversal AND has connections to FR), it makes sense that it did. I believe the comparison used was 'like ripples in a pond'. Heck, you could even toss-in 'The Great War' of Eberron; if it happened 'a century ago', and its timeline hasn't been altered (much), then THAT event DID correspond to the Spellplague as well. Did Dark Sun have anything major? I know there was some big changes between editions, but was there anything 'cataclysmic'? Mystara's been mostly ignored... I think there may have been a major event in regards to the Hollow Earth (of Mystara). Any others? Just minor ones, right?
Heck, if want to go further afield, Golarion lost its 'main god' a century ago as well (Mystra in disguise? ), and had a major catastrophic event (and they still have an 'endless hurricane' since then, called the Eye of Abendego). reaching, but it works.
Anything that 'upsets the apple-cart' in the cosmology sends those ripples throughout the multiverse. Many of FR's Powers are multiversal in nature, and Mystra herself was DvR30+ (so, a tad higher than 'Greater God', which gives her near-Overgod status - nothing to sneeze at in terms of the Planes).
As for me, I blame it on the elves. I ALWAYS blame it on the elves. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 00:54:10
I didn't realize that the designers had said that the Spellplague had effected the whole cosmos, but I guess it makes sense. And if the Spellplague did, so would the Sundering, which somehow appears to have thinned the barrier between Greyhawk and the FR. Its for from the first time FR has crossed over. Its had crossovers with Greyhawk, Nentir Vale, Dragonlance, Planescape, Ravenloft, prehaps Darksun (if you count the Abyssal Plague books), Spelljammer. If you count DDO then Eberron too. So its an important world, so I guess it makes sense the effects would ripple out beyond FR. |
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