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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2008 :  13:49:22  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message
Further to George's sterling Narfell/Raumathar post above, I'd just like to add that the novel Frostfell details some of the last days of Winterkeep where native mages had been corrupted and possessed by fiendish ice creatures. I can't remember all the details, but if someone else could that'd be just super.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2008 :  15:05:13  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A black earth genasi from Mulhorand would be ridiculed if trying to make a living as, say, a lap dancer in a high-end city festhall or club, an attendant arranging tiny fragile ceramics or jewelry pieces in a crowded shop, or perhaps a fashion model...



Could you elaborate a bit on the "why" of this? That second one (arranger of jewelry and ceramics) is especially puzzling to me.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2008 :  15:44:55  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Ah. Ed tells me he was speaking of the incongruity of a large-featured (massive muscles, large hands and fingers, "heavy" appearance) genasi trying to work in crowded, gleaming, ornate surroundings full of breakables. (The "bull in a china shop" image.)
Ed wasn't saying genasi are clumsy or wouldn't be able to perform the necessary tasks for such employment, Ed was pointing at the unlikelihood of anyone in, say, Suzail HIRING a "brutish-looking" genasi when they can select "shop help" from among dozens of tall, curvaceous, beautiful female human applicants. Who are 'traditionally' the sort of attendants found in such shops (as opposed to the owners or jewellers themselves, who may be dwarves, gnomes, or humans of any appearance; many are bespectacled [thanks to years of peering exactingly at tiny things] and frankly "dumpy" persons).
There. One potted explanation, served up fresh'n'hot . . .
love,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2008 :  17:48:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Thank you for those Speedy Answers.

But I was hoping for a comment on "Raw Ed".

Just my immaturity showing through.

Anyhow, I think I was on the right track then - its not so much an granted title, but more like the title of "Elder Statesman" that an ex-U.S. President receives. It was earned in full at one time, and a person granted such a position is welcome to come back and 'serve' (in the loosest sense of the word).

I thought El may have been a former Mage Royal, but I was un-aware that Khelben may have been part of the organization at one time - I always pictured him meddling more in 'The North'. Was I right about their being other members of the 'old gaurd' still about in the Realms? I know that Vangy now has that honor as well, and I was wondering if there were any other ex-War Wizards that are famous (and current). Perhaps maybe a lich....

I'm glad to know that Ed creates seperately for each setting he works on, and I do hope that HIS Anchorome makes it into print someday.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  01:36:02  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ah. Ed tells me he was speaking of the incongruity of a large-featured (massive muscles, large hands and fingers, "heavy" appearance) genasi trying to work in crowded, gleaming, ornate surroundings full of breakables. (The "bull in a china shop" image.)
Ed wasn't saying genasi are clumsy or wouldn't be able to perform the necessary tasks for such employment, Ed was pointing at the unlikelihood of anyone in, say, Suzail HIRING a "brutish-looking" genasi when they can select "shop help" from among dozens of tall, curvaceous, beautiful female human applicants. Who are 'traditionally' the sort of attendants found in such shops (as opposed to the owners or jewellers themselves, who may be dwarves, gnomes, or humans of any appearance; many are bespectacled [thanks to years of peering exactingly at tiny things] and frankly "dumpy" persons).
There. One potted explanation, served up fresh'n'hot . . .
love,
THO



That makes sense--thank you.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  01:43:53  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Great lore
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Landro
Acolyte

New Zealand
1 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  05:57:41  Show Profile  Visit Landro's Homepage Send Landro a Private Message
Hello everyone.

I'm new to this forum, but one has to start somwhere.

I was wondering if there was much in the way of established lore on the topic of ArchLiches in the realms?

How does one become an archlich? Are the rituals any different than those used by regular liches, or does the future lich just suck up the evil and hope they don't get tainted too badly in the process? Are there any archliches of note outside the one alredy mentioned in Waterdeep: City of Splendors? How are they viewed by Faerun at large, or at least in the main centres?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  06:08:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Landro, while I'm sure Ed will have *something* to say on this, I recommend you find a copy of REF5 Lords of Darkness, which includes a section on liches in the Realms. In addition, Ed's discussed liches and the process of lichdom previously in his replies here at Candlekeep. You may also want to search through those compiled reply files for entries that contain the word "lich." Also, though it isn't specifically a Realms-tome, I would also recommend the 2e RAVENLOFT source:- Van Richten's Guide to the Lich. For me, it is the most accurate and detailed rendering of the lich ever to be published for the D&D canon.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Landro
Acolyte

New Zealand
1 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  10:21:50  Show Profile  Visit Landro's Homepage Send Landro a Private Message
You will have to forgive me for my n00bishness here Sage, but I'm afraid that I seem unable to search for posts with specific words or phrases in them. Rather, I get directed to threads with the term in them, despite what it says in the FAQ.

Sadly, when the threads are 80+ pages each this isn't the most useful search result. Have I missed some blatantly simple option in the search features, or do I misunderstand what you mean by "compiled reply files" here?

I didn't recall any section specifically on Liches in LoD although I will be sure to check again at the earliest opportunity. 2e sources are a little before my source book collecting days I'm afraid...... but i'll keep my eyes peeled.
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  11:48:16  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Landro

Have I missed some blatantly simple option in the search features, or do I misunderstand what you mean by "compiled reply files" here?



There are compilations of Ed's replies at:
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/so_saith_ed.htm

That might be easier to search for any Ed quotes (at least pre 2008).

Gomez


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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  13:49:16  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Landro

You will have to forgive me for my n00bishness here Sage, but I'm afraid that I seem unable to search for posts with specific words or phrases in them. Rather, I get directed to threads with the term in them, despite what it says in the FAQ.

Sadly, when the threads are 80+ pages each this isn't the most useful search result. Have I missed some blatantly simple option in the search features, or do I misunderstand what you mean by "compiled reply files" here?
Gomez has provided the link to the archived replies here at Candlekeep. That's the source I suggested you search through earlier.
quote:
I didn't recall any section specifically on Liches in LoD although I will be sure to check again at the earliest opportunity. 2e sources are a little before my source book collecting days I'm afraid...... but i'll keep my eyes peeled.
Keep in mind that I'm referring to the original Lords of Darkness tome:- http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/products/9240.htm

And not the 3e version.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  16:05:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Also, when I "Search", the search words I use are highlighted, making it much easier (and faster!) to look through the pages and find what you want.

I just assumed it worked this way for everyone - doesn't it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  19:22:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, when I "Search", the search words I use are highlighted, making it much easier (and faster!) to look through the pages and find what you want.

I just assumed it worked this way for everyone - doesn't it?



It does. But since the search engine only directs you to the thread, and not the specific page within the thread, it can still prove tedious.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  19:31:42  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Isn't there an Arch-Lich template in some 3.obsolete book?

To get Ed's attention to the topic of Arch-Liches, please permit me to ask a question which I don't think has ever been specifically answered: in what way do Arch-Liches differ from Baelnorns (aside from not being Elves)?



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  19:53:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Has anyone compiled a list of FR Liches?

Aside from flavor, I never really saw much differnce between Liches, Arch-Liches, and Baelnorns....

Now Demi-Liches, they are something very different.

Don't "The Skulls" of Skullport classify as a unique form of those? And hasn't at least one been destroyed?

I do so love my Liches.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2008 21:20:07
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2008 :  21:42:19  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
I believe the Mythal of Undermountain is the Phlyachery of all the skulls in Undermountain, as long as it functions, the skulls can't be truly destroyed, don't quote me on this.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2008 :  03:23:42  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Isn't there an Arch-Lich template in some 3.obsolete book?

To get Ed's attention to the topic of Arch-Liches, please permit me to ask a question which I don't think has ever been specifically answered: in what way do Arch-Liches differ from Baelnorns (aside from not being Elves)?



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2008 :  14:25:40  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message
My question for Ed is, in what month (and maybe even, what day) did the fall of Netheril occur in -339 DR?? If this information is available (and I cannot find it in How the Mighty are Fallen or the Netheril boxed set or any other source so far). Thanks!

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2008 :  19:39:22  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Isn't there an Arch-Lich template in some 3.obsolete book?




It's in Monsters of Faerun p.90 under "Lich, Good."

It's a very abbreviated template, but says they have the same abilities as a normal lich, plus turn undead, animate dead, walk on water, and turning immunity.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2008 :  20:20:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Isn't there an Arch-Lich template in some 3.obsolete book?




It's in Monsters of Faerun p.90 under "Lich, Good."

It's a very abbreviated template, but says they have the same abilities as a normal lich, plus turn undead, animate dead, walk on water, and turning immunity.



The 2E version had more abilities. They also had some innate ability to control some flavors of existing undead, and they also had nine spells that they could cast once per day without having to study them (the spell automatically reloaded in their memory after 24 hours).

I won't swear to it, but I think the archlich first appeared in Ed's SJR1 Lost Ships -- prolly my fave Spelljammer supplement (I still love some of those ships, and the gemsword is just too cool! ).

Monsters of Faerûn also lumped lythari in with lycanthropes, which I think violated the original intent of the critter for simplicity.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 May 2008 20:25:29
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2008 :  00:13:02  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message
You are correct, or furriest of hamsters.
Archlich did first appear in lost ships, a spelljammer ship crash
landed on some planet, and the archlich in questions is looking
to take back to the flow.
Spelljammer was just cool stuff.

Hey, has anybody ever used the 4 lost sons of Arvandaar as a
hook or basis for a game, just wondering?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2008 :  01:55:53  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Landro

How does one become an archlich? Are the rituals any different than those used by regular liches, or does the future lich just suck up the evil and hope they don't get tainted too badly in the process?
Given that the usual lichnee process, most fully described in REF5 Lords of Darkness, involves things like the blood of an infant, the process for archliches is not the same. It's best described in SJR1 Lost Ships [yes, I love that book too! ]. Of course, for a PC, finding that process is not as simple as looking it up in a book.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2008 :  02:22:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
I've always thought the deliberate embrace of undeath was a bit of an odd option for cheating death. One idea I've always preferred was for a mage to transfer his consciousness into a specially-prepared automaton. The end result (no longer worrying about death, aging, and other physical frailities) is the same, plus the automaton body would be more durable, nicer to look at, and wouldn't be physically rotting away. I know if I wanted to last a few more centuries, I'd choose an option where my fingers falling off wouldn't be a concern...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 May 2008 02:25:30
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe

147 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2008 :  04:46:17  Show Profile  Visit GoCeraf's Homepage Send GoCeraf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've always thought the deliberate embrace of undeath was a bit of an odd option for cheating death. One idea I've always preferred was for a mage to transfer his consciousness into a specially-prepared automaton. The end result (no longer worrying about death, aging, and other physical frailities) is the same, plus the automaton body would be more durable, nicer to look at, and wouldn't be physically rotting away. I know if I wanted to last a few more centuries, I'd choose an option where my fingers falling off wouldn't be a concern...



In the Mask of the Betrayer expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2, there is a Red Wizard who has done just this, though it was not so much for the cheating death principle as it was to facilitate his experiments. With a clay golem form, he was able to handle highly volatile magical substances and hot cauldron contents with ease.

A snippet of my sparse Realms knowledge for you.

Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2008 :  20:03:28  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all.
Markustay, what SORT (wink, giggle) of comment were you looking for, re. “Raw Ed”? After all these years, I can make SO many . . .
And yes, Ed did create archliches for LOST SHIPS (after obtaining design approval from the TSR designers of the day to include a “good lich” in the game, to support some good or at least benign to PCs liches that had appeared in fiction and game products).
As for this comment, from Wooly Rupert: “I've always thought the deliberate embrace of undeath was a bit of an odd option for cheating death. One idea I've always preferred was for a mage to transfer his consciousness into a specially-prepared automaton. The end result (no longer worrying about death, aging, and other physical frailities) is the same, plus the automaton body would be more durable, nicer to look at, and wouldn't be physically rotting away. I know if I wanted to last a few more centuries, I'd choose an option where my fingers falling off wouldn't be a concern...”
. . . Ed has a response, as follows:



I see nothing at all wrong with your reasoning, Wooly, and although Newt Ewell specifically asked me to add a brief “drow biomech” section to the original (2nd Ed) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, the “official but secret” design directives of the time were to avoid all “android and robot” flavouring in AD&D® because TSR was planning a robot roleplaying game, PROTON FIRE. Longtime DRAGON® readers may recall that it was featured in the back pages of just one issue of the magazine, as a preview; the game was “killed” on the very brink of its release by TSR’s upper management. So, just like de-emphasizing psionics in the Realms because they were to be a cornerstone of Dark Sun®, we were told to avoid mechanical/robotic/android/bionic elements for the AD&D® game. THAT’S why the embrace of undeath rather than the “build your own new body.”
As for the alternative “clone or birth your own new body and then move into it” approach, THAT ran afoul of the internal Code of Ethics, TSR wanting to avoid further trouble with the religious Moral Majority stances of the day. For years - - as various Realms NPCs have aged - - I have flirted and toyed in my Realms fiction with exploring the ethical choices they make about how to prolong life (for those who wish to do so). I plan, editors willing, to do more of that in future fiction.



So saith Ed. Illuminating the design backrooms of the Realms and D&D® for us all.
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 22 May 2008 20:08:11
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