| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 23:54:38
I'm trying to get a sense of when the 'Descent of the Drow' occurred, when did Correlon force them underground for their evil?
Of course, originally Correlon doesn't force them below, per the Fiend Folio, page 33:
quote:
Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new t o the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts.
I can't find much else, especially in the way of firm dates, certainly not for Greyhawk, the game world which originated the drow. However, there is a date in the Forgotten Realms. In Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, page 31 we find:
quote:
-10,000 DR
Descent of the Drow: Corellon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months' passing into the Underdark.
Now, I did a unified timeline for TSR's multiverse a few years back, focusing on Spelljammer. Here's a link:
A Spelljammer Timeline [revised] [http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/history/pw_timeline.html]
Using various crossover points I determined that 5043 OC, 581 CY, and 1361 DR were the same year. OC is the Greyhawk Olven calendar, CY is the Greyhawk Common Year, and DR is the Forgotten Realm's Dale Reckoning.
So, -10,000 DR = -10,780 CY and -6318 OC.
Now, on page 13 of the 1e DMG we find these age ranges listed as 'venerable' for the various elven subraces:
elf, aquatic 1001-1200
elf, Drow 801-1000
elf, gray 1501-2000
elf, high 1201-1600
elf, wood 1101-1350
But 2e changed these ages, in the Complete Book of Elves (page 37) we get lowered ages, compare:
Subrace/1e AD&D Ages/2e AD&D Ages
elf, aquatic/1001-1200/300-600
elf, Drow/801-1000/225-525
elf, gray/1501-2000/425-925
elf, high/1201-1600/350-750
elf, wood/1101-1350/325-725
I prefer the shorter 2e elven lifespans.
So, given this info, do people agree with me that it is reasonable to assume the Descent of the Drow occurred at roughly the same time across the AD&D multiverse? At -10,000 DR?
Also, has anyone else found any date references for the Descent of the Drow that I might have missed?
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 19:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
you know what as far as Corellon not helping his children in that whatever it was game, did any one of you ever consider the possible fact that AO told him no, or hinted grander things to come regardless how the game ended to him???
No. Most of involved deities aren't limited to Realmspace in the first place. And specifically Seldarine are molly-coddling elves all the time. Which is also the most obvious reason why elves act moronic more often than not: when they occasionally manage to discover the frying pan's real temperature, this data gets discarded as an inexplicable anomaly, if not human (or drow) conspiracy, because they get their butts saved from almost all contacts with the cast iron surface covered in sizzling oil. 
No, there's no way around this that won't be utterly ludicrous. The whole plot of LP can stand for ten seconds without keeling over and getting buried under all the inconsistencies growing out of it only if everything related to just about every subject involved is blatantly retconned to fit it.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Corellon is my favorite deity (thus my name), but I've seen many comments on how much people dislike him.
I think people just dislike "The People" in general. Because, in the words of one Aperusa - quote:
This one calls you "sir". An elf shows you respect? If you are not great captain, you must be small god.
So, while Corellon obviously is humility incarnate for the head of an elven pantheon, given the attitude of an average mortal elf, this... doesn't sound quite like it would in just about any other case.  |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 18:28:26
Corellon is not so cool in my opinion. Sure he may be the elven overdeity and all that but i would go with sfdragon and pledge when it comes to elven deities my interest to Sehanine Moonbow or the Dark Hunter |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 18:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I fully admit I did not think of that, other than Ao not wanting the gods to be so involved with mortal affairs. I love Corellon, I was just trying to look at different possibilities, since so many people seem to hate him.
I don't know why anyone would hate him...I think he is a bad-arse! Not my favorite God...but one of my favorite Birthright Characters was molded after him! I played that character exactly the way Big C was detailed in his attitude, arms, armor...almost everything. The only difference being that my Caelcormac was a bit more eager to deal death to humans...
Corellon is my favorite deity (thus my name), but I've seen many comments on how much people dislike him. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 12:53:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would be interested in if you could tie Golarion in with this though! Do you have access to any of that material related to the Decent of the Drow there?
Timeline wise I've connected Golarion and the Forgotten Realms through Egypt and the Mulhorandi exodus.
-8650 DR / 6434 BC / -9009 YK / -9388 CY / -5293 AR: Azlant falls on Golarion and the Age of Darkness begins.
-6827 DR / 4611 BC / -7186 YK / -7565 CY / -3470 AR: Ancient Osirion is founded on Golarion.
-5266 DR / 3050 BC / -5625 YK / -6006 CY / -1909 AR: An-Hepsu XI establishes a portal to Earth and conquers before Upper and Lower Egypt.
-4788 DR / 2572 BC / -5147 YK / -5528 CY / -1431 AR: Ancient Osirion declines once more and the portal between Earth and Golarion is lost.
-4366 DR / 2150 BC / -4725 YK / -5104 CY / -1009 AR: Portal opens from Toril to Earth and the first influx of slaves come through.
-3966 DR / 1750 BC / -4325 YK / -4704 CY / -609 AR: Portal closes from Toril to Earth after the second influx of slaves come through.
1357 DR / 3573 AD / 998 YK / 579 CY / 4714 AR: Current Year
---
Unfortunately my timeline is off by 1,000 years or so if you want the Descent of the Drow on Toril to match up with the arrival of Drow on Golarion. You could easily shift Golarion time 1,000 years off to match it up given there's no canon connection between Ancient Osirion and Earth. But to me Ancient Osirion and Egypt are definitely connected. The culture of Ancient Osirion appears to be pretty much the same as Ancient Egypt. Also if you shift Golarion by 1,000 years it means that present day Golarion (as depicted in the books) doesn't match up with present day Forgotten Realms (as depicted in the original boxed set).
Perhaps on Golarion the drow were excommunicated but weren't driven underground and instead were simply driven out of the elven communities. It wasn't until Earthfall that the drow fled underground. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 05:47:12
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I fully admit I did not think of that, other than Ao not wanting the gods to be so involved with mortal affairs. I love Corellon, I was just trying to look at different possibilities, since so many people seem to hate him.
I don't know why anyone would hate him...I think he is a bad-arse! Not my favorite God...but one of my favorite Birthright Characters was molded after him! I played that character exactly the way Big C was detailed in his attitude, arms, armor...almost everything. The only difference being that my Caelcormac was a bit more eager to deal death to humans... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 05:44:46
I fully admit I did not think of that, other than Ao not wanting the gods to be so involved with mortal affairs. I love Corellon, I was just trying to look at different possibilities, since so many people seem to hate him. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 05:41:11
you know what as far as Corellon not helping his children in that whatever it was game, did any one of you ever consider the possible fact that AO told him no, or hinted grander things to come regardless how the game ended to him???
edit: made something clearer |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 04:59:45
I think Big C is doing a fine job...considering that the elves are on the upswing in the Forgotten Realms...just saying. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 04:47:39
If the Dark Disaster hadn't happened, there probably wouldn't even be drow--they'd still be Illytheri or "dark elves". Either that, or they'd be a small race, consisting of only those who were "corrupted". Then again, I suppose that race would have grown over time. Hmm...
As for Corellon "not lifting a finger" to help his children, well, I'll admit his--and that of the other Seldarine--passivity can be contradictory to his character, considering he is the Protector, and there have been times he should have stepped in. However, the gods are sometimes accused of being too involved in mortal affairs, and the Seldarine (except for maybe Shav) are aware of this, so their passivity might be due to that.
The Seldarine, IIRC, encourage the elves to better themselves, for the sake of the People. Religion/spirituality is important to many elves, and most go to Arvandor when they die, unless they specifically worship a deity outside the elven pantheon. By nature, I think the elves are closer to their gods than other races (save perhaps Mystra's Chosen, or any chosen, really), and they were born of Corellon's blood, so in a way, he is always with them, and works through them. In this way, he is not passive at all.
These thoughts are coming to me as I type, so forgive me if I am rambling. Tis all my admittedly biased opinion, since I am fond of the Seldarine. As I said in another thread (there have been several threads about this topic) Corellon isn't the only god who has done something stupid that makes you *headdesk*. Stealing the Tablets of Fate and causing the Spellplague, anyone?
*wasn't going to comment more or comment on this thread, but I had to say my piece* |
| jerrod |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 23:33:29
I only recall the SONG of the irda as being the most important thing to the elder ogres.the song of their history.one thing I wasn't sure about was rather the irda retained their immortally.... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 23:23:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
They were in the beginning- isn't that what caused them to degenerate to "normal" ogres in the first place? Or did I imagine that whole slavery and slaughter bit?
No. The ogres were the true firstborn race of the gods of evil. As the most beautiful and intelligent creatures of Krynn, they lorded over a mighty empire that enslaved those they considered "lesser" races -- particularly humans -- making them their servants.
It wasn't until Igraine sought to change all that, that the evil ogres were cast down and their appearance changed to suit their vile mindsets, while those that followed Igraine to their island home among the Dragon Isles, retained the race's pronounced beauty and became the embodiments of compassion and goodness.
Yes, Sage, that was exactly what I was referring to, actually. I read the novel on them, though it has been several years, and I had forgotten the exact details, but I DID remember that it had to do with keeping slaves and that some of them were VERY harsh masters. There was also something about the tree with the Heart of the Irda, I think the artifact was called. However, AFAIK, it was the only substantial lore on them at all. But it was basically a similar case to what was done to the Drow. Bad kids get punished and disowned, and changed appearance so that the good kids won't get mistaken for them. Typical godly arrogant short-sighted punishment. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 21:12:52
When I first encountered the FR (though drizzt) I considered corellon to be my favorite power,but after seeing how he has done nothing to combat the human aggression towards his children...I found it harder and harder to keep admiring him and the seldarine. Where is that legendary might that cause the other gods to respect his might?the only god human god vie seen him humble is malar,back before the first flowering.is he afaid of sparking a war with the human gods?he is said to be the protector of the elven people but I dnt see him standing up for the People.even when the elf eater was loosed on evermeet they didn't lift a finger(and that was an elder evil),even shevarash didn't come to the aid of the island and it's suppose to be corellon and his sphere of influence.it's like watching your home get burglarized and watching the crook walkout with the plasma screen,without even using the gun(sahadrian) to stop it. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 20:36:39
Sehanine is where its at man....... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 04:32:23
There has been a lot of discussion around the Descent of the Drow lately, and it is indeed a very interesting topic. I like drow. However, as one of the (apparently few) who actually likes Corellon (as is obvious by my name) I refuse to keep reading about how much people hate him |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 03:50:36
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
They were in the beginning- isn't that what caused them to degenerate to "normal" ogers in the first place? Or did I imagine that whole slavery and slaughter bit?
No. The ogres were the true firstborn race of the gods of evil. As the most beautiful and intelligent creatures of Krynn, they lorded over a mighty empire that enslaved those they considered "lesser" races -- particularly humans -- making them their servants.
It wasn't until Igraine sought to change all that, that the evil ogres were cast down and their appearance changed to suit their vile mindsets, while those that followed Igraine to their island home among the Dragon Isles, retained the race's pronounced beauty and became the embodiments of compassion and goodness. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 03:46:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't you mean the Irda? Those were the evil (but attractive) "high" ogres.
The Irda weren't evil.
I think Alystra's referring to the fact that Igraine, originally an evil ogre, learnt compassion from a human slave which eventually put him and "his people" [the Irda] on the path to goodness. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 02:54:30
They were in the beginning- isn't that what caused them to degenerate to "normal" ogers in the first place? Or did I imagine that whole slavery and slaughter bit? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 00:12:48
The Irda escaped the curse of the Ogres because of their goodness. The Nzunta are a purest race that escapes the curse of the ogres because they kill off any offspring that are not pure...they are completely evil and wicked. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 23:58:19
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't you mean the Irda? Those were the evil (but attractive) "high" ogres.
The Irda weren't evil. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 23:24:30
Don't you mean the Irda? Those were the evil (but attractive) "high" ogres. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 05:25:21
I'm in agreement that Drow don't exist on Krynn "naturally"...
As I said, the Nzunta (Evil High Ogres) are far better at filling that role for me; though there are such a limited number of them.
I have used Drow in Krynn though...not as a race; but as individuals "Gifted" by Takhisis for serving her. Essentially, all the same abilities as Drow... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 05:01:06
True, true, sir Sage. Krynn's elven history is very different from most other worlds. They have never had the kind of wars among themselves that elves of other worlds had and that lead tot he Descent. And the "dark elf" high lord was just that- one of the Krynnish "dark elves"- one who went against the laws of his people and was banished for it. Not a drow. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 03:22:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The presence of drow in that early work must have been an assumption on the part of a Jeff Grub (writer for DL7). Lolth doesn't exist in DL so Weis/Hickman must have decided drow would not exist...although I think some kind of migration shoulda/woulda occurred at some point.
That's part of it.
But it's also a reality that the world of DRAGONLANCE has a very specific setting framework with the select races and their relationships with the history of Krynn. Simply, there really just hasn't been a place for the drow, because the kinds of historical events that have often led to the creation of these kinds of elves elsewhere, have never occurred anywhere in Krynnish history. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The god of elven vampires is not listed in FR deities. Just as I wish jander sunstar had found out about the ritual to change back from undead to elf....
Even if he'd've known about it, it prolly can't be done in Ravenloft, and certainly not by a swordswinger. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 23:56:14
The god of elven vampires is not listed in FR deities. Just as I wish jander sunstar had found out about the ritual to change back from undead to elf.... |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 16:11:05
The presence of drow in that early work must have been an assumption on the part of a Jeff Grub (writer for DL7). Lolth doesn't exist in DL so Weis/Hickman must have decided drow would not exist...although I think some kind of migration shoulda/woulda occurred at some point. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 15:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Still looking through encounter tables...but pretty darned sure there was an official module that had Drow on the encounter table...
EDIT: Dragonlance 7
"There are also two “untrue elves.” These are the Half-Elven, product of elf and man, and the Dark Elven, a throwback to days before the Age of Dreams."
I'll just note that this odd occurrence of the concept of "untrue elves" in DRAGONLANCE, has been kind of phased out with later material. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 12:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path.
The moredhel are very interesting, to me, because of the fact that it's possible for them to Return and become eledhel. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 07:57:24
After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 07:55:52
After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path. |
|
|
