| Author |
 Topic  |
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 23:54:38
|
I'm trying to get a sense of when the 'Descent of the Drow' occurred, when did Correlon force them underground for their evil?
Of course, originally Correlon doesn't force them below, per the Fiend Folio, page 33:
quote:
Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new t o the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts.
I can't find much else, especially in the way of firm dates, certainly not for Greyhawk, the game world which originated the drow. However, there is a date in the Forgotten Realms. In Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, page 31 we find:
quote:
-10,000 DR
Descent of the Drow: Corellon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months' passing into the Underdark.
Now, I did a unified timeline for TSR's multiverse a few years back, focusing on Spelljammer. Here's a link:
A Spelljammer Timeline [revised] [http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/history/pw_timeline.html]
Using various crossover points I determined that 5043 OC, 581 CY, and 1361 DR were the same year. OC is the Greyhawk Olven calendar, CY is the Greyhawk Common Year, and DR is the Forgotten Realm's Dale Reckoning.
So, -10,000 DR = -10,780 CY and -6318 OC.
Now, on page 13 of the 1e DMG we find these age ranges listed as 'venerable' for the various elven subraces:
elf, aquatic 1001-1200
elf, Drow 801-1000
elf, gray 1501-2000
elf, high 1201-1600
elf, wood 1101-1350
But 2e changed these ages, in the Complete Book of Elves (page 37) we get lowered ages, compare:
Subrace/1e AD&D Ages/2e AD&D Ages
elf, aquatic/1001-1200/300-600
elf, Drow/801-1000/225-525
elf, gray/1501-2000/425-925
elf, high/1201-1600/350-750
elf, wood/1101-1350/325-725
I prefer the shorter 2e elven lifespans.
So, given this info, do people agree with me that it is reasonable to assume the Descent of the Drow occurred at roughly the same time across the AD&D multiverse? At -10,000 DR?
Also, has anyone else found any date references for the Descent of the Drow that I might have missed?
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:14:55
|
Works for me. Though I must admit that I have little knowledge of (or interest in, sorry!) Greyhawk or even Spelljammer.
Have you read Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves?
And there's a bunch of stuff about the descent of the drow in The Grand History of the Realms.
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
 |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:15:07
|
Sounds firm enough...though I have never tied the instances together; and instead treat each as a different instance of similar happening.
The -10,000 DR is good for the Realms though...and is canon as well.
EDIT:
I should also say that I actually don't like the tying of worlds so closely. I've gone back and forth with this over the years; and my current thought is that I like the worlds different for their own uniqueness.
I would be interested in if you could tie Golarion in with this though! Do you have access to any of that material related to the Decent of the Drow there?
In that world, they were essentially "Left Behind" elves who now are twisted by evil and have no tie to Lloth/Lolth at all. I really like them! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 07 Mar 2011 00:31:41 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 01:34:23
|
Brian R. James' Chronology of the Primes
That's as canon as it gets.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2011 01:34:43 |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:31:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Brian R. James' Chronology of the Primes
That's as canon as it gets.
No, he linked everything via Ravenloft, as I note in my Spelljammer chronology that doesn't make a lot of sense since Ravenloft has hints that time passes there differently. It's like tethering your boat to a another boat and expecting them to stay in the same place.
Still, I'd forgotten he did that. Thanks for the reminder.
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:35:31
|
| Well, I've checked over those dates myself at one point, and it sounds about right. FWIW, my own world has a different "descent" of the drow- they were originally members of the three main elven races that (similar the the Krynnish banishment of "dark elves") were cursed for turning against their own kind- often with members of the same clan or house warring against each other- and turned into the drow by godly intervention. It was the only way to tell the traitors from the loyal followers. So they were "born" as a race from the gray, high, and wood elven races. In my world, some evil elves can still be declared "dhaeraow" and transformed even in the present time, so that a gray or wood elf who commits especailly horrible crimes against other elves can still become a drow. Makes for some fun RP possibilities for an elf who suddenly finds himself cast out as a drow! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:34:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, I've checked over those dates myself at one point, and it sounds about right. FWIW, my own world has a different "descent" of the drow- they were originally members of the three main elven races that (similar the the Krynnish banishment of "dark elves") were cursed for turning against their own kind- often with members of the same clan or house warring against each other- and turned into the drow by godly intervention. It was the only way to tell the traitors from the loyal followers. So they were "born" as a race from the gray, high, and wood elven races. In my world, some evil elves can still be declared "dhaeraow" and transformed even in the present time, so that a gray or wood elf who commits especailly horrible crimes against other elves can still become a drow. Makes for some fun RP possibilities for an elf who suddenly finds himself cast out as a drow!
 Ohhhhhh...I like that! Consider it stolen for my own world! While elves in my world are simply called Fhey (with no subraces) I was toying with the idea of a purely diabolical branch of them; and I think you have just given me the "how they got there" explanation! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:58:53
|
The now-infamous trilogy aside (which I ignore), why can't the two rituals be related?
I've had this 'argument' before, but hear me out.
Suppose the Elves - from way back in the 'Faerie days', had a way of 'marking' a bad Elf. A way of labeling them 'Unseelie' for all other Elves (and other Fey creatures) to recognize? It would be a magical marking, that only fey-blooded creatures would see and recognize.
Now, fast-forward. On krynn they are still practicing a variant of this, marking the 'bad elves' as 'dark elves' (rather then 'unseelie', as it was originally intended). so, that works, right?
Now, the Elven High Mages of Toril decided to take that ritual to unprecedented extreme. Rather then mark a single elf, they would mark an entire clan (bloodline). This took High magic, and the help of a god or two. Something like this had never been attempted before, and considering their abysmal track-record with other High-Magic rituals (they don't seem to know what they are doing, do they?), something went awry.
Now, it is my belief that the ritual was somehow tampered with; that either Lolth or some other 'dark power' added-in a little of their own magic and twisted the ritual, changing the Dhaerow (traitors) into Drow - something that was not meant to occur.
So (just perhaps) the very goddess they venerate is responsible for their condition - their jet-black skins and aversion to daylight. They were only supposed to be marked in the same way that Krynnish dark elves are, but something... something sinister... went horribly wrong. She decided that the only way to make the dark elves completely hers was to drive them away from the surface and the world of the light Elves.
So what Drow priestesses refer to as 'Lolth's Blessing' was really a two-edged curse; they gained certain abilities (like Infravision and magics), but lost other things in exchange (it is canon that normal Elves are nurtured by sunlight).
So you see, although on the surface the two sets of lore look very different, at their core they accomplished much the same thing (or, at least, they were supposed to).
To me, this theory does not cast Corellon (and the Seldarine) is such a bad light as the accepted story does. Not that I have any love for the Elves or their gods, but for the sake of continuity it doesn't make much sense what they did, if they did so on purpose. What sort of deity - a supposed 'protector' of their racial identity - curse an alarmingly large portion of 'his' people like that... just for burning some trees?
I think somewhere in Hell Asmodeus must have said "Oh snap! NO he didn't!" 
(and if I need explain that - Asmodeus could never hope to rise to that level of evil - to me, that seemed like the ultimate betrayal). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2011 05:04:40 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:13:37
|
Hrm. There are a few ideas in there I might steal. Running a storyline where Asmodeus' chosen is working to covertly convert drow en masse; among other methods he's playing heavily on the "your goddess screws you over a lot" card(more verbose than that, but that's the gist of it).
Oddly enough, 4e does seem to be painting Asmodeus as largely the one responsible for the duergar's transformation and current state. I forget the details exactly; the mindlayers used devil blood in their experiments on them or something like that. Either way, Asmodeus is their biggest patron, and he and Moradin apparently really hate each other. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:28:49
|
Actually, it wasn't just for burning trees- though to most elves that is akin to sacrilege in itself- it was for all the OTHER horrible things they did along with that. Like sacrificing other elves to gain power, twisting the very earth in unnatural ways, betraying their fellow elves, etc. I was the sheer scope of their depravity that led to it. And while the curse DID seem to go a bit overboard, I think they were more concerned with making sure that ALL the traitors were branded.
Oh, and for the record, the Krynnish ritual does not actually "mark" the elf in any way- it's really more like a ceremonial stripping of his status and name as an elf. His name is purged from all records of the elves, he is no longer spoken to (or about, for the most part) and he is banished PUBLICLY from his homeland, nor permitted to ever return to ANY elven lands on pain of death. There is no actual "branding" involved, magical or otherwise. I've read through the "ritual" they use, and it's really more like a public form of shame and casting out. Ceremony is a better term. And the only magic involved is to determine if he is actually "guilty" of a crime in the first place (which can be as simple as learning magic when one belongs to a house/caste that is forbidden to do so, like Dalamar did.)
@Dalor: Feel free to use it! I used the Krynnish banishment "ritual" I mentioned above as the basis, and then added the godly marking element of the drow. In fact, my favorite drow PC is the son of an elf who was subjected to the rite for multiple heinous crimes he committed in the pursuit of persona goals. So that particular PC is "technically" only half-drow. (The transformed drow does not have all the abilities of one who is born as one.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:43:04
|
Thus proving to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, just how BORING Dragginglance is.
My way is MUCH cooler (your way sounds like a Catholic-Church style excommunication).
And by extension, if the 'branding' is like an excommunication (be it physical, magical, or purely mental), then what I propose for the (Torillian) Elves was more like an Interdict.
Like I said, obviously not canon, but FAR more preferable (to me, at least) then "You guys who massacred an entire nation (Miyeritar)? I like you! You guys who burned some trees and fail to grovel before me... I will make you black!"
Yeaaaaaah... the whole "make you black so no-one likes you" thing rubs me completely the wrong way.... I'll take my homebrew version (in this one case) over canon any day. Corellon comes off as the universe's biggest racist the official way.
I may not like Elves, but even for me, that's a bit much. Better to say the ritual was tainted and be done with it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2011 05:44:11 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:54:18
|
| Well, now that you mention it, the Krynnish way WAS sort of like an excommunication. What I did was take that notion and combine it with the canon Descent of FR and try to make the whole thing make sense for my world. This way, only those who were originally evil were actually cursed- but it still ended up bleeding down to their offspring, which might explain a lot of the bad feelings between the two branches. I liked it better than the simple blanket curse of FR lore. In the version I use, it even ended up split between members of the same family! Some became drow, while those who were still loyal and "good" remained elves, which could be interesting if a pair of twins ended up split that way. The "evil twin" would have been cursed, while the other would still be an elf. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:54:41
|
| Better that they all were simply killed...that would have been the end of it. I mean, if you have the power to change them that way...may as well cause them to die and be done. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:23:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Have you read Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves?
Only four or five times.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I should also say that I actually don't like the tying of worlds so closely. I've gone back and forth with this over the years; and my current thought is that I like the worlds different for their own uniqueness.
Oh, I somewhat agree with you. But the Multiverse was pretty firmly established from 1e on. I limit multiverse worlds to those worlds that have a connection, like the Michael Moorcock worlds, Lankhamar (the boys even made a trip to Earth) and most TSR worlds. I keep Dark Sun and Borthright out of it because they were designed to stay out of it. I put Mystara in it only because my characters all jumped from it in the old, old days.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would be interested in if you could tie Golarion in with this though! Do you have access to any of that material related to the Decent of the Drow there?
I don't actually know what Golarion is, sorry!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The now-infamous trilogy aside (which I ignore), why can't the two rituals be related?
More ignorance on my part. What 'now-infamous' trilogy?
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:29:59
|
I'm not sure if he's referring to the Lady Penitant, or something else.
@ Dalor: Perhaps it might have been better that way, but I've noticed that Corellon prefers NOT to kill his own "children", no matter HOW bad they act. He DOES still love them, but has to punish them somehow. I suppose it was the worst he was willing to do to them. I would assume he has a streak of compassion for them still, given the events of the LP nooks. He took the transformed ones back under his wing at the end. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:12:46
|
You haven't figured out that I'm the devil's advocate yet have you?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:35:50
|
Elves thrive in sunlight (according to 2e sources, they actually take nourishment from it).
THE WORST THING imaginable to an elf is to lock it away below ground, never again to feel the warm embrace of the sun, and the breeze upon their face. What Corellon did - IF he was actually responsible for the outcome - was a fate FAR WORSE then death, to an elf.
Oh... and they ate each other those first few years, before they figured out how to survive in the Underdark. That's canon.
If that's how Corellon "loves his children", then I sure as hell hope no Elf ever loves me.
Just sayin'......
And yeah, I meant LP, which I ignore completely. So much potential lost... {sigh}
You know, I once joked that Corellon and Asmodeus were one and the same, but the more I think about it.... androgynous & 'beautiful beyond measure' (Lucifer was purportedly very vain), pointed ears, an animal's tail (maybe not FR canon, but some elves have them, like Huldrefolk), and he is sometimes depicted as 'the master of the hunt' (who's other name is 'The Horned God'). Too bad I think Asmodeus is MUCH older then Corellon, although... I could still make a connection if I really wanted to... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2011 01:37:01 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 05:32:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The Horned God is NOT the same as a(the) devil. That's a separate theology altogether.
Ohhhh...but to many faiths he is the same!
Cernunnos (or whatever he may be called in his various guises) is a favorite study of mine currently...and I can PROMISE YOU that "the church" treated him as the devil. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 05:58:14
|
@Alystra - while I am sensitive to people's RW beliefs, the connections are there, weather we want to accept what 'later lore' piled on top of the original (and by 'later lore', i mean the catholic Church and others).
The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. If we go with Judaeo-Christian myths for some of our game lore (which we do, given the game is rife with Demons and Devils, not to mention Angels, etc), Lucifer (who may or may not be Asmodeus) was a fallen Angel, and God's most beautiful creation.
Have you ever read the excellent Michael Moorcock novel, The Warhound and the World's Pain? Not only was Satan majestically beautiful, but he was also a very piteous figure. You see, god charged him with tempting mortals, and the problem was, he was too damn good at his job. He sent the hero on quest to discover a cure for the world's pain (the Holy Grail), in hopes of reconciling with his father. A very good read.
Anyway, since we are blending various mythos together, and the Medieval church demonified the 'spirits' (gods, etc) of pagans, we can extrapolate out from that that Corellon may have been sent forth from the Heavens himself (I'm thinking Titania's court corresponds to that in this amalgam). He (and his brother Gru-Maas) were driven from faerie because of the 'wildness' of their followers (connecting them somewhat to the Bachanae{sp?} now). That means that either Corellon or Grumsh could have been the D&D earth's 'devil'.
Anyhow, I am stepping FAR outside of FR canon now, but I may want to play with some of that for my own Campaign World. Spin the 'Elven god' as a tragic figure, cast out of the Heavens. Since my setting revolves around a lawful 'evil' theocratic Empire (think RC Church during the Inquisition), that is a great way for me to spin that particular mythos (I also borrow liberally from the Hermetic material from Ars magica - GREAT setting, BTW).
'Maleficium' (as in, non-sanctioned magic) is illegal within the boundaries of 'The Empire' (illegal everywhere, actually, but hard to enforce elsewhere), and I was going to have just a Hecate-like moon goddess as the opposition to the 'Church of the Sun', but I think a 'Wild huntsman' style elven god may also be part of the bigger picture now. I'd create a situation similar to how that stuff was portrayed in Mists of Avalon (with the 'old people' dying out, and magic getting weaker).
This site is great fuel creative juices.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Mar 2011 05:59:24 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:30:22
|
Yes, Dalor, it DID. Lots of the Celtic deities (and Roman, and Greek, etc) were. The horned god, however, is also another name for the Green Man, which is really just a nature god, much like Pan or Dionysus. BTW, MT, it's Baccae. You're thinking Baccanalia, which is the "drunken orgy" celebration. Also, I was not speaking strictly from a RW standpoint- it's in all the lore that they have nothing in common except the name. Probably due to the fact that RW lore is frequently used as the base for much D&D lore. The two were transposed when monks saw images of Cernunnos, and tried to convince the followers that they were worshiping their "devil" or Fallen One. So Cernunnos got stuck with an unfortunate association, just because he happened to have horns. Pan, likewise. doesn't mean they actually WERE one and the same, even in D&D. You can certainly spin it that way if you wish, I don't get offended, I just like to keep the record straight on these things. From a purely research/lore perspective, mind you. If there is one thing I hate, it's ignorant misconceptions. Not that anyone here is ignorant, of course, but not everyone has access to the same sources. I just happen to have some really good ones for this sort of thing. lol!
I actually kind of like your take, at least as it pertains to the Seely/Unseely courts and the elves. I would not go as far as to include Asmodeus in that, but having Gruumsh at least as a "Fallen" member of the Early Fae Court makes sense- in fact, it makes that Tolkein lore seem really spot on! Perhaps he tried to take over from their father Oberon, and Corellon tried to stop him, but something went awry (Araushnee's doing?), Corellon was blamed as well, and both were booted out. Thus starting their feud. Corellon might as a god of forests, be the Green Man, and Gruumsh the Master of the Hunt. Don't see the Horned God in that, though. Oberon, maybe? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:43:45
|
There already is an elven "devil" figure of sorts. I can't recall which one (or which source), but there is a seldarine vampire who represents beauty, temptation, mischief, and of course predatory blood lust.
The Tolkein equivalent of Gruumsh might be Sauron, once known as Melkor, perhaps the finest among the Valar before he turned to evil ways. They both have one eye, countless legions of orcs, and an insatiable hatred for elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 07:12:56
|
I'm very aware of the differences.
I was a Priesthood holder for many years...but also one that studied extensively all forms of miracles, magic and history.
As for the Drow...I never liked the Forgotten Realms take on it (or Greyhawk)...but I REALLY like the Golarion take on it!
Good stuff that. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 12:35:01
|
| Arik, is Kanchelsis this "elven devil" you speak of? He is certainly shaping up to fill that role for me and some of his history seems to indicate a Seldarine connection, but I'm not sure canon-wise we're speaking of the same being here. Do you remember anything else? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
|
Edited by - Fellfire on 10 Mar 2011 12:47:22 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 00:37:12
|
| @ Dalor: *snickers* Lol, I'm "clergy" myself, actually. Different faith, of course, but the idea's the same. Unfortunately, I'm not legally recognized for weddings and such- YET. I do like delving into all aspects of theology though, particularly ancient religions. I Not only do I find them fascinating, but they make GREAT fodder for my games! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 18:01:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I'm trying to get a sense of when the 'Descent of the Drow' occurred, when did Correlon force them underground for their evil?
Of course, originally Correlon doesn't force them below, per the Fiend Folio, page 33:
quote:
Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new t o the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts.
It's not "something didn't happen", but rather "someone is being cute about it". You know, that adorable habit with which every other elf-focused book from Complete Book of Elves to Evermeet: Island of Elves had a lot of fun? 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, the Elven High Mages of Toril decided to take that ritual to unprecedented extreme. Rather then mark a single elf, they would mark an entire clan (bloodline). This took High magic, and the help of a god or two. Something like this had never been attempted before, and considering their abysmal track-record with other High-Magic rituals (they don't seem to know what they are doing, do they?), something went awry.
Now, it is my belief that the ritual was somehow tampered with; that either Lolth or some other 'dark power' added-in a little of their own magic and twisted the ritual, changing the Dhaerow (traitors) into Drow - something that was not meant to occur.
So (just perhaps) the very goddess they venerate is responsible for their condition - their jet-black skins and aversion to daylight. They were only supposed to be marked in the same way that Krynnish dark elves are, but something... something sinister... went horribly wrong.
Given the resources and risks involved, in the context of already ongoing wars where it's mostly clear who stands where, the "invisible mark" theory doesn't make much sense.
Most likely the original idea was to curse loosely defined "black-hearted fire-using Ilythiir heretics who turned from the Seldarine!" with serious disadvantages (such as light hypersensetivity) and/or deprivation of advantages (such as the sort of connection to Weave which allows High Magic).
IMO considering FR approach to deities and High Magic the parts where they winged it and the ritual was bound to run out of intended parameters anyway and where it's possible that Lolth and maybe Ghanadaur interfered and twisted it a little (e.g. to give their followers an edge)... that's expectable.
The scenario "one deity gives a curse, then another takes turn and gives a related blessing, until both are too frustrated to go on" certainly popped up in mythology. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 18:53:10
|
the golarion Drow's decent was right before or during earthfall when a few hundred elves or so started worshipping demons/devils and such in the darklands.
remember the drow in golarion are not the same as drow in greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms or the drow in Eberron. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 17 Aug 2013 19:00:29 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 19:22:13
|
I think this may be a case, once again, of Elven High Magic 'running Amok'.
My theory has always been that when the Dark Elves were cursed, the entire Ilythiir bloodline was cursed... but not all of them were on Toril. The Elves (according to the GHotR) were sent from faerie by the fey to wage war on dragons, for whatever obscure reason. I propose that the elves were sent to many worlds to do this, not just Toril, and a large number of them were of the warlike Ilythiir tribe. There were other Grugach (wild elf) clans as well, such as the Miyertari, but only those with Ilythiir blood suffered from the Descent Curse.
On some worlds, the change was automatic, and just as dramatic. On others, those worlds own 'Weaves' filtered the effects, creating a time-causality effect; in other words, the 'taint' had been placed upon them with the curse, and on many worlds the Ilythiir bloodline fell down the same dark path as their Torillian kin. The curse worked to create drow of them, either directly or indirectly, over the course of time. Some worlds 'dark elves' are albino (Mystara), while on others, they remain looking very much like other elves (DL), but whatever the reason, all dark Elves were originally of the 'blood of Ilythiir', and eventually succumbed to same the same taint and fate.
Thats how I explain it.
Except for the Oerth (GH) Drow - I have it where an especially fanatical Drow High priestess left (or was driven out) of Menzoberranzan, and after wandering through the Underlands (Beyond Countless Doorways) with her followers, founded Erelhei-Cinlu. For a time, that settlement continued to trade with Torillian drow, until the route was forgotten (which is why that GH city appears in a list of in an FR source). It wasn't until centuries later that those drow rediscovered the surface, and found they had traveled to another world. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2013 19:25:36 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 21:31:39
|
| That works for all but the DL "dark elves", MT. As noted before, they are not even a "race" as such- in fact, very few elves are ever labeled "dark" there. I know of only two in the DL canon (in the novels). Dalamar was one, and I believe Lauralantha(sp?) was another, after she was rejected as leader by some elves and called a traitor. It was never clear if she really was "dark", however, as some claimed she had passed the "test" of the ceremony but was booted out anyway. So there really aren't any "dark elves" in DL at all- just a handful of elves who were kicked out of the "family", so to speak. They still belong to the same elven race as before, and nothing is changed except for their social status. I wouldn't even count them among the dark elves of the multiverse. Especially when there are only one or two in existence- and even THAT many is unusual. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2013 : 05:58:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That works for all but the DL "dark elves", MT. As noted before, they are not even a "race" as such- in fact, very few elves are ever labeled "dark" there. I know of only two in the DL canon (in the novels). Dalamar was one, and I believe Lauralantha(sp?) was another, after she was rejected as leader by some elves and called a traitor. It was never clear if she really was "dark", however, as some claimed she had passed the "test" of the ceremony but was booted out anyway. So there really aren't any "dark elves" in DL at all- just a handful of elves who were kicked out of the "family", so to speak. They still belong to the same elven race as before, and nothing is changed except for their social status. I wouldn't even count them among the dark elves of the multiverse. Especially when there are only one or two in existence- and even THAT many is unusual.
I don't recall Laurana being called dark, but Porthios and Alhana were. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Descent of the Drow & the multiverse?
