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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2012 : 19:09:08
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How many dimensions of reality are there? And how many can Toril's most powerful beings manage to see? I was surprised when I read the part in Unholy where Szass Tam, burdened by the collapse of one of the Dread Rings, cast a unique spell that allowed him to see reality in nine dimensions, enabling him to see the alternative routes upon which to establish the links of the remaining DRs, and cut the shattered one from the rest. Such feat severely weakened him. Is such thing common among archmages? Who else are known to have cast similar spell?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 May 2012 19:19:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 19:21:43
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Are you saying this is a CANON instance of there being numerous 'Torils'? 
By George! I think we've got it!!! 
I think it works like this, for deities - you can only be aware of that which you are aware of. In other words, its like a mortal not looking in a certain direction. If you do not know something (you should know about) is coming from that direction, you don't see it. You have to know where to look, which is the major limitation to omnipresence. I have seen numerous examples of this in source and novel - a deity can see anything, IF they know where to look (and are also not being actively blocked by something more powerful).
The other problem is, doesn't that mean he had nine other Szass Tam's staring right back at him? 
Or does it mean he momentarily merged his mind with his 'other selves'? 
I have never heard of this specific example being used before, but it just seems to me to be a high-level (epic?) form of scrying... and I thought divination can't be performed by practitioners of necromancy? Its their weak-spot.
Ergo, I would rule this is a work-around only necromancers would employ - it taps into other planes, making it more of a translocative (Conjuration) spell, then a divining one. It actually seems to combine two schools - Conjuration & Enchantment (seeing through the eyes of other selves) - so I would definitely say this is a work-around for epic necromancers.
As for who would use it? Probably Larloch, and other high-end necros. Guys like Khelben and Elminster could probably pull it off, but why bother? They have other means of divination. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 19:23:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 19:35:14
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Interesting questions and conjectures, MT.
I'm not sure if it's either seeing his other selves or merging them into one. It's more like seeing something ordinary people are not supposed to, something covered by the protective mantle of reality, or purely intended for 'higher' beings to view.
On Szass Tam and Necromancy: He's not just a necromancer. He had long ago mastered all schools of magic---that's the main reason no single zulkir dared confront him in a one-on-one battle. I suppose he could have performed the same divination that killed Yaphyll if he knew he risks were not that high.
On the spell in question: Nine is his limit. He knows he could have gone the next step---ten---but also knows it would either destroy or incapacitate him for a long while. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 May 2012 19:37:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:00:35
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Its probably an INT thing, or WIS, or both.
I don' know his stats, but I'd say a general rule-of-thumb (for persons capable of this) is WIS bonus + INT Bonus in how many worlds they could view. If you go over that limit, I'd say there was 10% cumulative chance of insanity (maybe higher, given Szass's estimations of his limitations). Many other bonuses could also apply (his undead state, deific 'help', artifacts, etc). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:18:22
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| Not dimension as in parallel universe, but dimension as in a minimum number of coordinates. A line is one dimensional, a plane is 2 dimensional, and a cube is 3 dimensional. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:27:44
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Exactly.
I wonder why seeing more than 3 dimensions is 'painful.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:34:02
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Ah, got it.
The spell makes less sense to me that way (why would seeing 'more' allow you to see other possibilities?)
Unless the spell can look into the dimension of Temporal Prime, and he was able to maneuver down side-paths (alternate outcomes to fate/prophesy). the problem with that is that if he can look through time, he should never be defeated (unless he was choosing the path with the least resistance, and got defeated regardless).
Anyhow, I go with 11-dimensional M-theory myself, but I'm just a 'bandwagon' kind of guy. 
If M-theory holds water, then Szass Tam was only denied two dimensions.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder why seeing more than 3 dimensions is 'painful.'
Because a mortal mind can't handle it? Its like trying to run 12,000 volts through a microprocessor.
And now I have a picture in my head of tam with smoke coming out of his ears. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 20:35:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:52:29
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That's most likely what would have happened if he went beyond his limit. He did it one dimension at a time, starting from four. When he reached nine, he was nearly lost his bearing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:54:22
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| It's been awhile since I read it, and since scientists don't fully understand 9 dimensions, it is assumed that the author didn't intend us to fully understand it either. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:56:21
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| Picture Homer Simpson going into the hypothetical 3rd dimension, which he did in Treehouse of Horror VI, Homer Cubed |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 21:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you saying this is a CANON instance of there being numerous 'Torils'?
-Darkvision, by Bruce Cordell, features an alternate dimension version of the planet. It is, of course, canon. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 22:14:29
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N-Dimensions are a rigorous topic in mathematics, physics, even philosophy. 4-dimensional hypergeometry is classic entry-level university stuff, while computers have long been able to model and manipulate data arrays with incomprehensibly high numbers of dimensional elements.
Szass would need to possess truly superhuman mental powers to envision the complexities of a 9-dimensional topology, even if only briefly, even if his mental capacities were momentarily augmented through magic. His stats show that he's a genius (and later a supra-genius), which might or might not be enough. I would think a more reasonable interpretation would be that his magic functioned as a sort of processor/filter discarding "irrelevant" details of little interest while producing a realtime analogy which reduces the 9-dimensional complex into a "lossy" 3-dimensional simplex. A spell like contact other plane would allow Szass to "use" the intellect (and perspective) of an extra-planar supermind for exactly this purpose - I think the description in the novel is just impressive-sounding fluff, ask the author.
Another possibility is that the dimensional axis is not spatial but temporal, similar to what's already been discussed above. Szass would still be seeing the Realms in normal threespace, except that he'd be viewing different temporal directions, presumably only focussing on possible "futures" stemming from his "present" coordinates. (In this model, "parallel" worlds are each a possible "future" derived from common "past" coordinates.) A spell like divination does something like this; it shows many possible outcomes and futures, allowing the diviner to (hopefully) determine the most probable outcome. Again, I think the descriptions in the novel are just pseudo-mathematical fluff, ask the author. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 May 2012 22:26:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A spell like divination does something like this; it shows many possible outcomes and futures, allowing the diviner to (hopefully) determine the most probable outcome.
Except that divination is more of temporal than spatial.
Does trying to see reality in more than three dimensions cause both physical and magical weakening or just the latter? If it's both, then the pressure and burden it inflicts living archmages with must be tenfold than it does to liches.
I think this spell must be one of the reasons Szass Tam took the trouble of erecting a Dread Ring in Neverwinter. He must have seen some magical links in the land that would otherwise have been invisible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 May 2013 10:52:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 13:35:48
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so what are these nine dimensions? I can think of length, width, depth, time (i.e. temporal prime), energy flow (aka gravity), planar concurrence (i.e. connectivity to other planes, both transitive and outer), phlogistic symmetry (i.e. how the crystal sphere exists in relation to the phlogiston and other crystal spheres), elemental balance (i.e. the balance of how Toril connects to the elemental planes), so that's 8 there. What would be the last that he needed to make his change? The relationship between the different realities related to Toril's crystal sphere (i.e. Abeir... and maybe even others)? The linkage of divine energy flow to Toril? The linkage of Toril to Ao? The linkage of souls to the crystal sphere?
also, how many dread rings were there (which we may not have that answer, as there may be some still hidden)? Might there have been one for each dimension he was trying to "affect" with his dread rings?
Scarily, are these the 11 dimensions that guide our own world according to M-theory, yet we haven't figured out what they are yet, how to detect them, nor how to effect them? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 13:53:22
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| Also, the dread ring ritual, might it simply cause the creation of either a new crystal sphere OR a new "twinning" of the existing crystal sphere (i.e. like what was done with Abeir and Toril..... a new sundering, which creates a third universe). Along those lines, was it Bane's aid that enabled Szass Tam to be able to detect all of these dimensions? If he does "create" this new universe, will Bane have some hold on it as a result, since he has a hold on Tam's soul? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 14:15:53
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I use M-theory. I like my fantastical to mesh with RW physics whenever possible.
I have it where one Greater Ordial (those beings two steps up the power ladder from Prime Ordials) - sometimes called 'Elder Gods' - is responsible for each of the dimensions. Mana, or 'Life', = The Gaea. The Material Plane = The Imaar (Ymir), but it was shattered in the Godwar, creating the Elemental Maelstrom (from which the four elemental planes and the Crystal spheres were distilled from). Gaea was forced to merge with her energy with her 'brother' in order to keep him from dying (dispersing) completely - hence why Gaea (life) is often considered 'the world' as well. She actually represents its life-giving properties. Thus Imaar isn't completely dead... he's just been in a coma since the beginning of time.
This affects all reality, such that spirits must be bound to material (from the Prime Material) else they cannot exist there. We see this with haunted locales and objects, and even in the way fey are tethered to certain natural places. In the case of most mortals, our bodies are our phylactories - its is the anchor that keeps our spirits here.
I also use Kronos (Time), Ptah (Space), and all the 'big guns' Hindu deities. In fact, I rely heavily on Hinduism to explain the upper echelons of my cosmic order, so that the Top 11 Ordials - the ones representing the 11 dimensions - are all part of the ParaBrahman, which is more of a concept then a being; it is the consciousness of the universe itself (so very much like 'The Force' in SW).
And each mortal has 11 different forces/aspects attached to it, represented by the Psyche, spirit, soul, etc, which in turn are each ruled over by one of the 11 primary Ordials. These are like reflections of ourselves in each dimension. When a mortal is 'unbalanced' it means he is focusing more on one or two aspects, rather then 'the whole'. Most mortals are unbalanced. When a mortal (Mystic) can balance all of his aspects/energies, then he has the potential to become a god, and more.
Oh... and Elder Gods (Greater Ordials) consider deities just very powerful mortals. They are like the 'farm team' for the real gods, which reside so much higher in the scheme of things. Real GODS rarely ever directly interact with mortals.
Thats how I work it all out. Maybe someday if I publish my own setting I can put it a lot more eloquently. Like I said, I blend a lot of D&D cosmology with RW religion, including Christianity, and even Wicca (the '11 spirits' attached to mortals are often referred to as 'familiar spirits'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2013 14:16:36 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 16:32:08
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I find it interesting that so many took this to meant alternate dimensions as alternate plans, or alternate parallel worlds. I took it to mean something very, very different. Perhaps it’s because I’m blind, but here’s what I got:
Normally our lich see’s in three dimensions, adding a fourth, means he would see depth as well. Adding a sixth means he’d perceive volume, etc. Why would he want to do this, because he’s looking at a model where the individual points of power that must be linked in a certain way as to achieve a certain end. He’s more or less looking at a representatation of all the Dred rings and the power that flows between them to achieve the end that is his spell. He needs to know what points are necessary to achieve the lines of power to a certain degree in a certain form, the question for him, which Dred Rings are interfering, given the loose of one. In short, anyone delt with wirring can understand part of the value of what our boy is doing. Taking it up to the number of levels that he did, while it mind sound good, to me was just a bit of nonsense. Of course, I could be wrong, and alternate relaties/ plains might be the order of the day; I just am not getting that from the line, or maybe it’s just that I didn’t much care for “Ring around the sun,” and all the spin offs that have come from it.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 16:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
N-Dimensions are a rigorous topic in mathematics, physics, even philosophy. 4-dimensional hypergeometry is classic entry-level university stuff, while computers have long been able to model and manipulate data arrays with incomprehensibly high numbers of dimensional elements.
Szass would need to possess truly superhuman mental powers to envision the complexities of a 9-dimensional topology, even if only briefly, even if his mental capacities were momentarily augmented through magic. His stats show that he's a genius (and later a supra-genius), which might or might not be enough. I would think a more reasonable interpretation would be that his magic functioned as a sort of processor/filter discarding "irrelevant" details of little interest while producing a realtime analogy which reduces the 9-dimensional complex into a "lossy" 3-dimensional simplex. A spell like contact other plane would allow Szass to "use" the intellect (and perspective) of an extra-planar supermind for exactly this purpose - I think the description in the novel is just impressive-sounding fluff, ask the author.
Another possibility is that the dimensional axis is not spatial but temporal, similar to what's already been discussed above. Szass would still be seeing the Realms in normal threespace, except that he'd be viewing different temporal directions, presumably only focussing on possible "futures" stemming from his "present" coordinates. (In this model, "parallel" worlds are each a possible "future" derived from common "past" coordinates.) A spell like divination does something like this; it shows many possible outcomes and futures, allowing the diviner to (hopefully) determine the most probable outcome. Again, I think the descriptions in the novel are just pseudo-mathematical fluff, ask the author.
If I had heard this post initially, I'd not have posted. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 03:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Just thought I would leave this here, as it sounded about right, with all this multiple time lines and stuff.http://imageshack.us/a/img27/2973/38375083tardis300.jpg
You may be closer to the truth than you actually realise.
I've always thought the veteran actor John Hurt could play an appreciable Elminster in any FORGOTTEN REALMS live-action venture. And, now, especially in the post "The Name of the Doctor," era and the revelation that [SPOILERS for both the Season 7 finale and the 50th Anniversary Special of Doctor Who follow] Hurt will play an incarnation of the Doctor, I definitely get an Elminster-vibe when I look at this image.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 09:05:42
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Just my two cents, for what they are worth.
To me, there are infinite dimensions.
The fourth dimension is time of course, but any dimension after the fifth inherently implies the existence of an "alternate reality", that is, another plane of existence, which may be a slightly different universe (e.g., exactly as the Prime, but all tressyms are extinct) or a totally different one (e.g., one of the Elemental Planes).
No use (to my group) for math/physics headaches.
Each of these Planes (or "dimensions" as some sages equivocally call them) has its own properties, including proximity points to other Planes.
In this view, travel in time (Chronomancy) is possible (basically it's just moving in one dimension, it can't be that hard  ), and Spelljamming does not necessarily take you to other Planes, as long as you don't Plane Shift the ship (!) or dive into portals.
By the way, as far as time hopping is concerned, we just chose which paradox to adhere to (the Terminator paradox or the Back to the Future paradox), and ran with it.
Oh, the joys of utter simplification!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 14:36:25
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I’d like to think the multiple dimensions are like the Blind Eternities (from Magic: The Gathering). They are an admixture of possibilities—pasts, presents, and futures whose demarcations are perceptible only to one of disciplined mind (planeswalker). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 16:43:42
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@Ze- I used to think like that, but then I realized there is actually a difference between dimensions and 'planes' (as defined within D&D).
So we can have a (near) infinite number of planes... but I prefer there to be a set number of dimensions.
Then within those planes are 'realms' - a'la Ravenloft/Shadowfel and perhaps the Feywild - and in extremely large (nearly limitless) planes, like the Prime Material, those 'realms' take the form of spheres. So technically (using my logic here), Ravenloft's domains are just small, attached clusters of spheres (and considering how the physics of each works differently, that makes perfect sense). Normally, demiplanes can only have realms rather then spheres - its probably an age/size/maturity thing.
Mortals can't create demiplanes, only pocket-planes, which is even a smaller step in planer evolution. However, a pocket plane can eventually 'grow' into a demiplane, and beyond, especially if the creator themselves have gained more power (so in the case of someone attaining divine ascension, a pocket plane they may have created would become their godly domain).
I suppose that means that a plane can eventually - maybe after billions of years - become a dimension, which could explain why we (using RW physics) have to keep adding dimensions into our models. How can you possibly attach a constant to an ever-expanding universe?
All of this is 'within' the universe. There is also 'stuff' outside the normal universe - the Far Realms, which I picture being the antideluvian, pre-Big Bang universe, which would probably look lie an extremely messy region of the Maelstrom. This is where Cthon (perhaps the first of The Ordials) dwells, and where aberrations (and anything psuedo-natural) comes from. I stick anything Cthulhuesque there. The Far Realms is that which was left behind when the universe formed, or rather was 'pushed aside', so it could constitute a theoretical 12th dimension (actually, the dimension of 'no dimension', just as void is the element of 'no elements').
So here I've spun something rather Lovecraftian intomy proto-cosmology - that there are beings that existed before our current universe, and some work constantly to destroy it (Shiva is an aspect of Cthon), while others - the 11 Elder Gods - work to keep the universe intact and moving along. I was never a big fan of Cthulhu stuff, but I am warming to it, and helps to explain a lot of stuff in D&D (especially in terms of alignment. There is an evil beyond evil - pure corruption that is often named chaos, and it eats way at the universe, while the universe itself continues to grow. Its where the frayed, tattered edges of reality brushes against the utter mindlessness of madness.
One of the nice surprises (IMO) that 4e brought to the fold was the idea that demons were corrupted elementals. While the lore-whore in me rails against how that goes against what we knew previously, the DM (and RW scholar) in me loves how easily that makes so many other things make sense. I often looked at pics of Efreet and Oriental Demons (oni) and wondered why they looked so much alike. Oni would be the corrupted elementals (demons) that still 'work for' the Celestian Beauracracy, and by CB I mean it in a broader sense, not just applied to oriental pantheons. Just because some employees switch religious affiliations doesn't mean they lost their 'day jobs'. Devils (and many demons) still fit into the planer structure and have their own jobs to do, whether the rest of the universe cares to admit it or not. they just like to kick back and sow havoc in their down-time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2013 16:46:10 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 16:53:15
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| Marcus, is your break in the law of non-contridiction at the end of your post entended? If it is then, I've a huge problem with the lore then. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 17:16:17
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Hi, all. I've read this unfolding discussion with great interest.
From the beginning, Ed's concept of the Realms has had many alternate worlds (in original D&D/AD&D rules terms, possibly infinite parallel Prime Material Planes), but it is important to use that idea, which we know to be "fact" for the Realms (canon not just from Ed, but from TSR, who on several occasions presented Oerth, Krynn, etc. as other Prime Materials), with care vis-a-vis the word "dimensions" (which can mean, as other posters here have said, time as a fourth dimension, and so on.
However, the "painful to view nine dimensions" part I can shed more light on.
Back at GenCon 17 (at the countryside U-W Parkside campus near Kenosha), Ed was on a panel with Gary Gygax, Jim Ward, Roger Moore, and several others that talked about "the adventurers' world view," and it was agreed that magic-users (in later game terms, arcane spellcasters) who could "see" or "feel" how to use magic (remember, some spell entries in the rulebooks specifically say the caster must visualize the spell effect or target or end result) could perceive the world in a way that, say, a farmer or woodcutter with no talent for magic could not.
The Vancian magic system that Gary used for D&D, with Jack Vance's permission, explicitly states in several of the Dying Earth tales that it takes a terrific effort of will to memorize spells, consciously "impressing" them on one's brain. So there is mental strain. I have flown helicopters with infrared vision goggles, in which my usual vision is overlaid with magnified weapon-sighting camera views AND overlaid with instrument readouts and aiming crosshairs AND overlaid with the infrared feed . . . and it hurts the head. Yes, you can used to it, and yes, you can even get good at it, but it's tiring and causes headaches (which is why there are laws limiting shifts in work requiring intense concentration and the use of vision, like long-distance truck driving).
So from this, we can extrapolate that some minds aren't "ready" to handle simultaneously seeing so many complex inputs (multiple dimensions) and other minds never will be; they "aren't capable of it." Ed has confirmed as much in GenCon seminar and panel discussions, and in his short stories about Noumea, and in discussions across the Realms "home campaign" gaming table.
Or in other words, there's a good reason powerful wizards are few and dangerous and very powerful. They have a unique talent, differing in its specifics from individual to individual. As Ed explained it to me once: "Consider Roger Zelazny's royal family of Amber, and compare them to archwizards in the Realms. Corwin, Roger's viewpoint character for the first five books, excels in what D&D gamers would call "constitution" - - he endures, he keeps going, he picks himself up and gets back at it. He's not the best fighter or general (that's Benedict), he's not the best wielder of the magical side of things (that's Dworkin, then Oberon, then Brand), he's not the best diplomat/manipulator (that's arguably Fiona) . . .and so on. Over to the Realms: Elminster is analogous to Corwin: he's not the best, he's the wily survivor. He's more worldly than most wizards because he sees more of the world, wants to, and pays attention - - whereas many wizards devote themselves more to perfecting this or that spell or series of related spells, and achieve more in a narrower sphere of endeavour."
Ed created Szass Tam, and from the outset crafted him to be THE man who was going to shake up Thay by overcoming its fractious system of zulkirs eternally locked in struggles with each other. He is a standout, even among archwizards.
Dennis, in answer to your last few questions (I'm rephrasing lore from Ed here): quite a few Imaskari and Netherese, back in the day, could cast spells that allowed them to see into multiple dimensions. Few of them regularly did so, because they didn't see it as useful. Most of them were concerned with other matters, and they looked into other dimensions only in a very localized way, so they could check the defenses of their stronghold or a prison or containment area they were constructing, looking for chinks and flaws. In other words, they were looking only at a very small, close area, fleetingly, for a particular purpose. And that "fleetingly" was in part because it is mentally exhausting, and weakening yourself in that manner can be dangerous when you have many powerful rivals who may be watching you and awaiting moments of weakness.
WHY did Ed design it to be mentally exhausting/weakening, and veteran authors like Richard Lee Byers think of it the same way?
Well, because they both saw that not putting in limitations on this can make for too-powerful beings who can't be defeated unless they act stupidly, and push storytelling DMs and writers into awkwardnesses that get well away from personal heroism (and the lures of politicking, fighting monsters, and recovering treasure).
. . . And that's enough from me, for now. I'm starting to sound like an old f*rt.
love,
THO |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 17:25:27
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Thus, the 'material plane isn't really a plane at all - its a dimension. The 3rd dimension, volume (space), which is governed by Ptah. The 4th dimension is time, ruled by Kronos, Ptah's 'brother', and the two are closely tied together.
Within the Material dimension are the five material planes - The Prime, and the elemental planes. At least, thats how it was. With the elemental planes ruptured, we now simply have the Maelstrom (the elemental 'soup' The Prime floats in) within the Material dimension, and perhaps a few other things we are unaware of (like my conjectural plane of the Æthervale - the Mittlemarch, Border Ethereal, or 'Wood Between the Worlds').
Come to think of it, the Æthervale may be the membrane between the dimensions. 'Thought' should have its own dimension (the 6th?*), and that should be the astral. That may also be the dimension with the weakest membrane, and why Cthon (Cthulhu) can so easily use that to enter our universe. The Dreamtime should be the border between the Æether and the astral.
And just about all of this is homebrew - very little is based upon canon sources, except in that all of it is based on previous works, both religious/mythological and fictional.
*The more I think on it, the more I think 'Thought' shouldn't be the Astral, and should be the 6th - it should be the 9th, outermost layer. The place that Marvel comics refers to as the "Dimension of Manifestations", where the High Ordials (the Elder Gods) dwell. In Cthulhu mythos, this might be Elysia... but probably not. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2013 11:44:57 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 09:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thus, the 'material plane isn't really a plane at all - its a dimension. The 3rd dimension, volume (space), which is governed by Ptah. The 4th dimension is time, ruled by Kronos, Ptah's 'brother', and the two are closely tied together.
Within the Material dimension are the five material planes - The Prime, and the elemental planes. At least, thats how it was. With the elemental planes ruptured, we now simply have the Maelstrom (the elemental 'soup' The Prime floats in) within the Material dimension, and perhaps a few other things we are unaware of (like my conjectural plane of the AÆthervale - the Mittlemarch, Border Ethereal, or 'Wood Between the Worlds').
Come to think of it, the Æthervale may be the membrane between the dimensions. 'Thought' should have its own dimension (the 6th?*), and that should be the astral. That may also be the dimension with the weakest membrane, and why Cthon (Cthulhu) can so easily use that to enter our universe. The Dreamtime should be the border between the Æether and the astral.
And just about all of this is homebrew - very little is based upon canon sources, except in that all of it is based on previous works, both religious/mythological and fictional.
*The more I think on it, the more I think 'Thought' shouldn't be the Astral, and should be the 6th - it should be the 9th, outermost layer. The place that Marvel comics refers to as the "Dimension of Manifestations", where the High Ordials (the Elder Gods) dwell. In Cthulhu mythos, this might be Elysia... but probably not.
I consider groups of planes that share similar traits as dimensions, the inner planes are different than the prime because its inhabitants can sense an extra dimension.
My guess on other dimensions:
1. Astral - 0 dimension
2. Dream dimension - two-dimensional, within the Wall of Color in the Ethereal. Includes dreams and dreamscapes.
3. Prime
4. Temporal dimension
5. Elemental dimension - Inner planes
6. Spirit dimension - Outer planes
7. Between dimension - possibly includes the plane of mirrors, shadow, Faerie, other border ethereals, ordial, or even parallel worlds
8. Hyper-reality - level 4 reality from Ravenloft, inhabited by mercurials from Doors to the Unknown
9. Divine dimension - level 5 reality where only powers exist
10. Nightmare dimension - inhabited by fifth-dimensional beings like the diaboli, brain collectors, and malferas
11.? Other weird dimensions, ether gaps, chososion's Macrocosm, and the Far Realm |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 11:57:31
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Ah, see... I put Dream and nightmare together in my version of Faerie.
This is a map of that - I've since change my mind about a lot of things, as my cosmology has expanded.
For awhile I had gone well away from that model, but now I'm thinking to move back in that direction - 'Fantasia' could be the 5th dimension, between the Astral and temporal. I'm thinking dimensions would exert more influence on dimensions below them, and less power over dimension above them, getting weaker as you move further out. This means that Faerie/Feywild isn't 'governed' by time, but time still has a lot of influence there. Thus, time would have very little power in the 11th dimension. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 13:21:11
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| The Nightmare dimension is from Mystara, it's not related to dreams, not really an appropriate name, called that way only because it's so horrid to 3d creatures. The Nightmare Court from Ravenloft is different and should belong in Dream. I forgot the Old Ones from Mystara, they exist beyond the Dimensional Vortex in the 6th and 7th dimension. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 16:34:11
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“There exists within the mind of many of us a desire to know those things that we can not observe directly, but can only gain glimpses of.” For me this is in part my interest with vision, I not having it, or when I was young, only having some hint of it, am fascinated this visual world in which I live. This world that in so many ways catters to this sense more than any other. In order to deal with the subject at hand from a rational perspective, I must first discuss each element separately: the concepts of dimensions; the concept of Cognitive, or mental cost; and lastly the dred rings themselves. After this, I shall attempt to bring the three together to deminstrate their interrelation. With that said let us precede
What we can understand depends on how many dimensions we have to perceive something. Consider a sphere. How the sphere appears depends on the number of dimensions we have to perceive it. If we take any line drawn in the sphere we have a one dimensional world. In a one dimensional world, we can perceive only points. If we move along a line (our one dimensional world) we see only the points. I suppose that in such
a world, it is impossible to get any idea about shape. There is just the oneness of mathematical points. In the two dimensional world we can perceive lines. If we take any flat section from the sphere, we would get a circle. This would be one possible 2 dimensional world. In this world, an inhabitant would notice lines. Using memory and imagination, the being could note the different lines. It is possible to get an idea of
a circle in such a world from studying the lines. The lines could be described and a mathematical relationship deduced.
Wise beings in this world could get an idea of circles and triangles and other shapes in this 2 dimensional world. They could not actually 'see' them, but
they could have an understanding of them. The beings in the 2 dimensional world would not have even an idea of the sphere because much of the sphere simply doesn't exist in there particular flat section the sphere. The sphere exists (to us) but does not exist in the 2 dimensional world. In a three dimensional world, the beings can see shapes. They can see circles which are part of the sphere. Just as in the 2 dimensional world, they beings
can 'put together' their perceptions in their minds to produce a shape, in the 3 dimensional world, the beings can put together the shapes to imagine a sphere. Thus, in the 3 dimensional world, the inhabitants can see the lines (which are sections of the circle) and the circle at the same time. They can actually see
that the lines are the same as the circle. They can in one perception see the lines AND the circle. Whereas, the inhabitants of the 2 dimensional world can 'see' only the lines and have to make a mental effort to deduce the circle. They cannot 'see' the circle directly. They can also theorise, as their colleagues did in the 2 dimensional world that there could be other bodies, of which the imagined or 'sensed' sphere was
only a section. Volume and mass, and their representations in shapes, are not something that are a product of sight, or the sensation of light upon the retina, but a cognitive overlay that supersedes vision directly. An instance of this can be seen in how very young children have difficulties with quontaties in glasses and such. Moving on then, in a 4 dimensional world, the inhabitants can actually see the sphere. They can see how a number of cross sections of the sphere come together to make the
sphere. In the 3 dimensional world there could be arguments over, say the colour of the sphere. Because no one in this world can actually see a sphere,
there is some possibility of arguing over, say, its colour or its smoothness. Does it have the same temperature over the whole surface, or not. Because
they do not have direct experience, there is always the possibility of disagreement.
In the 4 dimensional world, they can theorise that the sphere which they perceive is only a section of some other sphere. They cannot see this other sphere,
but could theorise that all spheres are examples or sections of a greater sphere which exists in 4 dimensions. This forth dimension is that of volume and mass, depending on the terms being used and the relative structure of the system being used to examin reality. Those individuals that regularly engage in submersible activities, are aware of the fourth dimension, as they work with it very often. These individuals have strong cognitive abilities in mental spatial relations and can easily overlay mental perceptions of shapes onto the perception of reality. While the discussion of dimensions can continue from here, with regards to modern understanding of them, it is probably more fruitful if we considered how early Renaissance thinkers thought of dimensions.
From here, we must take into consideration the historical context of the Forgotten Realms and it’s line of thought. Here we are told often enough that historically speaking, the Forgotten Realms is roughly analogus to that of Europe during the late middle ages and the early Renaissance. Given this we should note, that the fifth and sixth states deal with the Atomist and the Ether respectfully. The former dealing with terrestrial objects, rocks, plants, organisms, etc; while the Ether deals with the heavens, such as clouds, air, etc. Water fire are the states where the two intermingle, water bing closer to that of Ether, and fire closer to atomist. These two dimensions served as great importence to alcamy, and their relative significance to a world in which magic exists cannot be overstated. Moving on, we arrive at the dimension of prime, or force, which is where concepts of density, an interrelated element to mass and volume resides, but not wholly part of it exists. Gravity, was initially thought to be part of this dimension, and some modern thinkers, especially among string theory, still believe this to be so, despite evidence from particle physics suggesting the contrary. From here we enter the eighth deminsion, which is time, which for a period in modern human thought was to be part of spatial relations, but now, given particle physics is increasingly thought as a co-varying feature. This then leads us to the ninth dimension, which is thought, which requires little explanation is both time and space and all the other four can easily be underplayed upon. Ancient thinkers also thought as light being a separate dimension under thought, but this was long discarded by eastern thinkers by the fifteen hundreds or so(as a note, in modern times, or at least up till 2009, the prevailing view, independent of string theory, was that we had the four dimensions, a fifth which consisted of density dealing with those odd moments of molecular density that couldn’t easily be placed in the previous four, time, electro-magnetics, and mind). What I hope is self-evident is that with the exception of the fifth and sixth dimension, each lower order ddimension is capable of being placed within a higher order one (further argumentation on this point can be given if needed).
From this, we must depart briefly to discuss mental cost, or the cognitive feature relevant to direct neural consumption, sugar being broken down into ATP, which then fuels the neurological hardware that cognitive mechanisms are based upon. There is a significant body of evidence, that human beings have a limit on the number of cognitive mechanisms that can be operating at any given time; both those that they are aware of, and those that are not. The greater the complexity of the mechanism, and the more that they are aware of it’s presence, the greater the cost. There are a number of excellent neuro-cognitive texts on this subject, but for the moment, our discussion is only interested on touching on the subject here. Now, given what is above, it is obvious that going into the fourth dimension requires cognitive activation, and that it naturally follows that each step into a higher deminsion requires even greater cognitive activation. Meta-cognition, is a very interesting thing to watch neurologically, or so neurologists say. Of course, the more efficient the brain, the less of a light show one gets, but that’s another matter entirely. I shall also leave out discussions on lichs brains, which obviously, don’t produce ATP, but instead are run on a magical power source. Still, it is clear that thinking about other dimensions requires cognitive activation, and the working of magic requires cognitive activation, the two combined should require even more so. Now, holding these two elements, let us turn to our third topic, the Dred Rings. I shall admit that while I have no direct evidence for this in the literature as of yet, the argumentation is perfectly valid, it’s soundness is open for debate, but the logic is not. Yes, I know that admitting to the soundness part is inviting attack, but in argumentation one should expect that. Our planet, contains vast amounts of energy, just from an electro-magnetic source alone. Given this, and given that lore has established that virtually every aspect of the planet of FR contains the equivelent of a magical grid, one can easily transfer electro-magnetic principles to magical ones; with the exception that the magical ones are more powerful. Without bringing a large quontaty of argumentation into this discussion, which could already be too long, I believe that the dred rings tap into this magical grid, through the use of the vast amounts of of negative energy, which serve as linch pins into the grid. Through this magical grid, one can then impact all the various plans, which are not themselves deminsions, as the dimensions still impact these plans to varying degrees, as on a semi-continuum. If anyone has a better model for both the Dred Rings, and the universe of FR, I’m open to there it.
Holding these three arguments, we can now realize exactly why, our lich needed to go from each diminsion to another slowly, jumping from one to another already imposses cognitive strain, independent of any magical working, which makes perfect sense to me that the working of magic requires mental strain, the degree of which is directly related to spell complexity, cognitive adaptability, and the repetaveness of any mental action; habit strength applies to cognitive actions as much as behavioral ones. Now, to engage in his ritual, which see something very much like table magic, with the dred rings serving as the bending points of magic, and the region in which they are placed serving as the magical power plant, our lich must consider the flow of magic through the various transfer points, across space, both earth, air, water, and planner voids, through time, and consider the mental strain that all this will cause. He must therefore consider this through all nine dimensions and in so doing, engate in drastically consuming of mental energy. What he is doing then is altering his perceptions of reality in order to do this, without altering his sensations of reality, his senses. That in of itself calls upon considerable amounts of mental energy, and often requires the removal of one source of sensory stimulation, sometimes more to do so. It is no wonder that he felt the strain of what he was doing. No other outcome, to my mind, would be entirely exceptable, no matter the vastness of his cognitive capacity, which is why I rather liked the seen, even if I am still not sure if the author conveyed, what he meant to convey. This is nothing against the author, people use the wrong words from time to time, and meanings can become blurred as a consequence. Markustay, I strongly believe you are confusing the word plains with dimension, given the nature of the word “dimension.” A group of bounded plains in mathamatices is refered to as co-terminu, and would be a better concept for what I think you are getting at. You can of course disregard this, but I’d really hope you find another term… any other term.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 17:37:20
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An easy trick to wrap your mind around new dimension is this: Just like the 'Shadow of a 3D Cube' forms a 2D Square on a wall, a reflection of the 4th dimension can be made visible in a 3Dgraphic. What is seen then is called a tesseract the 4d cube that consists of 8 cubes perpendicular to eachother in the 3rd dimension.
Visual Aid
Moving Tesseract
So by thinking of each new dimension as an extrapolation of a reflection of the next dimension should "help" making sense of what there can be seen. Just as a dot, becomes a line in 2d, a cube in 3d and a tesseract in 4d, a new order of "objects that cant be real" need to be made to describe what Ssazz Tam sees when he looks into the 9th dimension with his 3d vision.
Contenders are hyperspheres (which consists of polydots, polycrosses and polycubes/tesseracts), superhyperspheres, etc. Objects looking a bit like this: hyperspheres
5-cells
Demidekeract
3-spheres
I think tampering with objects the mind can't fathom is already taxing in the real world, and on Toril, a large part of the understanding of the Art relies on a flexible understanding of these mathematical hypothesis. Understanding objects can be seen in more than 3 dimension is part of the secret of unlocking arcane spells, and lots of wizards describe seeing weird geometrical shapes when pulling on the weave for spell casting or memorization.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Countless Dimensions?
