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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2013 : 19:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
An easy trick to wrap your mind around new dimension is this: Just like the 'Shadow of a 3D Cube' forms a 2D Square on a wall, a reflection of the 4th dimension can be made visible in a 3Dgraphic. What is seen then is called a tesseract the 4d cube that consists of 8 cubes perpendicular to eachother in the 3rd dimension.
Visual Aid
Moving Tesseract
So by thinking of each new dimension as an extrapolation of a reflection of the next dimension should "help" making sense of what there can be seen. Just as a dot, becomes a line in 2d, a cube in 3d and a tesseract in 4d, a new order of "objects that cant be real" need to be made to describe what Ssazz Tam sees when he looks into the 9th dimension with his 3d vision.
Contenders are hyperspheres (which consists of polydots, polycrosses and polycubes/tesseracts), superhyperspheres, etc. Objects looking a bit like this: hyperspheres
5-cells
Demidekeract
3-spheres
I think tampering with objects the mind can't fathom is already taxing in the real world, and on Toril, a large part of the understanding of the Art relies on a flexible understanding of these mathematical hypothesis. Understanding objects can be seen in more than 3 dimension is part of the secret of unlocking arcane spells, and lots of wizards describe seeing weird geometrical shapes when pulling on the weave for spell casting or memorization.
I understand it, full comprehension, that's another story, just like color, etc. My issue, is that many individuals and it's not just here, seem to think that plans themselves are dimensins, when they aren't. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 23:53:18
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I agree with you Sighless on 'the plane and dimension is NOT the same' thing. Dimensions are Planes in a sense, but thats not what the author meant in this scenario. I believe he meant the mathematical defination of 'extra dimensional', which is beyond the visual spectrum of 3 dimensions.
There is also a case to be made he meant the D&D defination of 'extra dimensional', which (usually) deals with finite worlds within finite worlds, or spaces created within spaces that are bigger than possible, and distances made shorter by moving or looking through dimensional intersections. But I highly doubt that a divination would be improved by looking at a created space segregated from one's own.
Perhaps Szass Tamm did use a multitude of spaces of miniaturised dread ringed worlds and ran a few test case scenario divinations on them? This would be a powerful combination of a divination, scrying and genesis combined into a simultaneous projection of 9 scenarios of the dread rings interacting with his planned geomantic tampering.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 00:30:01
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I would imagine that one of the dimensions referred to would simply be a dimension of energy -- if not a source of energy, then a place where the flow of certain types of energies can be seen.
Perhaps the Weave itself is this other dimension... We've heard alot about it, and we know some folks and deities can see it... Perhaps that's what they are seeing, is the flow of energy between fixed points. Not like ley lines, something far greater in scope.
Actually, ley lines and earth nodes and such may just be places where the planar boundaries between the Weave dimension and the "regular" four dimensions are thin. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 May 2013 00:33:21 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 03:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have never heard of this specific example being used before, but it just seems to me to be a high-level (epic?) form of scrying... and I thought divination can't be performed by practitioners of necromancy? Its their weak-spot.
Ergo, I would rule this is a work-around only necromancers would employ - it taps into other planes, making it more of a translocative (Conjuration) spell, then a divining one. It actually seems to combine two schools - Conjuration & Enchantment (seeing through the eyes of other selves) - so I would definitely say this is a work-around for epic necromancers.
As for who would use it? Probably Larloch, and other high-end necros. Guys like Khelben and Elminster could probably pull it off, but why bother? They have other means of divination.
In 3.5 rules, you can choose two opposition schools if your specialize in one. You cannot choose Divination as an opposition school no matter what your specialization is.
A Red Wizard (the ones that enter the prestige class...well, you HAVE to enter the prestige class to become one anyway) must choose a 3rd opposition school. Of course, this means they have even more power in their specialized school.
How Szass Tam BROKE that rule is beyond me. There is a feat in "Lost Empires of Faerun" that allows you to learn and cast spells from one opposition school; meaning a specialist wizard will only have 1 opposition school and a Red Wizard just two.
The best answer is simple. Completely being blocked from certain schools of magic never really made sense to me. It was done as a balance issue, but the payback for losing out on potentially infinite amount of those specific types of magic was extremely weak. You can't even use scrolls, wands, or staffs with such magic as they are no longer considered to be "on your spell list". Of course, such Wizards have an easy way around that ---> maximum ranks in Use Magic Device. Which I am sure Szass must have. But it's still a weak argument.
Hence why I think Pathfinder's ruling on opposition schools is perfect. You choose two schools but instead of being barred, you simply are stuck having to prepare a larger concentration of magic in order to cast those spells. You can still prepare and cast spells from your opposition schools BUT it costs double the spell slots to do so. A necromancer with evocation as an opposition school can still prepare a Fireball spell; he is just going to have to use TWO 3rd-level spell slots instead of one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 16:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have never heard of this specific example being used before, but it just seems to me to be a high-level (epic?) form of scrying... and I thought divination can't be performed by practitioners of necromancy? Its their weak-spot.
Ergo, I would rule this is a work-around only necromancers would employ - it taps into other planes, making it more of a translocative (Conjuration) spell, then a divining one. It actually seems to combine two schools - Conjuration & Enchantment (seeing through the eyes of other selves) - so I would definitely say this is a work-around for epic necromancers.
As for who would use it? Probably Larloch, and other high-end necros. Guys like Khelben and Elminster could probably pull it off, but why bother? They have other means of divination.
In 3.5 rules, you can choose two opposition schools if your specialize in one. You cannot choose Divination as an opposition school no matter what your specialization is.
A Red Wizard (the ones that enter the prestige class...well, you HAVE to enter the prestige class to become one anyway) must choose a 3rd opposition school. Of course, this means they have even more power in their specialized school.
How Szass Tam BROKE that rule is beyond me. There is a feat in "Lost Empires of Faerun" that allows you to learn and cast spells from one opposition school; meaning a specialist wizard will only have 1 opposition school and a Red Wizard just two.
The best answer is simple. Completely being blocked from certain schools of magic never really made sense to me. It was done as a balance issue, but the payback for losing out on potentially infinite amount of those specific types of magic was extremely weak. You can't even use scrolls, wands, or staffs with such magic as they are no longer considered to be "on your spell list". Of course, such Wizards have an easy way around that ---> maximum ranks in Use Magic Device. Which I am sure Szass must have. But it's still a weak argument.
Hence why I think Pathfinder's ruling on opposition schools is perfect. You choose two schools but instead of being barred, you simply are stuck having to prepare a larger concentration of magic in order to cast those spells. You can still prepare and cast spells from your opposition schools BUT it costs double the spell slots to do so. A necromancer with evocation as an opposition school can still prepare a Fireball spell; he is just going to have to use TWO 3rd-level spell slots instead of one.
I agree, the PF version of specialization is much more elegant. We had a discussion some months back to try and figure out some other methods that might be equally as elegant and easy to employ. We didn't come up with much though |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 16:24:27
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| On the example given by The Hooded One, if indeed what Tam was doing was basically something like a helicopter pilot having multiple HUD displays up, then it was a poor choice of wording. That would be him checking multiple parameters. I find that explanation very plausible, but he was also attempting something that involves planar linkages, so when someone says dimensions in said context, I tend to think they're talking planar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 06:40:43
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| my head hurts...you can shutup now |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 13:19:30
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In my own hacked version of OGL (based mostly on PF), people have to take ranks in magic schools, so my system is more like Path magic (very similar to how it works in the Rolemaster system). So like a fighter (or anything else for that matter), you become 'stronger' when you specialize, but only in the school(s) you choose to focus on. You have to expend more power to cast spells from schools you haven't 'studied' (taken ranks in) much. So basically I just used the already-existing skill system, and turned schools into skills (avenues of study, actually).
I used a spellpoint system, but it didn't work as well as I wanted, so now I am experimenting with a Fatigue-based system, so spells work the way they used to, but you ALSO have to expend 'fatigue Points' (the old HP) to cast them. Once I have all the bugs worked out, then its a simple thing to apply this to specialization - the more ranks you have in a school, the less points you use (the less fatigued you become). Thus, in Szass Tam's case, he can raise the dead all day long without breaking a sweat, but when he casts a divination spell he has to rest afterwards, because it takes a lot out of him.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would imagine that one of the dimensions referred to would simply be a dimension of energy -- if not a source of energy, then a place where the flow of certain types of energies can be seen.
Perhaps the Weave itself is this other dimension... We've heard alot about it, and we know some folks and deities can see it... Perhaps that's what they are seeing, is the flow of energy between fixed points. Not like ley lines, something far greater in scope.
THIS has a lot of traction... The Weave as the dimension of 'Primal Energy'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Countless Dimensions?
