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X_Ice_X
Acolyte
Portugal
20 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 14:20:51
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Hello folks its been sometime since I found candlekeep since then I have found most of the info i need in here. But only now I registered so first of all.
Hello folks *waves*
Now to the point, I love the bladesingers but have not found much about them, I have read the class descriptions in RoF, or Complete Book of Elves, and am finishing reading the Fighters-Bladesinger book, but so far have not found particularly interesting info on traditions, groups, hierarchy, rituals, how styles developed etc...etc... I think such a rich class deserves better, and it is probably out there. Can some of you point me out to where i can find some of this info, or you if have the time and patience send me a PM or even answer here with some info and content about bladesingers? I would be very appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 22:18:47
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Unfortunately, like I told you in a PM, I've come to notice there is very little lore on bladesingers. I suppose the articles me and Dagnirion wrote on the matter have some correlation with the truth, since they appear to paint a very similar picture of bladesingers. :D
I'm curious about the Elves of Faerūn article, though: do you have any actual sources to point to, or is it just fan-fiction? (Well-written and Realmsian, but fan-fiction nonetheless.) Specifically, I'm curious as to where you've found the information on the different schools of bladesong? I think it's stated that the bladesong is always taught from master to apprentice and the idea of bladesinger schools is alien to elves. That's the bit I disagree with your article on. Lodges aren't so much training institutions but rather groups of full-fledged bladesingers who work together, in my view. But I do like the idea of various masters with various styles that emphasize different aspects of the art. My own PC, in fact, follows a tradition identifying with birds, a very quick and flightly dexterity-based style.
You say the first bladesinger was moon elven. Is this just IC speculation, or is there some source that says it? I'm very interesed in the birth of the bladesong, myself. I'm not sure if sun elves would be a better fit because of their incredible patience and dedication to their trade, but on the other hand: bladesingers embrace elven culture as a whole, so moon elves might keep themselves busy with all that training just fine. The travelling nature of many bladesingers fits moon elves better, anyhow.
I don't mean to be overly critical or dismiss the great work Dagnirion's done on the Elves of Faerūn. I just DM an NWN server and thus know the consequences of rookie players on online RP servers searching the web for info and arguing with eachother about some homebrewn piece of lore they found online and didn't recognize as such. That's why I'm personally always careful about seperating canon from homebrew, though I'm happy to use both. All in all, I think it's a great article and I will certainly use it for inspiration
On a side note, there's an elven demigod introduced in Dragon who was specifically the patron of bladesingers. I found him pretty boring and uninteresting, though.
To be more on-topic, copy-pasting the list of sources I've located, from my PM to Ice (in case others are interested, too):
The Complete Book of Elves discusses the style itself, and while the rules are 2e I find them very interesting.
Elves of Evermeet mentions bladesingers organized into lodges with totem animals identifying the lodge.
The Fall of Myth Drannor tells the story of Josidiah Starym.
I think Races of Faerūn has the 3e Prestige Class.
The Bladesinger's Lesson, a short story by Richard Baker, can be found in Realms of the Elves.
A Class Chronicles article introduces the Duskblades into the Realms as a bladesinger variant, which I referenced in my article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070228
For reference, here is my character's article on bladesingers:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12024
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Edited by - IronAngel on 05 Feb 2009 22:21:59 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 22:42:12
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-Multiple responses at once:
Styles of Bladesinging: Erik De Bie
Origin of Bladesinging: Races of Faerūn
Types of Teaching: Races of Faerūn and Bladesinger
DRAGON Patron of Bladesingers: Not specifically Forgotten Realms canon, so he/she/it is ignored.
-I think that addressed it all with brevity. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 23:28:18
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Bladesinger talks about Bladesinger schools? Interesting. Personally, I'm still very much opposed to the idea and it's conflicting with RoF too, but alas!
Thanks for the references! I suppose the styles are from Erik's posts here on Candlekeep or a similar online source? I'd like to read them myself, too. |
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X_Ice_X
Acolyte
Portugal
20 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 23:45:40
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I have studied all those sources you have pointed out IronAngel but the fall of MythDrannor and "The Bladesingers Lesson" just because I couldnt get my hand in those books to be able to read them.
I have though read Fighters- The Bladesinger and they mention some sort of school, though the book is a novel and as we know novels are always great at making up stuff that doesn't match with canon. But if we wish to look deeper into it and actually analize the book perspective it never states if the student master link is present of not since there is no particular reference on this aspect. it could well be that the basics of the bladesong such as swordplay, and elementary arcane study would be done in classes and then the rest of the path in a unique el'tael - tael bond. groups and guilds of bladesingers are also not unheard of but as you I prefer to keep to myself that even in schools the Master-student relation and tradition is kept (usually). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 23:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by X_Ice_X
I have studied all those sources you have pointed out IronAngel but the fall of MythDrannor and "The Bladesingers Lesson" just because I couldnt get my hand in those books to be able to read them.
You can download a free pdf of The Fall of Myth Drannor from the Wizards downloads page.
quote:
Originally posted by X_Ice_X
I have though read Fighters- The Bladesinger and they mention some sort of school, though the book is a novel and as we know novels are always great at making up stuff that doesn't match with canon.
Actually, with only a couple of older exceptions, all Realms novels are considered canon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 23:56:36
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quote:
Originally posted by X_Ice_X
I have studied all those sources you have pointed out IronAngel but the fall of MythDrannor and "The Bladesingers Lesson" just because I couldnt get my hand in those books to be able to read them.
Wooly beat me to the link. 
quote:
I have though read Fighters- The Bladesinger and they mention some sort of school, though the book is a novel and as we know novels are always great at making up stuff that doesn't match with canon.
Well, a lot of canon material which first popped up in novels has later been included in sourcebooks. Why would this instance be any different? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 02:03:15
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| -I think what he/she might have been meaning is that novels are "good at" not staying necessarily true to canon. I'll just use Paul Kemp as a quick example, since it's something that was mentioned recently. I love Paul's writing and all...The Netherese Enclave of Sakkors, as mentioned in...Sea of Fallen Stars(?) states that all that was left of Sakkors was some rubble on a steep incline- a much different picture than what Paul painted in the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Feb 2009 02:05:05 |
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X_Ice_X
Acolyte
Portugal
20 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 02:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I think what he/she might have been meaning is that novels are "good at" not staying necessarily true to canon. I'll just use Paul Kemp as a quick example, since it's something that was mentioned recently. I love Paul's writing and all...The Netherese Enclave of Sakkors, as mentioned in...Sea of Fallen Stars(?) states that all that was left of Sakkors was some rubble on a steep incline- a much different picture than what Paul painted in the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies.
Exactly, forgive me Im not an english native speaker Im actually Portuguese so I may have no passed the right idea on this one. But Dagnirion made my point. Anyway i would like to stay on topic, folks with relevant info on bladesingers ;) Raise your hand |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 16:17:49
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Oh, another misc. question: where does the term "El'tael" origin? I've seen it mentioned in several online sources, but I don't recall managing to track it down.
Also, still looking for Erik Scott De Bie's bladesinger info. Couldn't find it on the CK forums. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 06 Feb 2009 16:20:51 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 17:49:10
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Har har. That, I'm afraid, is the burden of being an author. People will want to see every source and determine if they can come to the same conclusions. 
On a serious note, I've no idea why those didn't come up when I used the search function. I suppose I must've specified a subforum, not intending to. Oh well, thanks! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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X_Ice_X
Acolyte
Portugal
20 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 20:41:18
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Ahmaquissar Bladesong:
This bladesong style uses very fast strikes that come in from the oddest conceivable angles manageable by the lanky practitioners of this style. The wielder must be a Bladesinger or have the Bladesong proficiency. This fighting style comes from the idea that the user can kill off his enemies before they have a chance to mount a battle strategy. And while his enemy's try to follow his rhythms, he is speeding them on to their own demise at his hands. It is almost forgotten today, even amongst high level and ancient Bladesingers.
This style is comprised of very fast strikes. This style grants the Bladesinger a bonus to his initiative with his or her chosen weapon. Like the Bladesong style, this style may be purchased twice to gain a to initiative bonus. This proficiency is cumulative with single weapon style.
Evanero Bladesong:
This bladesong style uses the powerful and beautiful strikes seen in the elven Blade Dance to cause vicious wounds. The wielder must be a Bladesinger or have the Bladesinging proficiency. This fighting style comes from a nearly extinct elven family that once patrolled the outskirts of Cormanthyy, before the Standing Stone was erected. It is infrequently seen today, even amongst Bladesingers. (One Baelnorn Bladesinger in Myth Drannor, one Stadius Evanero, is known to possess it; as well as his closest relative Wiquaestreal Evanero, his student and nephew. Masol picked it up from Wiquaestreal recently.)
This style is comprised of gentle, but swift and decisive strikes to the vulnerable areas of the elf's enemies. This style grants the Bladesinger more damage with his or her chosen weapon. Like the Bladesong style.
Lecvero'estrii Bladesong:
This bladesong style uses very slow and rhythm-laden strikes, like the elven Blade Dance in slow motion. The wielder must be a Bladesinger or have the Bladesong proficiency. This fighting style comes from the ideas that the user can slow down the tempo of the battle and make his enemy's follow his rhythms, during which he is now thinking three or more steps ahead of them (in this respect it is like a physical game of chess). It is almost forgotten today, even amongst high level and ancient Bladesingers. This style is comprised of slow and deceptive strikes that also serve to cover his person in a protective sphere of blades.
Staryn's Bladesong:
Started by Jediah Starym, this bladesong style was simple in one thing and served one purpose only, it was also only able to be used with one weapon. The Moonblade. Though the moonblade would only draw blood it deemed worthy, once unsheathed it would permeate the battlefield in what was called in the common tongue, Mortal Maker. It rid the area of metaphysicial abilities, including the weilders, making the unnatural, natural, mortal, making what might be a supernatural fight, completely natural, leaving the combatants with only their wits and prowess with their weapons to fight.
How about these styles have you heard about them? I have seen Evanero style in several places, and since Evanero e part of the history of Myth Drannor I think it makes sense, Starym probably Josidiah style the others I dont know. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 08:21:31
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I'm flattered that my realmslore on the subject is esteemed highly, but I feel obliged to point out it's mostly stuff I extrapolated for my own Realms writing, rather than something I got from a sourcebook.
So it's not strictly canonical--but feel free to utilize it as you see fit. 
Also, I want to point to a potentially useful non-official Realms article Tom Costa and I did regarding bladesingers and elven duskblades, which contains a writeup of one of the bladesingers mentioned in my notes: http://candlekeep.com/downloads/greater-treasure.zip
Yldar Nathalan was/still is(?) a noted sun elf bladesinger, and while the pdf is not specific as to his style, it is Natha kerymvian--his family style--as noted in my thread.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 10:46:28
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| there is a bladesinger god in Dragon 236, Tethrin Veralde |
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X_Ice_X
Acolyte
Portugal
20 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 14:00:52
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I must confess I have never heard about this before. And not able to find this magazine I wonder if more information could be given about this Demi-God Tethrin Veralde.
Erik Scott de Bie thanks alot for your articles every bit of info helps a great deal. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 15:18:53
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You can Google it. It's not canon Realms, though. He doesn't really introduce anything new or interesting to bladesinger lore, so I've just ignored him.
And thanks for the good stuff (and the link to Tom's write-up), Erik! In that vein, I'm going to invent a bird-themed style for my bladesinger. His style is biir-kerym, I suppose, because he only studied under a master for seven years and has to complete his training by himself since there are no other bladesingers to mentor him in the (online) game. I'm grasping for straws when it comes to inventing an "authentic" elven name for it, though.
I wanted something long and messy on purpose - or rather, long and messy to the human eye.  I figured "Veluthe Selu'Vel Gyrlaszthraen" The High Blade of the Hunting Bird Strikes Graceful and Swift. OK, so veluthe is beautiful and not graceful, and selu seems to refer to high in the sense of "grand" and not actually an object held high (which is the special feature of his style, emphasizing high cuts). And it completely lacks any syntax. But what do you think? Any improvements or suggestions you could give about the Elven language itself? If anyone's got ideas to throw around about special moves that could feature in such a style, or existing feats to add flavour, be my guest. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 08 Feb 2009 15:27:57 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 21:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I wanted something long and messy on purpose - or rather, long and messy to the human eye. I figured "Veluthe Selu'Vel Gyrlaszthraen" The High Blade of the Hunting Bird Strikes Graceful and Swift. OK, so veluthe is beautiful and not graceful, and selu seems to refer to high in the sense of "grand" and not actually an object held high (which is the special feature of his style, emphasizing high cuts). And it completely lacks any syntax. But what do you think? Any improvements or suggestions you could give about the Elven language itself? If anyone's got ideas to throw around about special moves that could feature in such a style, or existing feats to add flavour, be my guest.
I'm certainly no expert on Elven language, so I'm not about to correct the wordsmithing. Personally, I think it sounds fine (though the last word sounds sort of drow-esque, with all its s's and z's? Maybe).
I can, however, give a couple thoughts about moves that might work out. Someone in this fighting style might always stand tall and graceful, like a heron, and hold his/her weapon in a downward diagonal-hanging way (what we call a high guard), the better to strike from above when attacked.
The "emphasizes high cuts" angle could imply:
1) Lunges from on high.
2) A central use of the high-stop thrust. If you aren't otherwise a fencer, basically that's a counter attack where you, the defender, crane your body back and stab down from on high at an attack who is coming in to attack (tall people with reach have a considerable advantage with such a move, and we do it all the time).
3) Maybe even aerial assaults (using a jump check?).
Terrible analogy, but remember Achilles in the recent Troy movie? How he basically leaped over people and stabbed them? That reminds me at least of a lunging bird of prey.
I seem to recall a monk tactical feat in Complete Warrior that is like a raptor-inspired school of fighting? You might check that out for inspiration.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 23:28:17
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Interestingly, I was talking with my fencing coach just yesterday about high parries, since epee is my primary weapon. For an idea of what I mean, D'Artanion uses two in his opening fight in the Charlie Sheen/Keifer Sutherland 3 Musketeers: holding the guard at about head height with the blade angling down (sometimes straight down). It's sometimes used to protect the legs from attack and is left over from rapier fencing.
The problem with the high parry is that it robs you of many of your options. Almost by definition, you're going to be taking your opponent's blade closer to the tip of yours, which means you have much less strength to keep it away. Fencing is all about angles and leverage, and you want to parry as close to your hilt as possible, to maximize your strength. Also, using that sort of high parry removes many of your riposte options. We agreed that, while it looks good, it's not practical in most situations. Oh, and it's also kind of hard on the shoulder, and takes more time to execute than a traditional low parry.
The one exception is in-fighting, where the fencers are standing a foot apart. That's when you'll see some really ugly (by which I mean poor form, not thrown elboes - usually) fencing, and the blades will come up both to attack and to defend, because you're too close to do much else and still have the point connect. In fact, you'll sometimes see people bring their weapon arm completely around their head in an attempt to bring the point in line.
I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the discussion, but since I just spent a good portion of practice yesterday talking and working with high parries, I thought I'd share. And I agree that that jumping attack of Achilles' would be a good idea to incorporate into this style. In fact, I think Achilles is a good example to mimic for a bladesinger. They train so incredibly hard and long, they'd always be the most poised, deadliest people on the battlefield, able to bring off maneuvers others wouldn't even attempt. Just be a bit more humble OFF the battlefield. :) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Terrible analogy, but remember Achilles in the recent Troy movie?
No. Thank Lurue, I've successfully forgotten most details about that movie. This was deliberate.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:02:38
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I think Achilles was a big enough man to suffer from both flaws. After all, he drew off his forces in a sulk after his feelings were hurt.
And if we're willing to replace "pride" with "ego," we can say that his entire fate came from that, because it was his desire to fight in the greatest of wars and therefore become immortal that started it all.
But it's been years since I read the myth and it's not particularly on topic, so I'll stop here. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 03:54:02
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By a certain reading, it sort of goes back to male impotence anxiety. After all, his argument with Agamemnon was over Briseis (sp?), a slave-girl Ags took from him . . . in order to replace his own, Chriseis(sp?), who he had to release thanks to a convenient prophecy.
And Hoondatha, I nod to your thoughts on the high guard. Any style--whether it advocates high or low or any sort of moves, will have strengths and weaknesses. When designing your "high blade" style, X_Ice_X, keep Hoondatha's words in mind.
I also wanted to mention that . . .
quote:
In fact, you'll sometimes see people bring their weapon arm completely around their head in an attempt to bring the point in line.
I believe I had one of my characters (Twilight) do something much similar in one particular scene (craning her arm back around and holding the blade more or less along her arm). Her style of fencing is mostly focused on quickness, mobility, and a lot of this sort of in-fighting.
Tall people (such as myself) HATE that.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Info on Bladesingers
