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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  22:03:32  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sheogorath all the way, his ways and his realm are most interesting and he has my vote!

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."

~Alruane
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  22:15:16  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All pale in comparison to Sithis.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  22:20:11  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but Sithis is not Daedric of course.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."

~Alruane
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  22:31:55  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only shows that this thread is flawed!

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1722 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  23:31:06  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Shegorath because, well, he's Shegorath. His cult would be one of madness and eccentricity.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  02:35:06  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alruane

Yes, but Sithis is not Daedric of course.

Sithis is neither Aedra or Daedra, as I recall. In fact, he's said to have been a primordial entity that existed long before either the Aedra or Daedra.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  06:46:59  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Alruane

Yes, but Sithis is not Daedric of course.

Sithis is neither Aedra or Daedra, as I recall. In fact, he's said to have been a primordial entity that existed long before either the Aedra or Daedra.



Yes, this is true. He was always a being of existance. He was the darkness, just a void. There was no TRUE explanation of what Sithis was, just what they BELIEVED him to look like. Or what he truly was.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."

~Alruane
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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  06:48:37  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I voted Shegorath because, well, he's Shegorath. His cult would be one of madness and eccentricity.



My thoughts exactly, I enjoyed his personality and the way he ruled his realm.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."

~Alruane
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  11:45:31  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alruane

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I voted Shegorath because, well, he's Shegorath. His cult would be one of madness and eccentricity.



My thoughts exactly, I enjoyed his personality and the way he ruled his realm.


Agreed. Plus I think his quest was the most fun out of all the Daderic quests in Skyrim.
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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  11:52:38  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Alruane

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I voted Shegorath because, well, he's Shegorath. His cult would be one of madness and eccentricity.



My thoughts exactly, I enjoyed his personality and the way he ruled his realm.


Agreed. Plus I think his quest was the most fun out of all the Daderic quests in Skyrim.


Indeed! The whole expansion for Oblivion was remarkably done, and his realm was very beautiful. If not disturbing at times. Haha

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."

~Alruane
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  06:44:28  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
....dropping this here.

https://thefirmamentblog.wordpress.com/

had an amazing time playing in Tamriel. We also used I'mFromNasa's Skill Trees homebrew alongside it. I have some great stories from my Imperial City noble human fighter and going incognito in the south-east with a party to persuade rebels to go home to their families. I also found and left hidden an entire army of Ayleid constructs or something..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1722 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  20:38:38  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rezzed after 7 years, nice! So it may have been this poll from years ago that got me thinking and ended with incorporating the daedra into my homebrew. I use them as another race (similar to fiends/celestials). What makes them different is their alignments are static, they change either with time or through some special occurrence and, in Molag-Bal's case, he can alter it at will. One aspect always remains the same (Molag-Bal is always evil, for instance), but the other axis changes. This gives them a unique place in my cosmology without simply making them another 'fiendish' race (and some of them aren't actually evil, such as Meridia). The aedra are also included but are the same race and fall under the general race of daedra. By the way, although they can be worshipped similar to arch-devils and demon princes, they are not deities in my game.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1267 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  01:18:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meridia was among the patron daedra of the Ayleids, one of her most famous followers being Umaril the Unfeathered. She thinks that free will is a nuisance. Meridia is absolutely evil, players just think she's nice because she hates the undead. Chances are she hates them not because they're undead, but because they're associated with Molag Bal, who is theorized to be her ex. ESO does a wonderful job overturning player preconceptions - Sheogorath is every bit the monster he's supposed to be, Nocturnal pulls off the greatest con in history, and Meridia is a dogmatic zealot.

I think players just got to attached to crazy funhouse Uncle Sheo, to be honest. The cracks appear when you realize that he created a localized apocalypse simply to destroy a peaceful, friendly community just for fun.

The line between Aedra and Daedra is a blurred one - the Khajiti patron deity is Azura, the Reachmen pantheon is staffed by Daedra, Hermaeus Mora is part of the Nord pantheon, the Dunmeri pantheon is purely Daedric and so forth. You can absolutely be a god without being an Aedra, like Mannimarco. You also have things like Molag Bal and the King of Worms screwing with Arkay - Bal created the first vampire via raping an Arkayan priestess, while Mannimarco founded modern necromancy and lifted it from religious voodoo into an actual magical field of study, reinvented lichdom, and then became the god of necromancy, his divine body nullifying Arkay's laws against necromancy and undead.

The closest example would be if Velsharoon nullified Kelemvor's deific laws against the creation of undead, even in his own holy grounds, as part of a naturally-occurring cosmic phenomenon while all Kel can do is shake his fist and pout.

Edited by - LordofBones on 20 Nov 2020 01:25:17
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1267 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  03:53:12  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AZURA, whose sphere is dawn and dusk and twilight, the magic in-between realms, prophecy and fate, magic and mystery, vanity and egotism
Domains: Destiny, Divination, Fate, Magic, Moon, Night, Oracle, Protection, Pride, Radiance, Spell, Travel

BOETHIAH, whose sphere is plots and conspiracies, assassination and treason, deceit and the unlawful overthrow of authority
Domains: Beguilement, Chaos, Death, Evil, Luck, Planning, Strength, Trickery, War

CLAVICUS VILE, whose sphere is the granting of power through trades and pacts, promises and wishes
Domains: Beguilement, Commerce, Evil, Greed, Law, Pact, Planning, Trade, Trickery, Wealth

HERMAEUS MORA, whose sphere is forbidden knowledge and the scrying of the tides of Fate, of the past and future as read in the stars and heavens, and in whose dominion are the treasures of knowledge and memory
Domains: Destiny, Divination, Fate, Knowledge, Mentalism, Mind, Oracle, Rune, Time

HIRCINE, whose sphere is the hunt and the sport, the thrill of the chase and the greatest game
Domains: Animal, Beastmaster, Bestial, Celerity, Chaos, Competition, Fury, Hunt, Strength

JYGGALAG, whose sphere is we don't talk about him

MALACATH, whose sphere is the patronage of the spurned and ostracized, the keeper of the Sworn Oath, and the Bloody Curse, and conflict, battle, broken promises, and anguish
Domains: Chaos, Envy, Hatred, Orc, Protection, Retribution, Spite, Strength, Suffering, War, Wrath

MEHRUNES DAGON, whose sphere is destruction and change, revolution and natural disasters, energy and ambition
Domains: Chaos, Destruction, Earth, Envy, Evil, Fire, Fury, Planning, Renewal, Storm, Strength, Wrath

MEPHALA, whose sphere is obscured to mortals, whose only consistent theme seems to be interference in the affairs of mortals for her amusement
Domains: Death, Evil, Planning, Spider, Seduction, Temptation, Trickery

MERIDIA, whose sphere is the energies of living beings
Domains: Evil, Glory, Greed, Law, Life, Purification, Radiance, Sun

MOLAG BAL, whose sphere is whose sphere is the domination and enslavement of mortals; whose desire is to harvest the souls of mortals and to bring mortals' souls within his sway by spreading seeds of strife and discord in the mortal realms
DOMAINS: Corruption, Domination, Envy, Evil, Hatred, Law, Planning, Pride, Strength, Tyranny, Undeath

NAMIRA, whose sphere is the Ancient Darkness, of sundry dark and shadowy spirits; associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion
Domains: Corruption, Darkness, Decay, Evil, Ooze, Slime, Spider, Spirit

NOCTURNAL, whose sphere is the night and darkness
Domains: Chaos, Darkness, Luck, Night, Planning, Shadow, Trickery

PERYITE, whose sphere is the ordering of the lower rungs of Oblivion, pestilence and the natural order
Domains Balance, Blightbringer, Decay, Dragon, Law, Pestilence, Planning, Protection, Suffering

SANGUINE, whose sphere is hedonistic revelry, debauchery, wild orgies, and passionate indulgences of darker natures
Domains: Beguilement, Chaos, Charm, Joy, Lust, Passion, Pleasure, Seduction, Temptation, Trickery

SHEOGORATH, whose sphere is Madness, and whose motives are unknowable
Domains: Beguilement, Chaos, Charm, Evil, Illusion, Madness, Trickery

VAERMINA, whose sphere is the realm of dreams and nightmares, and from whose realm evil omens issue forth
Domains: Beguilement, Dream, Evil, Magic, Mind, Oracle, Pain, Suffering

Edited by - LordofBones on 21 Nov 2020 03:55:22
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  18:31:08  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Meridia was among the patron daedra of the Ayleids, one of her most famous followers being Umaril the Unfeathered. She thinks that free will is a nuisance. Meridia is absolutely evil, players just think she's nice because she hates the undead. Chances are she hates them not because they're undead, but because they're associated with Molag Bal, who is theorized to be her ex. ESO does a wonderful job overturning player preconceptions - Sheogorath is every bit the monster he's supposed to be, Nocturnal pulls off the greatest con in history, and Meridia is a dogmatic zealot.



Meridia is a bit more complex. Yes, in ESO itself, her darkside is shown, especially via her hatred of free will, and how it manifests (ie her purification). But Meridia helps to save Nirn more than once, and even helps the Vestige, when it (seemingly) gave her no benefit. Meridia' support of Ayleids, might in part because of the fact they worshiped her, as well as the fact Pelinal was committing a genocide in his war against them literally not just killing, but erasing fro existence whole populations (essentially, an anathema to what she represents). All along the way (wnon-combatants, children whole settlements), even being murderous towards all elves, and related peoples, like Khajiit. As well, as the fact Umaril might be a son of the conjoined Akatosh-Lorkhan from before the current Kalpa (ie it's stated Umaril's father is a "god from previous kalpa", and in the "The Song of Pelinal" Pelinal screams to Aka(tosh) that the two of them (Lorkhan/Pelial and Akatosh) "made" Umaril).

Meridia "ex" (and maybe not entirelly ex) is also not really implied to be not Molag Bal, but Lorkhan.

The "illicit spectra" she consorted with, is implied to be also Lorkhan (possibly as the Void Ghost).

In semi-canon lore, a Magna-Ge form/aspect of Lorkhan - the Scarab-Framer (ie a variation of title of Lorkhan from the 36 Lessons of Vivec, sermon 10, - Scarab, the Frame-Maker, as well even the Scarab-Framer's description implying he an incarnation of Lorkhan), is/was part of Merid-Nunda's court, and very close ally:
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/magne-ge-pantheon

The text also makes clear Merid-Nunda was one of the most benevolent of the Magna-Ge, if also implying Meridia as Merid-Nunda was different compared to her current self.

And about the "not entirelly ex part" with Lorkhan...is as it's meant to implied Meridia and Kynareth/Kyne, are to some level the same being (if might be a Jygglag-Sheogorath, Aka-Lorkhan situation), as stated by Michael Kirkbride, when he wrote the Knights of Nine:
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/michael-kirkbride-irc-qa-sessions
quote:
What no one has ever seen is the connection between Meridia and Kyne. Let that sink in. What do they-- when connected-- both govern?

Think about KotN. One made the Knight, one opposed the Knight. One rained forever because he was gone. One said, no I will wait until he comes back.


There are also other connections between the two - both being connected to life, both connected to Lorkhan, both being presented as winged.

(And Meridia and Kyne/Kynareth are not the only ones who present such connection between Aedroth and Daedric Prince of "non-Daedric" origin - there is also Malacath's connection to Arkay and maybe even Zenithar)

It's also implied the the Magna-Ge allied with Meridia, are the ones that "made" Pelinal (the "Star-made" knight), or at least his body, further showing Meridia somewhat schizophrenic attitude towards Lorkhan.

What I mean - is Meridia among the many "evil" Daedric Princes? Very probably, but I think she has in part at least good intentions...but as it's stated "hell is paved with good intentions", and she shows the horrors of zealotry.

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Nov 2020 00:19:04
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1267 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  00:18:42  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Khajiti mythology has a very different view of Meridia:

"Merid-Nunda is a cold spirit, born of light without love. She is intellect without wisdom, knowledge without purpose. She is the consort of demons, and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj. When Merid-Nunda dared assault the Lattice with intent (being the first to do so, alongside Dagon and Molagh), Azurah struck her down before the Varliance Gate and dragged her away from it. She then cast Merid-Nunda into the Void and bound her there with mirrors. The nomads say she has since escaped."

There's also a part of Khajiti mythology where Bal's nameless wife freed Dagon from him.

ESO's depiction of Meridia lends a lot of credence to Khajiti belief. Even the Bretons support this idea, considering that she's called, among other things, 'Lady of Greed'. There's the hilarity behind the the attack on Coldharbour; the Hollow City is an unwanted intrusion into Coldharbour, and given that the realms are parts of their prince, Meridia is literally raping the King of Rape.

There's also the supposed theory that Bal raped Lamae to tick off Meridia, not Arkay. Aversion to light isn't really a characteristic of undead except for vampires, after all.

Basically, Bal and Meridia act like stereotypical bitter exes.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  01:17:11  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Khajiti mythology has a very different view of Meridia:

"Merid-Nunda is a cold spirit, born of light without love. She is intellect without wisdom, knowledge without purpose. She is the consort of demons, and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj. When Merid-Nunda dared assault the Lattice with intent (being the first to do so, alongside Dagon and Molagh), Azurah struck her down before the Varliance Gate and dragged her away from it. She then cast Merid-Nunda into the Void and bound her there with mirrors. The nomads say she has since escaped."

There's also a part of Khajiti mythology where Bal's nameless wife freed Dagon from him.

ESO's depiction of Meridia lends a lot of credence to Khajiti belief. Even the Bretons support this idea, considering that she's called, among other things, 'Lady of Greed'. There's the hilarity behind the the attack on Coldharbour; the Hollow City is an unwanted intrusion into Coldharbour, and given that the realms are parts of their prince, Meridia is literally raping the King of Rape.

There's also the supposed theory that Bal raped Lamae to tick off Meridia, not Arkay. Aversion to light isn't really a characteristic of undead except for vampires, after all.

Basically, Bal and Meridia act like stereotypical bitter exes.



Well, mythology is in The Elder Scrolls intentionally biased. Khajiit mythology for example it also frames Mephala as far more benevolent:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wandering_Spirits

Meridia being behind Lorkhan death, and leading, also contradicts all other accounts of his death. It's also mentioned "some" Khajiit songs mention it, so not even probably majority.
One also would have to ignore all the positive and what seems empathetic things she done in ESO itself, to say the Khajiit view of Meridia is the more/most correct view of her.
(Not saying it doesn't have truth in it, but it doesn't mean it's 100% right)

With Molag Bal, I do think it's possible he was in love with Meridia, who I think rejected him, hence it warped him from the Ruddy-Man to who he is today. (I'm not even the only one who noticed this, even if my view is a bit different):
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/6s6sr8/theory_molag_bal_is_in_love_with_meridia/

I mean, think about it - Molag Bal's whole thing, is to conquer, corrupt and subjugate Nirn and mortals...which would fit is he wants to do it, to spite Lorkhan out jealousy and hatred, and to show his superiority.
I mean he even is the one Daedric Prince who is conformed to have discovered how to achieve CHIM (which he teached Vivec, or maybe rather Vivec seduced him to discover it), which learned to possibly suprass Lorkhan, even if Molag Bal ultimatelly couldn't achieve it.

This would also explain why they hate each other with Boethiah - Boethiah being a major Lorkhan fangirl/fanboy, would see such desire to spite on Lorkhan legacy and usurp it, as disdainful and anathema.

I also viewed Meridia's interractions rowards Molag Bal as not one of an ex, but that's my interpretation (though I believe Molag Bal loved her, at least once, but more on it latter). And the fact both Molag Bal's wife and Meridia attacked the Lunar Lattice, may suggest they could be a couple - though seeing Meridia defied him, and freed Mehrunes Dagon, she didn't have positive feelings towards Bal, at least at that point already.

If anything, I think Meridia might be as probably (in part?) a spiteful ex towards Lorkhan, seeing even Khajiit mythology you mentioned, especially seeing Michael Kirkbride (who basically created half of the lore about Meridia before ESO, including her being once a Magna-Ge) himself strongly implies he wrote to had been a romantic relation between two, maybe viewing he betrayed her, possibly during creation or latter.

With Meridia violating Molag Bal with Hollow City, one could see it as such...if not for the fact it was a settlement (from Nirn) devoted to Meridia, but Molag Bal absorbed into Coldhabour, but Meridia continued to shield it with her power. And request to help the denizens.

So it's not such a clear cut situation, as with Meridia "literally" violating Bal.

It is notable it is implied Coldhabor might had been once her Realm (as state by Mankar Camoran - And yes, it might seem Mankar is crazy and wrong on many things, but it was implied he was right on a lot of things.), as paradoxical as it seems - again a Daedric Prince might sever oneself from their realm as seen with Jygglag, and also be bound with one.

And it is implied Molag Bal only came to rule Coldharbor after he stopped being the Ruddy Man.

There is also possible Lyg was Coldhabour when Meridia ruled it (or part of Lyg):
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ikdvw/lyg_coldharbor_back_when_meridia_controlled_it/

(Also with a discussion about a Daedric Prince losing a Realm, and if and how could be possible)

(of course it's also possible Molag Bal and Meridia somehow co-ruled Coldhabour, if she was his wife in his realm? or maybe he took Meridia as his wife, when he took over Coldhabour? Especially that Khajiit mythology suggests the Colored Rooms were created as a prison for Meridia by Azura...)

Another possibility, is that Molag Bal, and Meridia were once one being, especially that such things happened in TES (Shezarrines, Sheogorath and Jygglag, Aka and Lorkhan, possibly Padomay and Anu - which Khajiit mythology also mentions as married and once lovers, possibly Zenithar and Stendarr, possibly many or all regional variants of Aedra to some degree, and basically confirmed with many versions of Aka - and each dragon being a fragmentation of him).

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Nov 2020 03:12:16
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1267 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  04:24:55  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's the reddit post I was thinking of. That 'Bal and Meridia were one and the same' thing is interesting too, since there's a theory that Mannimarco didn't just ascend via the mantella, he did so by mantling Arkay. it's also implied that Jyggalag and Sheogorath are facets of the same Prince.

Bal is...an interesting one. Keep in mind that he respects the Vestige for standing against him; the Lord of Rape and Domination actually likes you more if you have a backbone, even if it's against him.

And, to be fair to the Khajit, Mephala's considered to be one of the Three Good Daedra by the Dunmer. Admittedly, it's not because she's actually capital-G Good, but because she's one of the cornerstones of their civilization by introducing secret murder to keep order.

The question is also whether Vivec actually did achieve CHIM. Vivec is the ultimate liar, one who justifies himself vial allegory and sermons. The difference between him and Almalexia is that Ammy is genuinely delusional. When the King of Worms, of all beings, thinks you're a bunch of posers, there are problems somewhere. The Vivec duality becomes spectacularly interesting when you put it into context with Molag Bal's title among the Dunmer; the implication being that Bal raped Vivec as part of a deal, and the Abused becomes the Abuser when he rapes Azura during his trial.

Because, seriously, everything screwy about the Dunmer is purely on Vivec and Almalexia (and Sotha). Azura punished the Dunmer with a tan and free fire resistance, but Vivec instituted a religious police, kept a meteorite hovering over his city and then didn't notice Barbas all but delivering Morrowind to Vile until the Vestige got involved.

Edited by - LordofBones on 22 Nov 2020 04:30:19
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  05:24:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Meridia-Daedric Prince of Life Energies is my vote. :)

Did you vote? If so, who for?

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  19:12:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That's the reddit post I was thinking of. That 'Bal and Meridia were one and the same' thing is interesting too, since there's a theory that Mannimarco didn't just ascend via the mantella, he did so by mantling Arkay. it's also implied that Jyggalag and Sheogorath are facets of the same Prince.

Bal is...an interesting one. Keep in mind that he respects the Vestige for standing against him; the Lord of Rape and Domination actually likes you more if you have a backbone, even if it's against him.

And, to be fair to the Khajit, Mephala's considered to be one of the Three Good Daedra by the Dunmer. Admittedly, it's not because she's actually capital-G Good, but because she's one of the cornerstones of their civilization by introducing secret murder to keep order.

The question is also whether Vivec actually did achieve CHIM. Vivec is the ultimate liar, one who justifies himself vial allegory and sermons. The difference between him and Almalexia is that Ammy is genuinely delusional. When the King of Worms, of all beings, thinks you're a bunch of posers, there are problems somewhere. The Vivec duality becomes spectacularly interesting when you put it into context with Molag Bal's title among the Dunmer; the implication being that Bal raped Vivec as part of a deal, and the Abused becomes the Abuser when he rapes Azura during his trial.

Because, seriously, everything screwy about the Dunmer is purely on Vivec and Almalexia (and Sotha). Azura punished the Dunmer with a tan and free fire resistance, but Vivec instituted a religious police, kept a meteorite hovering over his city and then didn't notice Barbas all but delivering Morrowind to Vile until the Vestige got involved.



With the connection between Jyggalag and Sheogorath I agree - FudgeMuppet suggested Jyggalag even before his transformation into Sheogorath, was the Prince of Madness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eptk--c8ZHs

It is possible that Mannimarco mantled or somehow "partly" mantled Arkay - hence his divine incarnation is now a "moon" (The Revenant, the Necromancer's Moon) orbiting Arkay.

I mean, he wanted to pull that trick on Molag Bal.

Yup Molag Bal respecting people having a backbone, even defying him, has sense - again, he he is the Prince of Domination.

With Mephala, or rather Mefala she has a much more positive role in Khajiit lore - it is possible those aspects are part of her sphere (seeing they are a more positive spin on parts of her normal persumed sphere), especially seeing Mephala shere is indeed obscured.
But it also works with Meridia, with Khajiit Merid-Nunda not being a complete presentation of Meridia as a whole. With evn Khajiit mythology not being sure of she was involved in Lorkhan murder - ie "and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj".

About connections between Et'Ada, Khajiit mythology also is another one, that shows Malacath and Arkay as the same, even more directly so than Nord mythology - from the Adversial Spirits:
"Orkha. A demon that followed Boethra back through the Many Paths. It spoke in curses of affliction and knew no other words. Lorkhaj, Khenarthi, and Boethra battled the demon in the ancient songs, but Orkha could only be banished and would not die. Khajiit understand that Orkha and others of his ilk serve as tests along the Path, and nothing more."

And it's not the only connection between Arkay and Malacath/Trinimac..., but that's another discussion.

With Vivec, the abused, becoming the abuser is a core part of his story (again, he was raped since early childhood by his father, which lead to Vivec, even before meet Nerevar, a drug dealing murderer.)

I also don't deny he is responsible for the destruction that afflicted Vvardenfell and rest of Morrowind - he outright admitted he keeps the Dunmer as hostages with it - from 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 33:
quote:
When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'


So yeah, blaming Azura for it is silly at best.

With Vivec achieving CHIM, outside of Michael Kirkbride's semi-canon works, there is a lot of implication he achieved it - seeing he knows and wrote down what it is, and knew how it connected to Lorkhan's motivations, as well as having a very deep understanding of the settings metaphysics, most et'Ada don't have, as well as seeing the intentional parallels between him and Tiber Septim (the other person said to have achieved CHIM).

It's also possible Molag Bal himself mantled, or partly mantled a god, possibly Meridia - hence he seemingly predicted Mannimarco mantling him - some sources imply as the Ruddy-Man, he was a king not god among the Dreugh, and indeed even Molag Bal's head's design in ESO, looks like that of the land Dreugh, but not crustecean/athropod:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/File:Detail_of_Land_Dreugh_Concept_Art.png
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/pl/wiki/Plik:Molag_Bal_(Online).jpg

This could explain them being married in Khajiit lore, and seemingly sharing once a plane of Oblivion there, as well as why Meridia is suggested to had been the original Prince of Coldhabour. (As I mentioned, similarly in Khajiit mythology, Anu and Padomay are also stated to had been married and having children, which also isn't literally true in most mythologies...
And if Molag Bal's mantled Meridia to be with her (kinda like Hermaphroditus and Salmacis) and it would fit his nature as the King of Rape, and him knowing how to achieve CHIM - after all CHIM is love, including selfish love, as well "reaching heaven by violence".
It also would fit the theory Meridia used Mehrunes' Razor/Mehrunes as the Razor to sever herself from Molag Bal.

Of course, this is just another theory

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Nov 2020 21:31:31
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LordofBones
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1267 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  02:19:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So far, I've pretty much set the Princes as such:

Azura - TN, good tendencies
Boethiah - CE
Clavicus Vile - NE
Hermaeus Mora - TN, evil tendencies
Hircine - CN
Malacath - CN, LG as Trinimac
Mehrunes Dagon - CE
Mephala - NE
Meridia - LE
Molag Bal - LE
Namira - NE
Nocturnal - CN
Peryite - LN, evil tendencies
Sanguine - CN
Sheogorath - CE, CN tendencies
Vaermina - NE
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  13:30:55  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

So far, I've pretty much set the Princes as such:

Azura - TN, good tendencies
Boethiah - CE
Clavicus Vile - NE
Hermaeus Mora - TN, evil tendencies
Hircine - CN
Malacath - CN, LG as Trinimac
Mehrunes Dagon - CE
Mephala - NE
Meridia - LE
Molag Bal - LE
Namira - NE
Nocturnal - CN
Peryite - LN, evil tendencies
Sanguine - CN
Sheogorath - CE, CN tendencies
Vaermina - NE



Well, I'm a probbly getting boring, as I would agree with most, but I disagree about Meridia, who I think would be on LE/LN border, maybe even Lawful Neutral (with or without evil tendencies).

As I think by the same logic other Daedric Princes should have a more visibly evil alignment - for example Nocturnal - whose actions caused a lot of death and destruction in ESO, and it's hard to tell if she wouldn't break reality in her attempt to become an infinite, supreme being controlling reality. Or how much lives would be erased outright in her new reality, not to mention the ones sacrificed to achieve that goal, seeing she drained the life force of Nirn. Some of the dialogue, and lore even strongly implies Nocturnal would just absorb everything into herself, or subjugate everything to her will.
Seeing how she also invaded all of the planes of the Daedric Princes at once, as you mentioned, she was essentially violating all Daedric Princes at once. With it being far more brutal than what Meridia did with Coldhabour, and without any of the moral explanation,and arguments against it being a "rape".

As well as being shown as one of the more disdainful Daedric Princes towards mortals (as seen in her dialogue during her battle), and very vindictive, especially towards her own worshipers and servants, as shown with her curse on all who wore the Grey Cowl or with Nightingales who fail her, and punished on the whole Thieves guild for Mercer Frey's actions in Skyrim, without informing them (making one think how reality under her rule, would look, for mortals who even survived into it).
Further seeing how that seeing how her cultist Romien Garvette, describes Nocturnal's attitude towards her worshipers during the invasion of the Clockwork City in "Shadows and Whispers" - her worshipers being completely subjugated to her will, basically seeing themselves as an extension of Nocturnal, and not even able to feel joy anymore - which gives a real possibility this would be the existence for all, after Nocturnal would take over reality then, if she wouldn't just absorb everything into herself.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shadows_and_Whispers
This also overlaps with worshipers transformed by Nocturnal into Gloam Knights are implied to become extensions of her (being mentioned being "Shadows of Nocturnal", something what Romien describes his miserable state of being), and even of that isn't the case, they are stripped by Nocturnal from the ability to feel sympathy/empathy.
In general, it seems very probable Nocturnal is one of the "worse masters than him" mentioned by Molag Bal, and the Planemeld supposedly protecting against something worse, being at least among things protecting against her latter attempted take over of reality.

Or Sheogorath could be in the same view seen as purely Chaotic Evil (At least before his "replacement") - as while he has still some positive aspects in ESO, so has Meridia. And these are just two examples among Daedric Princes, and I could go through more.

I mean, as I mentioned before, Meridia in turn in ESO alone helped to save Nirn twice (and even second time all of creation from Nocturnal, who specifically knew she had to neutralize her to achieve her plans), defended her worshipers from Molag Bal, and restored the Vestige's soul even when it didn't give her any gain.

Still, this is just my opinion though...

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Nov 2020 17:29:50
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1267 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  03:57:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, regarding Mercer Frey, it's not so much her actively punishing them so much as her withdrawing her support from them. Frey could actually be said to have got off scot-free, being the only competent thief of the lot. (The Thieves' Guild has famously been derided as the worst written guild in Skyrim, something of an achievement with the SUDDENLY WEREWOLVES and Psijic Puppet guilds around).

But yeah, Nocturnal is probably NE.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  04:21:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

To be fair, regarding Mercer Frey, it's not so much her actively punishing them so much as her withdrawing her support from them. Frey could actually be said to have got off scot-free, being the only competent thief of the lot. (The Thieves' Guild has famously been derided as the worst written guild in Skyrim, something of an achievement with the SUDDENLY WEREWOLVES and Psijic Puppet guilds around).

But yeah, Nocturnal is probably NE.





Yeah, I think it would NE Nocturnal better. It's also curious, as Nocturnal comes as pretty egoistical, in a much more destructive way than her "sister" Azura - which makes me think if they maybe secretly share this sphere...

On Toril, I think Nocturnal would get into conflict with Shar, due to similarities between them (well at least the WoTC/TSR Shar, as Ed has characterizing Shar as more on the Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Evil border - he names her discord incarnate, who cycles of night, are not destruction of worlds, but causing civilizations destroy themselves in despair and decadence (hence Sharess was her aspect in 1e and early 2e lore) she inspires. This has some basis in canon though, as Elminster stated, I think in the "Herald" Shar's world destruction is a sham, and a way for her worshipers to destroy themselves).

This also makes me wonder if Azura and Nocturnal, weren't, at least latter on, somewhat influenced by Selune and Shar...

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  13:11:59  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Molag Bal-Daedric Prince of Enslavement and Domination of Mortals and Lovator would make a cute (horrifying couple).
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