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Eilserus
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  00:37:03  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi all,

Anyone know how if Weredragons can lay eggs and have hatchlings if this is all done in dragon form? Seems to me they might be able to go either way, dragon form or human. Just curious if there's lore I'm missing that states such. Thanks!

Edited by - Eilserus on 26 Jun 2018 00:38:01

LordofBones
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  02:56:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EDIT: Weredragons are song dragons in 3.5e, so the same as every other dragon, I guess.

Edited by - LordofBones on 26 Jun 2018 02:57:41
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  03:08:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Hi all,

Anyone know how if Weredragons can lay eggs and have hatchlings if this is all done in dragon form? Seems to me they might be able to go either way, dragon form or human. Just curious if there's lore I'm missing that states such. Thanks!



I couldn't find anything that flat-out stated anything about the birth of song dragons, other than the fact that they're always female.

But I did find one thing, on the Song Dragon entry for the FR Wiki: "One notable song dragon, Ammaratha Cyndusk, adopted the pseudonym Maerjanthra Shalace. She was so skilled at portraying a human that she fooled Elminster. He eventually had a child with her, and only found out that Ammaratha was a dragon well after the daughter was fully grown."

She may have hidden her nature from Elminster, but I think he'd notice if his lady laid an egg... This strongly indicates, at least to me, that song dragons are born human.

In fact, it makes me wonder if song dragons are true dragons at all. If they're born human, and if we know of at least one daughter of a song dragon that is pure human, then this implies to me that song dragons are human women who somehow acquire the ability to assume draconic form.

I would theorize further that all song dragons are descended from one dragon-human hybrid, and somewhere along the way learned some ritual or method of assuming dragon form and becoming song dragons. Why this is limited to women is another question...

(And that song dragon entry is the first time I've felt obliged to edit a wiki. There was erroneous info there, based on a misreading of Realmslore.)

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jun 2018 03:17:34
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  03:16:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

EDIT: Weredragons are song dragons in 3.5e, so the same as every other dragon, I guess.



I'd not call that definitive. 3.X also said that lythari were lycanthropes, despite having nothing in common with lycanthropes save for an animal shape, and despite prior lore saying lythari were not lycanthropes.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  05:43:35  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

EDIT: Weredragons are song dragons in 3.5e, so the same as every other dragon, I guess.



I'd not call that definitive. 3.X also said that lythari were lycanthropes, despite having nothing in common with lycanthropes save for an animal shape, and despite prior lore saying lythari were not lycanthropes.



Then I'd assume that a weredragon gives birth depending on the form she's in when labour begins. Half-dragons come from dragon mothers as well as fathers; I'd assume it depends on the individual dragon. For all we know, a blue dragon in a committed, loving relationship with Joe the Evil Overlord prefers staying in humanoid form, while a gold after a one-night stand gives birth in dragon form.

The more important question is, do half-dragons give birth to live young or lay eggs?
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  20:51:04  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
also remember the artifact that turned anyone who rode it long enough into a weredragon - specific wonderful throne in Volo's guide to all things magical. So we have precedent for magic items that create weredragons, and a possible method of having male weredragons.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  21:06:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

also remember the artifact that turned anyone who rode it long enough into a weredragon - specific wonderful throne in Volo's guide to all things magical. So we have precedent for magic items that create weredragons, and a possible method of having male weredragons.



The exact line, from page 79 of that tome: "The chair then, in sequence, granted: lizard man shape, pseudodragon shape, and finally weredragon status (that is, the controlled ability to switch between a specific dragon form and human shape)."

Given that it says a "specific dragon form" and does not refer to the single draconic form that's unique to song dragons, I'd assume that this meant the recipient could, like a lycanthrope, assume a beast form, and not that it turned someone into a song dragon.

So they gain a dragon shape, but they do not become song dragons.

At least, that's my interpretation, based on the repeated descriptions of song dragons as being all female. It could certainly be argued either way, though... Someone may want to ask Ed for confirmation.


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jun 2018 21:07:01
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  21:11:54  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I read "specific dragon form" to mean a dragon form, specifically a song dragon. I agree that the semantics could be interpreted either way.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  23:16:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting idea that they would be carried as human children. It might even be a means of protecting them in their youth by dropping them off in human communities as children (kind of like classic "fey" and "changelings", but without them stealing a human child).... or maybe the song dragons live amongst humans in human form while they raise their child. It would be interesting if this allowed song dragons to quickly reach adult age by living as humans until adulthood.

It may be that song dragons are similar to swanmays, selkies, lythari, and possibly other beings that take on animal shape

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  02:16:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


It may be that song dragons are similar to swanmays, selkies, lythari, and possibly other beings that take on animal shape



That's what I'm thinking, especially with Narnra being the vanilla human daughter of a weredragon. Either being a song dragon is not a dominant trait, or there's more to it than just being born to a song dragon.

Swanmays, if I recall correctly, are reliant on a token of some sort, for their shapechanging. And lythari are a race, but there's a ritual to turn a non-lythari into a lythari. So it's not unprecedented, even in Realmslore, for a regular person to become some sort of shapeshifter.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  02:21:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just found a bit from The Hooded One, parked upon my hard drive. Emphasis mine.


quote:
Hi again, all.
Lord Karsus, I have this niggling apprehension that your query is going to run into NDA trouble (though I've sent it off to Ed in hopes that it doesn't), because there's an unpublished Ed short story about that, and if I remember rightly, there's some sort of ongoing link between song dragons and Waterdeep's wards (or the older underlying mythals). (Wards aiding the song dragons in healing when needed? Don't quote me on that one, because I can't really recall . . .)
As for Raumarth being a male, weredragons can be both male and female. 3e highlighted just the particular sort of weredragons known as Song Dragons, that take the form of female humans and female dragons, but the male weredragons who sire them still exist. They're just VERY rare now, thanks to being hunted by the Zhents AND the Cult of the Dragon for dragon-steed-breeding purposes (another largely untold tale of the Realms, though we Knights have seen quite a bit of it in play). Probably rare enough (like maedar, the male medusae) that a staff designer figured they didn't rate a writeup. Only really powerful unique creatures (the terrasque, demon princes, archdevils, etc.) usually get their own writeup, these days . . .
love,
THO



How do I read this? Song dragons are weredragons, but not all weredragons are song dragons. The easiest interpretation is that female weredragons are called song dragons, while male weredragons are just called weredragons.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  04:06:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fabulous.
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Eilserus
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  23:41:41  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if it's been posted here, but check this out from TheEdVerse: https://twitter.com/garethgarfoot/status/1007426825130270721

Short stats for Hesperdan Human (Weredragon) m W26 LE

Hesperdan was a black dragon. We also have mention of Tharaela, Blood of Thauglor and she may be one too. THO's post above confirms male weredragons in the Realms and maybe Hesperdan too, though I'm not sure if he used magic like Vangey to take dragon form and gain weredragon status.

I assume a human and weredragon coupling would be a humanoid child. And since it hasn't been stated otherwise, a pair of weredragons in dragon form may well be able to have a clutch of eggs that are all weredragons too.

I was curious about the clutch of eggs part, since I had a picture in my mind of a female weredragon in human form leading her hatchlings (in human form they're children) through Suzail or another city to some known building or destination. Since nothing seems to say otherwise, I think I'll just say it is so. :)
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Demzer
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Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  09:40:40  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Not sure if it's been posted here, but check this out from TheEdVerse: https://twitter.com/garethgarfoot/status/1007426825130270721

Short stats for Hesperdan Human (Weredragon) m W26 LE

Hesperdan was a black dragon. We also have mention of Tharaela, Blood of Thauglor and she may be one too. THO's post above confirms male weredragons in the Realms and maybe Hesperdan too, though I'm not sure if he used magic like Vangey to take dragon form and gain weredragon status.



Wow.
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Barastir
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Posted - 09 Jul 2018 :  19:16:58  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just found a bit from The Hooded One, parked upon my hard drive. Emphasis mine.


quote:
Hi again, all.
Lord Karsus, (...)
As for Raumarth being a male, weredragons can be both male and female. [b]3e highlighted just the particular sort of weredragons known as Song Dragons, that take the form of female humans and female dragons, but the male weredragons who sire them still exist.(...)
love,
THO



(...) not all weredragons are song dragons. (...)



The 1e FR sourcebook Hall of Heroes mentions a lot of werecreatures, weredragons among them, which are not similar to song dragons.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jul 2018 :  19:40:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just found a bit from The Hooded One, parked upon my hard drive. Emphasis mine.


quote:
Hi again, all.
Lord Karsus, (...)
As for Raumarth being a male, weredragons can be both male and female. [b]3e highlighted just the particular sort of weredragons known as Song Dragons, that take the form of female humans and female dragons, but the male weredragons who sire them still exist.(...)
love,
THO



(...) not all weredragons are song dragons. (...)



The 1e FR sourcebook Hall of Heroes mentions a lot of werecreatures, weredragons among them, which are not similar to song dragons.



That's the only reference I know of that makes weredragons something other than what Ed himself introduced in Dragon 134. It's of particular interest that the FR7 weredragons don't have the ability to turn into dragons -- they just have the hybrid form that song dragons don't have. Everything else that discusses song dragons has the human form and the dragon form.

Given that nothing else backs up that one thing in Hall of Heroes, I'm thinking it was a mistake.

You could say, though, that this is an entirely separate race with an unfortunately identical name -- much like the 3E dragonborn are something entirely different from the 4E dragonborn.

It could have also been something else entirely -- maybe these oddball weredragons weren't lycanthropes at all; their abilities were gained by magic. I kinda like the idea of some sort of militant order that has that ability -- maybe particularly favored human servants of Tiamat can earn that hybrid form?

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Jul 2018 :  21:01:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's interesting Barastir/ and Wooly. With this whole thread I had never bothered to look up what's written in the Hall of Heroes, and I'm posting it below just for reference.

Weredragons: These are people who are able to transform themselves into a hybrid form that combines a humanoid shape with distinctly dragonlike features such as scales, fangs, claws, wings, and a long tail. All have
wings, even those species emulating the non-winged gold dragons. Each of these creatures have the same alignment as the dragon it resembles. They have 8 hit dice. Their bites and clawed hands each do 1d6 points of damage. They can also use the dragon#146;s breath weapon once each day.


and this from said same section
The magical energies unleashed during the divine crisis had a peculiar side effect. As the crisis abated, reports came in of new lycanthropic species. Some were accidentally created when one of these freak maelstroms of pure magic enveloped a human and an animal. The two merged together into a single being with traits of both. A second group included those who remained physically independent but gained the ability to transform into another#146;s form. A third group appears to have been deliberately created. A fourth group includes those that appeared as a result of long-standing curses; apparently these lycanthropes had always existed, but have only just recently come to light. All the new lycanthropes either fill niches left unoccupied or seem to be intended to specifically oppose known lycanthropic species.

So, these aren't dragonborn.... they get wings. They also aren't dragonkin, because they do get a breath weapon. I'd almost recommend them being a corruption of a weredragon's egg with maybe a lyncanthrope (maybe a wereserpent or a werecrocodile) OR a dragonkin's eggs happening during the ToT. Or maybe there was some "blip" between Abeir and Toril during the ToT and a dragonborn's eggs and weredragon's eggs got "mixed". Then they "bred" as all lycanthropes do.... they bit someone and passed on the curse. This would account for the human form (the weredragon is human and maybe so is the lyncanthrope that "mixed" with it). Or maybe they can't pass on their lycanthropy in this method, and they can only infect other dragon eggs. In fact, this may be the best method to do it, that they can infect ANY other dragon's egg, making it create new weredragon's resembling the dragon type which the egg belonged to. Thus, maybe it STARTED with a corrupted song dragon egg, but they corrupted OTHER eggs. Since we haven't heard much of them, I'd definitely say making them hard to breed might be good. It would also make them something that dragons themselves would like to see dead. Furthermore, after the spellplague, these individuals would probably have little trouble hiding amongst dragonborn societies (they would stand out having wings and a tail mind you)... given their hatred of true dragons, this "race" of lyncanthrope being able to corrupt true dragon eggs might be enticing to some clans.





Then there's the 2nd edition weredragon (from 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 3), which is referenced as only female, but which THO hinted there are males for breeding (all listed above, but including the link for people to read it)
http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/w/weredrag.html

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jul 2018 21:13:40
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jul 2018 :  21:28:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given all the info here, I'd spin it thusly:

Natural weredragons -- This is the naturally-occurring group of dragons that can take human form. The females of the species are far more well-known than the males, and are referred to as song dragons.

"Lycanthropic" weredragons -- these are humans who, with the aid of a powerful draconic patron or a draconic deity, undergo a ritual that allows them to assume a hybrid dragon/humanoid form. This ritual is shared with only the most favored or blessed of humans, those with deep ties to their draconic patron, and requires either a divine blessing or fresh blood from the living patron. (This keeps the numbers small, explains the various dracoforms they can take, and also limits the "kill it and take its power" angle)

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jul 2018 :  04:20:27  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with having natural weredragons be dragons that can take human form is that A LOT of dragons have that ability. There are fewer dragon species that don't have that ability than do.

So for me, weredragons are the result of a female dragon, mating with a human or demi-human then there being some special magic or ritual to give the hybrid offspring the ability to transform between the parent shapes.

Either that or its a state that like a magical curse, so the weredragon cannot control the change.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Jul 2018 :  04:52:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most dragons that can take human form can take pretty much any shape. Song dragons are limited to just human form. It's also their preferred form.

Also, it's been a thing in prior lore that a polymorphed dragon still needs to eat like a dragon -- that's not something that's mentioned at all, with weredragons.

I would speculate that the original weredragons were humans who became dragons, instead of being true dragons that gained human form.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  05:18:45  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Song dragons are similar to Greyhawk / Steel dragons in that way.
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