Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Lich or Vampire or Magic jar body leaping
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  04:12:05  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
Which is the best way to live on after old age death?

Become a Lich and carry on not fearing death by age.

Become a Vampire and carry on for ever more.

Take over a new younger body.

Choices:

Become a Lich
Become a Vampire
Switch to a Younger body (Magic Jar or Sarmin''s Eye)

(Anonymous Vote)

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 04 Jul 2018 04:12:41

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  04:22:18  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vampires have a bevy of crippling weaknesses and dietary needs that make isolation inconvenient. Magic jar requires recasting and range (though scrying helps) and making sure someone doesn't shank your squishy body.

Ritual suicide and clone should work, but lichdom is the best choice of the three.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  04:39:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of the three, a younger body.

Vampiric vulnerabilities (sunlight, holy symbols, teenage girls that can't act, etc) are pretty serious, and vampires are often portrayed as being totally vulnerable and unconscious when the sun is up, even if they're deep underground.

Becoming a lich means you get to watch your fingers fall off, eventually, and that seriously complicates spellcasting. Plus, few housekeepers are willing to keep cleaning up the trail of decaying organs you leave as you move about. Death dandruff is a messy thing.

But the best option isn't listed here: some sort of artificial body. Give yourself a shiny new steel body, for example, and you've not got the vampiric weaknesses, your fingers aren't going to fall off in a few centuries, you've not got a soft squishy body that needs to be replaced every few decades, and you don't have the need to eat or rest that vampires and off-the-shelf mortals have. The right mix of protection spells or a simple blueshine treatment, and you could tap dance on a rust monster without worry.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  06:07:47  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


Becoming a lich means you get to watch your fingers fall off, eventually, and that seriously complicates spellcasting. Plus, few housekeepers are willing to keep cleaning up the trail of decaying organs you leave as you move about. Death dandruff is a messy thing.



Liches don't have vocal chords, yet are still able to cast spells with verbal components. I don't really think it's an issue; Larloch and Rhangaun are still going strong, and they're each over a thousand years old, at minimum.

Hell, there are Sarrukh liches, which leads me to suspect that the decay of a lich's form isn't really tied to age so much as it's tied to the lich's own personality and goals. Shoon VII, for instance, is a demilich, but he's younger than Larloch and Rhangaun.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  09:57:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:


Becoming a lich means you get to watch your fingers fall off, eventually, and that seriously complicates spellcasting. Plus, few housekeepers are willing to keep cleaning up the trail of decaying organs you leave as you move about. Death dandruff is a messy thing.



Liches don't have vocal chords, yet are still able to cast spells with verbal components. I don't really think it's an issue; Larloch and Rhangaun are still going strong, and they're each over a thousand years old, at minimum.

Hell, there are Sarrukh liches, which leads me to suspect that the decay of a lich's form isn't really tied to age so much as it's tied to the lich's own personality and goals. Shoon VII, for instance, is a demilich, but he's younger than Larloch and Rhangaun.



Almost every depiction we have of liches is either a skeleton or a decaying corpse, so death dandruff is a thing. And it's canon that liches eventually become demiliches, with just a skull and no body. So unless the body is crumbling to dust all at once, then pieces are going to be falling off, eventually. Thus, despite any exceptions that may exist, it's canon that the physical form of a lich is going to fail.


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  13:09:17  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
4 comments no votes. seems if you peek you can't vote.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 04 Jul 2018 13:10:36
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  13:59:21  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes that is feature of polls here. You forfet your vote if you want to know how the voting is going. Basically secret ballot design. Vote before you know what the others have voted.

I have not yet voted, not sure I like the options.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  15:09:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cloning a younger body... its the best because you still have other options available. Still there's other options. Portrait of Longevity, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  16:08:32  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cloning a younger body works if you go the ritual suicide route. Clones fail if you die of natural causes.
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  21:03:26  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of those 3 options I picked :
Vampire as the least objectionable, you don't have steal bodies or devour souls, he don't have to brevil, it's a hard path, but possible.
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  02:38:10  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could always make a clone then flesh to stone your original body, after Magic jar switching with the clone. Your original body never ages. You live out in your clone body then when you die again you set off a contingency spell teleport no error back, switching with the clone after, stone to flesh. You are standing where your prized statue was, holding the scroll it was holding. No one really dies just a magic clone. Of course you could just use a slave. Doesn't even need be 100% Mulani. 25-50% Succubus/Incubus 50-75% Mulani that way you don't really age anymore either. Your original body is safe secure and undying. Of course my original body is now a Demilich on another plane / realm so I don't really care about all that. But you might.

Thay Red
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  13:40:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

You could always make a clone then flesh to stone your original body, after Magic jar switching with the clone. Your original body never ages. You live out in your clone body then when you die again you set off a contingency spell teleport no error back, switching with the clone after, stone to flesh. You are standing where your prized statue was, holding the scroll it was holding. No one really dies just a magic clone. Of course you could just use a slave. Doesn't even need be 100% Mulani. 25-50% Succubus/Incubus 50-75% Mulani that way you don't really age anymore either. Your original body is safe secure and undying. Of course my original body is now a Demilich on another plane / realm so I don't really care about all that. But you might.



Unless someone drops a spell which prevents you teleporting, or you're in an area that prevents teleporting, or you're on a plane which doesn't allow instant transport between planes, or someone uses a spell that forces possessing souls out of a body.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  16:31:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's always ensul's soultheft. Deals Int damage, if the target dies you don't age for a number of days equal to the Int damage dealt, if the target is a spellcaster you don't age for a number of days equal to the sum of the spell levels prepared by/available to the caster, if the target is a psion you don't age for a number of days equal to the psion's power point reserve.
Go to Top of Page

Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
124 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  21:59:06  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

But the best option isn't listed here: some sort of artificial body. Give yourself a shiny new steel body, for example, and you've not got the vampiric weaknesses, your fingers aren't going to fall off in a few centuries, you've not got a soft squishy body that needs to be replaced every few decades, and you don't have the need to eat or rest that vampires and off-the-shelf mortals have. The right mix of protection spells or a simple blueshine treatment, and you could tap dance on a rust monster without worry.



In one of my more recent campaigns, one of my NPCs was a sentient skeletal mage - not quite a lich, but a sentient undead wizard - who sought to escape the frailty of his own decomposing body (the players decided to call him Darwin for kicks, and the name stuck). My players actually sympathized with him and helped him construct a quite expensive golem body out of adamantine, into which he carved arcane runes with similar effects to the magic tattoos. His consciousness now resides within the construct, making effectively ageless.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  22:13:51  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

You could always make a clone then flesh to stone your original body, after Magic jar switching with the clone. Your original body never ages. You live out in your clone body then when you die again you set off a contingency spell teleport no error back, switching with the clone after, stone to flesh. You are standing where your prized statue was, holding the scroll it was holding. No one really dies just a magic clone. Of course you could just use a slave. Doesn't even need be 100% Mulani. 25-50% Succubus/Incubus 50-75% Mulani that way you don't really age anymore either. Your original body is safe secure and undying. Of course my original body is now a Demilich on another plane / realm so I don't really care about all that. But you might.



Unless someone drops a spell which prevents you teleporting, or you're in an area that prevents teleporting, or you're on a plane which doesn't allow instant transport between planes, or someone uses a spell that forces possessing souls out of a body.



Well you run into the same problem of death no matter which option selected. All that any life extended does is prevent death from old age. It does not prevent death from successful hostile attack.

Basically the poll is asking for a vote of way one might choose o try to live forever. None of the options insure using any path, will live forever.

Side thought. Becoming a Chosen clearly appears to extend life.
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  01:30:31  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

You could always make a clone then flesh to stone your original body, after Magic jar switching with the clone. Your original body never ages. You live out in your clone body then when you die again you set off a contingency spell teleport no error back, switching with the clone after, stone to flesh. You are standing where your prized statue was, holding the scroll it was holding. No one really dies just a magic clone. Of course you could just use a slave. Doesn't even need be 100% Mulani. 25-50% Succubus/Incubus 50-75% Mulani that way you don't really age anymore either. Your original body is safe secure and undying. Of course my original body is now a Demilich on another plane / realm so I don't really care about all that. But you might.



Unless someone drops a spell which prevents you teleporting, or you're in an area that prevents teleporting, or you're on a plane which doesn't allow instant transport between planes, or someone uses a spell that forces possessing souls out of a body.



Well you run into the same problem of death no matter which option selected. All that any life extended does is prevent death from old age. It does not prevent death from successful hostile attack.

Basically the poll is asking for a vote of way one might choose o try to live forever. None of the options insure using any path, will live forever.

Side thought. Becoming a Chosen clearly appears to extend life.



That is why you carry a Staff of the Eye, see Sarmin's Eye Spell.

Thay Red
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  01:34:55  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sarmin's Eye, This is a spell / cursed item that is one of those things that is just so much fun to play. Sarmin was a Wizard and later Lich and even after that Demi Lich in my Sea of Dust Oearth adventures. In his final battle Sarmin devastated an attacking army killing himself and turning a central Oasis in the Sea of Dust into yet more dust. He escaped his demise by magic Jaring into his Staff and flinging it into the Forgotten Realms. Skimper my Red Wizard found the broken staff and suddenly all went black. Skimper woke up in a strange ghostly body invisible if there at all. Unable to hear or touch or taste Skimper found he could float / fly about. He couldn't speak but he could see and could detect thoughts as per the spell. Skimper woke at night and spent a while floating flying around in circles trying to figure out what happened. Eventually with sun rise he found he could see better but when looking into a pool of water found out he wasn't looking back at himself.

Through experiments Skimper found he could touch but it was wierd and only right around where he could see from. He didn't blink and deduced that somehow he was in an Arcane eye or Wizards eye spell form. Invisible but not just a ghost. He could bump into things. Skimper also realized that he could see his tracks in the dirt where he came upon the broken staff. And even more astonishingly he could see his tracks leading off further down the path. Skimper was stuck in a Magic Jar. A flying invisible Arcane Eye Magic Jar. One that could hear birds think. Luckily Skimper as a divination specialist used the Detect thoughts spell enough to recognize it.

With nothing else to do Skimper started following his tracks. While doing so he happened upon a pair of Goblins. It was then that Skimper found he could not only hear the Goblin thoughts but could send a thought to a Goblin. This resulted in a Goblin fight when one Goblin could hear his suggestion that the other has stolen the gold coin they found. The one surviving Goblin celebrated his victory and learned that a ghost, Skimper, was here to help this Goblin become a master Goblin Mage. it seemed that Skimper remembered his spells but was unable to cast any while in the Magic Jar, but could cast spells using the Goblin.

Eventually the Goblin Mage attacked a group of Human but suddenly no spells came. The Goblin was dispatched and a pretty young female fighter became the next vessel of Skimper. Skimpers form before he found the staff was that of a very old Red Wizard. A plan was hatched. it took many days and weeks and the fighter commander slowly started to change, distrust broke among her subordinates as she spend many a day locked in her tower ranting and talking to herself. One day she picked up her new books, a carry case and walked away. provisions and a wooden tree branch walking staff, wearing a travel robe, with hooded cloak.

Long story short, Skimper transformed the Young Lady Commander into a Junior Mage and apprentice. Then with supplies and crafting materials She made a new Staff, the Staff of the Eye. It is a Wizards Staff lets the owner contain a 1" gem in the tip that sees for the maker. It can be prepped with a Magic Jar and a few other spells detect thoughts, Arcane Eye, Invisibility, Comprehend Languages, cause blindness. These spells with the prep and magic process allows one to direct all sight through the gem at the end of the Staff. With Skimpers prodding our slightly insane Mage used the Gem that just appeared next to the Staff one day. When resting the Magic Jar Wizards / Arcane Eye trans forms back into the Gem of the Magic Jar, available for all to see.

Using the Staff of the Eye causes permanent Blindness as long as the staff is owned. But the Gem / Eye on the staff allows one to see through it. One can look over walls, around corners, inside containers etc... One is also immune to all sight based attacks even gaze attacks like the Medusa. Because the Gem has the invisibility cast upon it it is unseeable by others not able to see the invisible. Those that can would see a 1" inch eye without a lid gazing about. Staff owner gains Dark vision and has 120 foot range normal and dark vision.

However the Staff owner is only seeing through one eye and suffers a -4 ranged attack penalty. Finally the Gem is a prepared Magic Jar and one can use it as such. but upon using it to escape, like Sarmin did with Skimpers body and Skimper with his new young body. The staff shatters and a whole new Adventure starts for the new Possessor of the Eye of Sarmin.

Skimper was most pleased with his new body and frequently jumps into younger bodies using his newly constructed Staff of the Eye and deposits Crazy floating Ghosts all about. The Staff of the Eye will warp the Detect thoughts spell into a cursed item like a medallion of ESP. with thought projection as well.

Sarmins Eye. 6th level Spell. Used to create the Staff which will allow for storing and even taking over others bodies. The possessed host wholly loses their body and either must take a new, or float around as a crazy invisible Arcane eye.

Thoughts and Memories are kept by the mind / eye and transfered to the new body, these however need to replenish and one starts out with a levels of the 'befriended' subject/victim. This new victim needs to develop to a point of gaining a new level every month through conversation training added to adventuring until able to make a new Staff of the eye. Once mounted the Staff blinds the maker and if a magic jar or Eye of Sarmin possessed gem is used then the Arcane eye ghost can trade places with the new victim.

While in 'ghost' form the possessor is able to cast spells through the 'victim' at 3 levels higher than the possessors level. For non spell casters this means as a 3rd level wizard. This process will see the intelligence of the spell caster enhanced by 1/4 the 'ghost' intelligence, in Skimpers case 20/4= +5 intelligence boost, to allow a fighter intelligence 8 to be 13. Further enhancement magic will increase the base level of the 'victim'. If already a spell caster this will further enhance the 'victim' with additional caster levels. The 'ghost' can usually find and pick put a higher intelligence 'victim' to communicate with. The goblin was a 7 intelligence the other was a 5. A Circlet of intelligence +4 would enhance the goblin 7 + 4 = 11 + 5 = 16. High enough to cast the Sarmins Eye spell, make a new staff and live possess the body of the Goblin, who gets to live as a ghost possibly going insane. Upon possession the caster takes over at the unmodified level and at the Casters full Mental abilities. ie Intelligence.

One will look like the new form even possess its Strength Dexterity and Constitution even Charisma. Wisdom is possessors increased by +1 if new form had a higher Wisdom score as some of that the wisdom is imparted. Creating a Staff eliminates the 'victims' saving throw vs the magic jar. Of course the 'victim' doesn't know this. The new 'ghost' is now a 8th plus level spell caster with enough knowledge to figure out what is going on and repeat the process. Taking a body is not a 'good' act, but you are not actually killing the body so it isn't necessarily an 'evil' act. Without the Staff the Magic Jar gem can attempt once per week to get its body back by Magic Jar but only with its own body. This is why the gem is not taken, very often, by the new 'possessor' of the body. Unless one is able to spend the 1000 gpv gem right away. And even then one needs to be careful. In 'ghost' form one is knocked out for 12 hours and while unconscious one is in gem form. The gem is considered magical and highly resistant to destruction +10 save. Detect magic will detect magic of enchantment form. If the spell is used to create a possessed staff it immediately attacks the 'victim' and the staff is destroyed. If a non possessed gem is used and a staff is created it lasts as long as it is possessed or until used to transfer to a new body or if the possessor of the staff is killed and the staff blows apart with the death.

This is not a reincarnation spell. It is similar but a slow process taking months to complete the transformation avoiding death and getting a new body. Even if the Staff of the Eye is used in empty form to attack a new 'victim' stealing their body, the new body has a recovery time. While one can assume the identity immediately one is limited to new bodies original spell casters level +3 regaining new levels up to original level at one per month or while adventuring at half normal experience costs. If used with an original live body the new form will seem to have killed the old body or perhaps the old form died when his/her staff exploded. External attacks are treated like the Magic Jar spell.

Some think the Magic Jar happens when the Staff of the Eye is created even if 'empty' and the body is slaved to the staff as some form of living zombie. Maybe maybe not...


Skimper did catch up with Sarmin after he become a Lich. While getting a few of his belongings back, Sarmin returned to The Sea of Dust with Skimper and Sarmin on good terms. Out somewhere in the hills around Thay is a portal to the Sea of Dust and a very powerful Demi Lich.

Thay Red
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  01:41:38  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do wonder if you end up at your own level or at the attackers level or if you have to build your levels up again. Might be an option to just switching bodies all the time.

Thay Red
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  02:33:23  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a DM I'd never allow any to work. They have become mundane and fail to add anything to a campaign in my mind. At the very least such a character would become NPC. However, if a player character works long and hard at some other way of cheating death that involves some creativity (or at least draws on something literary they just read - Dorian Grey for example), then I'd play along - at least for a while.
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  06:20:18  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are literally dozens of examples on how to extend one's life beyond game norms. For the most part, none are needed unless you are a big fan of rapidly advancing timelines. A gaming session should never advance more than 1 week in time - allowing for non rp'd rest periods (how could you roleplay that time any faster and still be legitimate?). That means if you have a weekly game all year long, the campaign will only advance time 1 year. Even figuring in magical aging, as long as magical restoration is an option there should never be a problem.

This means characters that seek immortality are in it for the "power" and have failed to learn the lessons taught by almost every such story - both in the FR and in other literature: that immortality is a curse rather than a prize to attain. I'd hope every DM works long and hard to hammer that lesson home to any "immortal" character. The simplest way would be to make the magic fail or go wild in some way - immortal but curse. Lich but can't recall basic spells, etc.
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  08:26:57  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's kind of difficult to do when we have many ancient creatures retaining their mental faculties. Larloch and Rhangaun come to mind; Qysar Shoon VII; Telamont Tanthul; numerous ancient dragons; the Terraseer; Ioulaum; Aumvor; etc all come to mind. The crazy ones all have mitigating circumstances; Halaster is only nuts in Undermountain, for instance, while Sammaster had problems loooong before lichdom.
Go to Top of Page

Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  18:57:34  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the general lesson of Immortality is simply a battle for purpose. All long lived creatures and characters eventually boil down to the battle to maintain purpose for themselves.

Elves, Dragons, and those like them with natural millennia spanning lifespans have a temperament to match but often times will eventually devolve into idleness.

Characters who have achieved immortality through ambition don't always have a matching purpose for when they attain it. That is the general failure state of immortal characters.
Its the purpose that is captivating not the Immortality itself. Ultimately not every character has a burning eternal purpose and the will to see it done. That's why I'm partial to vampirism as the Hunger itself is like a poor man's obsession. Hunger will drive anyone to do the unthinkable so having that be the eternal driving force of a character kind of just writes itself, at the cost of a slew of weaknesses.

So if we are just talking about methods, really vampirism is the only one that comes with a implicit driving force to survive, without them having to have lofty or unattainable goals. Without that you are doomed to death by melancholy or idleness really.

Although I have used all of these methods and more for various NPCs over the years lol.
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  02:42:09  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That's kind of difficult to do when we have many ancient creatures retaining their mental faculties. Larloch and Rhangaun come to mind; Qysar Shoon VII; Telamont Tanthul; numerous ancient dragons; the Terraseer; Ioulaum; Aumvor; etc all come to mind. The crazy ones all have mitigating circumstances; Halaster is only nuts in Undermountain, for instance, while Sammaster had problems loooong before lichdom.



All fine examples of NPCs; none of which need to be roleplayed like a PC. Apples and oranges I'd say. Note that while each of those are "active" in the realms - they basically don't do anything noticeable for centuries on end. Aside from Halaster, the others are pretty much stories told to frighten children, if they've not been forgotten altogether.
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  05:08:21  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That's kind of difficult to do when we have many ancient creatures retaining their mental faculties. Larloch and Rhangaun come to mind; Qysar Shoon VII; Telamont Tanthul; numerous ancient dragons; the Terraseer; Ioulaum; Aumvor; etc all come to mind. The crazy ones all have mitigating circumstances; Halaster is only nuts in Undermountain, for instance, while Sammaster had problems loooong before lichdom.



All fine examples of NPCs; none of which need to be roleplayed like a PC. Apples and oranges I'd say. Note that while each of those are "active" in the realms - they basically don't do anything noticeable for centuries on end. Aside from Halaster, the others are pretty much stories told to frighten children, if they've not been forgotten altogether.



Which doesn't really matter. By the time you're pulling off immortality shenanigans, you've gone far beyond mortal concerns and are involved in far higher theaters.

I find that arbitrary limits being imposed on the PC while NPCs get off scot free doesn't particularly make it fun for the players. Why would a lich, whose transformation sharpens and hones his mind and will, suddenly forget spells? They've transcended petty mortal limitations, after all.

Bored immortals being driven nuts by their own boredom isn't an uncommon trope, but from what we've seen in the Realms, the 'immortals' are carrying on just fine. Even that lich Larloch keeps as a scribe isn't bored, he's just depressed (and with good reason).
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  05:38:01  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My point is a campaign where a PC attains that level of "far higher concerns" should end. Time to roll new characters and retire the old.

Super powerful characters have been toyed with several times but never really successfully if you ask me. The best try was the old D&D immortal rules, but even that had problems - namely that things became very hack and slash with gods and such. The Bloodstone attempt didn't really make any sense at all to me. the 3rd+ edition attempts I thought were the worst and just created super powerful PCs with no good explanation of how low level beings hold their own and thrive among all the countless super powerful beings needed to make a super powerful "epic" campaign fun.
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  04:00:34  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Of the three, a younger body.

Vampiric vulnerabilities (sunlight, holy symbols, teenage girls that can't act, etc) are pretty serious, and vampires are often portrayed as being totally vulnerable and unconscious when the sun is up, even if they're deep underground.

Becoming a lich means you get to watch your fingers fall off, eventually, and that seriously complicates spellcasting. Plus, few housekeepers are willing to keep cleaning up the trail of decaying organs you leave as you move about. Death dandruff is a messy thing.

But the best option isn't listed here: some sort of artificial body. Give yourself a shiny new steel body, for example, and you've not got the vampiric weaknesses, your fingers aren't going to fall off in a few centuries, you've not got a soft squishy body that needs to be replaced every few decades, and you don't have the need to eat or rest that vampires and off-the-shelf mortals have. The right mix of protection spells or a simple blueshine treatment, and you could tap dance on a rust monster without worry.



There are other leap frog options to time travel into the future. A Timer spell and a flesh to stone to make you a statue to turn back after a year with a timed Stone to flesh spell. Guess I should include that in the spell list.

Imprisonment works good albeit hard to reverse.

My Skimper's compartment spell can lock you away but you still age. Unless you drink a stone to flesh potion that wears off after a set time.

Again not ideal but makes for an interesting way to time travel one way to the future.

Sarmin's Eye Spell lets you turn into a 'ghost' of sorts. Even cast spells and remain ageless. In Gem form.

Thay Red
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  17:36:26  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

But the best option isn't listed here: some sort of artificial body. Give yourself a shiny new steel body, for example, and you've not got the vampiric weaknesses, your fingers aren't going to fall off in a few centuries, you've not got a soft squishy body that needs to be replaced every few decades, and you don't have the need to eat or rest that vampires and off-the-shelf mortals have. The right mix of protection spells or a simple blueshine treatment, and you could tap dance on a rust monster without worry.


Being satisfied with a shiny steel body requires that one lack entirely any sort of sensual interest. Yes, it will allow you to extend existence to further intellectual interests, but it would probably come at a high price for the vast majority of people.

Vampires have weaknesses, but they might still taste, touch, covet and crave. It's easy to imagine them savouring blood like a feast and fine vintages, sensuously enjoying the embrace of their victim and even glorying in the heady ecstacy of imbying the life energy. It's a twisted form of sensuality, but at least you still feel.

But a living body is even better, of course. What's the point of living when you'll never know the feel of sun on your skin, the softness of silk sheets, the luxurious relaxation of warm springs or saunas, the exquisite tastes of your favourite food and drink, the thrill of a new lover's body or the familiar comfort and affection of cuddling with an old one?

For that matter, how much of the experience when we enjoy art, poetry, literature or intelligent conversation is founded in emotional responses that require a physical body to generate? Without glands, hormones, dopamine receptors and the biochemical mechanisms of a living body, would we even be capable of deriving pleasure from our hobbies and interests? Would we want anything? Be fulfilled by any accomplishments?

Vampires seem to mimic a lot of the physical responses that mortals experience. They are, in many ways, the most life-like undead, with all the flaws and weaknesses this implies. They can suffer pain, grief, terror and hunger, which many other undead seem above. But, then again, maybe that implies that they are also capable of moments of happiness as well, despite their unnatural state.

For my part, I hope that I would not be tempted to steal the souls, lives or energy of others to keep me young, or their bodies to take over. Doing that would mean that I had trouble liking myself and that seems like no way to live. But I'm pretty sure that life as a pure intellect locked inside an unfeeling metal shell wouldn't be much of a temptation in any case. Not enough quality of life. Better non-existence than a pale imitation of life, serving mostly to remember bygone pleasures, never to be experienced again.

The Ancient Greek and Near Eastern versions of 'hell' seem pretty awful to me. A grey existence mimicking life, but without any of the things that give it purpose.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  18:56:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taken in that regard, a constructed body is no different than an undead one.

But the folks that choose undeath generally aren't interested in sunny days and nookie -- they're going for a purely intellectual existence.

So if the objective is a purely intellectual existence, which is the better option -- the body that's going to fall apart, or one that will still be the same centuries down the road?

However, you undercut your own arguments by referring to the "biochemical mechanisms of a living body" -- and yet the vampires you also cite experience all the things you mention, without that living body.

Look at some of the other issues with undead bodies. How does a skeleton move without muscles and ligaments attached to its bones? How does a lich see without eyes? How does that same lich speak without lungs to push air past the also absent vocal chords, and without the mouth and lips to shape the words?

If the mechanisms of undeath can provide ways for dead bodies to continue to move and speak and see and hear, surely touch and emotion are simple matters.

With undead beings that are known to be capable of thought, why are we assuming that only part of their brains are working?

Now, getting back into my theoretical artificial body -- golems and intelligent magical items are capable of perceiving the world around them, despite the lack of eyes to see, nerves to carry the visual input, and brains to process it. And despite the lack of any physical means of doing so, golems and a lot of constructs -- intelligent and unintelligent -- are still capable of moving around.

So if solid stone or forged iron can be made to flex and move as if hinged and flexible, and if an intelligent dagger can see without eyes, then magic is clearly providing the means for these things.

And if magic can do all that for both formerly living bodies and for inanimate objects, then surely something as simple as a sense of taste or touch can also be magically recreated.

In a world where constructs and the undead can function the same as living bodies, the presence of life is unnecessary for what we consider to be biological functions.

Heck, even in the real world, scientists are working on giving prosthetic devices a sense of touch.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  23:59:51  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is fantasy remember - Data on star trek was "Fully Functional" and "Programmed in multiple techniques."
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2018 :  01:19:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm reminded of that time Xykon snapped and murdered the waitress because lichdom had robbed him of the ability to taste his coffee.
Go to Top of Page

Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2018 :  03:53:26  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is another very effective intellectual body. Comes from the cursed Magic item that many find and celebrate. The Ring of Gaseous Form. As long as you are wearing your magic items ahead of putting the Ring of gaseous form on, have your silent spell feat or vocalise spell & still spell feat or ring or spell of telekineses. Otherwise you won't be casting spells or touching anything. But you are immune to mundane items and attacks. Don't age don't really die depends how one considers the ring to work. You are not incorporeal or ethereal nor are you undead. You don't breath but can be pushed by strong winds faster than 1" movement but the wind causes no damage. Haste or cast fly on yourself and you should be able to move faster, Overland Flight to quadruple your speed for 1 hour / lvl.

In gaseous form you are susceptible to spells positive and negative. Not sure what stoneskin or barkskin or iron body will do. Polymorph spells, shapechange, invisibility...

Lots of fun.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 18 Jul 2018 04:27:09
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000