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redthe3rd
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  09:55:31  Show Profile Send redthe3rd a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I've been reading the forum thread about deepspawns, and posts on a few other forums. I'm looking at 3.5

There are a few things I seek some clarification on.

1. simulacrum and a deep spawn. My understanding... the deep spawn has 14hd, so not to hard to do, (apart from the possibility of being eaten) but let's say you managed to hold one for a time. You cast (or have cast) simulacrum. you now have a 7hd deepspawn at your command.
So in theory is this possible ?

2. I've read that deepspawns create a spawn that is of the same species as something they have previously eaten. I have also read that they basically make a clone of someone/thing they have eaten. Which is accurate?

3. For clarity any creature a spawn has eaten in the past it can replicate either as a clone or "species accurate copy" (as per the answer to question 2.)

4. Does the deepspawn have to eat the entire creature or just a part of a creature to make a copy? (eating a leg of a dragon vs the whole dragon.) I'm assuming a dead creature is acceptable then to be eaten as eating something still alive... seems sort of impossible to some degree.

5. Can a deepspawn eat another deepspawn and then produce copies as such?

6. Are there any limitations on what it can eat? I mean any creature can be beaten to a pulp and dropped down a hole to be finished.

7a. so going to the golem/horde archtype and these questions. Depending on the answers... Could a party capture a deepspawn, simulacrum, beat the snot out of original deepspawn, let the copy deepspawn finish it off. begin feeding the copy and eventually make more deepspawn?
7b. a simulacrum deepspawn could, as an aside, eat any other creature and reproduce it ??

Any additional information is welcome. Thank you

redthe3rd
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  10:45:57  Show Profile Send redthe3rd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
must be tired already know the answer to a deppspawn eating a deppspawn question. so forget that one.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1369 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  13:35:27  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The spawn is an exact replica, right down to a wart on the nose if I understand it right. There can be more than one, as they don't go insane like a normal clone would.

I'd say the deepspawn has to eat an entire creature, otherwise you could feed it a pickled beholder eyestalk and be cranking out beholder minions. Up to you of course on what you decide.

Not sure on a simulacrum eating an original. I'd think no initially, but would have to read up on the spell.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  13:51:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a note on simulacrum: "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD ).

Since the simulacrum of a deepspawn is not a fully leveled deepspawn, a DM would be well within his rights to adjudicate that said simulacrum should LOSE certain special abilities. I would personally say that any deepspawn simulacrum loses the ability to recreate creatures. I would say similar for a simulacrum of any other creature that creates spawn (for instance, werewolves wouldn't pass on their lycanthropy.... vampire simulacrums can't create vampires, etc.... although personally I wouldn't allow simulacrum of undead).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Dec 2017 00:51:47
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redthe3rd
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2017 :  18:57:42  Show Profile Send redthe3rd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I've managed to answer 1,2,3, and 5 for myself. Sometimes reading late at night ... well let's just say I should not be doing it because I missed some simple answers there.

For the replies. Thank you. Good to know that the simulacrum would be effective but as always the DM has ultimate say on what is allowed or not allowed. I can understand the removal of special powers. Something I will have to inquire at the table about.

Your point on #4 (eating an entire creature) is 100% valid and what I would have thought. I think it's safe to say that I don't need a rules quote to assume this.

7a and b are cleared up.

So that leaves only the possibility of #6, am I missing (because obviously I just missed some basic information here earlier in my questions) any limitations on what a deepspawn can eat and there by create ??? (apart from the size limitation, and any DM ruling.)

Also, thank you again for the quick replies.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  01:20:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd personally also limit what it can eat to what it can actually eat (so for instance, its not eating any iron golems, stone golems, etc...). I would also specify that whatever it is has to actually be a living being (no undead). I would also specify that it can't be a being who is animated by magic (such that even if they eat say a magical wooden scarecrow or an animated quarterstaff, they can't create them as they aren't alive). In my mind, all of the aforementioned should be common sense. The next that I state will be kind of iffy.

I would adjudicate that it cannot duplicate a native outsider. For instance, a demon, devil, angel, yugoloth, etc.... I say this because these beings are generally considered to be created from the energy of these planes or from souls. I wouldn't give that much "capability" to a deepspawn. This comes down to "how" it does what it does, and I'd imagine this has something to do with the ability to lend a portion of the soul of a creature that it has devoured.

Hmmm, and actually everything I just stated.... its in the rules for deepspawn.... "deepspawn can grow and give birth to any creature native to the Material Plane that it has devoured (not outsiders, elementals, undead, or other dual-dimensioned creatures)."

Lastly, I wouldn't allow a deepspawn to recreate any creature as large or larger than itself, and I would enforce this ruling by stating that any creature it eats for duplication must be eaten in one "sitting". This would fit that the spawn A) must be eaten and B) is produced within its body... so there simply has to be room. So, basically, one that's large could only produce medium creatures. One that's huge could make large. One that's gargantuan could make huge.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  02:38:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for whether the simulcrum could make copies. I would say yes, but put in the caveat that such copies would be 'imperfect (basically, copies made by a copy). If you ever seen Michael keaton's old gem of a movie, Multiplicity. If you did, then remember the clone of a clone? It was kinda..... slow.

So you'd basically have some deformed, ugly, stupid copies. Thats what I would do with that. It could prove hilarious.

I would think the Deepspawn could create another deepspawn, regardless of whether they ate one or not - they have to reproduce somehow. I don't think one would willingly do so if in captivity, however.

When the dwarves were using them to make armies, there were multiple copies of the same dwarves, which does mean that it doesn't necessarilly have to 'birth' the very last thing it ate (they must be feeding them something else, and then have the produce more of the same dwarves). Also, I have to wonder - how perfect is the copy? If you fed it a dead body, then would it still have the gaping wound in its chest? Would the 'new' dwarf be younger than the original? (like a real clone)

From a scientific point of view, I would imagine only the tiniest part would be needed for consumption (after all, its just using the DNA), but from a D&D DM's PoV, I would say screw that, and that you'd have to feed it the whole creature, just as way of balancing things (otherwise, why aren't people creating armies of young dragons?) And even if its limited by the number of HD of the original Deepspawn* (which means the simulcrum should only work on creatures half as powerful), you'd still be able to feed a very young dragon to it and raise your own army of dragons (so, just NO).

Also, in the case of the dwarves, their mental faculties began to break down (many went insane), which indicates there is some sort of built-in imperfection. Perhaps each time it makes the same copy, the next one is a little less... stable. You'd have to feed it new raw material to make copies from, otherwise the copies would continue to degenerate with each successive 'generation'.

Also, the Deepspawn controls the creatures, so if you had a captured Deepspawn, and had it making dragons (or Beholders, etc), sooner or later you'd be in a VERY bad situation).

And this whole thread/train-of-thought has made me realize the deepspawn should be from the Far Realms (aberrations), AND the should be connected to the Beholders. What if Beholders created them, to increase their own numbers, and thats what started the whole war-thing between beholders from different hives; each hive is directly descended from a different progenitor? It would explain a LOT - each particular 'take' thinks its the most perfect version of a Beholder. What started out as their way of dominating the universe turned against them by creating massive in-fighting.


*My assumption here is that they can't create anything that has more HD than them - I am pretty sure I read that somewhere. That means if you could get your simulcrum Deepspawn to function properly, it would be limited to 7HD or less creatures.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2017 02:44:26
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redthe3rd
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  06:06:19  Show Profile Send redthe3rd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So far in the rules, and as was stated there is a size limit but no mention of a HD limit. In fact I think I first found these forums from someone posing the question of a captured deepspawn, some sort of control, and a wyrmling for food.

I can see the multiplicity stand point if you were making copies, of a copy. which seems odd. I think of the deepspawn more as a xerox machine. provide it with the materials to do so and it can create the same "blank" spawn pops out.

I don't know the specific rules on linking here so I won't link but there is obviously info via MM and such.

In regards to the control aspect that is why the simulacrum. A 7HD spawn would be more fragile and such, but with proper boosting, allies, and such it shouldn't have trouble being fed.

The deepspawn is limited in how large a creature it can replicate. Apart from the previous limits stated above by Sleyvas, there is also this bit
"A deepspawn can spawn only creatures identical to those it has physically consumed. Each spawn possesses even the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and spells known) of the original but retains only dim memories of its former life. Only Large or smaller corporeal, living creatures native to the Material Plane can be spawned. After spawning, a deepspawn must wait 4d6 days before doing so again."

So large is the biggest you are going to get. As for spawn though it doesn't say anything about them growing or aging. I thought I read that they could age and grow?????


Maybe if I explained some possible thoughts I had regarding such things.
Lets say I was looking into making some BBEG.
I wanted him to be physically weak, not hell bent on destroying everything, more a manipulator, string puller and have some sort of over arching long term goal of "not sure yet".

I think an artificer turned dark. I like them, I like the versatility, I like that in many ways they are normal people, they learn explore tinker and create. They are not near gods (20th level wizard shenanigans) But are fully capable in their own right of breaking things.

So I don't want this artificer to be a creation of abusing wands and custom magic items (I mean yes a little bit here and there but nothing so typical as being able to blast away with wand after wand after wand.)
So I begin to explore the hordificer roll. Now there are some serious negatives to building an army of homunculi.
None the less our puppet master might explore some cyst manipulations, some homunculi (dedicated wrights can only build 1 single magic item per creator, so 50 wrights are still limited to a single item between all 50 of them... but non-magic items? say like long swords to destabilize economy or provide better weapons to rival nations etc.. seems possible)

But our BBEG is not satisfied, he works away at making himself a plane or two.. places where he can experiment and create for his master stroke of world subjugation. He keeps growing his personal army of servants and such.
Eventually one day he realized he can craft the hell out of things, larger more wonderful (terrible things) but only if he had the energy needed to make such creations. He sets his mind to how to obtain this energy, though he is evil, he is not all about the gods and sacrificing, at least not in the more basic sense. He worries about taking souls and upsetting the balance before he can make his end game moves. He then stumbles upon liquid pain.
He knows this is the key but can't for the life of him make it work in the proportions he needs. There are any number of problems associated. But, finally there he has it, eternity of torture this is what he needs, and couples it with a liquid pain extractor, it's slow but he knows he can move it to one of the small pocket planes created by genesis
He now knows how to create the materials he will need but where will he find the bodies.

enter deepspawn and simulacrum. (the tricky part) but our BBEG manages to get this spell cast and then takes his obedient xerox machine home with him and tosses it into a pocket plane (ideally with flowing time but whatever). He sets his horde about catching small animals and such to keep the thing fed. In the meantime looking out for any humanoid type creature. a noisy little orc will do.
Now he begins to produce orc copies. copies that by chain of command are obedient and will sit while a spell is cast upon them. from that moment on they are nothing more than batteries generating liquid pain.
it may time time but eventually our BBEG is nearing completion of his manipulations and his grand plans are coming to fruition. He has a steady and ever growing supply of liquid pain to be used to craft his end game plan (still not sure what that is yet but it needs to be something.. not mundane)

As a long run campaign this one could span years of growth and clues. constantly chasing the puppet master and thwarting small plans here and there, losing other encounters (not resulting in death hopefully) eventually being pulled together in a great tapestry that ties all the "singular" adventures and "strange" happenings in the world together for the master plot.

So... in the grand scheme this has some flare to it but it is not the only way to accomplish what I'm asking, just think it could provide several fun side adventures and fun little encounters along the way to reaching the climax. This was one way I thought of getting to that climax (with a deepspawn making copies of orcs for a liquid pain extraction facility)

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  13:00:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
good. I didn't see a size limitation in the version I was looking at, but there definitely needed to be one. I would still put in there that a large deepspawn can only make medium creatures.

I would also point out that the 2nd edition version of the deepspawn was much more controlled from a DM's PoV. Basically, you got the creature, but it had no learned abilities/class abilities. So, you couldn't feed it an 18th level sorcerer and have it pump out 20 18th level sorcerers. I would personally apply some of the 2nd edition logic to the creatures. After all 3rd edition states that they only have dim memories of their past, so why do they have all their learned class abilities in the same sentence? Rather, you feed it say an 18th level human sorcerer? You get a naked human who knows how to punch with its hands.

From 2nd edition
Deepspawn eat anything organic, but prefer fresh meat. By some as-yet-unexplained natural means, a Deepspawn can “grow” and give birth to any creature native to the Prime Material Plane it has ever devoured (but not undead or other duo-dimensional creatures). The “spawn” have the natural attacks, including spell-like powers, alignment, and intelligence of their forebears, but class abilities and other learned skills are not gained. A spawn “grows” in 1d4 days (varying with size and complexity) in a Deepspawn, which must ingest meat, vegetable matter, and water or blood to fuel the birthing. The Deepspawn then splits open to emit a fully-active spawn. Spawn are never hostile towards their parent, and cannot be made to attack them, even by magical means. Spawn can attack or defend themselves within one round of emerging. At the DM’s option, they may use certain powers or abilities clumsily for a few rounds.

I still wouldn't allow a lesser hit die deepspawn simulacrum to work. There should be some disadvantages to its being a lesser creature. Also, a simulacrum is NOT a flesh creature, so it doesn't have the "innards" that a deepspawn does to perform the action. It is an illusion over a pile of snow that doesn't melt. If anything, I'd say that a simulacrum of a deepspawn can create half hit die creations like a simulacrum of the creature, and those creatures should melt away within a couple days (say losing a hit die per day). It could be an interesting concept, but honestly again, in my own games, I wouldn't open that door.

I say the aforementioned because simulacrum is a VERY dangerous spell and even though they tweaked it much from the second edition version, its still got some needs for work when it comes to making simulacrums of creatures rather than classed characters. Still, the spell should remain in game, as its a damn good concept.... it just needs careful DM adjudication.

@Markustay

I agree, deepspawn should be some kind of aberration from the far realms. I wouldn't necessarily say they were a creation of beholders. I wouldn't be adverse to saying they are beholder-kin though, as they have the look. I would be careful though on saying that deepspawn spawn can reproduce and creature new "breeds" of beholders... I can see creating other beholders, but they should be sterile.

BTW, I could see that the dwarves maybe discovered their deepspawn in relation to say a beholder nest possibly using one to create beholder "minions" to invade gold dwarf communities.

One of the things I could definitely see happening is a deepspawn being fed a pegasi, black unicorn, griffin, etc.... and creating a cavalry horde for an army. These cavalry mounts would then be considered acceptable losses, so long as the remains are brought back to feed the deepspawn so that it can make more..... which makes me think, I just found my source of the Tharch of Peleveran's mounts in their war against Shyr for the past century in Abeir. Zulkir Lauzoril just happens to have a few deepspawn spread out in protective custody and under mind controls and other assurances.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  14:20:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have multiple origins for creatures because even though some creatures look similar and have similar attributes does not mean they are the same or in any way related.

For me, deepspawn in the shanatar area were created by dwarves that used one of the elder runes (the rune of life) which transformed one of their number into a rapidly mutating creature that cloned other creatures. It evolved into a huge mass of flesh and tentacles that spawned other creatures just like it.

Doesnt mean this is the single point of origin for all deepspawns. The chances of someone else using magic to make a blob that consumes and clones other creatures is not impossibly high in a high fantasy world. Accidents could have created others elsewhere. Farspawn taint might have created a few in the lowerdark.

I just make each variety subtly different. One variety might have no tentacles but massive grasping tongues, another might be fire resistant, another might be flat like a carpet but can inflate itself to look dangerous.


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2017 :  23:56:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I agree, deepspawn should be some kind of aberration from the far realms. I wouldn't necessarily say they were a creation of beholders. I wouldn't be adverse to saying they are beholder-kin though, as they have the look. I would be careful though on saying that deepspawn spawn can reproduce and creature new "breeds" of beholders... I can see creating other beholders, but they should be sterile.

I'm not sure you understood where I was going with that - i was actually trying to merge old D&D (Basic and 1e) lore with later, SJ lore on them.

Beholders are naturally solitary creatures 9as they were written in the beginning), They do NOT like each other, and will rarely work together. I actually never read I, Tyrant, so I'm not sure what the canon is, but I think what I propose can be lumped on top of it (thus all of that is true, but its "not the whole story"). What i was thinking was that beholders existed in the Before-verse; the original universe that proceeded our own, and 'died' with the birth of ours (but not really, it continues to exist as 'The Far Realms', which exist outside the constraints of time, but because 'time' keeps growing in the D&Dverse, The Far Realms are growing smaller because of it). Anyhow, The Beholders, either back before their universe started to become undone, or immediately after discovering the new universe, decided they wanted to 'control everything'. they were tired of the upstart illithids being the 'big empire' in their universe, and wanted to start their own, better one (in their opinion, or course).

So they took something they already had - probably Hive-Mothers - and created the Deepspawn from them (and they wouldn't call them that). The idea was to copy existing Beholders with them, creating armies of similar creatures. Before this time, each beholder was unique. What they failed to contemplate was the social problems this would cause - now that they were able to make 'same looking' beholders, the idea of bigotry crept into their culture, and eventually, groups went to war with one another over 'which form was better'. It changed the entire dynamic of their social order (what little there was), and the dreams of an empire of their own died quickly.

You can still find the unique (AFAIK) beholders here and there - the Zhents deal with a few. but whenever you find hives of them, they will all be of the same type, and if there are other hives (with different-looking beholders) in them anywhere nearby, they will not stop fighting with them, except in extremely desperate situations (like when both or all hives in area are under attack by a common enemy, and risk annihilation, like what happened with Calimshan). This is why the hives of Anauroch were able to work together - they knew the Phaerimm would destroy them all, otherwise.

The beholders no longer use the deepspawn, but they do hold them in reverence. the deepspawn are thus no longer considered part of the 'Beholder race' (although still maybe beholder-kin). They probably thought if they went back to their old way of reproducing, the chaos' would kick back in and they be unique once again. Alas, they did not happen, and copied beholders reproduced exact duplicates of themselves, even by normal procreation. EXTREMELY rare beholders that never underwent this biological change are know as the 'Unspawned', and are considered 'pure'. Other beholders - even ones of different hives - will defer to them. The best comparison one could make with human cultures is that they are treated like 'Saints'.

Also, just because you find a solitary beholder does not make it 'unspawned' - it just means there are no others like it anywhere nearby (it could even be the only one like it on the planet, but that still would not undo the damage of being originally bred from a spawned bloodline). Normal (spawnblooded) beholders feel it is the duty of the Unspawned to breed as many true beholders as possible, to reinvigorate their race, and possibly even break the 'curse'. The Unspawned, like so many other solitary beholders, don't feel they owe anyone anything, and that the 'inferior' beholders are a stupid breed for having come to such an end. Unspawned would be the only beholders to feel deepsawn are abominations, that need to be destroyed (and that could be a great plothook - imagine your party being hired by a beholder to get that job done). Of course, then that beholder would want to kill the party afterward, because outsiders are never allowed to know Beholder secrets. I'm sure the PCs should be smat enough not to trust a beholder to keep its word.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2017 23:56:41
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redking
Seeker

43 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2017 :  00:20:44  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The below is a reply I did in another topic, but it answers all your questions so I will reproduce it below.

I stumbled on this question while doing my own research on deepspawn. I think it is very clear that deepspawn cannot produce high level NPCs, even if they eat one. Here is the spawning ability text from Lost Empires of Faerun.

Spawn (Ex): A deepspawn is usually encountered with one
to three of its spawn—monsters of CR 4 to 6. Spawn are
fanatically loyal to the deepspawn that spawned them and
willingly fight to the death to defend it. To determine what
kind of spawn accompanies any given deepspawn, roll d% and
consult Table 11–1.

TABLE 11–1: DEEPSPAWN SPAWN
d% Spawn
01–15 Displacer beast (CR 4)
16–30 Minotaur (CR 4)
31–40 Manticore (CR 5)
41–50 Troll (CR 5)
51–60 Digester (CR 6)
61–70 Ettin (CR 6)
71–100 NPC adventurer, level 1d3+3 (see page 110 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide)

A deepspawn can spawn only creatures identical to those
it has physically consumed. Each spawn possesses even
the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and
spells known) of the original but retains only
dim memories of its former life. Only Large or
smaller corporeal, living creatures native to
the Material Plane can be spawned. After
spawning, a deepspawn must wait 4d6
days before doing so again.


That makes it clear to me that the cap on a deepspawn's is CR6, and even if it eats a 20th level sorcerer, the copy will only be CR6 maximum.

Deepspawn are certainly able to make copies over and over of the same creature.

Interestingly, LEoF does provide for advancement for deepspawn.

Advancement: 15–27 HD (Huge); 28–42 HD (Gargantuan)

Here starts some of my personal ideas/realmslore for deepspawn.

You could allow for a slightly more powerful spawning ability for the more advanced. In fact, you could say that at a certain amount of hit dice, they have a different maximum cap for CR. For example, a younger or weaker deepspawn might spawn copies with a lower maximum CR cap, and an older more powerful one a higher maximum CR cap.

Here are deepspawn hitdice and maximum allowable CR next to them.

9 HD -CR3
10HD -CR4
11HD -CR5
13HD -CR6
15HD -CR7
28HD -CR8

Below 9 hit dice the deepspawn is either too young or too weak to make copies, though it can certainly eat now and store the genetic information and brain patterns for spawning copies when it is able to do so. In game terms, it does not have the EX ability to Spawn.

These are maximum caps, not minimum caps. So if an 11HD deepspawn ate a CR1 fighter and chooses to spawn a copy, the copy is also a CR1 fighter. If the 11HD deepspawn eats a CR20 fighter, and chooses to spawn a copy, then the copy will be limited to the CR5 cap that applies to 11HD deepspawn, even though the fighter has 'dim memories' of having been an awesome fighter.

On eating habits of deepspawn

Deepspawn are carnivorous, and prefer fresh, preferably living, meat. To be able to copy a creature in the future, the deepspawn must consume the creature no more than 2 hours after death. Otherwise the meat gives the deepspawn nutrition, but not enough remains to make a viable spawn of that creature in the future.

On the genetic viability of deepspawn spawned copies

A deepspawn spawned copy is a 1:1 match for the creature copied. It is thought that the decline in dwarven fertility in the wake of the spawnwars was due to some genetic defect in the deepspawn copies. In fact, this is not true. The problems arose because of the deepspawn copies, but not because of any innate quality that causes hereditary damage.

The decline in fertility among dwarves is the result of effective inbreeding due to the large numbers spawn clones marrying each other, other dwarves, and given long dwarven life spans, even children of certain spawn copies marrying copies of their fathers, half sisters marrying half brothers, and so on. This event greatly decreased the genetic diversity of dwarves, and consequently decreased fertility and gave rise to congenital birth defects.

On using simulacrum to obtain a perfectly controlled deepspawn

It has been tried many times, but it is widely thought that it is impossible to successfully get a simulacrum deepspawn to produce spawn. Many have tried, almost all have failed. A few however know the secret of how to do it successfully.

Most deepspawn encountered are 14HD (the average adult deepspawn), or less. Exceedinly rare are those more advanced deepspawn. Those who know the secret to creating viable deepspawn simulacra know that a simulacrum of a 14HD deepspawn cannot produce spawn, because the simulacrum will only have 7HD, and deepspawn under 9HD cannot produce spawn at all. Therefore a deepspawn of at least 18HD must be found, and a flesh sample obtained. The more powerful the better. The only problem is that deepspawn of that level of power are exceedingly dangerous. The best strategy is a hit and run. Get in, attack, get the flesh sample, and run!

Once that is done, the simulcrum of the deepspawn creates spawn that are in all respects normal, and can be controlled indirectly through control of the deepspawn simulacrum. The simulacrum knows how to create copies of all the creatures the original deepspawn could.

A simulacrum of a deepspawn still needs to be fed large amounts of meat. Alternatively, magical food could suffice if it is suitable for a carnivore. On a normal day it can eat the equivalent of a days meals for 20 humans. On the day before, during, and day after spawning, the deepspawn needs to be fed the equivalent of a days meals for 50 humans. While this can be expensive, the deepspawn can spawn copies of rare creatures and animals, which can be enriching to the business minded adventurers.

END

Just did that on the fly. Thoughts?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2017 :  01:11:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks good.

I, personally would have made it with HD instead of CR, but you did say this was for 3.5. I probably would have also used 'age categories', like the do with dragons, for the size categories, just to make it more flavorful. That seems to have been the intent in LEoF.

I don't use deepspawn, nor have any plans to, but if I did I would go with this. I never use beholders, either, and now thanks to this thread I am reading through I, Tyrant, just to double-check to see if my HB lore will still work (so far, it does... in fact, its almost complimentary, given their beliefs in a 'true breed').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Dec 2017 01:11:39
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redthe3rd
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2017 :  08:19:38  Show Profile Send redthe3rd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Redking

The problem I have with some of your post is that you base the CR 6 limit as an assumption. No where does it say they are limited to CR6.

Everything following that train of thought, even comments on simulacrum are "homebrew"
Personally I like the detail given and the consideration to how a deepspawn would in actuality work. But there is no RAW to support it.

where did the "eating 2 hours after death" come from?

you also broach something I had not considered and didn't assume or think of... would a simulacrum know all copies of the original deepspawn??? (if you simulacrum a wizard does he have all spells memorized to scribe them in a spell book?)
This of course becomes exactly what Sleyvas mentioned, no learned abilities for copies. they are blank slates but they have any innate creature abilities (genetic abilities) but that is a copy from the deepspawn... so does simulacrum then provide a copy that knows everything that the original did???? I didn't think so. But I've been wrong many times before.


It seems that if we coupled all the restrictions of 2nd edition with all the restrictions of 3rd..

we still have a spawn that could be simulacrumed (is that even a word? Ha)
it (by raw) has no limits on copying other than the ones specifically listed (no HD limit, but size limit, native to prime material plane, no learned or class abilities etc)

So I go back to, making a xerox machine to punch out orc clones to be used as liquid pain batteries ... is all possible by RAW (even with combining the restrictions of 2nd and 3rd)


Edited by - redthe3rd on 06 Dec 2017 08:21:53
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  01:38:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redking

The below is a reply I did in another topic, but it answers all your questions so I will reproduce it below.

I stumbled on this question while doing my own research on deepspawn. I think it is very clear that deepspawn cannot produce high level NPCs, even if they eat one. Here is the spawning ability text from Lost Empires of Faerun.

Spawn (Ex): A deepspawn is usually encountered with one
to three of its spawn—monsters of CR 4 to 6. Spawn are
fanatically loyal to the deepspawn that spawned them and
willingly fight to the death to defend it. To determine what
kind of spawn accompanies any given deepspawn, roll d% and
consult Table 11–1.

TABLE 11–1: DEEPSPAWN SPAWN
d% Spawn
01–15 Displacer beast (CR 4)
16–30 Minotaur (CR 4)
31–40 Manticore (CR 5)
41–50 Troll (CR 5)
51–60 Digester (CR 6)
61–70 Ettin (CR 6)
71–100 NPC adventurer, level 1d3+3 (see page 110 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide)

A deepspawn can spawn only creatures identical to those
it has physically consumed. Each spawn possesses even
the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and
spells known) of the original but retains only
dim memories of its former life. Only Large or
smaller corporeal, living creatures native to
the Material Plane can be spawned. After
spawning, a deepspawn must wait 4d6
days before doing so again.


That makes it clear to me that the cap on a deepspawn's is CR6, and even if it eats a 20th level sorcerer, the copy will only be CR6 maximum.

Deepspawn are certainly able to make copies over and over of the same creature.

Interestingly, LEoF does provide for advancement for deepspawn.

Advancement: 15–27 HD (Huge); 28–42 HD (Gargantuan)

Here starts some of my personal ideas/realmslore for deepspawn.

You could allow for a slightly more powerful spawning ability for the more advanced. In fact, you could say that at a certain amount of hit dice, they have a different maximum cap for CR. For example, a younger or weaker deepspawn might spawn copies with a lower maximum CR cap, and an older more powerful one a higher maximum CR cap.

Here are deepspawn hitdice and maximum allowable CR next to them.

9 HD -CR3
10HD -CR4
11HD -CR5
13HD -CR6
15HD -CR7
28HD -CR8

Below 9 hit dice the deepspawn is either too young or too weak to make copies, though it can certainly eat now and store the genetic information and brain patterns for spawning copies when it is able to do so. In game terms, it does not have the EX ability to Spawn.

These are maximum caps, not minimum caps. So if an 11HD deepspawn ate a CR1 fighter and chooses to spawn a copy, the copy is also a CR1 fighter. If the 11HD deepspawn eats a CR20 fighter, and chooses to spawn a copy, then the copy will be limited to the CR5 cap that applies to 11HD deepspawn, even though the fighter has 'dim memories' of having been an awesome fighter.

On eating habits of deepspawn

Deepspawn are carnivorous, and prefer fresh, preferably living, meat. To be able to copy a creature in the future, the deepspawn must consume the creature no more than 2 hours after death. Otherwise the meat gives the deepspawn nutrition, but not enough remains to make a viable spawn of that creature in the future.

On the genetic viability of deepspawn spawned copies

A deepspawn spawned copy is a 1:1 match for the creature copied. It is thought that the decline in dwarven fertility in the wake of the spawnwars was due to some genetic defect in the deepspawn copies. In fact, this is not true. The problems arose because of the deepspawn copies, but not because of any innate quality that causes hereditary damage.

The decline in fertility among dwarves is the result of effective inbreeding due to the large numbers spawn clones marrying each other, other dwarves, and given long dwarven life spans, even children of certain spawn copies marrying copies of their fathers, half sisters marrying half brothers, and so on. This event greatly decreased the genetic diversity of dwarves, and consequently decreased fertility and gave rise to congenital birth defects.

On using simulacrum to obtain a perfectly controlled deepspawn

It has been tried many times, but it is widely thought that it is impossible to successfully get a simulacrum deepspawn to produce spawn. Many have tried, almost all have failed. A few however know the secret of how to do it successfully.

Most deepspawn encountered are 14HD (the average adult deepspawn), or less. Exceedinly rare are those more advanced deepspawn. Those who know the secret to creating viable deepspawn simulacra know that a simulacrum of a 14HD deepspawn cannot produce spawn, because the simulacrum will only have 7HD, and deepspawn under 9HD cannot produce spawn at all. Therefore a deepspawn of at least 18HD must be found, and a flesh sample obtained. The more powerful the better. The only problem is that deepspawn of that level of power are exceedingly dangerous. The best strategy is a hit and run. Get in, attack, get the flesh sample, and run!

Once that is done, the simulcrum of the deepspawn creates spawn that are in all respects normal, and can be controlled indirectly through control of the deepspawn simulacrum. The simulacrum knows how to create copies of all the creatures the original deepspawn could.

A simulacrum of a deepspawn still needs to be fed large amounts of meat. Alternatively, magical food could suffice if it is suitable for a carnivore. On a normal day it can eat the equivalent of a days meals for 20 humans. On the day before, during, and day after spawning, the deepspawn needs to be fed the equivalent of a days meals for 50 humans. While this can be expensive, the deepspawn can spawn copies of rare creatures and animals, which can be enriching to the business minded adventurers.

END

Just did that on the fly. Thoughts?



Ah, so they did come back and do a somewhat retcon in LEoF. I like the idea of a CR6 maximum. Kind of odd, because what I just wrote up for Peleveran, the largest CR creature that I allowed myself to choose in 5e was CR6 as well (granted, the CR's between editions don't correlate the same).... though I was also having griffins and other less than CR 4 creatures also being made.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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redking
Seeker

43 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2017 :  03:17:15  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redthe3rdThe problem I have with some of your post is that you base the CR 6 limit as an
assumption. No where does it say they are limited to CR6.


Its strongly implied. In the examples only creatures at CR6 maximum were given, and for NPC's with levels, also a maximum of 6 levels. It also tells you the CR range of the creatures that are encountered with the deepspawn. You could have 20th level copies running around in your campaign if you want to, but it is clear why the designers didn't go there.

quote:
Originally posted by redthe3rdTEverything following that train of thought, even comments on simulacrum are "homebrew"
Personally I like the detail given and the consideration to how a deepspawn would in actuality work. But there is no RAW to support it.

where did the "eating 2 hours after death" come from?


The simulacrum of a 'standard deepspawn' would definitely not be able to make copies. The simulacrum spell calls for removing abilities that are not consistent with the lower HD of the simulacrum, and it makes sense to remove the spawning ability. The 2 hours after death thing was to head off the inevitable questions about how long a corpse is viable for copying after death. 24 hours is also fine.

quote:
Originally posted by redthe3rdyou also broach something I had not considered and didn't assume or think of... would a simulacrum know all copies of the original deepspawn??? (if you simulacrum a wizard does he have all spells memorized to scribe them in a spell book?)
This of course becomes exactly what Sleyvas mentioned, no learned abilities for copies. they are blank slates but they have any innate creature abilities (genetic abilities) but that is a copy from the deepspawn... so does simulacrum then provide a copy that knows everything that the original did???? I didn't think so. But I've been wrong many times before.


In 3.5e, it has the class abilities -

"Each spawn possesses even
the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and
spells known) of the original but retains only
dim memories of its former life."

It doesn't know everything the original knew because it only has vague memories. But in terms of mechanical things, it has them, up to the limits implied in the text for the spawning ability.

quote:
Originally posted by redthe3rdwe still have a spawn that could be simulacrumed (is that even a word? Ha)
it (by raw) has no limits on copying other than the ones specifically listed (no HD limit, but size limit, native to prime material plane, no learned or class abilities etc)


By RAW they are "monsters of CR 4 to 6".

Edited by - redking on 09 Dec 2017 03:18:47
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