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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 15:21:53
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I'm confused - I never said there weren't NPC adventurers, only that ONLY player characters get the 4D6, NOT NPCs.
I just re-read that - that quote is right out of the book (I'm assuming). You're never supposed to use the better dice rolling method for NPCs. I guess my confusion from reading that quote from that 2e source was that by 'adventurer' they meant PC, because when that was written, the word 'adventurer' almost always meant 'PC' (in an RPG), and thats how I read it. And anything but 3d6 - even for PCs - was non-standard. In 5e, it specifically says to use 4d6 for everyone?* 
I mean, its your world, so you can do whatever you want, but I've never heard of anyone doing that. And if its a 'special' NPC, then you should probably just be assigning stats, not rolling them.
All that being said, I've been using a 2d6+6 method for PCs for quite some time now (since at least the mid 90's). PCs are supposed to be 'larger than life' - thats why they go out adventuring. Its like they've been 'blessed by the gods', or some-such. In fact, now that I've thought about it (in terms of FR), and from listening to some of the things Ed has said about his home games, I would imagine Ed felt pretty much the same way. There are 'normal people', and then there are those 'the gods find interesting'.
*EDIT: I forget sometimes that a lot of today's players came around after 1e/2e, which may also be causing confusion. Back in those early days, NPCs got 'stat blocks', they weren't treated like PCs at all. They could even have abilities PCs could not (like crafting magic items). For better or worse, 3e change all that and made all NPCs into DMPCs (which put a LOT of work on the DM, because NPCs needed full write-ups, rather than stat-blocks). Didn't they go back to that? In 4e, I mean? (and I guess 5e.) I loved 3rd edition, but between that and all the splat books (and PrCs), they made Dming way too hard. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2016 15:42:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 17:25:47
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ah, yes, true if non-adventurers are assumed to use just 3d6 then things are calculated according to that 2e version.
On adventurers being "mini walking dungeons" and people camping the entrances.... not so sure of the camping entrances, unless its something brand new and therefore drawing groups constantly. I see them more camping out in towns where adventurers will go to spend their gains and/or seek new adventures. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 02:03:59
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I think if done right (and by that inserted into the story in a way that makes sense), resurrection can work. Fflar Starbow, for example. It depends on if the soul wants to be resurrected, of course. Fflar was in Arvandor, so it wasn't like he was in a bad place, but he obviously had some life regrets, and was willing to come back. There was a certain resurrection in EO that could have gone really well, but then that person got the short end of the stick...
On a personal level, I'm always happy to see favorite characters brought back lol, but that's just me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 06:58:47
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Good evening Learned Scribe KanzenAU,
I hope this response finds you well! I may have accidentally overlooked some discussion points from other Lore Seekers of the Library, so pardon my redundancy if indeed I have done so here with my reply. Even though I am myself an economist and marketer, I wish to take a soft science approach that I feel may be interesting (at least I hope it is).
I begin by stating an assumption in reading your question that those with means (nobles, and others with means) would be more capable in attaining a resurrection. With that assumption made, I feel the most valuable and overarching question most fruitful to answer is: what would the gods net in return by allowing for such occurrences on a regular basis?
Since the Forgotten Realms utilizes a Pantheonic system, it stands to reason that there are many competing reasons why certain gods would and would not want desire such practices. Afterall, the gods are the gatekeepers of such magic to be used through conduits of their faith, and as we know by referencing actions of individuals such as Cadderly Bonaduce, the rules are set by those gatekeepers. Knowing that any god will have their own reasons for allowing such magic to be used, ethical viewpoints, teleological/deontological/utilitarianism, as well as the economics of worship, assigns the allowance of access to such magic predicated on the ROI (Return on Investment) of the practice itself.
In terms of the ethical practices, you may have worshipers of Waukeen taking an approach that kills two birds with one stone, in terms of dogma and ethos.
Teleologically speaking, the clergy of Waukeen may find themselves furthering the ethos of Waukeen by increasing cash flow in a local economy by allowing resurrections to occur without consideration to the effects of what that might mean to established order, laws, etc., i.e. the Obarskyr family of Cormyr. In that case, the ends justify the means.
As far as the economical reality may play out, again regarding the religion of Waukeen, one might see a local temple of the Merchant's Friend effectively pulling a Wal-Mart against other gods. They could undercut prices in a "red hot sale" to drive competition out of the market place with the intention of vastly increasing market share and monopolizing on the weakened emotional state of the common man, and effectively gaining a monopoly.
This one example of the religion of Waukeen I feel demonstrates that the approach to resurrection in the Realms shouldn't be looked at through just the mechanical, or demographic (as I know both have been pointed out, and correctly so) lens. Other disciplines such as politics, culture, belief systems, and economics as fields of study and policy are likely more powerful influences both as a matter of practice, as well as the name of the game...roleplaying.
I'm really glad you posted about this topic. It is such a fascinating question that I think often has a black and white approach to solving.
Best regards!
Robert McDonell
High Atlar
Spirit Soaring
[quote]Originally posted by KanzenAU
First off, my question: how do people in the Realms feel about resurrection?
I'm about halfway through reading City of Splendors, and there's a prominent, wealthy young nobleman with plenty of friends with coin that dies, but resurrection is never brought up as an option. It would seem to me that surely his friends or family would be willing to find a willing priest who has sufficient enough favour with his or her deity to be able to cast Raise Dead, and fork out the dragons for said priest to trouble themselves (or even perform a significant quest if a donation to the temple didn't cut it).
This is far from the first time this has come up in an FR novel that I've read, and they never seem to give a good reason for it that satisfies me.
Reasons could include (and by no means are limited to):
- Refusal: the afterlife is actually awesome, no one wants to come back
- Superstition: people are afraid to trouble the gods
- Demanding gods: the gods demanding either too great a quest to be worth people bringing back a friend, or alternatively placing demands on those they resurrect
- Diamond shortage: 5e rules require diamonds for resurrection - maybe they're a lot rarer in FR (unlikely by Volo's Guide to All Things Magical)
I have mostly explained it to myself and players thus far as a combination of the first two: people preferring to see death as a natural event, the afterlife as a favourable existence, and not wanting to trouble the gods on their behalf for fear of angering them. However, in some cases this doesn't feel like enough, and I was wondering if there's ever been any attempt in the canon to further explain this.
Have there ever been any canon reasons that people don't resurrect each other more frequently, most especially the wealthy and prosperous?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 17:38:35
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| btw how does ressurection solve the problem of age? I have always presumed that it marely make body whole and healthy and bring back the soul but Fflar should be already dead by old age right? Isn't that supposed to be a place for miracle? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 19:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
btw how does ressurection solve the problem of age? I have always presumed that it marely make body whole and healthy and bring back the soul but Fflar should be already dead by old age right? Isn't that supposed to be a place for miracle?
He died fighting Aulmpiter in one of the final battles of the Fall of Myth Drannor. So old age did not get him. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 12:59:10
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so you are fine with that when you die in 50 and get ressurected 50 years later you are still physicaly at 50 years...
I have used version that those spells return body to its PROPER state including age. One of my NPC wizard got his soul trapped and he had to resort to lichdom after his cloned body (spell) turned into dust in the end of the proccess. I would use the same principle to ressurection and also for me soul should not be available after few hundred years anyway. It severaly limits options for those spells but also guards the timeline for me :-) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 16:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
so you are fine with that when you die in 50 and get ressurected 50 years later you are still physicaly at 50 years...
I have used version that those spells return body to its PROPER state including age. One of my NPC wizard got his soul trapped and he had to resort to lichdom after his cloned body (spell) turned into dust in the end of the proccess. I would use the same principle to ressurection and also for me soul should not be available after few hundred years anyway. It severaly limits options for those spells but also guards the timeline for me :-)
What use is the spell if it doesn't return you to a state of health?
And why would a body that was obliterated -- as Fflar's was -- continue to age?
The intent of the spell is to bring someone back to life in a viable state. Doing anything other than that subverts the intent of the spell and renders a high-level spell nearly useless.
It's like respawning at a save point in a video game, the way I see it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 17:42:15
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| Agree with Wooly. Kind of like how the soul takes on the appearance of the person at their prime (unless they died young), the spell would...reflect that, so to speak. No point in returning an old man to life if he is still going to be an old man. That doesn't solve the problem, because he would just die again. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 22:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Agree with Wooly. Kind of like how the soul takes on the appearance of the person at their prime (unless they died young), the spell would...reflect that, so to speak. No point in returning an old man to life if he is still going to be an old man. That doesn't solve the problem, because he would just die again.
So for you it not only restores person to age he was but even renew him into his prime physical state in life? That is some mighty magic compared to some other 9th level spells...
I agree with Wooly that it should serve as sort of Save Game spell but only in the same time period and not reversing age. Trouble comes only if you strech it's purpose and revive somebody dead for decade... I say his body will be older and he will not have absolutely clear memory of his life previous to his dead and none about missed time (rules wise it is described as lost levels).
BTW how about scars? do they disappear too when ressurected as they are still a injury? or broken and badly healed bone years back before death? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 22:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Agree with Wooly. Kind of like how the soul takes on the appearance of the person at their prime (unless they died young), the spell would...reflect that, so to speak. No point in returning an old man to life if he is still going to be an old man. That doesn't solve the problem, because he would just die again.
So for you it not only restores person to age he was but even renew him into his prime physical state in life? That is some mighty magic compared to some other 9th level spells...
I agree with Wooly that it should serve as sort of Save Game spell but only in the same time period and not reversing age. Trouble comes only if you strech it's purpose and revive somebody dead for decade... I say his body will be older and he will not have absolutely clear memory of his life previous to his dead and none about missed time (rules wise it is described as lost levels).
BTW how about scars? do they disappear too when ressurected as they are still a injury? or broken and badly healed bone years back before death?
I wouldn't say "for me", but that's the evidence I have seen. It's what happens when resurrection is used, both in FR and other fantasy (I was not factoring in mechanics or spell level).
I am not certain about scars, to be honest. I haven't seen that many resurrection cases, I am just going by what I HAVE seen. Like I said, the spell would likely restore them to their prime, so if they had suffered a prior injury, and have a scar, then it is possible that scar would be there. Then again, it is equally possible the scar is gone. It could go either way, and those details can be left up to the writer or players, unless those details are explicitly stated in the spell description.
If memory serves, again based on the resurrection cases I have read about (both in FR and in other works), sometimes there are scars, and sometimes there aren't. Again, I fully admit I have not read that many resurrection cases, and I am specifically going by what I have seen in novels, not game rules or mechanics. I'd have to look to see if any of the source books I do own saw anything about resurrection spells. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 00:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Agree with Wooly. Kind of like how the soul takes on the appearance of the person at their prime (unless they died young), the spell would...reflect that, so to speak. No point in returning an old man to life if he is still going to be an old man. That doesn't solve the problem, because he would just die again.
So for you it not only restores person to age he was but even renew him into his prime physical state in life? That is some mighty magic compared to some other 9th level spells...
I agree with Wooly that it should serve as sort of Save Game spell but only in the same time period and not reversing age. Trouble comes only if you strech it's purpose and revive somebody dead for decade... I say his body will be older and he will not have absolutely clear memory of his life previous to his dead and none about missed time (rules wise it is described as lost levels).
BTW how about scars? do they disappear too when ressurected as they are still a injury? or broken and badly healed bone years back before death?
Good point on the scars and resetting of bones, etc.... for a badly damaged burn victim, resurrection could be very nice. That being said, there's nothing that says a heal spell also wouldn't clear up scars (and has been debated in the past). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 00:14:55
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| Good point. If it is a bad enough injury (like bad burns), those wounds would most likely be repaired in resurrection. I was thinking minor injuries (scars) may or may not be left. But major injuries would be healed, otherwise, again, what is the point? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Oct 2016 00:18:51 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 00:15:01
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Resurrection can be used when a body is destroyed. This means that it is a magic that provides physical life and form for an existing spirit. Why would one provide a feeble old body if the intent is to restore the subject to life - just so they can die of old age again in a month or two?
As for stories of resurrection in novels, there are not very many. In fact, most times it has been treated as beyond the ability of even the high priests (as the deaths in the Knights of Myth Drannor series). Aside from Flarr - which was a miracle by rule and by the text of the story - because he had been dead for too many years, most of the resurrections in the realms novels have been of Elminster. Over and over he is res'd by Mystra.
That said, I like to think that the unwritten epilogue of every useless death in a FR novel is comprised of some high priest or someone with a rod of resurrection coming along to restore all our favorite deceased to the realms, silently and unknown to their enemies. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 15:16:44
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Lets say there is an old man a survivor from burned city when he was young. He is badly scarred all over hs body and partialy crippled - a small miracle that he survived that. Due to his condition nobody wanted to employ him until he run into a traveling theatre troup of bards who took him in and he was part of many succesful shows in his life. Then he unfortunately drinks a cup of poisoned wine instead of local noble who feel obligated to raise him. He goes to close big city and pledge the high priest for this spell. As a good priest he agrees and perform it on the corpse. Now there stands a new young handsome man who do not know what he should do with his life. Noble that helped him is happy to provide a place for him but after some time suggest that he should go his own way. His old troup do not know what to do with him as they need a cripple for their show and also he is too young for them and there is also some envy (especialy from ladies)...
Is this a blessing or not? Why should god meddle this much into life of someone when all they wanted was to be live again...
In my version he would raise as the same old man he was and lived the rest of his life as he was used to be praying to god that allowed for such miracle.
I do agree it is good to keep true to canon lore but once it get out of senses I try to keep the spirit not the words as there is so much to keep in mind to make a fantasy realm and nobody is perfect or they haven't even thought about it at that time. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 17:26:20
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| I think there has to be an element of willingness, too. If the spirit doesn't want to return to life, the spell isn't going to work. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 18:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Lets say there is an old man a survivor from burned city when he was young. He is badly scarred all over hs body and partialy crippled - a small miracle that he survived that. Due to his condition nobody wanted to employ him until he run into a traveling theatre troup of bards who took him in and he was part of many succesful shows in his life. Then he unfortunately drinks a cup of poisoned wine instead of local noble who feel obligated to raise him. He goes to close big city and pledge the high priest for this spell. As a good priest he agrees and perform it on the corpse. Now there stands a new young handsome man who do not know what he should do with his life. Noble that helped him is happy to provide a place for him but after some time suggest that he should go his own way. His old troup do not know what to do with him as they need a cripple for their show and also he is too young for them and there is also some envy (especialy from ladies)...
Is this a blessing or not? Why should god meddle this much into life of someone when all they wanted was to be live again...
In my version he would raise as the same old man he was and lived the rest of his life as he was used to be praying to god that allowed for such miracle.
I do agree it is good to keep true to canon lore but once it get out of senses I try to keep the spirit not the words as there is so much to keep in mind to make a fantasy realm and nobody is perfect or they haven't even thought about it at that time.
If all you want to do is raise the dead, then resurrection is not required. There are half a dozen other options that can be cast by clerics and wizards of lower levels. Resurrection is only achieved through the resurrection spell or a wish spell - though that has some possible side effects. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 00:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I can think of a few instances in the novels where a character suggests "let's get a priest and raise them" and then another character says "no, it was her last wish that she remain dead" and they just let it go. I think the default for a person who dies an unnatural death (murder especially!) would be to get them raised if there is means to do so available; but a naturally caused death or suicide should remain dead baring a rule like the royal lineage.
In the novels of course, I think one must take contrivance and artistic license and treat deaths sometimes just like they are on earth, irreversible tragedies.
Several FR authors have commented that they're careful to avoid reviving the dead. It cheapens the "ultimate" sacrifices made by their heroes, it cheapens the dangers and risks the heroes face, it makes their heroic accomplishments less meaningful. Aw crap, got zorched by dragonbreath - second time this month, grrr - but thanx for the resurrection guys, let's go try it again!
(Though of course it's fair play for the worthiest of bad guys to routinely cheat death or resurrect themselves, lol, because apparently such "cheap" tactics are expected from such immoral, unethical, villainous folk.)
I recall at least one instance in the novels where an assassin applied extraordinary physical and magical measures to ensure a victim remained irrevocably dead, even summoning a kind of spirit creature to inhabit the corpse long enough that speak with dead spells would falsely accuse someone else of the murder.
I think the greatest limitation on raise dead and resurrection magics is the maximum length of time the body can be deceased. Measured in just days, perhaps at most a few weeks. And of course the original cause(s) of death must be remedied and the vital components of the corpse must be fully intact if one actually expects the revived body to stay alive - this can be impossible if the body has been disintegrated, burnt to ash upon a pyre, deliberately dismembered or defiled, or been digested by a monster (good luck recovering your friend's head from a dragon's stomach or enough of him worth bothering to save after the trolls have feasted).
Game-breaking magics like wish could recover any dead character from any fate. Unless opposed by even greater magics.
I note that AD&D1E had a 1st-level priest spell called ceremony, one of the most universal and easiest ceremonies to perform was called eternal rest, and casting it would guarantee the deceased's soul safe and quick passage to whichever afterlife destination it was going (an agent of the deity would personally guide and protect the soul until arrival, mostly intended to prevent the dead recipient from ever becoming an undead). It seems odd to me that such an important yet simple little ceremony as this has never been described in any Realmslore, Faerunian religion, or FR novel.
The souls/spirits of dead humans in the Realms typically go to the Fugue, where they usually remain for a time (days or weeks) before being claimed by their deity (and taken to their eternal afterlives in other planar realms) or to be judged Faithless (and stuffed into the Wall). The few adventure modules and novels set in the Fugue that I'm familiar with have all made mention of a few special dead spirits being recalled back to the world of the living.
Not all adventuring parties are inclined towards recovering their dead. I've seen (and been in) groups where the PCs opportunistically plunder their fallen-comrade's loot - after all, another replacement will inevitably arrive, bringing to the party even more loot! A resurrection magic imposes permanent penalties on the subject, lesser magics are even worse, and many players simply refuse to accept such penalties. Some adventurers are evil. Some adventurers have religions which strongly disincline them from being brought back to life (especially when they die in service to the religion). Other adventurers have issues with religions which strongly disincline the clerics from attending them (especially when they die at the hands of those in service of the religion). Most PCs simply cannot afford a resurrection at lower levels and aren't willing to reverse-mortgage their castles or undertake fanatical religious quests just to pay for a replaceable fool's mistakes at higher levels. But I've seen many parties equipped with limitless gold, items like a rod of resurrection, or the chuckling local 99th-level NPC cleric willing to instantly remedy their deadly ills at no real cost. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2016 00:41:31 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 02:56:13
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If memory serves, resurrection is limited to 10 years per level of the priest... so pretty much anyone you want. The only example i know of from a longer ago time is Fflar... and that I assume involved divine intervention.
As far as PCs, I think it is usually a bad idea to resurrect at anything under 9th level for numerous reasons - mostly because of the expense to other characters. Why blow your entire amassed fortune on resurrecting someone when the local adventurer's guild is likely to have a suitable replacement? The only exception to this are those adventures that are deliberately so dangerous it is assumed that 1 or more PCs will die and so have a plot piece explaining a return to life (there are about 20 of these in the printed adventures alone).
I think by far the better option is the use of Succor magics, that allow a beaten party to instantly retreat and then either set out again to try their luck or decide that their foe is beyond their abilities. As a player this was always my first request when asked if their was anything a powerful sponsor could provide to assist. Also, knowing you have this ace in the hole makes players less apt to waste their other magic/wealth in desperation - which in turn makes it simpler to limit how much magi is available. If you need to empty a wand every adventure just to survive then wands are far less valuable, for example. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 04:49:40
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As far as the current resurrection rules go in 5e, resurrection (castable at 13th level) is limited to 100 years. True resurrection (castable at 17th level) is limited to 200 years. I think under any ruleset it can be assumed that the case of Fflar involves divine aid beyond the spell.
Neither spell allows for resurrection if the individual died of "old age". I take this to mean that resurrection does NOT restore age, and therefore doesn't resurrect someone to their "fittest form". I don't see how that would be judged in any case: the 60 year old human with a vast range of experience is more "fit for life" in terms of knowledge than the well muscled 25 year old, but it's something that could be argued. I have never interpreted any raising of the dead as restoring them beyond the age they died at, and I don't think it works that way. In D&D that is, anything goes for individual settings and campaigns. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Oct 2016 06:09:24 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 19:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I note that AD&D1E had a 1st-level priest spell called ceremony, one of the most universal and easiest ceremonies to perform was called eternal rest, and casting it would guarantee the deceased's soul safe and quick passage to whichever afterlife destination it was going (an agent of the deity would personally guide and protect the soul until arrival, mostly intended to prevent the dead recipient from ever becoming an undead). It seems odd to me that such an important yet simple little ceremony as this has never been described in any Realmslore, Faerunian religion, or FR novel.
Jergal's priests are described to use sealing ritual that protects the body from being raised as undead. |
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Resurrection in FR
