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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 12:55:09
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Anyone know if there have been any old dwarf kingdoms around the area of the Western Heartlands? Want to make a dwarf from this region, and it would be really cool to tie it to an ancient realm, but I've not seen much lore for dwarves here.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:04:18
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Dozens.
Hopefully Krash or Eric Boyb will be along shortly - they could probably name them all. The only one that immediately jumps to my mind is Delzoun (which, in human terms, would be more of an 'empire', because it comprised several kingdoms, and spanned much of The North). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 13:04:49 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:14:56
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| But, looking at the -626 DR map of Lost Empires of Faerun, it shows Delzoun to be placed where the Silver Marches are. |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Nov 2014 13:18:06 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:35:31
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Yes, that was its 'core', but there were dozens of smaller kingdoms all around it - which area in particular were you looking for? I know of a few. You want the coast? There was the Fallen kingdom (Dardath, which was part of the ever-changing Illefarn), or my personal favorite - the bat-s*** crazy seafaring Haunghdannar.
High Forest region? Ammarindar in the Grey Peaks, or Besilmer, which built some of the bridges and other ruins.
Others in-between, like the legendary Ironstar dwarves, or Gharraghaur, which was west of Delzoun and centered around Mirabar.
Lots and lots of them - it all depends on what you are looking for. Also, many clans, which were part of various kingdoms (not sure, for example, if the Ironstars ever had their own kingdoms - just 'holds').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 13:35:59 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:52:39
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Was looking for something not that far away from Baldur's Gate. Oghrann is a little bit distant, but I remember some interesting lore about it, might consider that.
Ah didn't know much about the sea-faring Haunghdannar, guess they are the forefathers of dwarves of Rethgaard in the isle Axard. Very cool.
Didn't know about Dardath, or Duchy of Hunnabar, might need to look into them. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:57:45
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Baldur's Gate is rough - it falls-out between the Delzoun-ruled Northern kingdoms, and the Shanatar-ruled Southern ones. The nearest group to there would be whoever built the ruined 'Moorsedge keeps' around the southern end of The High Moor (and I think that would have been the dwarves of Dardath, as part of the many kingdoms of Illefarn, but I could easily be wrong).
That region has a long history of 'scaley kind' instead, going ALL the way back, so dwarves probably avoided most of that central band there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 13:58:02 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 14:07:32
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| What about the dwarves that built Durlag's Tower? Was Durlag Trollkiller a lone adventurer dwarf? Or did he come from a nearby dwarf realm? |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Nov 2014 14:07:55 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 14:30:59
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Dwarves usually like mountains. There are no mountains near Baldur's Gate. In simple terms, I can't really see a "classic" dwarven kingdom existing in the Western Heartlands.
I'm intrigued as to why you would want to make a dwarf from the Western Heartlands. Can't see the inspiration for that myself. There would certainly be dwarf holds in the mountains north of Amn and in days gone by, the possibility of a small dwarven realm there, but that's about it I think.
That doesn't stop you from putting a dwarves kingdom in the Western Heartlands, but there's no existing realmslore to build off in that regard.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 25 Nov 2014 14:31:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 14:34:13
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I think he was a loner. I'm not sure it ever mentions where he hailed from.
On the other hand, there is a mountain right next to the city itself, and if dwarves were going to live anywhere in that region, it would have been there. There may even already be some 4e/5e lore on a clan there.
WotC has apparently changed some of its policies, and now artists can sell FR maps on their own, which sadly means FR cartographers will no longer be posting Usable versions of their maps on their sites or elsewhere. Once again, the internet gets a little less useful. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 14:34:47 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 15:03:25
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The major migrations of dwarves largely bypassed the Baldur's Gate region, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a small dwarfhold somewhere along the coast.
In broad strokes, the major migration was westward from the Great Rift to Shanatar leading to the establishment of shield dwarves a seperate subrace.
High and Deep Shanatar encompassed the lands and Underdark of Calimshan, Tethyr, and Amn. From there, the next wave went northwards to found Oghrann and Haunghandaar (sp?). From Oghrann, they went north to found Gharraghaur. From Gharraghaur, they went east to found Delzoun and southeast to found Besilmer. From Besilmer they went east to found Ammardinar. After the fall of Delzoun, they went south to found Dardath (Forlorn Hills), which in turn led to the founding of Hunnabar (mostly under Dragonspear Castle).
If you really want a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate, i would make them a northern outpost of the Shanataran kingdom that was under Amn or a western outpost of Oghrann from that era, or a southern outpost of Hunnabar from that era.
But, I agree with previous posters that there's no known lore to suggest there was a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 15:11:23
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Oh I completely overlooked the Cloud Peaks. Xothaerin used to exist beneath there, one of the kingdoms of the Shanatar Empire.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dwarves usually like mountains. There are no mountains near Baldur's Gate. In simple terms, I can't really see a "classic" dwarven kingdom existing in the Western Heartlands.
I'm intrigued as to why you would want to make a dwarf from the Western Heartlands. Can't see the inspiration for that myself. There would certainly be dwarf holds in the mountains north of Amn and in days gone by, the possibility of a small dwarven realm there, but that's about it I think.
That doesn't stop you from putting a dwarves kingdom in the Western Heartlands, but there's no existing realmslore to build off in that regard.
-- George Krashos
It's for a campaign I'm that's set around Baldur's Gate. It just would be really awesome to have a late subplot such as helping restore a dwarf kingdom. I love stories like that. Want more demihuman realms. 
And yeah I suppose I should have figured this out by the lack of mountains in the Western Heartlands. But I was hoping maybe there may have been some Underdark dwarf realms, like Iltkazar beneath Tethyr for example.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
The major migrations of dwarves largely bypassed the Baldur's Gate region, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a small dwarfhold somewhere along the coast.
In broad strokes, the major migration was westward from the Great Rift to Shanatar leading to the establishment of shield dwarves a seperate subrace.
High and Deep Shanatar encompassed the lands and Underdark of Calimshan, Tethyr, and Amn. From there, the next wave went northwards to found Oghrann and Haunghandaar (sp?). From Oghrann, they went north to found Gharraghaur. From Gharraghaur, they went east to found Delzoun and southeast to found Besilmer. From Besilmer they went east to found Ammardinar. After the fall of Delzoun, they went south to found Dardath (Forlorn Hills), which in turn led to the founding of Hunnabar (mostly under Dragonspear Castle).
If you really want a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate, i would make them a northern outpost of the Shanataran kingdom that was under Amn or a western outpost of Oghrann from that era, or a southern outpost of Hunnabar from that era.
But, I agree with previous posters that there's no known lore to suggest there was a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate.
--Eric
Awesome! Thanks, this helps give a clearer picture of when and where the dwarf realms are.
But thanks very much for the responses and suggestions, Eric L Boyd, George Krashos, Markustay, Dazzlerdal. Really appreciate it. This is what makes Candlekeep awesome.  |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Nov 2014 15:16:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 20:23:58
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The map I linked to earlier is from Murder in Baldur's Gate, and shows a large hill right next to the city. One might suppose it was jealous of Waterdeep's Mountain and they decided to get their own... but that wouldn't be very realistic. 
So, we can assume the mountain was always there (ignoring the 4e 'swapping of terrain' stuff), and then could easily speculate that a clan/family of dwarves from Oghrann settled there during that kingdom's brief existence (expanding their frontier), and after its fall, some survivors may have gone there to settle as well.
I know if I had a perfectly good mountain right next to a city, I'd definitely throw some dwarves and gnomes (and maybe Hin) in it. Then - FR being what it is - I'd have 'deeper, more ancient caverns' below that, with all sorts of nastiness that the underfolk (those dwarves, gnomes, & Hin) don't like to talk about... or think about.
I just checked... hmmmm... its seems Baldur's Gate has a large dwarven community (they have a large community of everything), but they seem to live in that part of the city furthest from the hill. Go figure. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 20:24:37 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 21:02:33
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Maybe they live far from the hill because of what is under it. Maybe they would LOVE to live under the hill, but something nasty won't let them.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 21:15:50
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If you're looking for an unusual PC race, you might check out the azerbloods in Dragon #350. They could easily be "passing as a dwarf in Baldur's Gate".
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 21:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
If you're looking for an unusual PC race, you might check out the azerbloods in Dragon #350. They could easily be "passing as a dwarf in Baldur's Gate".
--Eric
Still one of my fave Dragon articles; one of the few that I liked enough to transcribe in Word. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 08:42:22
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| Or maybe these are not "typical" dwarves? If there's nothing in the canon then how about thinking outside the box? In my game I created a clan of dwarves whom are all outcasts, misfits, and self-exiles because they cannot conform to typical dwarven societies and proclivities. They are not interested in dwelling underground, mining the earth/toril(?), and working a forge. These dwarves dig to cultivate the land, work with lumbers and cloth, paint murals, sing ballads in the styles of other cultures, and dance barefoot beneath the open sky. The clan is bound to each other by commonality of interests instead of blood or oath and are much more open with other peoples because new trends learned allow them to adapt their wares/services to new trends. Instead of a kingdom of dwarves you could have had a series of farmsteads, ranches, and a rural center of thorp to village size that is all claimed land which once existed and the claims are still legally binding. Restoration of the land could be a godsend for dwarven nations that lost the relief valve for their malcontents. Works of art, devices of cunning utility, and lore of lost agricultural practices would yield new riches that gold coins and polished minerals can't provide to societies like nearby Baldurs Gate. It may not be canon but if you like the idea then running it by your DM doesn't hurt. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 09:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
The major migrations of dwarves largely bypassed the Baldur's Gate region, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a small dwarfhold somewhere along the coast.
In broad strokes, the major migration was westward from the Great Rift to Shanatar leading to the establishment of shield dwarves a seperate subrace.
High and Deep Shanatar encompassed the lands and Underdark of Calimshan, Tethyr, and Amn. From there, the next wave went northwards to found Oghrann and Haunghandaar (sp?). From Oghrann, they went north to found Gharraghaur. From Gharraghaur, they went east to found Delzoun and southeast to found Besilmer. From Besilmer they went east to found Ammardinar. After the fall of Delzoun, they went south to found Dardath (Forlorn Hills), which in turn led to the founding of Hunnabar (mostly under Dragonspear Castle).
If you really want a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate, i would make them a northern outpost of the Shanataran kingdom that was under Amn or a western outpost of Oghrann from that era, or a southern outpost of Hunnabar from that era.
But, I agree with previous posters that there's no known lore to suggest there was a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate.
--Eric
Brilliant mapping out of the dwarven diaspora from Shanatar, Eric.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 16:10:16
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Following the lead of the great scholar, Krashos Morueme. ;-)
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
The major migrations of dwarves largely bypassed the Baldur's Gate region, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a small dwarfhold somewhere along the coast.
In broad strokes, the major migration was westward from the Great Rift to Shanatar leading to the establishment of shield dwarves a seperate subrace.
High and Deep Shanatar encompassed the lands and Underdark of Calimshan, Tethyr, and Amn. From there, the next wave went northwards to found Oghrann and Haunghandaar (sp?). From Oghrann, they went north to found Gharraghaur. From Gharraghaur, they went east to found Delzoun and southeast to found Besilmer. From Besilmer they went east to found Ammardinar. After the fall of Delzoun, they went south to found Dardath (Forlorn Hills), which in turn led to the founding of Hunnabar (mostly under Dragonspear Castle).
If you really want a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate, i would make them a northern outpost of the Shanataran kingdom that was under Amn or a western outpost of Oghrann from that era, or a southern outpost of Hunnabar from that era.
But, I agree with previous posters that there's no known lore to suggest there was a dwarfhold near Baldur's Gate.
--Eric
Brilliant mapping out of the dwarven diaspora from Shanatar, Eric.
-- George Krashos
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2014 : 23:27:15
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| The Orothiar had a Clanhold under the Cloakwood just by Baldur's Gate. You can take inspiration from Yeslick from the crpg for your toon and you can see their clan symbol in Dwarves Deep. |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2014 : 16:34:34
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Not to be a canon Nazi, but is the Clan Orothiar presence in the Cloakwood mentioned in the Baldur's Gate novel? If not, then the computer game information in isolation isn't considered to be "canon" as I recall. I don't have a problem with that clan being there, but just point out that its presence there isn't rock solid.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2014 : 16:38:07
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| Threads like this is why I love Candlekeep... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2014 : 17:41:08
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I don't think the novels even mention Yeslick, poor as they are.
I say keep the Orothiar presence in W Heartlands and in Damara. No reason for them to stay put - one part of the clan is here, the other part, or maybe just a family, an offshoot, is there. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Dwarves in Western Heartlands
