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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 11:38:48
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So, i was searching for informations on armies strenght for the eastern Realms, old empires and Kara-Tur and i went on checking in Power of Faerun because i remembered it had a section on armies and war.
I had a big "What the Nine Hells?!?!?" moment on the sidebar of page 28, under the Untheric Crusade headline it says that in early 1374 (no mention in the GHotR, already checked) two events were turning the tide of the Mulhorandi invasion: the first (and expected one) is the intervention of the Banites of Mourktar (backed by Red wizard magical aid), the second (the one responsible for the WTNH?!? moment) is the reappearance of the whole population of Shussel in the form of elite aasimar warriors united in the Legion of Nanna-Sin ... ?!?
It says that all those that disappeared in the Vanishing of 1370 are now members of this Legion but it doesn't says the exact number. The problem here is that between Old Empires and 3e i wasn't able to find any other population figure for Shussel, furthermore all the population figures for all the cities in Old Empires were doubled or more in the 3e FR Setting book. So if we go by the OE numbers, we double the one for Shussel before the Venishing, and we say that all the nine thousands listed in the 3e Setting book were those unaffected by the Vanishing, we end up with forty thousands (40000!!!!) elite aasimar warriors wanting payback on the Mulhorandi ...
The invading army numbered twenty thousands so i think it's fair to say that without the Spellplague mumbo-jumbo (heck even well before, like in 1376) Unther should have been free and become some kind of Selunite theocracy (the sidebar states Selune was involved). They could've probably annexed parts of Chessenta and Mulhorand if they wanted to (but i don't think they would, we are talking about good Selunite crusaders after all).
Anyway, i was kind of shocked about this revelation and i'm still trying to find a way to put it in my home Realms campaign without breaking everything (i mean, forty thousands angry crusaders can wreak havoc wherever they want).
What about you, fellow scribes? Was this widely known? Anyone was running a campaign and used the Legion of Nanna-Sin? I believe Icelander had a campaign during the Unther-Mulhorand war but i can't remember if he/she is still active and my search fu is weak and i can't find his/her insightful threads.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 11:53:27
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As you said, we are not given specific numbers on the Legion. We do not know how many people really were in Shussel when it vanished. It could have been that when the war with Mulhorand started, people fled Shussel further inland, soldiers being drafted into the army and moved to the frontlines. That all takes a drain on the populace.
Let us assume we do have indeed a large number of those aasimar, that would indeed mean they can cut the land forces operating in northern Unther off from their supply lines over land from Mulhorand, that meaning they have to either rely on shipping supplies which can become targets of pirates in service to Mourktar or fall victim to natural events like storms for example, or the mulhorandi will attempt to reopen a road across land to supply their troops. In the end the reappearance means a bigger impact on the mulhorandi forces and i wouldn´t rule it out that it forced Mulhorand to muster additional troops to meet the problem, maybe even pulling some from the north to attempt a break out of the threatening encirclement of the aasimar and the untheri defenders now backed by banite troops and magical aid from Thay. Yet again we do not know on what troops Mulhorand really could call on so all we can do is guess. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 13:33:34
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The Vanishing of Shussel-folk happens in 1370, Mulhorand invades Unther in 1371 so we can rule out war-related effects in judging the population.
Still the following point stands:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Yet again we do not know on what troops Mulhorand really could call on so all we can do is guess.
That was what i was searching for when i stumbled on the Legion of Nanna-Sin lore. For an empire of over 5 milion people to have only twenty thousand troops doesn't sound right, yet various sources state that Mulhorand relies on mercenaries and has no standing army, which is a puzzling statement for me.
Anyway, the Legion has easily thousands of soldiers, add to that the Banites (with the Red Wizards magical aid) and the Unther resistence and it's fair to say that the first Mulhorandi invading army it's out of luck. It's kind of sad that with all this going on the years between 1375 and 1385 are all about the elven crusade, the shades and gods killing each other. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 14:10:07
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| With an apperarance of thousands of additional troops it has to force Mulhorand to muster additional troops and that unless they can call on more mercenaries, which drains their war coffers and the side effects of raising taxes and other impacts of monetary matters, means conscription of the populace and that means getting the nation ready for "total" war against their ancient foes. I could see Mulhorand starting to put more emphasis on propaganda in attempts to rally the populace behind their leader and calling on "national" believes in this struggle. After all, wars are not only fought on the battlefield but also back home and across many boards. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 11:26:22
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Unther should have been free and become some kind of Selunite theocracy
The day the united forces manage to set Pharaoh's army back, they'll start to fight each other. Legion of Nana-Sin vs Banites vs army of free Unther under Northern Wizards vs forces of cult of Tiamat vs.... who's there else?
Everyone wants Unther for himself.
Red wizards support noone. They enjoy the process. Till war goes on noone threatens Thay from south. And most of factions do in fact buy their weaponry and sell POWs (or anyone they capture) into slavery to them.
When factions bleed each other enough, Mulhorand starts its next offensive. So war goes on... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 16:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
Unther should have been free and become some kind of Selunite theocracy
The day the united forces manage to set Pharaoh's army back, they'll start to fight each other. Legion of Nana-Sin vs Banites vs army of free Unther under Northern Wizards vs forces of cult of Tiamat vs.... who's there else?
Everyone wants Unther for himself.
Red wizards support noone. They enjoy the process. Till war goes on noone threatens Thay from south. And most of factions do in fact buy their weaponry and sell POWs (or anyone they capture) into slavery to them.
When factions bleed each other enough, Mulhorand starts its next offensive. So war goes on...
The Legion of Nanna-Sin, the Rebels of the Moon, the Northern Wizards and even the untheric slaves now used as auxiliaries and cannon fodder by the Mulhorandi would all side together, considering Selune is the goddess of tollerance and acceptance and she's behind both the Legion and the Rebels and considering that the Northern Wizards are good and are just trying to survive and be free.
This leaves the scattered remnants of the old untheric nobility, the bandits of the south, the Banites and the church of Tiamat as wildcards.
I don't see the Banites risking it too much against the numbers of the Legion, the Rebels and the Northern Wizards together (they're not stupid after all), the bandits of the south will probably plague the Eastern Shaar for ages but they don't control territory, the old untheric nobility will probably try something and get lynched by the rest of Unther's citizens (with the Legion available the mercenaries of the nobles aren't needed anymore to ensure the indipendence of Unther). This leaves only the church of Tiamat on the board as a believable enemy, and they'll probably go underground and start guerilla strikes and assassinations, not full scale war.
Meanwhile Mulhorand got his butt kicked and the enmity between the churches of Anhur and Horus-Re might just explode with a little help from agents of Set.
The fact is that with the Legion on the board we're not talking about hundreds or a couple of thousands of able bodied trained fighters, but about a force that could face alone the whole Mulhorandi invading army. Or at least, that's how i see them. |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 22:19:20
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| I still do not understand, how did you get the number 40 000. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 10:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
I still do not understand, how did you get the number 40 000.
Well, there are four ways to estimate the number of Shussel-folk vanished in 1370 and that later returned as the Legion of Nanna-Sin in 1374:
1) Make it up: say a number and claim is the correct one (not recommended);
2) Base it purely on 3e lore: in the 3rd Ed FRCS on page 107 it says that the vanishing took 9/10 of the population and that Shussel has 9150 inhabitants so 9150*9=82350 Shussel-folk that disappeared and later came back as the Legion (to me this seems an incorrect number because the FRCS talks about 1372 DR, with the war in full swing and Shussel occupied by Mulhorandi so we can't judge the population in 1370 by that number);
3) Base it purely on 1e (i believe it is 1e) lore: in Old Empires on page 42 it says that Shussel has 25000 inhabitants so (25000/10)*9=22500 Shussel-folk that disappeared and later came back as the Legion (to me this seems an incorrect number as well because it ignores 13 years of city growth and it ignores the adjustments made to city populations made in later editions);
4) Base it on the 1e numbers adjusted for the corrections made to all the cities (of Unther and Mulhorand, didn't check other places) in 3e (all the cities got their population more than doubled if you compare Old Empires and the 3e FRCS, for exampe: Skuld got from 95000 to 204538, Messemprar from 30000 to 98776 and Unthalass from 70000 to 164627): so we have 25000 in Old Empires, we double that and nothing more (even if by the other numbers we can freely add a couple thousands people more but whatever) and we get (50000/10)*9=45000 Shussel-folk in the Legion.
By this numbers you can go with about 20000 (underestimating, but still enough to engage the whole 20000 Mulhorandi invading army by themselves), about 40000 (seems legit to me, still an enormity but its the will of the goddess) or about 80000 (overestimating, with a force this size no one else on the board would matter).
And before someone jumps in saying "but not all were converted" i say "NO!": Nanna-Sin (Selune) took (and later released) 9/10 of the Shussel-folk (not just the army, not just the garrison, not just the able bodied males, not just the slaves), turned them into aasimars (thus invalidating any "but so and so wasn't fit to serve") and then trained them for 4 years (thus invalidating "but so and so can't fight"). So either you bring proof that the returned aren't all the 9/10 of the population or your argument is invalid. |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 10:48:06
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I see...
40K of elite aasimar warriors is a force enough not only to repel invaders, but to start conquest of whole Faerun :)
King Azoun #4 managed to gather for his alliance about 30K of troops from half a dozen countries altogether.
That's why I hate direct divine interventions, like ancient Greek spectators did :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 14:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
I still do not understand, how did you get the number 40 000.
Well, there are four ways to estimate the number of Shussel-folk vanished in 1370 and that later returned as the Legion of Nanna-Sin in 1374:
1) Make it up: say a number and claim is the correct one (not recommended);
2) Base it purely on 3e lore: in the 3rd Ed FRCS on page 107 it says that the vanishing took 9/10 of the population and that Shussel has 9150 inhabitants so 9150*9=82350 Shussel-folk that disappeared and later came back as the Legion (to me this seems an incorrect number because the FRCS talks about 1372 DR, with the war in full swing and Shussel occupied by Mulhorandi so we can't judge the population in 1370 by that number);
3) Base it purely on 1e (i believe it is 1e) lore: in Old Empires on page 42 it says that Shussel has 25000 inhabitants so (25000/10)*9=22500 Shussel-folk that disappeared and later came back as the Legion (to me this seems an incorrect number as well because it ignores 13 years of city growth and it ignores the adjustments made to city populations made in later editions);
4) Base it on the 1e numbers adjusted for the corrections made to all the cities (of Unther and Mulhorand, didn't check other places) in 3e (all the cities got their population more than doubled if you compare Old Empires and the 3e FRCS, for exampe: Skuld got from 95000 to 204538, Messemprar from 30000 to 98776 and Unthalass from 70000 to 164627): so we have 25000 in Old Empires, we double that and nothing more (even if by the other numbers we can freely add a couple thousands people more but whatever) and we get (50000/10)*9=45000 Shussel-folk in the Legion.
By this numbers you can go with about 20000 (underestimating, but still enough to engage the whole 20000 Mulhorandi invading army by themselves), about 40000 (seems legit to me, still an enormity but its the will of the goddess) or about 80000 (overestimating, with a force this size no one else on the board would matter).
And before someone jumps in saying "but not all were converted" i say "NO!": Nanna-Sin (Selune) took (and later released) 9/10 of the Shussel-folk (not just the army, not just the garrison, not just the able bodied males, not just the slaves), turned them into aasimars (thus invalidating any "but so and so wasn't fit to serve") and then trained them for 4 years (thus invalidating "but so and so can't fight"). So either you bring proof that the returned aren't all the 9/10 of the population or your argument is invalid.
You're leaving out one major factor. They may have all been converted to assimar, but that doesn't mean they're all battle ready. Selune may have pulled them all over because they all shared blood from the line of Nanna-Sin (who has been dead now for what 2300 years, so plenty of time for the royalty of said bloodline to have bred into the population). Many of them may have been children. Many of them may have been wives who have to support those children. Many of them may have been the elderly whose purpose would be to revitalized as an aasimar so that they can simply work the fields again and/or other physical labor to help protect the country (and to train the younglings while the adult males go to war). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 15:50:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You're leaving out one major factor. They may have all been converted to assimar, but that doesn't mean they're all battle ready. Selune may have pulled them all over because they all shared blood from the line of Nanna-Sin (who has been dead now for what 2300 years, so plenty of time for the royalty of said bloodline to have bred into the population). Many of them may have been children. Many of them may have been wives who have to support those children. Many of them may have been the elderly whose purpose would be to revitalized as an aasimar so that they can simply work the fields again and/or other physical labor to help protect the country (and to train the younglings while the adult males go to war).
You're right, but i think that a deity that can change the race of thousands of people can even make them all perfectly fit young adults. If there is Selune behind this, gender is irrelevant, so everyone can be turned into an holy warrior.
There were surely a lot of wives, elderly and children in Shussel but the Power of Fearun sidebar makes it look like the Shussel-folk were taken and then returned with the sole purpose of being the holy army of Nanna-Sin (Selune), making me think that the deity responsible did all the changes it had to do to get a big army on the field.
It can even be argued that 4 years are not enough to make an "elite warrior" out of a farmer but gods work with their own rules.
Still, even if we say that only 10000 of the Shussel-folk are ready to do violence, that's more than enough to squash the Mulhorandi invading army (caught from behind while being held in place by the Banites/Northern Wizards and without supply lines) and provide a solid backbone for a new Untheric Freedom Army that has all the right attributes to attract to his side a lot of scattered resistance movements and the whole block of Untheric slaves now turned Mulhorandi slaves.
Numbers aside (while i still think when they'll appear in my campaign there will be all 45000 of them), the mere existence of a force of several thousands warriors behind Mulhorandi lines is a death sentence for the first expeditionary force and a solid base for a free Unther. That's what i was pointing out in this thread.
You talking about bloodlines made me think that the Karanoks are supposed to have the blood of Nanna-Sin in their veins. Imagine their faces when they heard Nanna-Sin raised a bunch of farmers and slaves to holy warrior status while leaving them with a black ball of doom in their courtyard. Honestly i doubt 9/10 of the Shussel population were direct descendants on Nanna-Sin but maybe the city was the main center of worship of the dead god in its days pre-Orcgate Wars. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 15:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Whose to say Nanna Sin is dead.
Deities come back time and again, as long as there is belief then a deity can survive.
But the only account of his or her death is a brief mention for the orcgate wars.
The only being that could have witnessed such an event would be the gods themselves that survived. What if Gilgeam was the only one to see Nanna Sin get attacked. What if he lied.
History was written with Nanna Sin having died (probably by Gilgeam), Nanna Sin may have been imprisoned by Gilgeam (who lets face it may always have been a nutter, he may have just hidden it well before he ruled the pantheon).
Gilgeam dies, Nanna Sin is released but pathetically weak (reduced to demigod status). Mulhorand invades and suddenly the people cry out for salvation, to anyone that will listen, including the old dead gods. Hey presto Nanna Sin has enough belief to whisk away a few thousand people to train as an army. When they suddenly pop back into existence that should be enough of a show to make people believe in a once dead god again.
Maybe but the Vanishing happened in 1370 DR, the year before Mulhorandi invasion, so probably the people of Shussel were just praying for deliverance from their plight (not that they were all happy before but Unther post-Gilgeam was pure anarchy and they suffered 12 years of it already). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 16:05:17
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Every time I see the name of this thread, I think, "what about the Sins of the father?" Yeah... I know... pretty lame... 
ANYWAYS.....
Your logic is imperfect because you are assuming the same amount of growth everywhere (growth, BTW, that they later decided was wrong and killed everyone come 4e). We are talking about a region devastated by war - most people flee populated areas during times like that. We can also say that the Mulhorand cities population grew because of all the slaves taken from the conquered regions (you see, we can spin 'logic' any way we want).
So lets say the best case scenario is that the 'growth' and 'attrition' cancelled each other out, and we go with the CANON figure of 25000 and say their are 22500 in that legion... which s still WAY too many. Someone screwed-up big time (and thats probably why it isn't given so much as a nod in any later source).
I would rule (IMG, if I were even to bother with this) that that legion is 'elite' simply because they came back from the dead. In fact, you can even tie that to Unther's past and call them 'Immortals' (in other words, they fall in battle, they get right back up). That means they are fairly common soldiers (if soldiers at all - we not only have farmers and craftsmen, we have women and children!), but their whole claim to fame is that they just keep coming (which is still pretty damn awesome - you'd have to obliterate them to kill them for good). Give common peasants some great regen and susceptibility to fire (like trolls) and we're done.
22500 'Immortal' peasants is still a force to be reckoned with, but a whole lot saner the 40K uber-angels flyng around Faerűn. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 16:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Your logic is imperfect because you are assuming the same amount of growth everywhere (growth, BTW, that they later decided was wrong and killed everyone come 4e). We are talking about a region devastated by war - most people flee populated areas during times like that. We can also say that the Mulhorand cities population grew because of all the slaves taken from the conquered regions (you see, we can spin 'logic' any way we want).
Ah but the problem isn't just growth, Mulhorand population went from 900000 to 5,3 Mil in 15 years ...
All Mulhorandi and Untheric cities recieved the treatment (doubling of population), even Unthalass that was devastated by the Gilgeam/Tiamat deathmatch in 1370, the following anarchy and at last by the war.
It wasn't just adding the population growth, it was a reevaluation of the population figures across the board for Unther and Mulhorand, that's why i said that using the Old Empires numbers was underestimating the size of the Legion.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So lets say the best case scenario is that the 'growth' and 'attrition' cancelled each other out, and we go with the CANON figure of 25000 and say their are 22500 in that legion... which s still WAY too many. Someone screwed-up big time (and thats probably why it isn't given so much as a nod in any later source).
I would rule (IMG, if I were even to bother with this) that that legion is 'elite' simply because they came back from the dead. In fact, you can even tie that to Unther's past and call them 'Immortals' (in other words, they fall in battle, they get right back up). That means they are fairly common soldiers (if soldiers at all - we not only have farmers and craftsmen, we have women and children!), but their whole claim to fame is that they just keep coming (which is still pretty damn awesome - you'd have to obliterate them to kill them for good). Give common peasants some great regen and susceptibility to fire (like trolls) and we're done.
22500 'Immortal' peasants is still a force to be reckoned with, but a whole lot saner the 40K uber-angels flyng around Faerűn.
Nah, the angry angels are better, besides, even if i like Shar more of the two sisters, with all the things she's up to i feel the need to boost Selune quite a bit to even the playing field (guess when my players bring back Selunnara it will become the new flying capital of Free Selunite Unther or something like that, or maybe not, too Shade-like, but maybe i'll have the population migrate to Unther). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 17:18:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Whose to say Nanna Sin is dead.
Deities come back time and again, as long as there is belief then a deity can survive.
But the only account of his or her death is a brief mention for the orcgate wars.
The only being that could have witnessed such an event would be the gods themselves that survived. What if Gilgeam was the only one to see Nanna Sin get attacked. What if he lied.
History was written with Nanna Sin having died (probably by Gilgeam), Nanna Sin may have been imprisoned by Gilgeam (who lets face it may always have been a nutter, he may have just hidden it well before he ruled the pantheon).
Gilgeam dies, Nanna Sin is released but pathetically weak (reduced to demigod status). Mulhorand invades and suddenly the people cry out for salvation, to anyone that will listen, including the old dead gods. Hey presto Nanna Sin has enough belief to whisk away a few thousand people to train as an army. When they suddenly pop back into existence that should be enough of a show to make people believe in a once dead god again.
The gods were physically leading their own people in battle in earthly form. The people of Unther in theory saw Nanna-Sin's death. Now, with the Imaskari God Barrier gone following the ToT, yes, in theory Nanna-Sin could return. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 17:56:28
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| I like Markustay's take on it mixed with mine. It makes the most sense without it being exceedingly heavy handed changes by an essentially dead deity returned (or heavy handed changes by Selune, who typically isn't this kind of heavy handed). If the god took them in some kind of Vanishing because the bloodline in the area had the vast majority of them having Nanna-Sin's blood (again, not unheard of if some of the Untheric nobles will have fallen from grace in the 2 thousand years after their god died). If it happened maybe 50 generations ago that's plenty of time. Then, they are all brought somewhere where the latent godly energy in their blood is heightened until they become aasimar (or something like aasimar), and then they are returned. Regeneration might be a little heavy handed.... but perhaps something more "nanna-sin" ish, such as healing slowly in the light of the moon might be very appropriate... as might the ability to cast the moonblade spell 1/day (with it being a touch attack roll and scrambling magic, this could be very useful for short fights even in the hands of children) or somesuch... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 03:44:49
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Do you think the Gods of Mulhorand would sit ideally by after Selune got invovled in such a big way?
No the whole Pantheon would get invovled, perhaps in a simular way, either turn a large chunk of the population into Aasmir or Divine Minions.
And while Mulhorand doesn't have a standing army, aka the state doesn't have its own military, the Churchs do, just as the churchs in Mulhorandi own most of the land and all of the Slaves. Now it makes sense that much if the Mulhorandi's invading army are mercanaries, why sacrifice your own people, when fools will do it for you for gold.
But now Mulhorandi has a much bigger threat, which means it starts mobiling its churchs hard, not just lead and aid the army, but to fill its ranks. Maybe it offers abolishion for any slave who joins the army. That alone would boost the size of the Mulhorand army. Plus no doubt divine aid from the Mulhorandi Gods.
See thier is a reason why Gods avoid getting directly invovled on such a wide spread scale, because it begins the process of mutally assured destruction. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 03:45:31
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| I'd also like to mention Nanna-Sin's manifestation, Avatar died, not Nanna-Sin. When the Manifestation died Nanna-Sin was cut off from Toril, as Nanna-Sin did not really inhabit that crystal sphere. |
Edited by - Gyor on 11 Oct 2013 03:48:47 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 11:25:40
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| If the churches of Mulhorand start pulling slaves into the armies it offers a problem for Mulhorand. It means they have to keep them on a leash or they switch sides or simply run off during a battle. It means that the slaves are also aware that Mulhorand is in trouble and that could lead to hopes that the slaves will be freed once Mulhorand loses the war, this means they potentially have to deal with slave uprisings and undertakings that could harm the war effort for Mulhorand. It throws another wrench into their war machine and i personally see Mulhorand rather rely on citizens before using slaves. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:26:45
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The Mulhorandi deities took a backseat when they ceased battling with the Untheric ones and established the River of Swords as a common border. In 1370s half of them is utterly disinterested in mortal dealings and wants to return to their home plane (Ao lifted the barrier during the ToT if i remember correctly) and the other half is worried about the Faerunian pantheon encroachment on their churches and/or arguing/warring between themselves (Horus-Re, Anhur and Set).
Furthermore the Mulhorandi deities don't need cheap tactics to get followers in the war, they got established and strong churches ALREADY fighting the war (Anhur and Horus-Re both have lots of men and resources invested).
As Lord Bane said, it would be foolish for the Mulhorandi to send their own slaves to fight the free slaves of Unther and the other factions (Rebels of the Moon, Legion of Nanna-Sin, Northern Wizards) that preach freedom, indipendence and equality. Against rampaging monsters from Thay? Sure. Against the old tyrannical Gilgeamite Unther? Sure. Against a bunch of do-gooders that want to set them free? Not a chance. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 15:13:17
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Still not entirely happy with anything anyone is coming up with here - Id' prefer this piece of lore 'just go away' (they could say it was a HIGHLY exaggerated number, for instance). 'Armies of Angels' is just SO over-the-top, IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
If the churches of Mulhorand start pulling slaves into the armies it offers a problem for Mulhorand. It means they have to keep them on a leash or they switch sides or simply run off during a battle. It means that the slaves are also aware that Mulhorand is in trouble and that could lead to hopes that the slaves will be freed once Mulhorand loses the war, this means they potentially have to deal with slave uprisings and undertakings that could harm the war effort for Mulhorand. It throws another wrench into their war machine and i personally see Mulhorand rather rely on citizens before using slaves.
While I agree with your assessment, Gyor's idea of 'abolition' (freeing slaves who have served in the military) makes some sense, and could possibly counter the negative aspects.
There is still the (major) problem of having them on the side that wants to keep slavery around (unlike Civil War era America). BUT, their families will still be kept back in Mulhorand, as a type of hostages. They would have to earn money (and continue in military service after their tour of duty is over) in order to buy the freedom for their families as well, and that could serve to keep them loyal.
The ancient Middle-Eastern cultures were known for having an entire class of 'slave warrior' (Mamluk). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 15:43:54
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Abolition? In Mulhorand? You might as well declare the whole pantheon fake and watch the riots in the streets.
In Mulhorand the slaves are owned by the gods, no mortal, however important he might think he is, would be able to do such a thing.
It would get ALL the churches and probably ALL the free citizens up in arms at the same time. The Pharaoh might as well suicide.
And even in a parallel Realms where this might happen, after the bloodbath ends Mulhorand (probably with another name) would be unfit for war for years.
Yes, the Mamluks existed. Yes, the church of Anhur trains slaves for war, but they don't pit them against freedom fighters. For example during the Untheric War, the Untheric slaves caught by the Mulhorandi army were enlisted, briefly trained and then sent to fight the mercenary armies of their former masters, thus having all the reasons to keep fighting on Mulhorand's side.
Also, Markustay, don't worry, in the canonical Realms the war ended in 1379 with Mulhorand victorius after years of low-level skirmish (GHotR page 159) therefore in the canonical Realms the Legion of Nanna-Sin was probably a useless force of deluded peasants suffering from mass allucination, or something similar. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 15:56:11
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Mulhorand itself had its own problems alluded to in the old empires book.
The churches of Anhur and Horus-Re were in constant one up manship to try and get the favour of the people and the pharoah.
For most of the recent history i believe that the church of Horus-Re was favoured by the Pharoah and the church of Anhur was sidelined in government and other positions, but the people liked the church of Anhur more.
The new Pharoah i believe was slightly more favourable to Anhur but the entrenchment of Horus-Re in the government meant he could do nothing about it unless the church of Horus-Re was discredited for some reason.
Now at some point i believe Mulhorand invaded the Alaor and seized it briefly, and then it suddenly returned to the hands of Thay again a few months later.
This coupled with the invasion of Unther means that the church of Horus-Re who is probably in overall command of the invasion cannot afford another setback. If it had to it may well throw everything at the invasion which if it failed could be disasterous to Mulhorand.
Would the church of Horus-Re ever abolish slavery, absolutely not. They are very much the old guard of Mulhorand preserving things as it has always been. Should the church lose its favoured position then anything goes.
I always intended in my campaign for the Mulhorandi to fail in their invasion, but more through internal intrigue than through outside influence, all the armies of Unther had to do was hold out long enough for the invasion to collapse.
The Mulhorandi can then return home with bags of treasure looted from Unther and proclaim it an absolute success. Unther continues albeit in a different manner with the Faerunian pantheon taking over this sphere.
The main ramification is in the church of Horus-Re losing its stranglehold on Mulhorandi society which allows it to evolve for the first time in millenia. The old technology is reactivated, learning is stimulated, the armies are turned over to Anhur and slavery is not necessarily abolished but is no longer controlled by the church.
But thats just my intention. I never had 40,000 elite warriors turn up, the city population was only 25,000 and it was described as a city in decline, desert encroaching on its borders, rampant starvation mitigated only by the efforts of priests.
I figured a little over 5,000 of that population would be combat ready (age, gender, and illness discounting most of the others). So 5,000 men appear behind Mulhorandi lines, enough to break the supply line, certainly not enough to destroy the army.
The invasion is halted and the realms can continue largely as it did before. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 18:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
If the churches of Mulhorand start pulling slaves into the armies it offers a problem for Mulhorand. It means they have to keep them on a leash or they switch sides or simply run off during a battle. It means that the slaves are also aware that Mulhorand is in trouble and that could lead to hopes that the slaves will be freed once Mulhorand loses the war, this means they potentially have to deal with slave uprisings and undertakings that could harm the war effort for Mulhorand. It throws another wrench into their war machine and i personally see Mulhorand rather rely on citizens before using slaves.
Also, bear in mind, slavery in Mulhorand isn't as brutal as people picture slavery to be in places such as Thay. The Mulhorandi slaves are treated well, given decent food, taken care of by the church if hurt. The Mulhorandi honestly believe that a slave in their country is better off than a citizen in surrounding countries. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 18:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For most of the recent history i believe that the church of Horus-Re was favoured by the Pharoah and the church of Anhur was sidelined in government and other positions, but the people liked the church of Anhur more.
One thing you've got to remember up until recently. Every Pharaoh was an incarnation of Horus-Re until the ToT. This new Pharaoh is the FIRST who isn't ANY LONGER, but even so, he is still of the royal family whose bloodline traces itself back to Horus-Re (i.e. the house of Helcaliant).
Of course, another thing to remember that people often forget (because its not really shown well in the lore) is that the Pharaoh's brothers and sisters were incarnations of the other gods. Also, there can be multiple incarnations of a given deity at the same time. There's several references where they say things like "all the incarnations of Horus-Re were dead at the time".
You know, I am kind of torn. Part of me likes the idea that these incarnations are born as incarnations of the gods. Part of me though likes even more that they're born as aasimar and a later religious ritual turns them into incarnations. I'm picturing something like the rituals that the Haldanes had to perform with the aid of Deryni that opened up their latent powers. Maybe they have to "purify" themselves or become of an adult age or something. Maybe the gods watch them in their youth to see the true character of the royal to determine which god will share themselves with the youth.
from old empires, pg 11
The pharaoh, the incarnation of Horus-Re, sits on the throne in Skuld. He is more of a figurehead than a ruler, and this is mostly by choice, for reasons explained earlier. Theoretically, the priesthood,
mages, and bureaucrats must obey every whim of the pharaoh, but he has yet to exert his authority. One notable quote from the priesthood is this: #147;The pharaoh wishes to be involved in the important affairs of the land. Design him a new temple so that he will take his mind off such a foolish notion.#148;
The pharaoh is always male and always an incarnation of Horus-Re [except for a brief time after the loss of Thay, when an incarnation of Thoth took the throne (all of the other incarnations of Horus-Re were dead)].
the following from Old Empires, pg 23
Another important concept is that of an incarnation. The incarnation is a mortal form of a deity. An incarnation is very powerful, equal to a high-level character, occasionally possessing minor divine powers, but still capable of being slain (Tholaunt, an incarnation of
Anhur, was slain 30 years ago by Valerios of Pyardos, one of the Tharchions of Thay). Incarnations compose most of a pharaoh#146;s royal family, but the eldest is always an incarnation of Horus-Re. An incarnation has the general temperament of a manifestation, but it is not under the direct control of the deity and can be affected by mortal weaknesses and foibles. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2016 : 22:31:31
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In my campaign, the PCs have travelled to the Astral Plane, where they encountered the remains of Nanna-Sin. After one thing leading to another, some of them have managed to become divine servitors of Na-an-na/Su'en.
We left last session as the PC who most impressed the lingering remnants of the god's sentience saw the ranks and file of the celestial Legion of Nanna-Sin.
I'm wondering how the Legion should work, exactly.
How were they trained and in what kind of warfare?
Where did their equipment come from? What are their weapons made from, what materials do they use for armour, etc.? Do they have mounts or baggage animals for a logistical tail?
Also, what happened to those citizens of Shussel who were unsuitable for front-line military service, due to reasons of age, stature or personality?
Finally, what is the command structure of the Legion like? Are there some celestial servants from Nanna-Sin's former realm in command or are the officers important people from Shussel taken in the Vanishing?
Were there angels available to act as training officers during the three years that the Shussel-folk have spent in training? What about sergeants? Who took on those duties? |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2016 : 16:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm wondering how the Legion should work, exactly.
That really depends in how much of Nanna-Sin's "infrastructure" is still there and how much Selune has taken the lead, with the differences there are between the two (even considering how little we know about Nanna-Sin). So it's up to the individual DM.
For me, i've it that Selune is in charge and Nanna-Sin is no more but Selune, being a goddess of tollerance, didn't go for a total take over so she is still called Nanna-Sin and the rites are still those of the ancient clergy. So (but keep in mind i didn't have the need to detail things out too much in my campaign):
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
How were they trained and in what kind of warfare?
Where did their equipment come from? What are their weapons made from, what materials do they use for armour, etc.? Do they have mounts or baggage animals for a logistical tail?
Also, what happened to those citizens of Shussel who were unsuitable for front-line military service, due to reasons of age, stature or personality?
Finally, what is the command structure of the Legion like? Are there some celestial servants from Nanna-Sin's former realm in command or are the officers important people from Shussel taken in the Vanishing?
Were there angels available to act as training officers during the three years that the Shussel-folk have spent in training? What about sergeants? Who took on those duties?
For me Selune isn't about imposing things, it's about exalting and weaving together in greater tapestries of cooperation different qualities and different individuals. Also Selune's Church can count on no organized "military arm" of the faith of note but on dozens of adventurers, on the Harpers and on neutral and good aligned lycanthropes of all types. These factors led me to establish that the Legion is commanded by a werewolf adventurer and follower of Selune, his traveling companions, a smattering of "specialists" from the harpers or other adventuring groups and what remains of the faithful of Nanna-Sin of Shussel (it was the site of his last and strongest temple on Toril, so there must still be a few, with spells granted by Selune).
Also we have to keep in mind that the Shussel-folk were mostly farmers and fishers (the mines were dried out) with a sizeable contingent of mercenaries to keep the peace and keep the sahuagin at bay. Lastly Powers of Fearun report that they were turned into aasimars so if we go by the letter of it they got a bunch of traits that, once discovered by tactically acute individual (like adventurers or mercenary leaders) can be exploited on the battlefield.
All these lead me to believe that the Legion of Nanna-Sin is composed of all able bodied males and females among the Shussel-folk (counting those that reached age of maturity during the 3-4 years hiatus as "recruits" of variable experience) divided as such:
- the bulk is probably comprised of the mercenary forces (standard warriors and fighters) and the more vanilla citizens (also warriors and fighters thanks to training) as typical medium/heavy infantry;
- the rest is composed of bands of skirmishers with those with more stealthy attitudes and those with latent or manifest divine and arcane potential, maybe awakened by the transformation into aasimars (messing with the bloodline and all that jazz);
The Legion would thus be like regular armed forces, with added motivation and a couple of tricks in their bags:
- darkvision on wide scale (the entire army) is really bad news for the enemy, especially since they can't expect it the first few times, and if fighting in the dark ever turns out to be an hindrance (probably never against the Mulhorandi forces) the aasimars can all call on daylight and go to town;
- the heavy divine connotation probably means a lot of create food and water for basics needs and a lot of lesser healing spread around, not from a few high level clerics but from a lot of very low level ones;
- again, given the sacred nature of the army, it probably means all the officers have access to moonfire equipment (from Faiths and Avatar) and power boosts;
- since they are aasimars, they've got basic (5) elemental resistances to acid/electricy/cold, this means they can freely employ acid flasks or splash damage low level spells (ice dagger, frost breath, corona of cold, acid spray) to cull the enemy lines without fear of harming their owns;
All this, even with not-exceptional training (meaning no more levels than common soldiers of other armies) and not-exceptional equipment (although if Selune was preparing this for 3-4 years i bet she got at least usable steel weapons and stout armors for everyone and masterwork or magical ones for the officers) means the Legion can completely wreck other armies with nightly assaults and low level spell barrage or alchemical acid abuse, kind of just showing in the field. |
Edited by - Demzer on 30 Aug 2016 17:05:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2016 : 08:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The invading army numbered twenty thousands so i think it's fair to say that without the Spellplague mumbo-jumbo (heck even well before, like in 1376) Unther should have been free and become some kind of Selunite theocracy (the sidebar states Selune was involved). They could've probably annexed parts of Chessenta and Mulhorand if they wanted to (but i don't think they would, we are talking about good Selunite crusaders after all).
Actually, the sidebar in Powers of Faerun states that the reinvigorated Nanna-Sin might be an aspect of Selune. As in, it's possible that through some mystical god-business, Nanna-Sin can call upon power from Selune. That would be a good explanation for how Nanna-Sin came to be reinvigorated. That doesn't mean that the Legion of Nanna-Sin believes that they are working for Selune, approves of Selunite dogma or cares about the personality of Selune. The Legion are crusaders, yes, good-aligned, certainly, but they are crusaders of Nanna-Sin.
Even if Selune is somehow behind Nanna-Sin, the worshippers of the two deities are not aware of it. The mention of Selune in Power of Faerun appears to be so that GMs can, if they desire, decide that in their campaign, Nanna-Sin is secretly an aspect of Selune.
Selune certainly did not call upon the resources of her established church, nor does she seem to have notified any of her worshippers in the region. See, for example, that when discussing the 'War upon the Sands' article in Dragon Magazine #358, the author believes that Ningal, the Daughter of the Moon, the most important worshipper of Selune in the Old Empires, had trouble accepting the help of the Legion of Nanna-Sin and only came to a modus vivendi with them because of common enemies. From her perspective, the Legion was composed of worshippers of a dangerous rival god to Selune.
As for the size of the army compared to the Mulhorandi one, keep in mind that the 20,000 man invading army is not even remotely all the military power of Mulhorand. It's not even all the military power they have in Unther. Remember that the Mulhorandi have armed and trained Untheri slaves to root out pockets of resistance, which probably translates into several tens of thousands of extra troops.*
Aside from that, after suffering setbacks against the Banites of Mourktar and the Legion of Nanna-Sin in 1374 DR, the Mulhorandi would have had to make a decision about the future of the invasion. They expected to finish the war with one siege of Messeprar, the last pocket of resistance, but instead find themselves on the defensive on both sides of their own front lines.
Judging from the fact that in the official timeline, they finally conquered Messemprar in 1379 DR (Grand History of the Realms), the most likely turn of events is that the armies already in Unther were massively reinforced in the years 1374-1379.
More soldiers of Pharoah's armies were sent to retrieve the situation and in the long term, the church of Anhur was probably permitted to recruit much more widely, both in Unther and Mulhorand. Add to that cavalry levies from Murghom, probably demanded in even greater numbers than before, and mercenaries hired with the vast reserves of bullion that Mulhorand must have in its very old coffers.
At the end, Mulhorandi society will have been transformed and a lot of powerful people made nervous, but I'd predict that the Pharoah was more directly powerful than he'd have been for millenia, and the military might of Mulhorand dwarved Thay.
And then the Spellplague hit.
*Granted, of nowhere near the quality of professional soldiers of the Pharoah, but those tens of thousands can perform garrison and counter-insurgency duties and leave the Mulhorandi soldiers free to act as the tip of the spear.
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Edited by - Icelander on 31 Aug 2016 08:46:10 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 15:43:44
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| The last I'd heard of Nanna-Sin it was in the Novel Ashes of the Tyrant, where Ninna-Sin appears to be invovled in things somehow. I really have to reread that section of the book. |
Edited by - Gyor on 09 Sep 2016 15:44:12 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2016 : 13:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The last I'd heard of Nanna-Sin it was in the Novel Ashes of the Tyrant, where Ninna-Sin appears to be invovled in things somehow. I really have to reread that section of the book.
I wasn't aware that any characters or deities from Mulhorand or Unther were featured in books set during the 4e Realms or later. I'm not an expert on the 4e Realms, but weren't those lands removed in favour of WoW content?
Any insight into Nanna-Sin as a character and/or a Realms deity is welcomed. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Sep 2016 13:01:45 |
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Legion of Nanna-Sin
