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 What is the earliest date for dwarves?
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2007 :  18:54:03  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have been trying to get a feel for the timeline of dwarves in the Realms. Sources point to an origin point in the Yehimal mountains in the distant past. It is said they spread out from there into Kara-Tur, Zakhara and Faerūn.

The earliest date I can find for dwarves is the founding of the Kingdom of Bhaerynden below the Southern Plains "over 16,000 years ago" or circa 15,000 DR (give or take).

Does anyone know of any earlier dates for dwarves in the Realms?

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2007 :  19:11:42  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I have been trying to get a feel for the timeline of dwarves in the Realms. Sources point to an origin point in the Yehimal mountains in the distant past. It is said they spread out from there into Kara-Tur, Zakhara and Faerūn.

The earliest date I can find for dwarves is the founding of the Kingdom of Bhaerynden below the Southern Plains "over 16,000 years ago" or circa 15,000 DR (give or take).

Does anyone know of any earlier dates for dwarves in the Realms?



I think that sounds about right. I assume you are getting the Yehimal Mountains origin from Demihuman Deities. Bhaerynden was really the beginning of dwarven culture in Faerun, and that was just one of the three branches from the Yehimal Mountains. However, it would not be unreasonable to make the Yehimal Mountain "founding state" short-lived or long-lived, depending on what fits for the DM.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30204 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2007 :  19:23:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most dwarves don't start dating until about their early 40's, though it's not uncommon for dwarves in their late 30's to start dating.

On a more serious note, don't forget about Brian R. James's Xoth Jakolor, The History of the Dwarven People of Faerūn.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Jun 2007 19:24:57
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2007 :  01:43:46  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Eric! Thanks Wooly! and by extension thanks Brian!

That is an awesome dwarf timeline, but looking at the first date mentioned, I think Brian's dating may be off by 3000 years or so. The earliest date in the Xoth Jaklor, and their earliest mention in the Grand History timeline as well, is given as -12,000 DR.

Races of Faerūn p.11 right under the history caption of the Gold Dwarves section says that Bhaerhynden was founded more than 16,000 years ago, which would put it around -15,000 DR (give or take a few hundred years).

And then, who knows how long it took the dwarves to migrate as far west as Bhaerynden from the Yehimals? I wonder also how much further back into the dark of history since the dwarves first appeared in the Yehimals.

The FRCS mentions that dwarves interloped before elves, which caused me to do a doubletake when that was pointed out to me this weekend. I had always thought the dwarves didn't have much history prior to -12,000 DR, and so I assumed that was about the time they arrived on Toril, but it now appears like they might have had a much longer (if quieter) history on Toril than I realized.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2007 :  06:10:48  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Most dwarves don't start dating until about their early 40's, though it's not uncommon for dwarves in their late 30's to start dating.

On a more serious note, don't forget about Brian R. James's Xoth Jakolor, The History of the Dwarven People of Faerūn.

WOW!!! thanks Wooly! and THANKS Brian R. James! I was not aware of this site until just now! (I can't wait to read this, which I may or may not do from work... )
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Matthus
Senior Scribe

Germany
393 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2007 :  11:13:31  Show Profile  Visit Matthus's Homepage Send Matthus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
WOW!!! thanks Wooly! and THANKS Brian R. James! I was not aware of this site until just now! (I can't wait to read this, which I may or may not do from work... )



I can only side with the Knight here - but I must confess - I'm reading this from work

I always enjoy a good work on behalf of the Stout Folk and this timeline shortens my search on dwarven topics noticeably - Thanks again
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2007 :  14:36:00  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally dated the 'dwarves in the Yehimal Mountains' at c. -16000 DR for various timelines.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1080 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2007 :  16:22:36  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alas, Xoth Jaklor hasn't been updated in a while and is starting to show its age. As George indicated c. -16000 is now the official date for the first dwarven settlements in the Yehimals.

As far as dwarves interloping before the elves: As this statement is not backed up by supporting lore, I chalk it up to an honest designer mistake. But you never know, a future sourcebook may come along and turn this little conundrum into a happy accident and explain away the inconsistency with fantastic new Realmslore. I know of no such plans mind you, but it’s inevitable with the like of Krashos and Boyd keeping watch on the Realms.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2007 :  22:13:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL

Guess I have to modify my "Timeline of the Wastes" as well. Thats going to put a 4000 year kink into things.

I guess that other thread has you searching high and low for the truth of the 'Black Diamond' legend, eh Gray?

BTW, the fact that the Dwarves now migrated out of the Yehimals soon after the Sundering could mean that the Elves literally 'brought the roof down' on them.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  18:19:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Casts *Raise scroll*
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Most dwarves don't start dating until about their early 40's, though it's not uncommon for dwarves in their late 30's to start dating.

On a more serious note, don't forget about Brian R. James's Xoth Jakolor, The History of the Dwarven People of Faerūn.

WOW!!! thanks Wooly! and THANKS Brian R. James! I was not aware of this site until just now! (I can't wait to read this, which I may or may not do from work... )
The link appears to be broken - anyone else have a copy of this source?

I need some solid dates for dwarves (and NO, I don't mean to set them up for the underdark spring mixer).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  18:45:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
+1 Wooly's little linky being broken (you should really have that checked).

But I did find **** THIS **** ... is it a copy of the same lore?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 26 May 2012 18:48:16
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  19:02:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ack. I need Ie to see it... damn.

I will not ever turn on that piece of malware - all it ever wants to do is "improve your browsing experience", which is corp.-speak for "blast you with thousands of ads" (and make your computer a slow PoS.)

Damn, I'm on a tear today... I need to take some meds or something...

I think I'll download it with someone else's computer and mail it to myself. It looks like a good read.

EDIT: Thanks Ayrik

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 19:03:25
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  21:15:50  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The link appears to be broken - anyone else have a copy of this source?

I need some solid dates for dwarves (and NO, I don't mean to set them up for the underdark spring mixer).


-It was only the Dwarven-related entries from A Grand History of the Realms separated and listed next to each other. Just like the Shou one was all of the Kara-Tur-related entries, the Elven one all of the Elven-related entries, and so on. Do a search for 'Dwarf', 'Dwarven', or whatever else in the .PDF document, and you'll get most, if not all of what that consisted of.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 May 2012 21:16:57
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