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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 00:05:59
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I have to admit to having an ulterior motive when I asked the question in Ed’s thread about the age of majority in Cormyr.
To be brief, I’m wondering how Cormyr punishes petty theft, “grand” theft and burglary and if the punishment for these things would be different for a teenager under the age of majority, such as a “street urchin”. Would it matter which city it was in? Do accused criminals get defenders at trial?
To be a bit more verbose, I’m planning a new campaign and the planned* major plotlines involves tracking down the surviving relatives and associates of a now-dead band of adventurers and attempting to obtain from them various items and bits of information that will aid the party in defeating the foe who eventually killed said adventurers (and is now up to no-good again).
In planning the various relatives and associates, I came up with the story of a teenager in Cormyr who was the son of one of these adventurers and who, between the adventuring party dying and the various disasters that have befallen Cormyr recently, has found himself orphaned and living on the streets. He knows of a cache of coin and items his father hid in a secret compartment in the basement of the family home, which is now owned by someone else. He attempted to sneak in and recover what he could, but was caught and subject to whatever the legal punishment for attempted burglary is. I’m curious what it is, especially if he’s had previous run-ins with the law for petty crimes.
Anyway, when the PCs catch up to him, they’ll find the kid recognizes the description of what they’re looking for and knows where it is – in the cache. At that point, they’re faced with having to find a way to retrieve the item (and may possibly have to cut a deal with the kid in order to get him to tell them where and how to access the cache). That could go many ways depending on what kind of characters they’ve made and how they play them. One possibility is that they’ll attempt their own burglary, thus I need some idea of the punishment they potentially face if they’re caught.
Have these questions been addressed anywhere? If not, perhaps I should repost this over in Ed’s thread.
* I say planned because there is no telling what the players will do once play starts. For all I know, they’ll decide to pack up and head for Chult in the first session.
Thanks.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 00:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin
* I say planned because there is no telling what the players will do once play starts. For all I know, they’ll decide to pack up and head for Chult in the first session.
Thanks.
Not much to add at this point, except to say that I love to see another DM that has this mindset. It kind of rankles me when a DM gets upset when "his" campaign doesn't stay on track, as if the players are just actors in his grand story.
Heck, these very halls are littered with hundreds of ideas I had for my Mistledale campaign that the players never followed up on, but the flip side is, it was great all of the new plot threads I had to develop because of what they DID do. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 02:23:52
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To answer the last bit first, remember that as the DM, while you don't want to hand-hold or nose-lead your players, you're still in charge of everything that isn't a player decision. This includes the travelling caravans, portals, and ships that would carry the PCs out of Cormyr. Even PC funds (which would pay for horses, food, and/or lodging) are, in the end, controlled by the DM; you're not required to give them extra gold to pay for the expense of travel. Not that you should force them to stay in Cormyr, or anywhere else. But in the Realms, as in life, travelling costs money. Role-playing is all about choices and the costs the represent.
To the heart of your question, most non-violent crimes in Cormyr are punished by fines or forced labor of some sort. The nature and duration of the punishment is commensurate with the severity of the offense: stealing a loaf of bread from a baker's window might require payment for the bread, the broken window, and an additional fine as a penalty ("punitive damages" in modern parlance). Of course, if you're stealing bread, you probably can't afford a fine, so it's forced labor for you: possibly a tenday's work in the baker's service--chopping firewood, pumping bellows, kneading dough, and the like.
In this specific case, a parentless minor--I'm assuming somewhere in between the "magic" numbers of true minority (12) and full majority (17)--would receive a different punishment depending on the location of the crime and the disposition of both the wronged (the new owners) and the local Purple Dragons.
Suzailan Dragons have a dimmer view of thieving children than Marsemban (who often don't pay any mind) or Arabellan (who have bigger fish to fry). In Suzail, the child would probably be subjected to a month of obligatory service: keeping the Promenade clean, porting water, rations, and supplies inside the Citadel of the Purple Dragon, etc. In Arabel or Marsember, it'd probably be something similar, though the punishment would also include non-critical message-running, and might be just a tenday or two.
For an adult, you're looking at at least a month--up to three--of harder labor: paving roads, digging ditches and trenches, dredging the Starwater or Immerflow, clearing damaged fields, moving off carrion... that sort of thing. For adventurers, this can usually be replaced with some sort of dangerous mission or quest. If they succeed, their offense is forgiven. If they die in the trying, their crime no longer matters. An adventuring company that agrees to such an assignment, but abdicates the responsibility, would be hunted as outlaws. |
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Donager
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 06:27:40
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| Wow, great writeup Garen. Really gave me more to think about. |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 10:57:36
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<quote>Not much to add at this point, except to say that I love to see another DM that has this mindset. It kind of rankles me when a DM gets upset when "his" campaign doesn't stay on track, as if the players are just actors in his grand story.</quote>
You have a good point KnightErrantJR. Years ago I had a group who's DM was that kind of guy that became angry when his players didn't do what he intented to let us do. In the end I didn't enjoy that kind of gaming and I left the group. (in the end it was 2 play sessions and 1 session we had "out of characters disputes", and so on. As a DM myself I try to give my own players so much freedom in what they do. of course, what they do can bring other actions. If they want to go to thay to kill szas tam when they are still 3'd level, i will give them warnings that this should be suicide but I don't gonna forbit them to try it. If I have made a subquest and they don't wanna do that quest, pity me, but they don't do it and i have to find something else :-).
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 11:19:11
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as far as I remember the wife of Mourngrim Amcathras (Lord of Shadowdale) was a Cormyrean thief, who was caught.
In order to make settle things the Crown sent her as ambassador to the Shadowdale, where the local lord fell in love with her.
I guess, the rules would be very strict (probably like in Real Western World), (we have a proverb in German language, I don't know, if it exists in English as well:) "Things are never eaten as hot, as they are cooked (or beeing prepared)" |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 16:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
To answer the last bit first, remember that as the DM, while you don't want to hand-hold or nose-lead your players, you're still in charge of everything that isn't a player decision. This includes the travelling caravans, portals, and ships that would carry the PCs out of Cormyr. Even PC funds (which would pay for horses, food, and/or lodging) are, in the end, controlled by the DM; you're not required to give them extra gold to pay for the expense of travel. Not that you should force them to stay in Cormyr, or anywhere else. But in the Realms, as in life, travelling costs money. Role-playing is all about choices and the costs the represent.
That's all very true. That said, I was really just making a reference to the tendency players have to ignore planned plot hooks and decide to do something else -- even if it doesn't involve travel.
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
To the heart of your question, most non-violent crimes in Cormyr are punished by fines or forced labor of some sort. The nature and duration of the punishment is commensurate with the severity of the offense: stealing a loaf of bread from a baker's window might require payment for the bread, the broken window, and an additional fine as a penalty ("punitive damages" in modern parlance). Of course, if you're stealing bread, you probably can't afford a fine, so it's forced labor for you: possibly a tenday's work in the baker's service--chopping firewood, pumping bellows, kneading dough, and the like.
In this specific case, a parentless minor--I'm assuming somewhere in between the "magic" numbers of true minority (12) and full majority (17)--would receive a different punishment depending on the location of the crime and the disposition of both the wronged (the new owners) and the local Purple Dragons.
Suzailan Dragons have a dimmer view of thieving children than Marsemban (who often don't pay any mind) or Arabellan (who have bigger fish to fry). In Suzail, the child would probably be subjected to a month of obligatory service: keeping the Promenade clean, porting water, rations, and supplies inside the Citadel of the Purple Dragon, etc. In Arabel or Marsember, it'd probably be something similar, though the punishment would also include non-critical message-running, and might be just a tenday or two.
For an adult, you're looking at at least a month--up to three--of harder labor: paving roads, digging ditches and trenches, dredging the Starwater or Immerflow, clearing damaged fields, moving off carrion... that sort of thing. For adventurers, this can usually be replaced with some sort of dangerous mission or quest. If they succeed, their offense is forgiven. If they die in the trying, their crime no longer matters. An adventuring company that agrees to such an assignment, but abdicates the responsibility, would be hunted as outlaws.
Thanks for the detailed information. I did, indeed, mean those between 12 and 17.
I presume that in cases where someone is sentenced to labor, there is probably some sort of security arrangement made to ensure the convict doesn't just run off. Presumably adults doing heavy labor are guarded during the day and locked up at night. Youths may or may not be locked up depending on the severity of their crime and the nature of the punishment and their general situation.
For some, they may simply rely on the threat of more severe punishment to keep the convict from skipping out on their punishment(as you mentioned about adventurers who back out on a deal to do a dangerous mission).
In the case of those under 17 and without parents or guardians, it occurred to me that the authorities may be inclined to attach some provision to the sentence requiring the youth to apprentice himself, enter someone's service or find gainful employment -- or risk the crown doing it for them. The goal being to get them into a situation where they are making an honest living, keep them busy and presumably put them under the authority of some adult who will keep them in line in the future. I'm sure it would vary by location. Marsember probably isn't the sort of place to be terribly aggressive about this while Arabel needs all the hands it can get and would be very aggressive about it. Suzail seems the sort of orderly place that would like to get idle youths "off the street" but where relatively few would want to take them on themselves. Suzail might end up sending them to Arabel to find employment and help with rebuilding.
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 16:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Not much to add at this point, except to say that I love to see another DM that has this mindset. It kind of rankles me when a DM gets upset when "his" campaign doesn't stay on track, as if the players are just actors in his grand story.
Yeah, I don't try to force the players down a path they don't want to go on. Most of my players have been pretty good about following up on plot hooks, but sometimes they do stray off the path, so to speak.
Trying to force the players to keep to the straight and narrow, so to speak, is just asking for all sorts of grief.
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Law in Cormyr
