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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 14:24:50
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Yeah, unless it's stated somehwere in the literature that Planescape's cosmology forms the blueprint for multiple settings, OHG would not trump FRCS and MotP.
Interesting to note the similarities bewteen cosmologies though.
The following sources should not be overlooked either:
Dungen Master's Guide
"The cosmology that you create should fit the needs of your campaign... Your cosmology can reflect your own desires for the direction you want the campaign to take."
Manual of the Planes
"Material Plane creatures who have died can go to the Outer Planes for final judgment and/or great reward. Whether spirits of the dead wind up on the Outer Planes depends on how how you view your cosmology and what your game needs to make it work." |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 14:39:25
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For reference sake, here is The Sage's article referenced earlier in the thread. Note the paragraph on Planescape:
The Forgotten Realms Cosmology (2ed. To 3ed.)
The following illustrates the changes made to the cosmological model of the planes for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting from 2e to 3e.
We will begin with the planar framework as it was during the days of 2e. In this model, the cosmology is defined by the existence of only ONE Prime Material Plane and the planar cosmology that connects to it -- referred as the Great Wheel (or Ring). This Prime Material Plane was the basis of the entire AD&D game and followed the framework established by the 1e/2e Manual of the Planes. Along the Great Wheel lay the planes of deities, devils, demons, celestials, and nearly every other strange planar race. These planes could be accessed using the Astral Plane which connected to most Outer Plane locations. Although there was only one Prime Material Plane, the plane itself was considered an INFINITE expanse encompassing thousands of singular planetary systems which were encased in Crystal Spheres (usually defined as a standard system containing all the planets, suns, comets and other planetary phenomena within it). Examples of such Crystal Spheres include the Torilian system, the Krynnish system, the solar system of Oerth and the GREYHAWK campaign setting, and nearly every other AD&D campaign world (special note: the RAVENLOFT setting was actually a demiplane within the Ethereal plane of 2e, along with many other demiplanes). Travel to and from these individual crystal spheres was made possible via a transitive planar-like environment known as the Phlogiston -- PCs could access new Crystal Spheres using a spelljamming helm which made travel on the Phlogiston available to characters.
Also included among the planes of the Great Wheel were the Elemental Planes (or Inner Planes). These planes could be accessed by planar travellers through the Ethereal plane. These planes are very specific environments each of which were based on one of the particular prime elements (earth, air, fire and water) necessary for life. Included with these four prime elemental planes were the Energy Planes -- being the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. The final components of the Elemental Planes were the Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes, each of which were basic combinations of two inner planes. The Para-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of each of the prime elemental planes, and the Quasi-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of one prime elemental plane and either the Positive or Negative Energy plane. There were six for each category.
With the publishing of the core D&D 3e game system, the cosmology framework was altered. The greatest change was to give each 3e campaign setting a complete and separate a planar cosmology all its own. The Great Wheel would still remain, but would only be connected to the core setting of the D&D game -- that being GREYHAWK. The FORGOTTEN REALMS world was one of the campaign settings to be given its own planar framework (known as the Great Tree [detailed in the Player's Guide to Faerun]) which is actually quite different from most other cosmologies of most campaign worlds. One further change was to give each campaign setting its own Prime Material Plane. As such, the multiverse could potentially contain hundreds, thousands, or even millions of individual Prime Material Planes, each of which would have their own individual planar networks connected to them ONLY. To simplify this a little, this means that there could now be more than one standard version of a deity or plane (for example, there are now hundreds of Seldarine courts each of which are related only to a particular campaign setting), whereas in 2e, the Seldarine on the Great Wheel was the Seldarine that the FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK settings could relate to.
The Elemental Planes of the 3e FORGOTTEN REALMS Great Tree cosmology are composed of the four prime Elemental Planes (earth, air, fire and water), the Para-Elemental Planes (see the Kezef entry in Champions of Ruin), and the two Energy Planes (positive and negative).
Aside from all of this, is the case for Sigil, the City of Doors. In the 2e PLANESCAPE campaign setting, the City of Doors rested at the peak of the infinitely tall Spire centred in the Outlands (the basis of the Great Wheel cosmology). In 3e, Sigil does still exist as the City of Doors, but it now occupies a completely separate planar environment all its own inside the Great Wheel of the 3e D&D core cosmology. What is special about this individual plane inside the Great Wheel (and atop the Spire) is that the independent nature of the plane in which Sigil rests allows this Sigil to be the only Sigil in the entire multiverse -- thus, the Sigil of the Great Wheel is also the Sigil of the Great Tree for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.
And finally, the Ethereal and Astral Planes allow access to all the planes in the Great Tree -- as does the Shadow Plane (which is now a transitive plane and allows PCs to access alternate Prime Material Planes and their cosmologies). In addition, an expanse known as the Infinite Staircase can also act as a transitive "plane" of sorts that also allows access to other regions of the multiverse. Of special consideration at this point is the fact that a number of the planes of gods from the 2e Great Wheel cosmology have no basis or representation in the 3e Great Tree cosmology of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting. Also, the original domains of the gods on the planes of the 2e Great Wheel are now recognised as full and proper planes in the 3e Great Tree -- complete and stable environments under the control of the deity that resides there. So basically, the Abyss - as it is conceptualised in the GREYHAWK campaign setting - is NOT the same as the Abyss as conceptualised in the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 14:49:13
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I'll note further that this article is currently in the process of being updated -- and will include references to some of the more recent planar changes noted in both novels and sourcebooks over the last year.
I also want to change some of the sections around and expand on a few minor points.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 Feb 2007 14:50:21 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 15:26:51
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| In 2e Planescape's material did overwrite many of the FR material since Planescape connected every setting together. So, the ToT novel is outdated compared to On Hallowed Ground and so Gray's source is more valid. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 16:09:46
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| In reading up more on the subject in PGtF, that source strongly suggests the soul of the deceased goes directly to the Fugue Plane. The Fugue Plane stands independent of the other planes in the World Tree and is accessed only by 1) the servants of deities who call souls to their deity's realm, 2) the baatezu who can take souls to the Abyss (the lemure offer), and 3) tanar'ri who occasionally break through to steal souls. PGtF states "the Fugue Plane exists outside the normal cosmology of Toril. Souls naturally travel from the Material Plane to the Fugue Plane at death." There is no mention, or even a suggestion, that the soul passes through any other planes on the weay to the Fugue Plane. Although discussion of the Astral Plane in FR's "World Tree" model outlined in PGtF pertains to planar travel by the living, it may be worth noting that Toril's Astral Plane operates differently from the formless cloud of the generic D&D cosmology. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Yeah, you'll only have one deity you devote yourself to, and is most like yourself, as Wooly says. Offering a prayer at some random time to a god isn't true worship or devotion.
You see, I've always felt that idea is more a result of monotheistic bias rather than something that reflects the truth (and even if one is non-religious, in this day and age it is highly probable most people posting on this board, and this kind of board, are from a monotheistic culture).
There are and have been cultures in which it is not at all unusual to worship and be devoted to more than one deity. This should definitely be the case in a setting like the FR, where no one god is supreme and can offer everything to mortals. I grew up in a Judeo-Christian culture which taught that there is one primeval, all-powerful God and that one cannot serve two masters...however, does that mean it's not humanly possible to do exactly that? Especially in a different culture that has different ideas about the powers and purposes of supernatural beings? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Feb 2007 19:17:15 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:29:52
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| I'm not finding anything in FRCS or PGtF that helps answer the original question. Given FR's polytheism, apparently it's left up to the DM and player work out which deity's servant comes to collect the soul (when a soul is judged worthy as such by a deity). The DM is the final arbiter, of course. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm not finding anything in FRCS or PGtF that helps answer the original question. Given FR's polytheism, apparently it's left up to the DM and player work out which deity's servant comes to collect the soul (when a soul is judged worthy as such by a deity). The DM is the final arbiter, of course.
Personally, that's the way I would prefer it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The information about souls losing their mortal memories comes from 2e lore--most notably the sourcebook On Hallowed Ground. As far as I know this lore has not been rewritten or contradicted in any 3e material so I presume it is still valid
Sorry, it's not cannon.
You are quoting a Planescape source, and I am referencing a Forgotten Realms novel (Prince of Lies, I believe).
2e, wrong setting, wrong cosmology... sorry, it just doesn't fly.
Well, it WAS canon in 2e, and nothing in 3e overides it. In fact, the 3e MOTP seems to support that the mechanic has been preserved. One of the rules of construction says that 2e lore is preserved unless it is overwritten by a later source, so that is why i believe this lore is still canon.
If you want an example from a novel to support my interpretaion, I believe that there was a petitioner of Finder Wyvernspur in a Realms novel, I think it was Tymora's Luck, who may have had her memory wiped by her death per this mechanic if I recall correctly.
I will agree with you that the subject just hasn't been addressed sufficiently in a very long time, so it is hard to say just where exactly canon would fall on the matter at this point. I have given you my most educated guess, but your mileage may vary and as a DM you should definitely go with the model that appeals to you. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 20:02:46
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| Follow-up question: what about the possible existence of "Houses of Death" in the Forgotten Realms? The Guidebook Defenders of the Faith describes the House of Death on p. 40 as a kind of mortuary located in every city of 1000+ that secretly investigates for undead infestations. It sounds like a wonderful feature to add to a gameworld. Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found? Again, I thought this was a good addition to the setting, but I'm beginning to understand better that the generic reference books don't necessarily pertain to every D&D setting. |
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messiah omega
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 02:07:00
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| regarding who gets the soul in question: prehaps the truth to who gets the soul of the polytheist is closer to lolth and eliestrees (sp?) sava game, but on a grander scale with all of the gods playing? |
messiah omega |
Edited by - messiah omega on 20 Feb 2007 02:13:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 02:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Follow-up question: what about the possible existence of "Houses of Death" in the Forgotten Realms? The Guidebook Defenders of the Faith describes the House of Death on p. 40 as a kind of mortuary located in every city of 1000+ that secretly investigates for undead infestations. It sounds like a wonderful feature to add to a gameworld. Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found? Again, I thought this was a good addition to the setting, but I'm beginning to understand better that the generic reference books don't necessarily pertain to every D&D setting.
I don't see a need for such -- Kelemvor's clergy is already pretty anti-undead, and their church is enough of an organization. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 03:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found?
You could totally add this into your Realms if you want to. Nothing in FR lore forbids it. You could make this a civil fraternity of morticians, you could make it a branch of the church of Kelemvor. It could be an order of monks. There are a ton of ways to incorporate this into your campaign.
Kelemvor wasn't always the god of the dead. After all, Kelemvor has only recently acquired this portfolio around 1368 DR. Back when Cyric, and before him Myrkul, were lords of the dead, the undead were not so frowned upon.
City officials or clergy of other faiths might have had an interest in making sure the recently dead were not undeadified, to protect the populace. Such an institution might have been around a lot longer than any similar groups sponsored by the church of Kelemvor. Even if K's peeps have got the dead watch thing well in hand in recent years, traditions are slow to die out. So the House of Death could easily continue on as a parallel institution. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 04:43:19
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Is "undeadified" a word? 
Good points, Gray. I keep forgetting that Kel is still a newbie.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 05:39:30
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| i see it as an arm of Lathanders Church, with the recent merging with a similar arm of Kelemvors Chruch (and maybe as a semifar shot Finder Wyvernspur's), making a offshot group of Clerics, Monks, Paladins and others battleing undeath |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 07:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I will agree with you that the subject just hasn't been addressed sufficiently in a very long time, so it is hard to say just where exactly canon would fall on the matter at this point. I have given you my most educated guess, but your mileage may vary and as a DM you should definitely go with the model that appeals to you.
Sorry Gray, I understand where you're coming from, but the concept of just 'forgetting yourself' after you die is just so repulsive to me that it sets off my internal alarms. In Greek mythology, souls who were bad in life were punished, souls who were good were rewarded (and remembered their lives), but the rest just sort of lived in a 'ghetto of the dead', neither good nor bad, and after a time they slowly forgot their mortal existance (and when you look at it in terms of eternity, thats sort of a charitable thing). I like this model better (and seems to be the way it was represented in the novel) because it makes more sense that you would not 'instantly forget' who you are, that goes against every myth, folktale, fantasy and Sci-fi I ever read, it's just so... PESSIMISTIC. Why would ANYONE care where they went after they die, when for all intents and purposes they cease to exist at the moment of death. Sure, your soul lives on, but thats not YOU (according to RAW), you are stuck in some little bubble floating in Astral Space. That sounds more like Sci-fi then fantasy to me, like something out of the matrix.
The whole religion thing just sort of loses its meaning if no matter what we are all going to end up empty vessels.
Also, what if a soul was in hurry on its way back to the prime and grab the wrong memories? 
To address the origianl topic again - I think if you were a dedicated practitioner of a faith, even if you paid lip service to other gods, a representative of your god would swing by and pick you up. Probably the more 'devout' you are, the quicker you get taken. Saints go first class, sinners get bumped to coach. If you never worshipped anybody but believed in the gods, you might want to try pleading your case to one of the reps. If you didn't believe AT ALL (no faith), then you would go before Kelemvor to be judged, to decide if you were 'faithless' or merely 'false'. In the case of false, a rep from your god, almost like a cosmic lawyer, might be present to argue your case for you, promisimg Kel to punish you on their end (which is probably preferrable). All the gods would probably have 'embassies' within kel's courthouse, to determine if you are one of 'theirs'. In cases where you worshipped more then two gods almost equally, then you might have a real court battle between opposing 'attornys'. I just picture an Archon defending a soul, and a Ta'nari prosecuting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 13:33:15
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As to the memory question, here's an interesting FR tidbit:
PGtF notes that the River of Blood connects nearly all of fiendish planes (which constitutes a huge portion of the World Tree) are connected, excluding only the Supreme Throne and Demonweb Pits. A mortal who falls into this river, or swims in it, loses all memory. This seem to be written with planar travel by the living in mind, though. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 14:54:37
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Re: working the institution of the House of Death into FR, I probably should have started a separate topic for it. But I see the House of Death as being integral to efforts to restore the dead to life, an issue raised in this thread. For example, if the House of Death staff determines that the deceased is infected with undeath, the corpse must be destroyed. And similarly when House of Death determines that the character was killed with a death effect, they would advise that the soul cannot be returned to life. Also, it raises a similar question to the topic starter about FR's polytheism with respect to death (see below).
I would think the House of Death's secret mission would traditionally have been of greatest interest to Lathanderites, and they'd probably take the lead in the organization as the institution formed over the centuries. In more recent years since Kelemvor became judge of the dead, his clergy would have assumed an equal role at the top of the hierarchy.
But what I really like about this institution, is that (at least as described in Defenders of the Faith) anyone is free to join regardless of race, class, or faith--just as long as they are committed to protecting against the undead and stamping them out wherever they may be found. I would imagine this would sometimes make for some very unusual relationships.
Since it seems likely that in FR the churches of Lathander and Kelemvor would be the administrators of such an institution, would they allow members of inimical faiths to join the House of Death staff? It's another type of polytheism question also related to death. Since it is widely known that most people worship a variety of deities, is the attitude toward polytheism fairly tolerant?
Will the clergy of Lathander and Kelemvor be willing to overlook a follower of... Shar, let's say... among the staff of the House of Death? Remember the House of Death keeps its true mission as investigators and hunters of undead a secret from the general public. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Feb 2007 15:19:37 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 15:11:08
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One of the biggest difficulties I'm finding in figuring this whole deal out (for myself since we really don't have a good canon model) is the relative "value" of a soul.
In other words, does the lifetime of faith and worship (or placation) mean more to a god than the soul of that worshiper? ie. Over a lifetime a soul puts out X units of worship power for the gods and when that lifetime is up the soul is worth Y units of worship power. What values do X and Y have?
Basically, the way it's working in my head right now is that;
Kyle goes through life, worshiping and placating as wanted/needed. Kyle then dies. Kyle goes to the Fugue Plane. Kyle has worshipped Chauntea and Lathander the most out of all the gods and "qualifies" to be taken by either of them* At this point it's up to the gods to figure out which one will take him (and since it's Chauntea and Lathander they'll probably have a nice civil discussion about it, if it were between Umberlee and Talos it might be a bit less civil *g*)
I hope that makes sense, I'm still a bit stupid from being sick so forgive me if I left out something of my thoughts ;D
*This is a . . . newer thought on this for myself, it runs along the lines of "A soul helps to empower the God who accepts the soul into it's plane but the soul empowers the God only in as much as the soul has faith towards the God. ie. Kyle worshiped Chauntea and Lathander most but also placated Talos, Cyric and a host of other dieties, prayed to Sune, the Triad, etc. but since Kyle spent the bulk of his "worship" on Chauntea and Lathander he is best qualified to go with them. If another diety were to pick him up they would have a harder time picking him up (ie. if a more "qualified" god were to try and pick up the soul at the same time as a "less qualfied" god then the soul would go to the more "qualified" god due to the ease which they can assimilate the soul) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:45:31
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Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Feb 2007 18:50:25 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 20:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying.
There's a larger cosmological question of the point and purpose of the entire afterlife system. Are mortal souls ultimately nothing more than ergs of divine energy that serve to increase a deity's power, by being added to its plane?
One of the things that characterized the ancient Greeks' view of the gods, is that they saw mortals as utterly subject to the whims of the (very capricious) gods. I see FR's cosmolgy pretty much along the same lines. Near as I can tell, mortals exist for gods' amusment/uses. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Feb 2007 20:07:41 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying.
There's a larger cosmological question of the point and purpose of the entire afterlife system. Are mortal souls ultimately nothing more than ergs of divine energy that serve to increase a deity's power, by being added to its plane?
Yes, that is a great question.
quote:
One of the things that characterized the ancient Greeks' view of the gods, is that they saw mortals as utterly subject to the whims of the (very capricious) gods. I see FR's cosmolgy pretty much along the same lines. Near as I can tell, mortals exist for gods' amusment/uses.
To give my opinion on that, I'd have to know more about the reason (if there is one) for the creation of man (and/or other sentient beings) in the FR...and honestly, I can't recall any explanations about that. If humans were created because "the gods felt lonely" or something, then yes, I would have to agree with that last statement. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:50:44
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I guess my biggest bottom line in all of this is that while I like the idea that the people in Faerun has some idea what happens to their souls, or at least they think they have an idea about it, that they don't know for sure. I don't really like the idea that people would know that they spend X amount of time in this state, then transform into this, and that this plane is accessable to this, and that they remember this, but not that . . . a general idea about the after life is interesting, but a detailed and sure knowledge about exactly what is going to happen is kind of . . . too well defined for my taste.
I like the fact that the few characters that have come back don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the plane they were in, but they have more of a vague notion of what it was like (I got to feeling that Quenthel, for example, had more of a general feeling until she actually SAW the things that she saw before). |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 00:47:29
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| As to the question of what people might know... Well, for the most learned, since planar travel is possible by the living it might be a lot. The Fugue plane is off limits. But planar travelers can visit the other planes, both fiendish and celestial. What might they learn from such visits and bring back to Toril? One would think that over the millenia, quite a store of knowledge would have acrued. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 11:17:36
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You know, the more I think about the whole thing, the less I like it.
We're just a bunch of Eveready batteries to a bunch of uber-powers?
Also, I think the biggest problem we all have coping with this is that there is no real world model to look at. Even in polytheistic religions, the worshippers of various gods all went to the SAME afterlife. Faerun's pantheon isn't a TRUE pantheon at all, because each god has his own private little 'heaven'. If you don't make it into any god's heaven then you wind up in the Hell that best matches your alignment (also a BIG problem with multiple hells, they way I see it. Seperate levels in a SINGLE hell would work better). By 'hells' I mean any plane with fiends, not just Bator or whatever they're calling it these days.
Then what about Heaven? I mean all the 'Heavens'. If good people go to their gods private paradise, and bad people go to hell, then what purpose do the upper planes serve? No one ends up there? Kind of weird, no? Where's the balance.
I've been re-thinking this whole Wheel vs Tree thing for awhile now. I always thought I preferred the Wheel, but now that I think about it the wheel doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. Don't get me wrong, I love the Planescape setting, but now I'm thinking it's best left on its own and not mixing it with the individual prime settings. Things are funky enough with one set of gods.
The whole model needs a rework from the ground up, because nobody in their right mind would worship an evil god. Even if you got into Bane's private playground I'm sure Sune's would still put it to shame. I mean really, does anyone want to spend eternity listening to Cyric go on about himself? I think I'd prefer to be whipped in Loviatar land.
Just my two cents. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2007 11:18:02 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 15:07:11
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Well, it clearly stated that those souls judged worthy to be called to a deity's plane will enjoy rewards for eternity as they serve their deity there as imortals. And if it is known in mortal life that souls in the afterlife are treated to rewards throughout eternity for faithfully serving their deity, then that is certainly a strong incentive to be a true worshipper.
Now in the case of evil religions, this amounts to whatever gives such type of characters their 'jollies'. An evil deity who has been served faithfully will reward his or her worshipper with whatever those types of rewards are pleasing to the follower.
It may well be that from the deity's perspective, the more mortal souls that get converted to imortal and added to their plane increases their power. But from the mortal's point of view that's basically irrelevant. There's still a powerful incentive to worship.
MotP states that souls who have been judged worthy can even pass on to greater mysterious realities unknown even to the deities themselves. So the afterlife is not necessarily even a static existence. I.e., for more adventurous spirits there may be neverending room for growth and exploration, etc.
One would think that on Toril a substantial body of knowledge of the planes--and then the nature of the afterlife--has been acquired from from communications with the divine servants to the high priests of their faiths (perhaps,although rarely, directly from deities themselves), and from the living adventurers who have recorded their planar travels. You would think that priests of every faith are aware that those judged Faithless and False suffer a horrifying eternal fate--a certain hell. And therefore it would make sense that this would be taught to the masses. The question then only becomes which faiths to choose.
But one question about polytheism in FR that I think should not be overlooked, is to what extent worship of inimical deities risks alienating both gods! Let's say an Amnian merchant family lord with powerful interests in wheat production sincerely worships Chauntea, as she is Lord of Grain. He also worships Talona, since attempts to assassinate his rivals must be conducted secretly (lest the Council of Six ruin him for such an act of open hostility between merchant houses). Chauntea and Talona are dire enemies. And when the soul's judgment time comes, both deity's may be end up being put off by this character's mutual worship of the other goddess. The soul may be end up being called by neither.
So while there many people do routinely placate a wide variety of gods, it might also be common knowledge that there may be very real and dire consequences for insincere/superficial worship, and the inherent 'conflicts of interest' in worhshipping certain contellations of deities, that in turn could work to distil 'true' worship down quite a bit. In other words, prayers may routinely be uttered with sincere respect for the deity in question, depending on the needs of a situation. But it is still smartest for people to choose either a single deity, or a collection of deity's that aren't at odds, as the object of truest devotion. Otherwise they risk an eternity in hell. And here it's not a matter of conjecture, in this world of arcane magic and divine spells and miracles, planar travel, and where the gods themselves literally just walked among mortals (and warred!). |
Edited by - Lemernis on 22 Feb 2007 15:09:23 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 16:00:40
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Markustay,
First, I agree with you're comments on our frame of reference. The whole question of souls, destination, patrons, etc is such a foreign concept to anything I've really encountered in life (and in all the time I've been playing D&D I just never thought about it until I started really hammering away on NPC motivations {OH I'D GIVE MY RIGHT ARM FOR A GOOD ECONOMIC MODEL IN FR! *g*})
I'm gonna have to work on my thoughts on worshipers and their relation to the gods before typing it out, right now it'd just end up as drivel :)
I'll take a crack at the worship of evil gods though :)
The appeal of a god such as Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, etc is that they promise you that you are important. That you are special. That when they have all the power you'll have a piece of that pie. While Lathander wants you to help every sap on the block Bane wants you to take the world by the throat and make it bow down to you. While the Triad wants you to promote "honor" Cyric wants you to take what you want, from whoever you want and get away with it. And they promised that you were important, that you weren't just another cog in the wheel, YOU ARE THE DAMNED WHEEL! (alright, I dunno what I was thinking, "cog in the wheel". . . that's just awful *g*)
::sigh:: stupid multitasking. . . I have no idea where I was going with this post, but I like it, so posted it shall be *g* |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 17:31:56
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I've been thinking about this some more since in another thread we were discussing who in their right mind would find Cyric's church appealing. I.e., given what other gods in FR offer, respectively, what's the appeal? There were some decent arguments for very immediate tangible earthly benefits. But the faith itself really comes across as something that ultimately is only going to appeal to crazed psychopaths (just read the descriptions of his temples in F&P).
Also--what rewards in the afterlife can anyone actually count on from the Prince of Lies?
And yet Cyric has an "immense" following throughout Faerun? Huh?
But after getting cued into the nature of the afterlife in the Forgotten Realms specifically, things like that make more little more sense.
Well, maybe not with Cyric specifcally, I suppose. There's no way to really trust a liar.
But at least where Lawful or Neutral evil gods are concerned, I can see that if most people have genuine faith in unending rewards in an eternal afterlife, the more inclined they would be accept the tenets of faiths that seem to have questionable benefits in the short term in the mortal existence on Toril. If they are truly faithful in a single mortal existence, they have the rest of eternity to enjoy an imortal existence that they at least believe they will be satisfying to them. It may be evil, but it's their "heaven," or "eternal paradise."
Also, the whole 'eternal hell' side of the equation created by the fate of the Faithless and False... that also pushes people into sincere worship, as I mentioned. And in choosing a deity, well, people often don't excercise very good judgment in life. So it isn't that hard to see them most earnestly worshipping the gods that seem, from their myopic perspective, to benefit them most according to their personal needs and circumstances. Rather than from some deeper, inner spiritual convictions. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 22 Feb 2007 17:45:14 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 20:43:36
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Man, the more we talk about this the less I like the idea of patron gods and churches devoted to a single god. But just to take a slight bit and comment on it;
quote:
Well, maybe not with Cyric specifcally, I suppose. There's no way to really trust a liar.
Yeah, but he's the god of liars, mortals are gonna buy whatever he's sellin. That's one of the problems with how much we know as readers/players/DMs, we know for a fact, without a doubt, that Cyric doesn't care and is lying. Mortals don't know this for a fact though and even if they knew it for a fact Cyric, and his followers, are incredibly good liars. :) |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 21:52:42
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Like I said, also people just often don't use very good judgment. ;)
Actually, Cyric's dogma is mainly about putting Cyric above all else, rather than about how wonderful lies, deception, trickery, and illusion are. It does exhort followers to use 'any means to an end' strategies, but it's not like the dogma says "tell a lie every day," or something like that.
Anyway, the afterlife schema makes more sense of the faith's relentless emphasis on empowering Cyric. Without a fair certainty of being imortally rewarded for eternity for services rendered in mortal life it would be shakier. It's like too little is promised to followers in the short term, in the life on Toril. But viewed on the eternal scale there's a payoff. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 23 Feb 2007 13:48:27 |
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Polytheism and the soul's destination
