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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 14:19:29
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Weapon masters of the drow would definately have to be great commanders. The lousy ones would have been wiped out. Princess Alusair and Azoun themselves would have been great commanders. Breunor Battlehammer too. Zaranda star, current queen of thetyr wouldn't bee too bad too. and that includes his husband consort ex-Lhaeo.
Just an opinion, when they say Chosen are insane, i think Ed probably meant when during with sentimental or matters of manners or peer pressure. All chosens suffer from a healthy disrespect for peer opinions. Military or judgement wise, I doubt the chosen suffer from such a long life. In fact I believe a long life enables them to learn quite a lot. After all, if the chosen have problem whether in military or judgement. None of them would have been leaders of anything and so far, all chosen are leaders of something. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 22:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Great Milatary Commanders do not always win. Unless you use sucess solely as a measure of "Great". The best use of tactics and startigy is what should be the neasure of a great leader. The williness to consider advive of others clearly should be consider as a posible great atibute.
Seiveril did not merely consider the advice of others. He relied on the advice of others. If being a good puppet for people who are more skilled than you are is a way to be "great", then yeah, I suppose by that definition we could say Seiveril was a great commander.
A lot of people who are disagreeing with me are talking about leaders. The topic said military commanders, not leaders in general. As far as being a great military commander goes, that "title" should be bestowed upon Fflar, not Seiveril (and not just because Seiveril got himself killed, either). A truly great military commander SHOULD have some idea of what to do all by himself, especially on the battlefield when people are dying and he is the one being looked to for orders.
And I agree with Mace's "deluded visionary" idea. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Feb 2007 22:47:02 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 22:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Just an opinion, when they say Chosen are insane, i think Ed probably meant when during with sentimental or matters of manners or peer pressure. All chosens suffer from a healthy disrespect for peer opinions.
I agree, but that doesn't make them insane as far as I'm concerned. But then again, when I think "insane" I think of the psychological/psychiatric sense of the word--as in, being more or less detached from reality and unable to make decisions for oneself in most if not all areas of life.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Feb 2007 22:46:21 |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 06:42:45
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I would agree that the Chosen are not insane by modern standards. I think that it is more likely that they are slightly divorced from human emotions when regarding the expendability of underlings. If the "greater good", or Mystra's orders, means that a person is to be sent out to die, then they are unlikely to hesitate. Even those who are renowned for their compassion, like Alustrial, are willing to send people on suicide missions (ie hellgate keep). I tend to view them as seeing the world as a chess game, with people as the pawns to do their dirty work.
As for the best military leaders, I would be going with the upper echelons of the Red Knights or Anhurs clergy.
Seiveril was an entrepreneur with a vision, not a military leader. |
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BeastlyIrishman
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 23:20:55
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| Bruenor Battlehammer, or Banak Brawnanvil, they always lead they're boys in and out of battle even if they're outnumbered 10 to 1, gotta love that Dwarven Resolve. I'll hand it to the chosen, they are excellent, but they also have unfair advantages granted by Mystra when considering pure honed skill and experience,The Delzoun are not to be trifled with. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 14:59:03
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| The chosen's detachment probably also comes from a thouroughly well understanding of life after death. Its kinda hard to be very afraid of dying or letting others die for a good cause if you know that you have a goddess who can and will help u summon them up for a chat anytime. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 02:00:19
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Although they are individually very powerful, I hardly agree that the Chosen would be brilliant military commanders. Together they are a very efficient "strike force", but leading armies in battle? They may also be great tacticians, but I don't recall any of them ever commanding troops in battle (except Dove in Shadowdale?).
Even then, most commoners/low-level warriors would probably obey them out of fear or awe, rather than out of respect or being inspired by them... (Alustriel or Laeral might be an exception to this) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 02:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by BeastlyIrishman
Bruenor Battlehammer, or Banak Brawnanvil, they always lead they're boys in and out of battle even if they're outnumbered 10 to 1, gotta love that Dwarven Resolve. I'll hand it to the chosen, they are excellent, but they also have unfair advantages granted by Mystra when considering pure honed skill and experience,The Delzoun are not to be trifled with.
IMHO Bruenor isn't a great military genius... it just happens that he always seems to have very efficient NPCs at his command. If it ever came to be that the Flaming Fist would lay siege to the Mithral Hall, my money would definitely be on Duke Eltan!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 11:41:34
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| I'd have to give a vote for the Lord Marshal of Coryrs eastern march. Alas his name escapes me at the moment. Garath (?) Dragonsbane should also be high on the list. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:49:49
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| How about the military leaders in the empire's trilogy? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 16:58:04
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I've actually noticed a huge lack of military leaders in the Forgotten Realms. Such people found empires, and the Harpers and others wouldn't like that very much. The apparent city-state mentality of the realms (meaning small localized powers) seems to dominate, with some exceptions the farther south you go from the Dales and western heartlands...areas where the Harpers have less influence and control. Dang Harpers!
Magic is a force that doesn't usually allow for stable kingdoms either...what use are your elite legions of veteran soldiers when a trio of wizards armed with a few wands could essentially decimate your now apparently useless army? The high level of magic in the Forgotten Realms allows for things like the defeat of the Horde...something Azoun wouldn't have been able to accomplish without the aid of magic. If the Khan had brought with him Red Wizard Mercenaries or some such (which I never figured out why they weren't with him since they were "allies" after a sort) then Azoun and company would have been flattened in Thesk and Impiltur would have been then threatened. That's all speculation of course...
To me, the best living military commanders would have to be those who were familiar with the uses of magic AND mundane arms and how to best use them on the battle-field. That is why the Chosen are some of the best I suppose...simply because they know magic so very well; and I'm not sure which of them DOESN'T have a level or so of Fighter, Ranger or some such.
Personally, I would like to see something come in the upcoming 4e Realms about a kingdom or empire being forged during the spellplague by a simple fighter who takes his chance at not having wizards interfere in his conquests!
To end all this, my personal favorite military commander in the Forgotten Realms is Jarlaxle Baenre. Any man that can come back from being sacrificed to a goddess by his own mother and then turn around to found a powerful force in the midst of a society where such a thing simply should not exist has my vote! Jarlaxle has the skills on every level to be the best military commander in the Realms as far as I'm concerned. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:15:03
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| I am! I mean, my character is! |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 20:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Mr. Greenwood has indicated that Chosen are insane because of long life, as such it strikes me that none of the living or undead Chosen would be the best tactical or startigical milatary leaders "living" at current time. This does not mean they can win a battle drawing on knowledge, but long range goals are a matter that might be beyound an insane character ability. Im my opinion they should be removed from any consideration for the "best military commanders of today's Faeru".
There are different kinds of insanity. Besides, what do you define as insanity? Someone who has lived for over a thousand years could look upon the short-lived humans who mess things up regularly and conclude that THEY are the insane ones. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 21:42:45
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| Gareth Dragonsbane |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 14:43:36
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I don't think we can settle the issue for best commander but I can definately think of the worst. Look among the demon and devils for your answer!!!!
Milleniums and eons of incessant warfare and not even a single minute where one side seemed on the verge of total victory? Those leaders must be sure losers. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 11:16:32
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Interesting topic.
Of the ones we have seen in the Realms, several named here have displayed military ability.
Seiveril Miritar was an inexperienced general, and as such, he wasn't great at it from the start. But we mustn't forget that he was an experienced and capable leader and administrator, despite his lack of military command experience. He forged a cohesive army and high command out of what was essentially an ad hoc grouping of people united mostly by religion.
I'd say that his accomplishment was very impressive and the fact that he was aided by brilliant subordinates does not detract from it. Selecting a good general staff is a very important facet of functioning well in a high command.
And let's not forget what didn't happen in his army. Political and racial divides did not interfere with the purity of purpose and unity of the elven host, despite it being composed of troops from nearly all major subraces and more than one elven realm. That alone is an accomplishment that marks Seveiril as a truly remarkable leader.
Bruenor Battlehammer, as we see him, is both a great king and a great military leader. He's beloved by his people, due to his personal charm (which for a dwarf is considerable), courage and evident concern for the good of his subjects. He's stubborn and resilient, but still able to delegate responsibility and even change his plans on the basis of expert advice.
Few real world military leaders combine his strategic clarity of vision, tactical innovation and effortless administrative genius. His dwarven troops are so disciplined and organised that they literally never suffer from supply problems, low morale or indecision. Small unit commanders are capable of acting on their own and apparently always understand the strategic goals of the campaign.
While it's easy to write that off as Bruenor's good luck in commanding such brilliant troops, let's keep in mind that his troops mostly consist of dwarves that he trained and organised. The quality of Mitril Hall's military must be attributed to the ones responsible for their formation and training, namely Bruenor and his chosen generals. And speaking of his generals, their quality also reflects positively upon him as a leader.
His weaknesses are mostly in areas not traditionally considered a part of military command. He's a poor diplomat, never having learned to lie effectively, and that means he's often reduced to fighting without effective allies. He's also not as far-travelled and cosmopolitian as other military leaders, which means that he might be vulnerable to exotic troop types and new tactics.
Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr of Cormyr is described by Azoun IV (himself a legendary warrior) as the best battlemaster in the realm. While I'm not certain events bear that out, she certainly does demonstrate quick-thinking under pressure, courage and determination in many places.
She's brave to the point of recklessness and inspires that some courage in her troops. She has a comprehensive formal education in military science second only to high-ranking priests of the Red Knight, an advantage not to be overlooked when it comes to confronting things outside her direct experience. Her experience, meanwhile, is vast. She's been fighting in one form or another for most of her adult life and she's generally been very successful. She understands the use of magic in warfare, is very good at utilising her own War Wizards against the enemy and at coordinating the movements of seperated formations.
All in all, Alusair at least has the potential to function as a truly marvellous Lord High Marshal of Cormyr. The fact that the army she'd be leading is one of the most professional in the Realms and has recently been tested in a bloody conflict under her command is another advantage she has. Were I a Sembian merchant lord or a Zhent warlord, I'd be very hesitant to draw the ire of the Steel Regent, despite the apparent weakness of the realm after the Devil Dragon War.
Weaknesses are mostly in her general staff. Caladnei appears to me far weaker than Vangerdahast and in a contest depending heavily on the mustering of War Wizards and magical might (such as agains the Shades), Cormyr is at a grave disadvantage.
Alusair is also poor at the more political aspects of the job, meaning that she has difficulty forging coalitions and working with disparate interests. That would weaken Cormyr if it came to a war (and it does, in truth, weaken in now in times of peace). Her father, while no diplomat by nature, had learned surprising tact during his long reign and it would take Alusair long indeed to match his skill at unifying under his command both proud nobles, prickly bureacrats, vulgar merchants and the vast number of Cormyr's other people.
Lady Kaitlin Tindall Bloodhawk was possessed by the Red Knight herself during the Time of Troubles and fought brilliantly in command of her mercenary band, the Company of the Red Falcon. However, it is diffucult to seperate the abilities of the mortal from that of the deity, which argues against elevating her immediately among the ranks of the greatest.
On the other hand, Lady Kaitlin was an experienced leader of men and she was chosen by the Goddess of Strategy and Tactics. And it's far from unlikely that the Red Knight favoured her with an increased understanding of warfare even after the episode. So she's at least a contender.
As for the Chosen, I do not believe I'd include them in any such write-up. Khelben is a geopolitical genius, but when it comes to military strategy and tactics, neither he nor Laeral distinguished themselves in the war for Everaska. For one thing, for god-powered archmages, they seem depressingly immobile and slow in their strategy.
One would think that some faster method was available to the learned Khelben than marching the army all the way. For months, during which they strategic situation got steadily worse and Khelben was unavailable for a lot of vital tasks. Teleporting a few each day would probably have been faster, let alone using just some of the many portals Khelben is supposed to know about. For crying out loud, he uses a portal as his larder!
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare. It may be that her sons are better generals, but that begs the question why at least one of them (since there isn't any shortage of sons) was not present at a battle where the ruler of Silverymoon almost died.
The Simbul is so temperemental and reckless that only the famously incompetent Red Wizards could have failed to defeat her. Yes, she is enormously personally powerful, but she uses that power in reckless and thoughtless ways that leave one stunned. If the Red Wizards could once, just once, muster enough self-control to carry out a coordinated plan without infighting, they'd find it easy enough to goad her into a situation where she could easily be overwhelmed by superior numbers. They'd take brutal losses, but they'd win.
In any Realmslore of which I'm aware, Dove and Storm do not lead more than small guerilla units. While they might do so with flair and elan, they do not seem to have a strategic goal in mind. Shadowdale remains independent, yes, but in many ways the constant low-grade warfare with the Zhents has a human cost far beyond that which might be endengered by coming to a livable arrangement in which Shadowdale retains home rule, but gives the Zhents trade concessions and allows them overall control.
And if that's unacceptable, it remains for any commanders in Shadowdale to find an acceptable alternative and work toward it*. Resistance, without a specific goal beyond killing the enemy, is nothing but needless violence. Brilliant tactical success in the pursuit of no strategic goal is about as useful as failure.
And saying that Dove and Storm cannot be blamed for the political situation in the Dales is disingenius. The entire raison d'etre of the Harpers is to politically manipulate events in service of the Balance. The Balance is not served by having Cormyr, Sembia, Hillsfar and Zhentil Keep fight over the Dales until nothing remains of them but charred ruins and one state emerges more powerful than the rest.
I do not recall Quilé having been tested as a military commander and while Elminster undoubtedly has, such events have occured out of our sight. As such, I cannot rate them as generals or leaders.
*A kingdom of the Dales, allied with Cormyr and Sembia, would be such an alternative. If necessary, such a state could be a federal state with an organisation similar to the Swiss Cantons, but a divided and weak system like prevails today is basically an invitation for the surrounding states to gobble the Dales up one-by-one. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 12:38:43
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Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 13:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
You mean the army that was nearly annihilated against the Duergar in Condemnation?
I'd say that much like other drow armies, it is too riven by internal politics and paranoia to ever be a reliable military force. Added to that, Andzrel Baenre does not appear to have any strategic vision, being little more than a tactical commander under a council of short-sighted megalomaniacs who are incapable of cooperation.
Individually, drow elves are fearsome fighters. In small units, even, they are capable of startling coordination learned by long practice. In large formation, they are nearly unmanagable and, in fact, usually end up working at cross purposes.
And let's not forget that both Andzrel and Zal'therra are lesser kin, cousins or descendents of far mighter drow. And that those mightier drow were still not capable enough as military leaders to subdue one small dwarven kingdom. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 15:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As for the Chosen, I do not believe I'd include them in any such write-up. Khelben is a geopolitical genius, but when it comes to military strategy and tactics, neither he nor Laeral distinguished themselves in the war for Everaska. For one thing, for god-powered archmages, they seem depressingly immobile and slow in their strategy.
One would think that some faster method was available to the learned Khelben than marching the army all the way. For months, during which they strategic situation got steadily worse and Khelben was unavailable for a lot of vital tasks. Teleporting a few each day would probably have been faster, let alone using just some of the many portals Khelben is supposed to know about. For crying out loud, he uses a portal as his larder!
I'd not use the events of that trilogy as a firm basis for anything. The main reason I so despise that trilogy is that the characters not created by the author all managed to be bungling idiots, despite what any previous Realmslore indicated. The author's characters, on the other hand, always had good advice (which was conveniently ignored) and always managed to do the right thing. I understand playing up your own characters, but making your characters look good by making everyone else act stupid and out of character is a very poor way of doing it.
Had Khelben been acting in character, he certainly would have created as many portals as necessary to get the army to Evereska. I can't see any reason that someone proven to be as smart and sneaky as him wouldn't have thought of that -- or why no one around him would have thought to suggest it. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 16:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
You mean the army that was nearly annihilated against the Duergar in Condemnation?
I'd say that much like other drow armies, it is too riven by internal politics and paranoia to ever be a reliable military force. Added to that, Andzrel Baenre does not appear to have any strategic vision, being little more than a tactical commander under a council of short-sighted megalomaniacs who are incapable of cooperation.
Individually, drow elves are fearsome fighters. In small units, even, they are capable of startling coordination learned by long practice. In large formation, they are nearly unmanagable and, in fact, usually end up working at cross purposes.
And let's not forget that both Andzrel and Zal'therra are lesser kin, cousins or descendents of far mighter drow. And that those mightier drow were still not capable enough as military leaders to subdue one small dwarven kingdom.
I do not forget much concerning the drow. The army of the Black Spider was set upon by House Dyrr as well as being attacked by serious foes (any army will have trouble fighting). That was not the army who repelled the foes at Menzo's doorstep nor the point. Rod was asking for military leaders, not un-/succesful armies.
So far, these two are ranked just below the top strata of House Baenre and as opposed to Star Trek or the like, the "Captain of the ship" ... ahem drow house usually does not walk into the fray. She uses her military commanders. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to push these or other drow into the list, just putting them forward as requested.
As for the mightier drow being unable to bash a duergar city into submission, they a) can only do so if the designers want them to (e.g. Blingdenstone, Ched Nasad) and b ) if the chances are good that they may succeed. Any kind of large-scale warfare in the Underdark is facing enormous difficulties (logistic-wise alone) and it is not the case that e.g. Gracklstugh is a toothless dwarven mine.
Anyway, this is not the thread to debate this. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 Oct 2008 16:09:50 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I do not forget much concerning the drow. The army of the Black Spider was set upon by House Dyrr as well as being attacked by serious foes (any army will have trouble fighting). That was not the army who repelled the foes at Menzo's doorstep nor the point. Rod was asking for military leaders, not un-/succesful armies.
Well, if a part of your army attacks the rest of it, I'd say that this constitutes a discipline problem. 
Rightly or wrongly, we hold the overall commander of any army responsible for the behaviour of those under him. The fact that Caesar's Gallic Army was a superb instrument of warfare directly reflects upon Caesar's competence as a general. He selected the leaders, recruited the troops and forged it into a cohesive whole.
Why then should we not hold drow commanders responsible for the failures of their troops? A truly great military leader might have been expected to know his troops well enough to be aware that they were actually fighting for the other side, could he not?
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
So far, these two are ranked just below the top strata of House Baenre and as opposed to Star Trek or the like, the "Captain of the ship" ... ahem drow house usually does not walk into the fray. She uses her military commanders. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to push these or other drow into the list, just putting them forward as requested.
As far as I can see, the lack of operational freedom for subordinate leaders is a weakness of drow armies. Also, due to a lack of experience with strategy (which is a province of the Matron Mothers), drow generals are usually not able or willing to adapt their tactical plan to a changing strategic situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for the mightier drow being unable to bash a duergar city into submission, they a) can only do so if the designers want them to (e.g. Blingdenstone, Ched Nasad) and b ) if the chances are good that they may succeed. Any kind of large-scale warfare in the Underdark is facing enormous difficulties (logistic-wise alone) and it is not the case that e.g. Gracklstugh is a toothless dwarven mine.
Anyway, this is not the thread to debate this.
But Menzoberranzan also failed to win against Mithril Hall, when possessed of a considerable superiority in manpower, magic and clerical aid.
And if logistical concerns make a given venture impractical, it is the duty of a military commander to state so. I recall no logistical problems being raised in the siege of Mithril Hall, only a lack of morale and unit cohesion. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not use the events of that trilogy as a firm basis for anything. The main reason I so despise that trilogy is that the characters not created by the author all managed to be bungling idiots, despite what any previous Realmslore indicated. The author's characters, on the other hand, always had good advice (which was conveniently ignored) and always managed to do the right thing. I understand playing up your own characters, but making your characters look good by making everyone else act stupid and out of character is a very poor way of doing it.
Had Khelben been acting in character, he certainly would have created as many portals as necessary to get the army to Evereska. I can't see any reason that someone proven to be as smart and sneaky as him wouldn't have thought of that -- or why no one around him would have thought to suggest it.
That is true enough. The RotA trilogy appears to be singularily bad at portraying many Realms NPCs. I expect Troy Denning will find it much easier to write in the New and Improved Realms, where he doesn't have to feature any other NPCs at all.
But then the problem becomes that we haven't seen Khelben or Laeral in their capacity as military leaders at all. Khelben functioned more as a spellcaster than leader in the Sahuagin attack on Waterdeep (I'm not sure who had overall command in that mess) and Laeral didn't appear to lead men there either.
Khelben appears to have many qualities which should make him a good military leader. He's intelligent, cool under pressure, quick to adapt and understands the motivations of other people. The one quality he conspiciously lacks, though, is the trust of other people. In that he is much like Vangerdahast, but at least the old Royal Magician is trusted by most War Wizards and Purple Dragons, whereas Khelben appears to be feared and distrusted by the vast majority of Waterhavians.
It is hard to imagine many people flocking to his banner or sacrificing their lives for him. Yes, he has the loyalty of his Moonstars and some other personal friends, often those who have taken the trouble to get to know him, but he'll never have an easy way with people or be accused of having the 'common touch'. While Azoun IV might have inspired love with a wink and a wave, Khelben does not have that quality. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 19:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not going to argue with it, I'm just curious about it. I also a bit confused--on one hand you say Alustriel should stick to politics, but on the other hand you say it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. By that, are you referring to the fact that she almost died at the battle for Mithril Hall (and I would agree that she didn't seem so "powerful" as a wizard in those scenes) and it's amazing she's still alive, or do you think she's not even that good at politics?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 19:53:28 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not going to argue with it, I'm just curious about it. I also a bit confused--on one hand you say Alustriel should stick to politics, but on the other hand you say it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. By that, are you referring to the fact that she almost died at the battle for Mithril Hall (and I would agree that she didn't seem so "powerful" as a wizard in those scenes) and it's amazing she's still alive, or do you think she's not even that good at politics?
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
Predictably, her Knights in Silver suffered terrible losses, losses which could have been prevented or minimised if they'd been adequately supported. In addition, she herself recklessly attacked drow wizards when she could have used guile and misdirection to achieve the same result.*
A combination of poor preparation and unthinking action on the battlefield led to a Pyrrhic victory.
It's frankly surprising that she hasn't suffered a worse defeat until now and been killed or deposed.
*Improved Invisibility, Nondetection and Wall of Fire until the copse was burning around them. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
What about the fact that she apparently didn't at least have someone knowledgable on hand (like one of her aforementioned sons) to help her prevent lot of the mistakes we're talking about? Again, I'm not really trying to argue about this, but in some of your other posts you said you consider it a mark of great leadership to have a good staff of experts, especially if one isn't actually that great at military leadership. So, aren't some of these major blunders enough reason to think that Alustriel overlooked something when it came to dispatching her army, even if she's among the best at, say, diplomacy? After all, Alustriel is the ruler of Silverymoon, not just a diplomat.
I just don't see how knowing how to dispatch an army (or knowing who can do a good job of it for you if you can't do it) isn't a part of politics.
quote:
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
No kidding. However, I have to be fair and point out that (as was the case with Khelben and Laeral in the RotAW trilogy), Alustriel is not RAS's character, and from what I remember of his earlier novels, RAS wrote of supposedly super-powerful wizards as mainly casting fireballs and lightening bolts and (for some reason) neglecting the more subtle and tactical spells that one would expect them to use. I would agree that how characters act in these novels is often all we have to go on, and as far as I know the Battle of Mithril Hall is the only one in which I recall Alustriel directly fighting in and/or acting as a general. But this kind of touches on whether or not the characters in novels acted as they "should have" given their abilities (or the lack thereof)--although that really is an entirely different debate. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 20:32:01 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:30:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
What about the fact that she apparently didn't at least have someone knowledgable on hand (like one of her aforementioned sons) to help her prevent lot of the mistakes we're talking about? Again, I'm not really trying to argue about this, but in some of your other posts you said you consider it a mark of great leadership to have a good staff of experts, especially if one isn't actually that great at military leadership. So, aren't some of these major blunders enough reason to think that Alustriel overlooked something when it came to dispatching her army, even if she's among the best at, say, diplomacy?
That makes her a poor leader, military or otherwise, but it doesn't speak for her political ability. It's possible to be a very good politician without being worth anything as a leader (Karl Rove springs to mind).
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
No kidding. However, I have to be fair and point out that (as was the case with Khelben and Laeral in the RotAW trilogy), Alustriel is not RAS's character, and from what I remember of his earlier novels, RAS wrote of supposedly super-powerful wizards as mainly casting fireballs and lightening bolts and (for some reason) neglecting the more subtle and tactical spells that one would expect them to use. I would agree that how characters act in these novels is often all we have to go on, and as far as I know the Battle of Mithril Hall is the only one in which I recall Alustriel directly fighting in and/or acting as a general. But this kind of touches on whether or not the characters in novels acted as they "should have" given their abilities (or the lack thereof)--although that really is an entirely different debate.
True enough.
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage. RAS appears to assume that wizards are more powerful than other characters of the same level (which holds true in most D&D incarnations I've heard about). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That makes her a poor leader, military or otherwise, but it doesn't speak for her political ability. It's possible to be a very good politician without being worth anything as a leader (Karl Rove springs to mind).
Then can you please define what it means to have "political ability", and tell me why you think Alustriel has it?
I really just want to better understand your view of her.
quote:
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage.
Which one? I'm getting a bit confused here. Even when RAS writes about Alustriel using spells, he generally just has her casting fireballs, as I recall--not exactly the pinnacle of her abilities. The point I tried to make in mentioning this is that RAS has never quite written wizards as "tacticians with spells" like, say, Ed Greenwood has. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 20:43:50 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Then can you please define what it means to have "political ability", and tell me why you think Alustriel has it?
I really just want to better understand your view of her.
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics. Real world people that I would rate as good politicians are Bill Clinton, Karl Rove, Tony Blair and Adolf Hitler. Note that this has nothing to do with what I think about their policies, but that I believe that they are skilled at manipulating people and opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage.
Which one? I'm getting a bit confused here. Even when RAS writes about Alustriel using spells, he generally just has her casting fireballs, as I recall--not exactly the pinnacle of her abilities. The point I tried to make in mentioning this is that RAS has never quite written wizards as "tacticians with spells" like, say, Ed Greenwood has.
The wizard I'm referencing is the battle mage in Calimport that Entreri faced. The same could apply to the drow wizard that Drizzt faced when he was young.
Alustriel, though, cast plenty of 7th+ level magics in the battle. She cast Chariot of Sustarre and probably Delayed Blast Fireballs. But I quite agree that her memorisation that day was faulty. She should have had Contingencies and Simbul's Spell Sequencers enough to be able to unleash multiple spells per round, not to mention that she should have made it difficult to target her by being invisible and undetectable. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 21:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Understood.
quote:
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics.
No offense, but that's not a satisfactory definition, it's a tautology. Would you say that having political ability means, as you said after that, being "skilled at manipulating people and opinions?"
quote:
The wizard I'm referencing is the battle mage in Calimport that Entreri faced. The same could apply to the drow wizard that Drizzt faced when he was young.
Alustriel, though, cast plenty of 7th+ level magics in the battle. She cast Chariot of Sustarre and probably Delayed Blast Fireballs. But I quite agree that her memorisation that day was faulty. She should have had Contingencies and Simbul's Spell Sequencers enough to be able to unleash multiple spells per round, not to mention that she should have made it difficult to target her by being invisible and undetectable.
The fireballs might have been 7th level spells, but I don't think there's anyway of knowing that for a fact (that is, I don't recall the text saying Alustriel's fireballs were more a more powerful version of the typical spell). That said, I completely agree that Alustriel didn't exactly come off as the master mage she's supposed to be, especially considering that she's had at least 600 years to hone her skills (in all aspects of life, for that matter). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 21:13:46 |
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The best living military commanders
