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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 04:04:35
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As a devout follower of Velsharoon, my cleric has made an in depth study of the various forms of undead which he can choose to achieve true power. His resulting selection is... Blood Fiend, the undead demon from the Fiend Folio.
To achieve this worthy goal, my cleric must become an evil outsider and then be drained by an existing Blood Fiend. My cleric intends to pursue the Divine Disciple prestige class, at the end of which he will transcend into an evil outsider. Assuming my cleric is able to convince a Blood Fiend to drain him (should be relatively easily with planar ally spells from the god of undead) then two questions arise.
1) When my cleric is drained levels he would in theory lose his prestige class levels and thus no longer be an evil outsider and thus no longer qualify to become a Blood Fiend spawn. However technically he is killed due to negative levels, which have no effect on his evil outsider status, and he only loses the levels if he fails the fortitude save for the negative levels 24 hours later thus he meets the evil outsider slain by a blood fiend's energy drain requirement.
a) Would my cleric automatically become a blood fiend in this scenario?
b) If not would he become a blood fiend if he made his 12 fortitude rolls 24 hours after being dead (thus not losing any levels)?
c) If a restoration spell was cast on my dead cleric's body to remove the negative levels would he then become a blood fiend?
2) Assuming my cleric is successful on becoming a Blood Fiend, whether through this method or another, what do people feel would be the appropriate ECL of such a character?
As a creature capable of teleporting and dominating monsters at will plus all the energy drain and spawn creation capabilities, a Blood Fiend is tougher than a vampire which has a +8 ECL bonus so the resulting character would obviously be a 20+ epic level character.
Regards,
Exploit
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 09:35:31
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Holy moly! ANother one of those questions. I will digg into the field a bit, before answering. Have patience.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 10:45:12
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I don't recall the exact text as I don't have my books, but doesn't the description say something along the lines of 'characters type changes permanently to outsider'?
I'd say that any type change like that would be permanent (as it's not a sub-type or template change), so if he lost a level of divine disciple then he would still be an evil outsider.
Also I'm not too familiar with level drain but don't you only lose an 'actual level' rather than an effective level if you fail your saves?
If the blood fiend requires him to be drained (i.e. not resist it) then there is no need to make saves, since you can willingly fail saves to my knowledge (though how you fail a fortitude save by force of will is beyond me). If I'm wrong about that then I think you can fail saves by being unconscious (again including fortitude  ) so that could work. |
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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 22:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Holy moly! ANother one of those questions. I will digg into the field a bit, before answering. Have patience.
Ergdusch
I do enjoy pushing the envelope with my schemes! I have a backup plan whereby I let a vargouille convert me into a vargouille (evil outsider) and then have a blood fiend drain me thus fulfilling the requirements to become a blood fiend. However that plan is far less elegant and this plan seems perfectly suited to a Velsharoon divine disciple, who by dogma instead of game mechanics should apothesis into an undead outsider anyway.
I'm looking forward to any comments or ideas about potential game mechanics problems that I might have inadvertantly violated as part of this scheme. (There is no problem from the DMing perspective as the campaign is designed to allow these types of monster evolutions, as long as all the game rules are followed). |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 22:19:20
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I dont know whether you know this or not but the Transcedence ability of the DD doesnt allow the character to becomes a Solar/Pitfiend/Balor/Blood Fiend it merely changes creature type ie a character with 5 levels of DD is no longer considered to be humanoid instead their type us outsider (Ie Charm and Hold Person no longer work on them because they arent a valid target)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 23:02:10
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Sorry to nit pick but while you are changed to an Outsider you did not gain the Evil subtype from Divine Disciple. Very few of the Trancendce type classes actually give an alignment subtype when changing to Outsider. Arachne is one of the few that does.
Also I think the Blood Fiend does not keep their previous incarnations classes and hit dice. I will have to check when I get home. So if I am recalling that correctly than if you had the type Outsider (Evil) from a class it would not matter when you switched because the creatures stats are completely replaced. I will check again when I get home. |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 23:28:20
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Actually, he would gain the Evil subtype from Divine Disciple - see page 52 of PGtF. Now, whether this would qualify him as a "demon" for the purpose of becoming a blood fiend is open to debate. From a purely RP perspective, I'd allow it  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 01:35:08
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| I don't know, unless he was a Chaotic evil native of the Abyss, I'd have a hard time seeing him "count" as a demon. In the current cosmology Velsharoon is native to Dweomerheart, and in the old cosmology Velsharoon was native to Gehenna, so I would have a hard time justifying him becoming a de facto "demon." |
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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 21:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
Actually, he would gain the Evil subtype from Divine Disciple - see page 52 of PGtF. Now, whether this would qualify him as a "demon" for the purpose of becoming a blood fiend is open to debate. From a purely RP perspective, I'd allow it
Blood fiends turn any Evil Outsider into Blood fiends not just demons. Here is the entry from the fiend folio:
quote:
Create Spawn (Su): An outsider of the evil subtype slain by a blood fiend’s energy drain attack (negative levels equal to current Hit Dice, or drained below 1st level) rises as a blood fiend 1d4 days after death. The new blood fiend does not have any of the abilities it had in life.
Actually I think this ability has the potential to swing the Blood War back in the favor of the demons since large numbers of devils or other evil outsiders could be converted into agents of the abyss. I have yet to see an infernal creature that can match this ability (although I expect one is being devised in some infernal laboratory somewhere). |
Edited by - Exploit on 18 Jan 2007 21:46:58 |
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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 21:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I dont know whether you know this or not but the Transcedence ability of the DD doesnt allow the character to becomes a Solar/Pitfiend/Balor/Blood Fiend it merely changes creature type ie a character with 5 levels of DD is no longer considered to be humanoid instead their type us outsider (Ie Charm and Hold Person no longer work on them because they arent a valid target)
Yes I am aware of this fact which is why my plan requires that a Blood Fiend actually drain the character to complete the conversion. My comments were just to the fact that Velsharoon dogma states that his followers should seek to become undead as the perfect state of being so it would seem to make more sense if a Divine Disciple of Velsharoon actually became an undead instead of an outsider. This is not the rules but it would fit better. |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 22:43:27
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| I double checked the Transcendence ability (both versions). There is no mention of gaining an alignment subtype. Divine Disciples become Outsider (Native) creatures. |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 23:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
I double checked the Transcendence ability (both versions). There is no mention of gaining an alignment subtype. Divine Disciples become Outsider (Native) creatures.
Ok, I'm going to quote from page 52 of the PGtF, under the Transcendence ability: "She also gains any alignment subtypes that match alignment components she has in common with her deity."
That's what I was referring to. |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 06:51:25
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| My apologies, I completely missed the two lines dealing with that somehow. Guess a case of seeing what you expect. |
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Transcendence of Velsharoon Divine Disciple
