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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 03:36:14
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In the 2nd Edition monster books we were told that minotaurs were creatures that had so offended the gods with some horrible and unnatural act that they were cured to become minotaurs, and that there were no female minotaurs, minotaurs mated with female humanoids of other species and bred minotaur male offspring.
Does anyone know if this is still the official line when it comes to minotaurs? 3rd Edition products in the Realms have included more larger communities of minotaurs, such as the one mentioned in the Ghour entry in Monsters of Faerun, and the minotaur region of the underdark that the Menzoberranyr ran into in the WOTSQ series.
None of these mentioned females or young, so this doesn't support or deny the previous information, but large communities would seem to be difficult to support if you had to keep kidnapping your women, and there also doesn't appear to be any mention of slave pens for keeping them, etc.
Anyone know the current clack on Minotaurs regarding this?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In the 2nd Edition monster books we were told that minotaurs were creatures that had so offended the gods with some horrible and unnatural act that they were cured to become minotaurs, and that there were no female minotaurs, minotaurs mated with female humanoids of other species and bred minotaur male offspring.
Second edition did say that, but on Krynn, there were two nations of minotaurs. I don't recall specific mentions of their reproductive habits, but for there to be enough minotaurs to form a nation, they were obviously a natural occurrence.
I don't know what 3E has to say about it... I'd say that the "cursed" origin is either legend, told by people that don't know any better, or that while it is true for a small number of minotaurs, the rest are a naturally occurring race. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:18:54
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It could be that thay also just began to produce females . . . maybe a gift from Baphomet? I know Krynnish minotaurs have females . . . the earliest reference that I can remember being Leaves from the Inn of Last Home, though Krynnish minotaurs are downright civilized compared to Minotaurs in other settings.
I also remember that that little bit of background, the cursed thing, was reinforced by the Hill Giant Minotaur from the Legend of the Spelljammer boxed set (Breakox?).
Hm . . . things to ponder. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 06:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Second edition did say that, but on Krynn, there were two nations of minotaurs. I don't recall specific mentions of their reproductive habits, but for there to be enough minotaurs to form a nation, they were obviously a natural occurrence.
There have actually been three nations of minotaurs on Krynn -- those of the Blood Sea Isles, Taladas, and the Kazelati.
quote:
I don't recall specific mentions of their reproductive habits, but for there to be enough minotaurs to form a nation, they were obviously a natural occurrence.
Being products of the Graygem (and therefore being "descended" from ogres), Minotaurs reproduce in ways similar to their "progenitors".
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 15:08:39
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| I don't ever recall there ever being a nation of minotaurs in the realms.I may be very wrong,but if there is.It defintiely doesn't get the ink as do Krynn's minotaurs. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:17:17
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There isn't such a nation, so far as I know. I was simply tossing that out to show that even though the 2E Monstrous Compendium said that minotaurs were cursed, this was obviously not universal.
Further argument against the "cursed" theory is Thud. Thud is a N minotaur who owns The Inlet in Thentia (Moonsea is the supplement that mentions him). I can't see a cursed critter being true neutral.
Besides, for minotaurs living in the Underdark, where would they find enough females to breed?
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:31:39
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Oct 25, 2004:
1. Faerunian minotaurs are very rarely seen or mentioned for the same reason psionics was downplayed for so long; they’re considered essential elements of another TSR/now WotC product line (minotaurs meant Dragonlance, psionics meant Dark Sun). So while they’re in the Realms (the ‘home of everything’ for 2nd Edition D&D), we weren’t allowed to feature them in adventures or novels, or make more than passing mention of them.
And Oct 29 of the same year,
Capn Charlie. I like both of your minotaur isle ideas, and yes, I have always included a FEW intelligent, refined minotaurs, though most are brutish, barbarian-level “grunting beasts.” I’ve always treated lizard men the same way; most are tribal warriors with much cunning but not a whole lot of inspirational intellect (i.e. they can learn a new weapon, trap, or battlefield danger in a hurry in a fight with PCs, but don’t lead lives of complex culture), but a few are every bit as intelligent and accomplished as most humans. This usually means that they’re smart enough to keep isolated and largely hidden from humans. :} |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:40:45
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How can we tell a female minotaur from male?
No horns and an Utter? |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 19:39:59
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quote:
How can we tell a female minotaur from male?
No horns and an Utter?
You can't, I would think that female look strikingly like males, sort of like Dwarves. Or like elves even, only in that case, the males look like females. Because you know what they say: the only difference between an elven male, and an elven female, is a grand total of 2 inches...
umm...
^slowly backs off and goes invisible as soon as he has noted just how many UNamused dwarves and elves there are near by^ |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 21:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
quote:
How can we tell a female minotaur from male?
No horns and an Utter?
You can't, I would think that female look strikingly like males, sort of like Dwarves. Or like elves even, only in that case, the males look like females. Because you know what they say: the only difference between an elven male, and an elven female, is a grand total of 2 inches...
umm...
^slowly backs off and goes invisible as soon as he has noted just how many UNamused dwarves and elves there are near by^
  
I nearly sprayed my lunch all over my scrying pool! How many times have I said that about the lesser, and by that I mean non-human, races. They must have serious issues procreating because of their inability to tell the difference betwee...
uh...
umm...
^slowly backs off and follows Luther Cromwel into invisibility as the number of unamused dwarves, elves and other lesser races turn this way^ |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 22:39:18
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quote:
How many times have I said that about the lesser, and by that I mean non-human, races.
^he being a gnome, gives Fletcher an inquisitive look^
By lesser, I take it you mean taller, correct?
hehehehe
Any way, back onto the cow people. Actually, speaking about Minotaur society, I know its a bit uncreative of me, but I've always seen the 'Tauren' of the War Craft series as an interesting spin for Minotaurs. Mind you, I haven't had the chance to apply it. But frankly, however they aren't rocket scientists (let alone gnomes) by any stretch of the imagination, they still might have an indepth society based from many of generations.
Maybe Minotaurs are somewhat of a misunderstood people, always having to resort to violence due to the discimination that other races have blanded them with.
Or maybe they really are big dumb cow people. It's kind of hard to ask one... |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 18 Aug 2005 22:39:48 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
quote:
How can we tell a female minotaur from male?
No horns and an Utter?
You can't, I would think that female look strikingly like males, sort of like Dwarves. Or like elves even, only in that case, the males look like females. Because you know what they say: the only difference between an elven male, and an elven female, is a grand total of 2 inches...
umm...
^slowly backs off and goes invisible as soon as he has noted just how many UNamused dwarves and elves there are near by^
Not our fault you can't tell a male elf from a female one, and kissed him or proposed to him. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:57:21
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As Ed said, the minotaur race doesn't feature prominently in the Realms. There are of course minotaurs in Faerun, but they are not a wholly organised people with a land or nation or their own.
That being said, most of the FR-related references to minotaurs in 1e, 2e, and 3e establish that they seem to fill mostly bodyguard or slavery roles. Fahd yn Ralan el Pesarkhal of Calimport is said to be personally guarded by a contingent of 12 minotaurs. Some Red Wizards utilise minotaurs as personal bodyguards as well. Small numbers of minotaurs are seen regularly in many slave pens of the Drow Houses of Menzoberranzan were they sometimes also double as foot soldiers when the drow go to war.
And then of course there is Taurus, the "famous" Hillsfar arena fighter, who has garnered an impressive measure of fame during his time in the arena.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 03:39:52
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| The minotaur I played in 2E, I decided to bring into the Realms as an NPC. He stepped thru a portal on his world, and found himself in Myth Drannor. He made some new friends, and eventually they all bought a tavern in Waterdeep. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 04:44:35
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A couple of years ago, I had placed a small village of minotaur women in the Silverwood, not far from Olostin's Hold, west of Everlund. It was a small hamlet or fort of around 80 women in log cabins and huts surrounded by a wooden stockade wall. These were the Uluhalar, minotaur slaves that escaped from Shade shortly after it arived in Anauroch. They had been bred for centuries by the shades to be docile and serve as laborers and (to the great and secret shame of the minotaur folk) for food.
A peaceful and demoralized people, the uluhalar women were trying to just survive and make their way in the world free from the yoke of shade oppression. However, they had fallen on hard times, as a drow necromancer had taken up residence deeper in the woods and was sending plagues of zombies through the forest to bring back new corpses for him to experiment on.
The bull chief had taken the few males they had out to fight the undead menace and never returned (themselves fallen victim to the necromancer and made into zombies.)
When my players stumbled onto the village and learned of their plight, they heroically volunteered to eradicate the wizard and went on to kill the necromancer in his tower. It was a very memorable adventure, which spawned their greatest arch-nemesis--the necromancer Severian. He kept popping up when they least expected it over the course of 2 years. After all... death is no barrier to a vengeful necromancer!
Although the triumphant adventurers had bad news to bear back to the uluhalar females about their dead chief and males, the party were still feted as heroes. And in the few days the party stayed with them, the paladin of the party (a paladin of Sune) quietly did the best he could to help the minotaur women with their population problem.  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 05:05:12
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| Grey, now I have to try and sleep with that image in my head . . . although you can say one thing for minotaur women . . . no . . . that jokes too easy . . . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 05:49:29
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| Honestly, that's a topic I've been pondering with my minotaur NPC. When I was playing him, I decided that he wouldn't be interested in non-minotaur women. But then, that was on his homeworld, where minotaur women were plentiful. Now that I've transported him to the Realms, I'm debating whether or not he'd relax this attitude, since he's going to have to look a lot harder to find a minotaur woman. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 13:22:57
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I have always thought that minotaurs were originally human devotees of Baphomet, who changed them "into his likeness" as a reward for their worship. That would explain why they are so rare in the Realms, and also the existence of both sexes.
On the other hand, it may also be that originally some minotaurs entered Faerun through a portal (form Krynn, perhaps?). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 13:36:39
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| I am shying away from connecting Krynn minotaurs with minotaurs in Faerun, since Faerunian minotarus are much more savage, much less "civilized." Minotaurs are also a bit smaller in Krynn, and are a bit less powerful (in 3.5 minotaurs in Krynn are reworked to be LA +0 race). Plus, Krynn minotaurs have feet like humans or ogres, and Faerunian minotaurs have hooves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 17:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I am shying away from connecting Krynn minotaurs with minotaurs in Faerun, since Faerunian minotarus are much more savage, much less "civilized." Minotaurs are also a bit smaller in Krynn, and are a bit less powerful (in 3.5 minotaurs in Krynn are reworked to be LA +0 race). Plus, Krynn minotaurs have feet like humans or ogres, and Faerunian minotaurs have hooves.
Minotaur feet are one of those things no one agrees on. Some sources will say one thing, some will say another.
I favor human-style feet, simply because minotaurs are bipedal. For bipeds, a foot shape like that offers far greater stability and balance. To me, it only makes sense that all minotaur feet would be like that.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 19:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I am shying away from connecting Krynn minotaurs with minotaurs in Faerun, since Faerunian minotarus are much more savage, much less "civilized." Minotaurs are also a bit smaller in Krynn, and are a bit less powerful (in 3.5 minotaurs in Krynn are reworked to be LA +0 race). Plus, Krynn minotaurs have feet like humans or ogres, and Faerunian minotaurs have hooves.
Minotaur feet are one of those things no one agrees on. Some sources will say one thing, some will say another.
I favor human-style feet, simply because minotaurs are bipedal. For bipeds, a foot shape like that offers far greater stability and balance. To me, it only makes sense that all minotaur feet would be like that.
On the other hand, hooved feet are kinda cool, especially for a Minotaur Archvillian. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 22:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
On the other hand, hooved feet are kinda cool, especially for a Minotaur Archvillian.
*blinks* I've never thought of hooved feet as cool... I suppose you could go for a middle ground, and have the minotaur's foot be like an elongated hoof... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 03:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Plus, Krynn minotaurs have feet like humans or ogres, and Faerunian minotaurs have hooves.
Errr... no. The 3e DLCS finally settled the extensive "minotaur feet debate." For quite a long while, the distinction of Krynnish minotaur "feet" was the object of contention among various game designers and authors who were basing works in Ansalon.
With the printing of the DLCS however, minotaurs now have "cleft hooves".
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Edited by - The Sage on 20 Aug 2005 03:13:02 |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 10:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I favor human-style feet, simply because minotaurs are bipedal. For bipeds, a foot shape like that offers far greater stability and balance. To me, it only makes sense that all minotaur feet would be like that.
On the other hand, hooved feet are kinda cool, especially for a Minotaur Archvillian.
I use human-style feet as a basis, and indeed agree with the "coolness" of hooved feet, so in my campaign is a blessing from Baphomet to chiefs and so on. |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 20:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Further argument against the "cursed" theory is Thud. Thud is a N minotaur who owns The Inlet in Thentia (Moonsea is the supplement that mentions him). I can't see a cursed critter being true neutral.
Unless the curse was just to change his form, and not his alignment. Say, BTW, has there ever been any word on magical transforming curses in the Realms? I.e., "You call yourself a wolf, now have the face of one!" and the like. And how should it be handled 'in game'?
quote:
Besides, for minotaurs living in the Underdark, where would they find enough females to breed?
Minotaurs don't have to go looking for the women. The women come looking for them. They are half bull, after all. *evil smile* |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 00:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Further argument against the "cursed" theory is Thud. Thud is a N minotaur who owns The Inlet in Thentia (Moonsea is the supplement that mentions him). I can't see a cursed critter being true neutral.
Unless the curse was just to change his form, and not his alignment.
An intriguing possibility...
Thud is described as being "soft-spoken" and "well-read" despite his "brutish outer appearance." These traits could reflect that the curse merely altered his outer form, while leaving his inner self, largely the same as it was.
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 14:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
On the other hand, hooved feet are kinda cool, especially for a Minotaur Archvillian.
*blinks* I've never thought of hooved feet as cool... I suppose you could go for a middle ground, and have the minotaur's foot be like an elongated hoof...
I put fuzzy pink slippers on my minotaurs |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 03:50:28
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Alright heres the deal on the minotaurs. They have females, but they look like males, are strong as males and fight like males. Kinda like the Tolkien's version of dwarves where females have beards.
About human women having to reproduce with minotaurs: poor women. They would obviously die giving birth to creatures that large. Since minotaurs are fairly prolific underground, a whole LOT of poor sacrificial human women would have to be sent there to continue species.
It just does'nt make sense. Minotaurs must have their own females. |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
Edited by - Ranin on 01 Jan 2007 03:51:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 21:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
About human women having to reproduce with minotaurs: poor women. They would obviously die giving birth to creatures that large.
Though I agree with most of your other points, I disagree with this one. We don't know that minotaur babies are all that big, for one thing. And there have certainly been some rather large humans in the real world; Shaq, for example, is more than 7 feet tall and weighs 300+ pounds, and his mom is still around. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 00:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
About human women having to reproduce with minotaurs: poor women. They would obviously die giving birth to creatures that large.
Though I agree with most of your other points, I disagree with this one. We don't know that minotaur babies are all that big, for one thing. And there have certainly been some rather large humans in the real world; Shaq, for example, is more than 7 feet tall and weighs 300+ pounds, and his mom is still around.
I'm hesitant to quote a purely DL source for potential lore on minotaurs in the Realms... However, Taladas: The Minotaurs suggests that minotaur babies are often born slightly larger than the average human baby.
While I agree that minotaur babies in the Realms likely aren't born "big" as such, I would imagine there would be some size and mass differences between a healthy human baby and a healthy minotaur baby.
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Minotaurs in the Realms: Origins?
