| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 04:45:33
|
Hey all,
My friend is doing the insane and coming up with more "specialized" spellcasting systems inspired by Spycraft to reflect some of the spellcasting traditions in the Realms, and as such, he is trying to come up with the general "themes" of the various spellcasting traditions of the Realms.
I've been giving him the overview of the various cultures and what they were famous for, but a lot of it comes down to epic level spells and the like, which doesn't really cover the "day to day" magic of some of these cultures.
If you were going to narrow down specific "traditions" in the Realms, what would those traditions be? What themes/spells/magic item types should be associated with these traditions? Just curious to see where other people's minds are at on this sort of thing.
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 05:15:30
|
| Im not quite sure what your asking do you mean spellcasting classes? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
 |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 05:33:17
|
Well Ed has discussed many magics, some that appear not to be part of the Weave, so I am not sure how to advise you on the topic.
Day to day magic use would likely include dealing with small problems. An herb to heal a cut, a finding lost item(s), etc. Some could be herbal (nature) magic) some could be soul name magoc and so on.
My best guess is that day to day magic would be on the level of 0 to 1 level spells and psionic abilities (that some do without knowing it) mending finding, cure minor wounds etc.
If you want a spell list do not look to e there are so many spells out there already that I need not add to the list. Oh galmours (illusions) might always be a common pratice (espcially when it comes to money and/or sex) though at low level so not always effective. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 11:39:08
|
I've always said that if the miracle happened and I began to game again after a hiatus of some 18 years, I'd DM a Realms campaign full of gobsmacking detail. That is, for example, I'd sit down and categorise spell lists in terms of regionality and accessibility (i.e. restricting spell choices based on what spells are available for various regions of the Realms as chosen by me). I'd do similar things with choices of classes and PrCs (i.e. warlock being a possible class choice in the lands of the East, but not in the North or the South), favoured magic items, etc. Basically, magic use (and I note as an aside that this would apply to non-spellcasting classes too - things like weapon choice and armor choice would get the same treatment) would be regulated by me as DM and not be a free-for-all. I know that this might sound harsh and controlling, but I like internal consistency in my gaming and my days of being an active gamer were scarred by pushover DMs who rolled over and gave their friends anything they wanted, to the detriment of the game and my gaming experience.
So yes, after my ramblings, I think that the Realms should have spellcasting traditions and themes. As to just what they might be, I really don't have the time right now to give that much thought!
Boy, was that a useless reply. Sorry KEJr.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 12:13:34
|
| I think this is the sort of thing that is largely left up to the individual DM to fill out with his or her own level of detail. That's one of the things I am really beginning to appreciate about this hobby, i.e., that there's endless room to fill in the blanks and expand on the canon framework. Perhaps members here can offer their own individual suggestions about a school of magic practiced somewhere in the Realms. If there's some canon to back it up, that should be used of course. Whatever else may be invented won't be canon, but if it looks like fun who cares, use it. ;) If you're interested, I'll see if I can dream up a suggestion for you in the next couple days. :) |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 12:24:24
|
My gut feeling tells me that the traditions will be more difficult in most regions than the themes.
Themes: the guilds in the various cities probably teach specific spells, e.g. Waterdeep will in all likelyhood deal more with sea-/navy-related and firefighting and utility spells. While Silvermoon's mages might focus more on the frontier life. War Wizards will probably learn more about blowing stuff up than anyone else.
Traditions: Thay has per se no traditions, or all traditions. Halruaa's tradition will prolly be like Thay's regarding that they focus on everything, but I can imagine specific construction mages... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 13:26:55
|
This is a pretty complex question, largely because the Realms has been, ever since the original "Pages from the Mages" articles in DRAGON, a world of extraordinary magical/arcane variety. The Art, by itself is vast. But, the Weave itself, is vaster.
Primarily, I would say that there exists many forms of magic which are almost always considered something significantly different from what D&D wizards cast. For example, traditions (like table magic) or even the various wild talents at play in the Realms (like spellfire, or even what is commonly called sorcery in D&D).
Another point to consider is the range of wizardly magic use, which will usually include regional traditions, and local and individual approaches to accessing the Weave and casting arcane spells, for example. As it is, D&D usually doesn't specifcially represent the variety and subtlety of magic.
I think that, for a DM who wishes to provide for his/her players with an enriching and full experience in what Realms magic should be like, would do well to familiarise him/herself with Ed's "Elminster" novels for the most part, and maybe even Secrets of the Magister. The most important aspect to remember, with all of this is... not to take the rules as ultimately definitive on the issue of what magic and spells can and cannot be accessed, nor where or when they can be accessed. Never assume that just because the rules don't prevent your wizard from gaining access to a particularly powerful or rare spell, the Realms itself... doesn't also.
-- I'm not exactly sure whether I've been any real help here KEJR. I think I'd like to tinker around with this a little more, before commenting further...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Dec 2006 13:33:46 |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 15:08:50
|
KEJr,
I've been considering details like this for a while now (not specifically this one, as I focus on one region and develope that region. . . because I'm lazy :>) but the first thing I would do in order to accomplish such a goal would be to take a map of the realms and start breaking it down in a sort of "what is prevalent in each area"
ie. Is it a magic rich (Thay) or low magic (umm. . . Icewind dale?), is it more divine magic (dwarven strongholds, more theocratic areas) or arcane magic (Luskan).
Then I would look at the "flavor" of the region, like Mace was talking about (though it would easily be argued that ANY city would try and keep firefighting magic around *g*).
As for specifics, since I'm most familiar with the Vilhon Reach right now I'd say (this is just off the top of my head mind you *g*) that for the most part divine casters outnumber arcane (depending on the country it does differ, but given the events of the "rotting wars" I think the Reach in general takes a dim view on arcane casters) and of the divine casters the strongest would be of nature oriented casters (due, in part, to the Emerald Enclave)
So, to wrap this up before I ramble WAY to much, I'd say that the Reach favors divine casters, and of the magic used (both arcane and divine) it mostly would be nature based (ie. arcane casters would much rather be mistaken for druidic casters if they can at all get away with it *g*) and of the arcane spells that can't be "psuedo-disguised" I would say they'd tend to be more subtle than not.
Phew, I hope that helps some ;D |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 23:20:30
|
Wolfgang Baur and Steve Kurtz authored an article in Dragon Magazine #216, called "Paths of Power", which proposed a modification of the way wizards learn spells. Instead of learning individual spells, a wizard learns paths, i.e., a "school" consisting of spells with a common theme, about 4 to 12 spells (for instance, the greater fire path included old favorites like fireball, wall of fire, meteor swarm, etc.). Paths could only be learned from a teacher, and Kurtz & Baur proposed a number of campaign-specific paths (based on the Al-Qadim line).
If such a system is your beef, it could be used to instill local flavor by restricting the teaching of some paths to certain areas or traditions (for an example, the Simbul's path: hypnotize (1), forget
(2), suggestion (3), the Simbul’s synostodweomer (7, FA), steal enchantment* (7)).
P.S. the Paths of Magic system was also included in the 2nd Edition Wizards Spell Compendium. |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 03:39:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Wolfgang Baur and Steve Kurtz authored an article in Dragon Magazine #216, called "Paths of Power", which proposed a modification of the way wizards learn spells. Instead of learning individual spells, a wizard learns paths, i.e., a "school" consisting of spells with a common theme, about 4 to 12 spells (for instance, the greater fire path included old favorites like fireball, wall of fire, meteor swarm, etc.). Paths could only be learned from a teacher, and Kurtz & Baur proposed a number of campaign-specific paths (based on the Al-Qadim line).
If such a system is your beef, it could be used to instill local flavor by restricting the teaching of some paths to certain areas or traditions (for an example, the Simbul's path: hypnotize (1), forget
(2), suggestion (3), the Simbul’s synostodweomer (7, FA), steal enchantment* (7)).
P.S. the Paths of Magic system was also included in the 2nd Edition Wizards Spell Compendium.
I beleive this is the sort of thing that my friend is going for. From what I understand, it wouldn't even be impossible to learn magic outside of the "path," but it would be less than optimal compared with what your "native" traditions are.
So to clarify, I guess I'm just trying to identify "themes" associated with given populations of arcane casters. For example, its an oversimplification, but Thayans do have a thing for fire, for example, and an Raumathari tradition would be heavy on combat spells.
|
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 03:45:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I've always said that if the miracle happened and I began to game again after a hiatus of some 18 years, I'd DM a Realms campaign full of gobsmacking detail. That is, for example, I'd sit down and categorise spell lists in terms of regionality and accessibility (i.e. restricting spell choices based on what spells are available for various regions of the Realms as chosen by me). I'd do similar things with choices of classes and PrCs (i.e. warlock being a possible class choice in the lands of the East, but not in the North or the South), favoured magic items, etc. Basically, magic use (and I note as an aside that this would apply to non-spellcasting classes too - things like weapon choice and armor choice would get the same treatment) would be regulated by me as DM and not be a free-for-all. I know that this might sound harsh and controlling, but I like internal consistency in my gaming and my days of being an active gamer were scarred by pushover DMs who rolled over and gave their friends anything they wanted, to the detriment of the game and my gaming experience.
So yes, after my ramblings, I think that the Realms should have spellcasting traditions and themes. As to just what they might be, I really don't have the time right now to give that much thought!
Boy, was that a useless reply. Sorry KEJr.
-- George Krashos
I know we have touched on this before in a few discussions. I have used a "gut feeling" before when I assign spells to NPCs spellbooks, and certain spells do "feel" like they might be from one nation or race over others. I have never done a formal listing of where these spells should be from, but I have looked at it on a case by case basis.
At one point in time I harbored an insane idea about listing every spell that I could find and trying to assign a race, organization, or national origin for the spell, or at least determine what spells have been in practice so long that they are considered "imminent domain" or what have you. This wouldn't mean that you wouldn't find, say, elven spells in an ancient Netherese spellbook, but it would be a fun way of reinforcing that the Netherese wizard in question had learned from an elf or someone trained by an elf (which has a basis in reinforcing existing Realmslore).
For now, until I manage to head out to some handy demi plane where time moves faster than it does "here," the closest I have come is in declaring the PH spells as "common" spells that are fairly easy to find, but spells in any other source have to be found in spellbooks or learned from various tutors around the Realms. |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 04:53:17
|
Back in 2E the FRA hardcover did this in response to the PH listing spells as Common, Uncommon and Rare. I actually updated this FRA list to add the various spells found in the published Realms that weren't added in FRA. Mind you that was on an old MAC long-since consigned to the scrap heap. The tables in FRA (p.152) could serve as a basis for making up such a thing again for the 3E Realms. That would be quite a lot of hard work though. I have enough FR cataloguing going on as it is.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 04:58:40
|
| I loved those old charts, and that probably influenced my thoughts on this a lot. I do still reference them from time to time to help inform my "gut feelings." |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 10:51:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Wolfgang Baur and Steve Kurtz authored an article in Dragon Magazine #216, called "Paths of Power", which proposed a modification of the way wizards learn spells. Instead of learning individual spells, a wizard learns paths, i.e., a "school" consisting of spells with a common theme, about 4 to 12 spells (for instance, the greater fire path included old favorites like fireball, wall of fire, meteor swarm, etc.). Paths could only be learned from a teacher, and Kurtz & Baur proposed a number of campaign-specific paths (based on the Al-Qadim line).
If such a system is your beef, it could be used to instill local flavor by restricting the teaching of some paths to certain areas or traditions (for an example, the Simbul's path: hypnotize (1), forget (2), suggestion (3), the Simbul’s synostodweomer (7, FA), steal enchantment* (7)).
P.S. the Paths of Magic system was also included in the 2nd Edition Wizards Spell Compendium.
I beleive this is the sort of thing that my friend is going for. From what I understand, it wouldn't even be impossible to learn magic outside of the "path," but it would be less than optimal compared with what your "native" traditions are.
So to clarify, I guess I'm just trying to identify "themes" associated with given populations of arcane casters. For example, its an oversimplification, but Thayans do have a thing for fire, for example, and an Raumathari tradition would be heavy on combat spells.
OK, now I have the reference before me (and it's late in the morning as opposed to late at night, when I sent my previous reply). A mage can learn multiple paths (from 3 at 1st level to 22 at 20th level to all at 25th level). The mage cannot learn spells outside one of the paths that (s)he/it is pursuing, but (on the up side) can automatically roll a check to learn the next spell of the path as soon as the appropriate experience level is reached. A mage cannot learn a higher-level spell in this way unless he has also learned at least one spell of every lower level in the path. In the example of the Simbul's Path above, once the mage who has been taught this path reaches the level where 7th level spells can be learned, he can make a roll to learn the Simbul's Synostodweomer, provided he has already mastered hypnotize, forget, and suggestion. Note that is a path contains two spells of the same level (say, suggestion and dispel magic, only one of these has to be mastered to be able to move on to the next higher level spell.
So, to come back to your original query, certain paths may be limited to certain regions (there might be a Thayvian path, which (still talking in 2nd edition parlance) contains the circle spell, etc.
Now that we're on the subject, it's also possible to provide personal or regional flavor to spells by working on the fluff and other non-crunch aspects of the spell. In my own campaign, the group's main nemesis used to attack them using ghostly diabloic heads that were conjured out if thin air, unerringly reached their targets and inflicted damage by biting. Since the good man also dabbled in lower plane summoning a tiny bit (on the side), everybody assumed that it was some form of undead that attacked them. Their disappointment was tangible when they eventually found out that the "devils" were no more than magic missiles, which the nemesis happened to have shaped in the form of biting demonic heads. |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 10:55:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I loved those old charts, and that probably influenced my thoughts on this a lot. I do still reference them from time to time to help inform my "gut feelings."
So did I - and (again), the Wizards' Spell Compendium applied the whole system of frequency of spells to every spell in 2nd edition (in existence at the time of publication of the WSC, of course). |
|
|
|
boards
Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 08:36:00
|
| You could also use the different heritages of the magical style. There is the generic elven influenced magic (probably most common), genie taught magic of Calimsham, Mulan magic from their gods, Imaskari derived magic (deep Imaskar and possibly the Endless Wastes), Northman Rune magic. My way of looking at it each of these styles should be fairly unique with different verbal, somatic and possibly componenets. |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 13:44:31
|
It's probably not 100% relevant, but here's some old notes that I prepared for a campaign. A couple of caveats: these must have been written around 1995 or so, so they're under second edition. It refers to a Mayfair Games sourcebook of the time, which I liked.
The Uialtari were (and are, I still write about these occasionally) a race which evolved from the mind flayer slaves back when the mind flayers still more or less ruled the prime material plane. They came upon an artifact which went through various names but is currently called the Obsidian Heart, which was the incarnation of an Elder God (we are thinking Cthulhu-like beings here, from the dawn of time), which infused the Uialtari with the raw firepower that allowed the Gith to overthrow the mind flayers. After that (in my campaign), the Uialtari more or less became the ruling power of the Prime Material Plane, using their power to fight off a couple of invasions from the Lower Planes, where the archfiends thought that with the mind flayers gone, it would be a convenient time to overrun the prime. The Uialtari were very much an absentee landlord, which allowed the current batch of races to evolve. An experiment by a Uialtari scientist went horribly wrong and wiped out all but a couple of thousand survivors around 40,000 years ago. One of the major themes of my campaign(s) was the Uialtari's attempts to grab back what they had lost (at present date, they numbered around 50,000 or so).
And then, to tie it in with the Realms, the Uialtari capital was located in what is now the Raurin desert - the Imaskari were originally slave-servants who were freed, and set up their own society (non-canon, of course).
So, here goes:
By now, several magical traditions exist.
1) The Arcane Tradition, practiced by the magic-user classes and bards.
2) The Devotive Tradition, practiced by priests, paladins, and, with slight variations, shamans and seraphists.
3) The Witchcraft traditions, practiced by the various witches from the Mayfair Games supplement.
4) The Sha'Ir traditions, practiced by the Sha'Ir, as well as the Uialtari masters.
5) The Alienist tradition, which is practiced by the cultists of the Elder Gods. This item is inspired by the magic from the Call of Cthulhu game. It is not dependent on experience level, but rather on study of "forbidden works" (the Necronomicon, etc.) or tutelage from the servants of the elder beings. Through such studies, the student acquires "study points", which can be traded in for spells and power points. Spells each cost a certain amount of power, and can be cast as long as there is power left. Fell rituals (sacrifices, mostly) can be used to boost power points, which will allow the student to cast the most powerful spells (those who summon the elder gods back from wherever beyond the Outer Planes they currently are). Study also brings madness, of course. A student does not need to have sufficient power to cast a spell in order to study it (and suffer sanity penalties). Spells seem to focus (judging from Casus Belli scenarios only) on the field of calling and controlling certain types of beings, as well as mental power, such as hypnotism and mental domination and dream powers.
6) The Death Master tradition, which also includes the witches as described in Vol. I.
7) The Thanatamantic tradition, practiced by, among some others, the ghûl lords of Zakhara.
8) The Runic traditions are practiced by runecasters among giants, and in some worlds among followers of the norse pantheons. With some variation, other cultures also practice this tradition.
9) Spellfire, which is a innate ability, rather than a tradition. Psionics is not considered a tradition, since it does not derive from forces outside the wielder's own body and mind. The Uialtari magic tradition is mostly identical, from a technical points of view, to the aforementioned traditions, but whereas all the aforementioned traditions draws, to some extent, to the Weave of Magic, the Uialtari traditions draw upon the Obsidian Heart to fuel their spells and enchantments. Note that some Uialtari masters also practice one or more of the standard traditions (though never the devotive and/or alienist traditions; surrendering oneself to the service of a Power is abhorrent to any Uialtari) [Note 01-01-2007 - I later drew up notes on how Obsidian Heart magic interacted with "regular" magic). |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Spellcasting Traditions and Themes In the Realms
