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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 20:01:32
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I know he is mystras chosen but he is a thousand or something years old and mystra is no where near that old so how was elminster born/created
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 20:05:34
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His story can be found in Elminster:Making of a Mage, Elminster in Myth Drannor, The Temptation of Elminster. All by Ed Greenwood.
BTW, the 1st Mystra was 1,000+ years old. I think you are confused because you are thinking of the second Mystra that was raised up about 20 years ago. There was Mystryl, Mystra, and then Midnight-Mystra. The last is the current deity of magic who was raised up during the Time of Troubles, which was about 20 years ago in game. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 21:08:14
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Kuje nailed it...(Why does he always do that?!) Good ol' El came about 1000-odd years ago...Kicked a lot of tyranical wizard asses...Won the favour of Mystra(not for kicking the wizards in the rear, or anything, but it's a long story...331 pages long, in fact...) Along the way of winning back the kingdom of his birth, he became ELMINSTER MOST MIGHTY! *colorful confetti falls from the sky and trumpets sound* I wish it would stop doing that...Well, anyway, none of this is really helping, but I thought I'd throw in my two coppers.  |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
Edited by - Aglaranna on 26 Dec 2006 21:08:54 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 22:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Aglaranna
Kuje nailed it...(Why does he always do that?!)
I think the words Realms Addict are involved, somewhere. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 23:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight
I know he is mystras chosen but he is a thousand or something years old and mystra is no where near that old so how was elminster born/created
El is 1,162 years old as of 1374 DR.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 23:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
His story can be found in Elminster:Making of a Mage, Elminster in Myth Drannor, The Temptation of Elminster. All by Ed Greenwood.
I'd also throw in Ed's "Athalantar" campaign article from DRAGON #228 for more on El's early years.
quote:
BTW, the 1st Mystra was 1,000+ years old.
Which Ed has mentioned several times in his replies over the years.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 23:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
His story can be found in Elminster:Making of a Mage, Elminster in Myth Drannor, The Temptation of Elminster. All by Ed Greenwood.
I'd also throw in Ed's "Athalantar" campaign article from DRAGON #228 for more on El's early years.
Or Lost Empires for a few bits and pieces from the same article. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 01:46:02
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| He actually originated from Elthryn & Amrythale Aumar. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 03:07:59
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| He first appeared in Tolkien's books under a different name |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 04:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
He first appeared in Tolkien's books under a different name
*sigh* No, he didn't. Just because he bears a resemblance to Gandalf, it does not mean that he is Gandalf. Let's give Ed a little more credit than that, shall we?  |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 04:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
He first appeared in Tolkien's books under a different name
*sigh* No, he didn't. Just because he bears a resemblance to Gandalf, it does not mean that he is Gandalf. Let's give Ed a little more credit than that, shall we?
Indeed. As Ed has told us:-
"He owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on."
and:-
"He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Edited by - The Sage on 27 Dec 2006 04:29:10 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 06:37:40
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| Indeed! Elminster is as original as any other fantasy character out there. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 13:18:56
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This topic suddenly gave me a question to ask.........
How does elminster or any other chosen celebrate their birthday?
The endless possibilities would be fun, imagine......
1) Simbul lighting the candles with a meteor storm after finally getting fed up with lighting 1000+ candles one by one
2) Elminster conjuring a snow storm to extinguish the candles
3) Larloch giving Elminster a birthday gift ( a gift wrap servant lich)
4) Mystra giving Elminster a day off of being a chosen ( he'll probably spend the day on banging the Simbul anyway) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 15:06:02
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And Chataro's Choice Number Four would be right on the money. Or so we Knights discovered, one memorable afternoon. (For variety, two archmages able to shapechange are highly likely to explore lovemaking in other shapes than their own - - and then start cycling through shapes, swiftly, as they cliXXX attain physical rapture.) 
Don't ask me how I know that. 
love to all,
THO |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 20:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And Chataro's Choice Number Four would be right on the money. Or so we Knights discovered, one memorable afternoon. (For variety, two archmages able to shapechange are highly likely to explore lovemaking in other shapes than their own - - and then start cycling through shapes, swiftly, as they cliXXX attain physical rapture.)
Don't ask me how I know that.
love to all,
THO
Shards, thats an image I didn't need in my head |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 21:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Indeed! Elminster is as original as any other fantasy character out there.
Well I might have exaggerated a little, but please, Elminster is far from original. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 21:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Elminster is far from original
I don't want to start an argument here, but neither is Gandalf or most other characters of older fantasy, both archetype theories and mythological characters influence most of the fantasy both before and after Tolkien. Saying that Elminster is Gandalf is like saying Tolkien stole the character from Clark Aston Smith (or Dunsany, Mallory, the bible etc. you get my point) because he is an old magician with a beard. |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 21:48:30
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As scererar was intimating, fantasy makes use of some standard archetypes, as does all literature. Classical fantasy uses both the Soul Guide and the Cantankerous Wizard; they both far predate Tolkien and "modern" fantasy. So in that sense, Elminster IS far from original.
But in that exact same sense, neither is Gandalf. Or Merlin. (Elminster actually predates most of the other "crochety old wizard" and/or agent-of-thegods fantasy characters, such as Belgarath.)
What makes any character original is how vividly they are brought to life, and become distinct. Leaving out cameos of Elminster written by other writers than Ed Greenwood (and some bad translations, too), and considering only Greenwood-penned scenes, we have a character more detailed (if not necessarily more likeable) than most "gruff old wizards" of fantasy. So he is in that sense original, in that he's far more of a realized character than the "stock" archetype. So in that sense, just as scererar said, he's every bit as original as any fantasy archetype can be.
Some readers choose to ignore that, but I'm afraid that tells me more about them than about the character. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 22:11:01
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| Sure Gandalf is an archetype, but sometimes he is really human, esspecially when he got fed up with the fool of a Took :D |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 23:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(For variety, two archmages able to shapechange are highly likely to explore lovemaking in other shapes than their own - - and then start cycling through shapes, swiftly, as they cliXXX attain physical rapture.)
Don't ask me how I know that.
love to all,
THO
Luckily, you posted this AFTER Christmas... Otherwise, my Lady, I would have definitely had an alternate wish occupying the No. 1 spot on my Christmas Wish List.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 02:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Elminster is far from original
I don't want to start an argument here, but neither is Gandalf or most other characters of older fantasy, both archetype theories and mythological characters influence most of the fantasy both before and after Tolkien. Saying that Elminster is Gandalf is like saying Tolkien stole the character from Clark Aston Smith (or Dunsany, Mallory, the bible etc. you get my point) because he is an old magician with a beard.
first of all, why not start an argument. Second of all, your neglecting many other Elimintser qualities that are Gandalf rip offs such as his power and near god-like abilities. But we can start with the look. The old pics of El might as well have been taken from some Hobbit Art Book. You want to say he's not a complete rip off and there are some differences fine. But don't try saying he's original with a straight face. We really like drinking the kool aid huh? |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 02:23:21
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MerrikCale,
It's Elminster, not "Elminister."
And as for your contention that El's power and near god-like abilities being Gandalf ripoffs, I refer you to the post from Sage of Stars.
Or to put it more bluntly, it follows that Gandalf's power and near god-like abilities are plainly Merlin ripoffs.
Just as Merlin's are plainly ripoffs of . . . and so on. That's what archetypes ARE.
For the record, Ed was once asked to sit on a board examining a doctoral thesis dissertation on this very archetype, questioning a candidate on the differences between Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid), Elminster, Belgarath, Merlin, Gandalf, and (if I remember rightly) three wizards from operas. The candidate got his PhD because Ed concluded (and wrote in his judgement) that the candidate clearly understood the differences between all of them as characters - - while still demonstrating how all of them "worked" as versions of the archetype.
As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity.
So I guess you've got your way, and started an argument. I do hope you have something more to offer by way of argument on your side than drinking Kool-Aid. 
love,
THO |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 02:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
...Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid)
No, you've got it right -- Fistandantilus. 
And I'm making a copy of your reply my Lady, to go with the others I posted earlier. They're always useful additions to the Candlekeep FR FAQ...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 Dec 2006 02:46:40 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 03:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
...Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid)
No, you've got it right -- Fistandantilus.
And I'm making a copy of your reply my Lady, to go with the others I posted earlier. They're always useful additions to the Candlekeep FR FAQ...
Heeheh, I, of course, snagged it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 04:11:56
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SLAM! your outstanding THO  |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 14:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
MerrikCale,
It's Elminster, not "Elminister."
And as for your contention that El's power and near god-like abilities being Gandalf ripoffs, I refer you to the post from Sage of Stars.
Or to put it more bluntly, it follows that Gandalf's power and near god-like abilities are plainly Merlin ripoffs.
Just as Merlin's are plainly ripoffs of . . . and so on. That's what archetypes ARE.
For the record, Ed was once asked to sit on a board examining a doctoral thesis dissertation on this very archetype, questioning a candidate on the differences between Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid), Elminster, Belgarath, Merlin, Gandalf, and (if I remember rightly) three wizards from operas. The candidate got his PhD because Ed concluded (and wrote in his judgement) that the candidate clearly understood the differences between all of them as characters - - while still demonstrating how all of them "worked" as versions of the archetype.
As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity.
So I guess you've got your way, and started an argument. I do hope you have something more to offer by way of argument on your side than drinking Kool-Aid.
love,
THO
I completetly agree with you on virtually all of your points, especially all of these old powerful wizards being direct or near direct copies of Merlin. As for TSR determining the look, I can't say because I wasn't at those meetings so be it. I am not sure how popular The Lord of the Rings was at that time, certainly nowhere near as popular as it is now, so I would take a small issue with you on that.
My original post was merely a small joke. Then someone said that El is as original as any fantasy character which I find ludicrous.
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When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 22:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
My original post was merely a small joke. Then someone said that El is as original as any fantasy character which I find ludicrous.
I think El stands pretty well on his own as a distinctive character (and yes, I do mean that). As for the character's look...you know, I actually LIKE the "traditional wizard's garb" he used to wear. It was cute. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 00:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
My original post was merely a small joke. Then someone said that El is as original as any fantasy character which I find ludicrous.
I think El stands pretty well on his own as a distinctive character (and yes, I do mean that). As for the character's look...you know, I actually LIKE the "traditional wizard's garb" he used to wear. It was cute.
I'm sure you do. I'm sure many do. I find him dull, but I know I'm in the minority at least on these boards. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 00:15:40
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
I'm sure you do. I'm sure many do. I find him dull, but I know I'm in the minority at least on these boards.
I disliked the 2e "Shadowdale booklet" look, I much prefer the 3E FRCS one minus that "!/*@! sword. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 15:06:47
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MerrikCale, I quite agree that LOTR (through the superb Peter Jackson movies, and the associated games, figurines, annual calendars, and other still-appearing "gear") is more popular now than it was in the mid-1980s.
However, LOTR's "first flowering" (in the USA in particular) thrust modern fantasy from niche popularity into the mainstream, gave it literary respectability, and its Moria scenes may well have inspired Gary Gygax to create the D&D game in the first place (this point has always been a source of debate, and it's clear that Gygax was a long-time fan of all flavors of classic and modern fantasy, not just Tolkien).
So at the time of the Realms being purchased by TSR, the way to desirably define "wizard" in the public eye (moms and dads buying gifts in stores, NOT just young gamers blowing their spending money on the hobby they loved) was to "go Gandalf." (Rather than "go witch," and therefore risk the ire of the Bible belters, and courting the possiblity that they could convince "middle America" that D&D was indeed "all witchcraft!")
So D&D didn't have the height of popularity it has recently had at that time, but it was still the defining power of the entire genre. I don't know if you've ever had any experience with, say, a Hollywood "pitch" meeting, wherein ideas for possible future movies are being presented to studios (to invest in), but the pitches are ALL rooted in previously-existing movies (mythical example: "We want to do Gone With The Wind, only on a Robin Hood-era fantasy magic-works planet, with Actor A as he was in Movie One as the lead, with Actor B from Movie Two as his love interest, and Actor C as he was in Movie Three but NOT the way he played it in Movie Four, as the villain").
So (particularly the Hildebrant annual calendars) LOTR did indeed "define the look" of all fantasies at the time, because it was this sort of reference point.
love,
THO |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 15:45:18
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| I agree with you Hooded One. I remember the good old days when the Realms first came on the scene, that old Tom Hanks TV movie (the name escapes me), and the corruption of children nonsense. Fizban was around before The realms was a TSR product correct? They look identical. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Elminster's origins
Topic Locked
