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Originally posted by Swordcoast Wanderer

Ive always had some trouble with applying the spell wish to things. As a DM its difficult for me to gauge just how much the players should be able to get away with when using one. I don't want to make the spell utterly useless either by twisting the wording to far. So what are some good parameters for the spell wish?

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Originally posted by lucianb

Wishes outside of combat?

My players know when I throw a Wish at them, they run for the hills, unless there is a new perosn at the table, whom they usually give it to them snickering.

I had a greedy thief at the table who wished for the King of a city's gold at his feet....I teleoprted him into the King's treasure room...as the King and his guard were doing inventory.

I had someone wish that they had the power of a beholder's charm spell from one stalk in one of their eyes... I gave it to him, but he had to wear a patch, because I didn't give him control of it.( it woulda overpowered him, so I threw in the DM monkeywrench)

I had a Mage ask for enough expierence and knowledge to cast spells just outside of his level of power, So I allowed him to pick TWO spells one level higher than he could 1/day ( he said spellS= two spells he wanted all the level, but I knew it would overpower him)

A barbarian asked for a Magical axe +4 from the North, and I teleoprted him and the party into the depths of an Ice cavern, beside a dead party, and the barbarian got his axe, but half the party died as they tried to get out and back to town.

And my favorite, I have a not so knowledgable but good friend of mine who ins't the best speller in my group, he wrote his wish down and told me to go with ONLY what he wrote: " I wish to be the gratis samurai ever." He mean Greatest, but I had to...
So everytime he got paid for an adventure, or found treasure, It would dissapear to an orphanage that was named after him in a far off town. ( He was great or his gifts, but not how he wanted it) Out o pity, I gave him enough expierence for the next level he needed 40,000, I gave him 40,001 ...something like that.

In my opinion, a Wish is time for the Players to see just how Scary messing with powers that affect time, space, reality and Fate can be. Its a time to show the players you don't take no $#iT lightly. Just remember, if you feel like what you give them is too powerful, and you give it to them, you have to learn to work around or through the repercussions.

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Originally posted by WalkerNinja

I used to be reknowned for mangling wishes... then I ran into a player that had legal training. I figured out that

1) Mangling wishes is fun for DM's but not for players. Its just like you finally get a wonderful super-model girlfriend that loves D&D just as much as you do, but she later becomes a man-hating lesbian and starts a blog about the inferior size of your penis complete with illustrations and commentary by your ex-girlfriends. The cosmos laughs, but you do not.

2) If I wanted to be serious about spelling, punctuation, and grammar, I'd better be prepared for my players to be just as serious about it. Players taking 1 hour out of the game to write a "wish contract" is dumb and not fun. What is even less fun is discovering that their "wish contract" is completely air-tight and allows them to become 0 level deities.

So I decided to start granting wishes based upon
1) intent of the wisher (not the wording)
2) the limitations of the spell

A wish can't do anything that any other 9th level spell can't do, but it will do exactly what you want it to, within the inherent limitations of a 9th level spell.

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Originally posted by WalkerNinja
starts a blog about the inferior size of your penis complete with illustrations

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Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Well, we know you don't have to worry about the first one

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Originally posted by WalkerNinja

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Originally posted by WalkerNinja
starts a blog about the inferior size of your penis complete with illustrations

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Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Well, we know you don't have to worry about the first one

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Thanks! Don't know quite how you know that... but thanks!

Yeah... wiping out all of the orcs in that other campaign was a little... overboard?

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Originally posted by Tyr

I'd say the best way might be to try make a simplified version of the old Wild Magic table.

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• A Wish can duplicate the effects of basically any spell up to 9th level Wizard or 7th level Priest (but not higher, if such is possible in the campaign.)
  (Exceptions are made for certain unique/rare magics which have exotic components or impossible restrictions - the Wish just won't do everything for lazy players.)
  I basically tend to select "the path of least resistance" (that is, the lowest level) spell that will accomplish the deed, and simply assume it is cast at least at the Wish-caster's level. I don't mind scaling spells up or down (by eye, lol) so that their power level is somewhat comparable to a 9th level spell, if necessary.
  Note that Permanency is an 8th level spell, something that a Wish can duplicate/emulate, so a Wish can indeed be permanent or make something else permanent.


• I tend to be lenient when players use a Wish to save or defend themselves, escape from danger, or retreat from (or delay) desperate situations.
  (I even allow other party members to choose to be excluded from the effect, if they prefer. Usually they don't mind being saved.)
  I don't have any problem allowing a Wish to do things like Raise or Resurrect a fallen comrade (PC or NPC), Heal or Teleport the party. Or recharge a magical item (at least partially). Or cause some unlikely but fortunate event to occur (like a lucky catapult shot breaching the wall during a seige) which makes things easier on the party. It's a 9th level spell, it's always going to do something.


• I'm also a little lenient about a Wish changing "yesterday".
  The players might Wish that they'd done some minor thing differently, or brought along some item they forgot to pack, or did something differently, or said something else, or picked different spells.
  I don't usually have a problem with allowing a Wish to refresh or change some/all of a spellcaster's memorized spells (within reason).
  I don't mind letting the players get away with changing minor harmless (usually recent) past details that, within reason, they might have actually done the different way the first time around. Used in this manner, a Wish can "lubricate" the story, let the players remember to have sufficient rations or be prepared for desert travel or kept that key they discarded or have actually purchased that map, so the adventure can continue smoothly without extra delays.


• I don't allow unfair or greedy Wishes.
  An unfair Wish would somehow change things such that somebody else is instantly defeated, killed, never existed, etc. My usual rule is this somehow backfires, regardless of how powerful the PC or inconsequential the target might be. I do allow a Wish to duplicate a spell which kills (along with normal range, limitations, and chances to negate/save/resist), which might be just as lethal but at least doesn't violate "normal" rules.
  A greedy Wish usually involves taking something which is normally unobtainable or is someone else's property. I might Teleport the Wish-caster straight to the item (and the item's surprised and suspicious owner, or the owner's guarded lair/castle/vault/etc). Or I might even let the PC have the object he greedily desires, but the previous owner (and whatever agents or authorities he recruits) would know the object was somehow stolen and certainly seek to retrieve it. Remember that all sorts of divinations (even Wishes) can be used to determine who committed a crime of assault, murder, or theft. The PCs cannot possibly hide (themselves or their illicit new toys) from every person they meet in every place they travel, at least not forever.
  Now and then, I might even be feeling particularly magnanimous and reward a well-worded Wish by giving a player his new item (or upgrade to an existing item) without any strings beyond possibly giving the item some kind of identity or history which serves as an adventure hook. (Maybe it just magically appears in his hand or at his feet, maybe it's found some time later, it usually doesn't matter much.)


• I won't allow a Wish to break the world.
  Magic breaks the laws of physics all the time and sometimes there are things which break the laws of magic. But there are certain "rules" beyond the power of a Wish.
  In my game some of those rules are no genocide, no apocalypse, common sense stuff like that. And quite importantly: no time travel. I'll allow PCs to manipulate (or replay) time in small ways by mimicking the variety of existing spells which already do exactly that. But I won't let them or their actions move through time or change significant events in the past or future. (There are true time travel magics in the realms - but they typically involve 10th level wizard spells, divine approval, or special use of unique portals or artifacts - all beyond the magnitude of a Wish.)
  Also remember that a Wish cast by a mere mortal can always be trumped by a divine power; your Wish might attract some attention (or even a visit) but it won't be enough to change the world on a cosmic scale, especially when such changes will be opposed or denied by powerful beings who prefer to maintain the status quo.


• I don't allow players to break the game/adventure with a Wish.
  If they make a Wish that somehow irrevocably circumvents or destroys the entire adventure plot or simply Wish that they were never even involved or something similar ... I consult with the players (open table) and ask if they'd rather just quit this adventure and play another. If that's the case (it's not just one disgruntled player) then I'll choose another adventure to keep my group happy and I'll even let the player keep his Wish. It's supposed to be about having fun, eh?
  A player who insists on breaking the game for everyone else is a problem that won't be solved by granting Wishes.


• I don't allow a Wish to blatantly manipulate the game or bestow munchkin superpowers.
  A Wish must be clear and specific. A Wish which uses vague, ambiguous, generic, cryptic, complex, convoluted, conditional, contractual - that is, "legal" and greedy - wording is almost never granted in a way the player finds favourable. A player cannot basically say, for example, "I wish for everything written on this page to be true" with any success.
  Remember, Wish is partly Invocation magic - that is, the name of some higher power is somehow invoked (and therefore involved) in the spell casting or spell formula. I assume, as DM, that this power has some influence on exactly how the Wish turns out. (If the precious little time of direct attention you get from Contact Other Plane is any indication, then interrupting an entity/power by invoking it's name and demanding it deciphers your meaning from what looks like a badly written wikipedia page of full of byzantine legalese before granting you a Wish is just not going to have pretty results.)
  My players tend to understand that Wishes always get granted and always do something, but the chances of disappointment (or disaster) increase in direct proportion with their greed. When you're greedy and still get exactly what you Wished for then there's usually some kind of price which eventually has to be paid.
  And let's face it - the DM has the final say. If something is not wanted in the world then it will not be found there. The wise DM will also pay some attention when all of his players become outraged/horrified at his decision ...


• I pay attention to the source granting the Wish.
  Typically this is a "neutral" source such as just casting the Wish spell yourself or reading a generic scroll.
  But sometimes a Wish is granted by a creature or artifact which might have any sort of purpose, agenda, or even opinions about the PCs.
  A benevolent gold dragon might choose to optimize the Wish, overlooking errors in wording to help the player get what he really wants instead of what he actually asks for. A lawful genie might uncaringly grant a Wish which exactly follows the literal wording, regardless of what was desired. A pit fiend might twist the wording as far as possible towards hostile or evil purposes, granting a Wish that somehow exacts a terrible price. A god like Talos might grant Wishes which can kill or destroy with impunity, letting the consequences rest squarely on the character.


• There are some "routine" uses of Wishes (in AD&D 1e and 2e at least).
  For example, you need a Wish when creating magical items, or to get the full benefits (as defined in the descriptions) of some spells like Simulacrum.
  I assume that these uses of Wish have been perfected through the ages so now a "proper" ritualistic exact wording exists which always does exactly what it should. I allow PCs to discover these details through the usual avenues of spell research, musty tomes, and sages. In these instances I don't require the Wishes to actually be worded and played out - although the player can certainly try, if (s)he's gutsy.


• I don't allow meta-Wishing.
  By which I mean, you can't make a Wish about Wishes.
  You can't Wish for more Wishes. Likewise, (if you want to be technical) you can't Wish for fewer Wishes or that your Wish won't be granted.
  You can't make a Wish that changes or negates another Wish in the past, present, or future. That means you can't un-Wish or re-Wish, layer or stack Wish powers in any way, make a Wish that affects another (essentially) simultaneous Wish, or Wish that future Wishes will operate in a different manner. (ie: Follow different rules or be interpreted differently by the DM. Only a cowardly DM would ever allow nonsense like "I wish that every wish I make from now on will actually do only what I want it to, even if I somehow say it wrong.")
  A Wish cannot change the parameters of the Wish spell itself.
  Now, having said all that crazy stuff ... you can use a Wish to affect people/things/places/events that have been affected by other Wishes, you just can't change the Wishes themselves.


• I require every Wish is submitted in writing and spoken aloud.
  Thus no time is ever wasted in arguments about what the exact wording was. I encourage the player to let the other players read and discuss the Wish before final submission, I sometimes help noobs by glossing over their amateur errors, and I make it understood that though players can (usually) take their time, once the written Wish is submitted and spoken aloud there's no turning back. When players make a (typically selfish) Wish in secret they obviously do not benefit from the advice of their peers, and I sometimes judge such Wishes a little bit more severely as a result.
  I'm willing to overlook minor errors in spelling and grammar, since I assume people don't "spell words incorrectly" while speaking (assuming the errors do not greatly alter the meaning). Sometimes, to preserve respect and wonder for Wishes (and to maybe keep the players a little jumpy) I might choose to interpret errors more liberally. I'll sometimes allow a player's unintentional Wish to be granted immediately (or even secretly) when, for example, a Ring of Wishes is unknowingly worn. But only sometimes, and only with experienced players. (If you routinely pounce on and exploit every trivial syntax error with glee then your players will see you - quite correctly - as a heavy-handed and sadistic DM. That playstyle is perfectly acceptable for some groups, but not for mine.)
  I also ask the player to state in plain and simple straightforward terms what, in the "perfect world" she actually wants the Wish to do. If that's not a straightforward statement then I'll get it in writing, too. Under no circumstances do I allow a game mechanic like the character's Intelligence or Wisdom scores determine the qualities or success of the Wish - it's strictly up to the player (or players) to offer their best and they won't get any dice rolls or bonuses or penalties from their stats (or Luckstones, or the effects of any spells, including Wishes, lol).
  Obviously a character who cannot speak cannot make a Wish unless perhaps he can communicate telepathically.
  My players understand that Wishes which cause permanent game-mechanic changes to characters are best handled if they submit their Wish in a way that lets me think about it for a few days or perhaps even discuss with the entire group. Distracting the DM by Wishing for your +1 stat increase at a bad time (like in the middle of combat) will typically not turn out very well - in such rare cases I invoke the house rule that if I (the DM) am being forced to make snap judgements then it's not unreasonable to assume that the character is also being forced to do so as well: a timer with the Wish casting/thinking time can be used, and the character may suffer combat penalties while he busily scribbles notes.
  (Some of my clever players always have a few Wishes already planned and written out, just to be prepared, lol.)


• I try to remember that I should always be a fair and consistent DM.
  It's not a competition or a contest or a TPK race. It's natural (and traditional!) for the DM to be a little bit confrontational, but the purpose (in my game sessions at least) is not the extermination of an endless string of PCs. There are some groups or adventures designed around pitting players-vs-DM in a deathmatch struggle, but there's so many other methods to punish and kill characters that there's really no need for crippling negative Wish nukes to be one of them.
  A Wish is supposed to be beneficial when used wisely, not just an automatic deal with the devil. So, keeping that in mind, there is no reason to automatically adopt the attitude that a Wish will "always go wrong" unless the player somehow cleverly outsmarts the DM. Wish is just another spell in the arsenal which packs great power and should be handled with caution and respect.
  It's important to remember that, as usual, the other players might become jealous and bitter when they perceive one player is receiving goodies (from Wishes) while they get nothing.