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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 03:36:16
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Greetings,
I have a few questions regarding paladins which I hope someone on these forums can answer for me.
1 - I know paladins are proficient with all simple weapons - daggers in particular, but what I want to know is, can the type of dagger chosen by a paladin be affected by his Lawful Good alignment?.
What I mean here is, obviously a paladin would not chose a stiletto or main-gauche because stiletto's are normally affliated with assassins, and main-gauche's are primarily used for dueling. But could a dirk or katar be an appropriate choice instead?.
2 - Can paladins rise up and take action against a evil usurper who has killed the rightful ruler and taken his place, or are there alignment or deity restrictions which forbade the use of arms against one's own kingdom?. And also, can paladins fight in civil wars, or wars of independence?.
The reason I am asking this, is because in my latest FR campaign I am intending on making some big changes to the political map of Faerun, and an Order of Knights that I created will soon face a similar situation to the one just described in the question above.
I hope someone can help me with some answers to these questions, or at least direct me to published material that may help.
Thanking you all in advance...Sage of Perth
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Edited by - The Sage on 14 Apr 2003 05:35:01
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 03:56:22
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The D&D Paladin of 3e is not quite like the KNIGHT that was set up in 1st ed, so it seems that they would be able to use a stiletto. But of course, it is the fighting style the stiletto requires that would be abhorent to a paladin. If a paladin could adopt the use of a stilleto in an honourable way (maybe he likes the stiletto for its speed) then I would let him use one.
There are tons of Paladins that want to overthrow the rulers of such places like Mulmaster, Zhentil Keep, and Thay. A paladin is lawful, but they are also just, and if a ruler is evil or unfair to the people, the paladins may try to overthrow the despotic ruler.
A paladin is a Bulwark of Good. Allowing evil governments does not fit in their agenda. One paladin will not try to overthrow a ruler, but if their was a sufficient number of them (like the knightly order you mention) they would do it with no violation to their god or alignment.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 06:04:15
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Greetings,
Thank you mournblade94 for the info.
I have since been reading up on everything I can regarding paladins, even (in my search) the 2e Complete Paladin's Handbook which covered some points regarding the actions taken by paladins in situations similar to what I mentioned.
I do have another problem, but first some information. When the knights in my order reach a high enough rank they are given a ceremonial dagger (dirk) to use in combat. These daggers serve mainly as a symbol of the paladins strong virtuous nature and courage, but they can be used in close quarters combat.
Here's the problem -
I want to make these daggers a step above a standard dagger with a damage of 1d4+1, and +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls (please be aware that these stats are in 2e format), but I am stuck on a decision of whether to enchant these weapons with a spell-like ability to further create a special weapon for these higher order knights.
If you believe a special spell-like ability is appropriate, what spell would you choose for the enchantment of the dagger?
Does anyone have any suggestions???
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 12:34:19
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I found this a while back, at a place called Defrag's Realms:
Faith Items
Description: Faith items are ornate, yet servicable, weapons given to lay followers and adventurers that do a service for a particular church or faith. They are engraved with the holy symbol of the faith that made them. What sets these items apart from normal weapons, however, is the construction of the hilt. The hilt is forged hollow, and then filled with a molten precious metal, usually silver. After the metal cools, a continual light spell is cast on the precious metal (exceptions, see below), so that it forms a cone emanating from the base of the weapon. Then a silhoutte of the faith's holy symbol is fitted over the hilt, followed by a swing-catch cap, that prevents the light from always being seen. This allows the follower to cast the faith's holy symbol on any surface, as well as providing a form of illumantion.
History: Most common among the non-infravision human faiths, the popularity of these items goes in cylces. Orginally made by the church of Tyr (according to "Daggers of Light: A History" by Chuling Seersong 980 DR; now in Candlekeep), as a why to insure the safety of Paladins and Priests in the dangerous Moonsea and North wilds. The Paladins were able to use the item as a way to signal for help during the night, as well as blind attacking humanoids, in the wilds those lands were the first few centuries of Dale Reckoning. These items lost importance, however, as the humanoids learned to use the signals to their advantage, setting ambushes with captured items, or swarming to an area when they saw the light. However, humanoid memory is brief, and every few humanoid generations, these type of items would regain their popularity, as the humanoids would take a few years to discover their old tricks.
Recently, however, these items have become a way for the church to reward rich merchants and nobles who donated to their church. The ownership of these items have become a status symbol, particularly with the churhces of Siamorphe and the restored Waukeen.
Powers: All of the weapons (most often the prefered weapon of the diety), have the ability, with the release of a simple catch, to shed light from the bottom of the hilt of the weapon. This light will form the silhoutte of the faiths holy symbol at the apex of the light (think bat-signal from batman). 70% of these items have no weapon pluses, 29% function as +1 weapons, (as a Dwarven Champion's weapon, CBoD); the other 1% are weapons with unique powers.
Some faiths use something beside C.L. spells:
Shar: Continual darkness
Lathander: Pink light
Mask, Velsharoon: Gloom
(other changes as appropriate to the involved diety)
It's an idea, anyway.
Also, a paladin doesn't usually have a limitation on weapons. Like Mournblade said, a paladin might choose a weapon not normally thought of as paladin material simply because of a good speed factor. Or it might be because it's an heirloom, something his or her parent used in battle. In Finder's Bane, I believe it was, there's a paladin with a cutlass -- something that might usually be thought of as a sailor's weapon. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Edited by - Bookwyrm on 14 Apr 2003 12:38:53 |
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Aust Grimshadow
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 14:01:44
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| I also have a question about paladins. Must they always be Lawful Good? Could there possibly be a dark paladin with a Lawful Evil alignment. I know the rules of the FR setting wont allow this, but for roleplaying purposes. Are paladins purely for justice and goodness or are they more knightlike and serve a leader? |
"Lies engulf the drow in fear and mistrust, refute friendship at the tip of a Lolth blessed sword. The hatred and ambition fostered by these amoral tenets are the doom of my people, a weakness they perceive as strength. The result is a paralyzing existence that the drow call the edge of readiness." -Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 15:20:32
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I was asking similar questions, Aust . . . take a looke here. And pay lots of attention to Mournblades' posts -- this guy knows his history.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 15:21:27
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Hail Aust,
There are Such paladins that thou speak of, they are the complete opposite of Paladins, and are named Anti-Paladins (Its a poorname in my campaign it was changed to black knight) these characters are Chaotic Evil. I did have one set of stats for them, but i mislaided it. I will see if i can find it again. Also there was a second set of stats that was differant from the ones i used, but i saw these after i had included the Anti-Paladin in my Campaign. Ill see if i can dig them out, but i fear that the soonest i can get them will be next Wednesday.
As for roleplaying this character i Told the player that "Just becuase you are evil doesnt mean that you are stupid" by this i meant that he would wish to hide his alignment from the rest of the party and to do this he would have to commit evil actions behind closed doors, as to speak. An evil character doesnt have to kill everypne he meets, nor does he have to steal everything. An evil character can think of whats best for their future in both the Short term and also the long term. Perhaps the ones who look out for their own good in the long term are much more evil .
As for including an 'AntiPaladin' in a Realms Campaign, well i done it. His name was Morgan Darkblade, he had once been a Paladin of the Order of the Most Radient Heart, until he got expelled from the Order and recieved an nice 5000gp bounty on his head. During this time he was building up his skill as an Anti-Paladin. Its such a pity that he left the party so early on (the rest of the players foud out that he was evil) Because he was one of Bhaals Mortal Progeny- i would have loved to see the surprise on there faces when they realised this. Ahh well perhaps Morgan will be looking for revenge- the party did uncover his secret right enought .
Hanx
Elrond. |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 22:31:02
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I have an Anti-paladin (that I since converted into a Black Guard) in my campaign. THis Anti-paladin is a PC. Why? Well he started out as a paladin. It was a VERY interesting how he lost his Paladinhood. This Paladin at the time was named Count Zaylor. I was running the adventure in Damara at the time.
Well the party (good and neutral members) met a Copper Dragon. The copper dragon is of course a bit of a practical joker, and he pestered the party for some time. Well Dragons, even if good are arrogant and greedy. This dragon was somewhat younger so there was not much of a wise factor there to balance it out.
Well the dragon was involved in a discussion with how MIGHTY he was. He was a braggart. Remember Coppers are Chaotic Good. Well he is bragging and bragging, and suddenly Count Zaylor says, "Dragon I am thouroughly UNIMPRESSED!!!" This does not sit well with the arrogance of a dragon. The dragon to prove his might was readying his breath weapon of SLOW gas (he had no intention of hurting the party). Well Zaylor (and the player indicated to me he was going to look for any sign of aggression) Spots this preparation, assumes the dragon is breathing harmful acid or fire and immediately attacks the DRAGON! Well the two members of the Party follow his lead (the Dark Elf thief, and Wemic Barbarian, becasue a dragon hoard is a dragon hoard) thinking this is the perfect oppurtunity to snag the dragon's hoard even WITH the paladin knowing it. The rest of the party (LG priest of Ilmater, CG wood elf, and NG wizard) stand back in horror as the three fighters slay the dragon.
Needless to say the paladin was no longer a paladin. But my player was wondering why. Answer: Knowing the arrogance of Dragons, for a PALADIN to tell it he is unimpressed is a CHAOTIC act. This puts the paladin demeanor in question. But then hacking it too bits is an EVIL act. Tyr stripped him of his power then and there. I offered him a chance to Atone, (the player was AWESOME by the way) but when he went to atone he told TYR to shove it because he was convinced that now JUSTICE is a farce, and Tyr would not understand the true GOOD of his follower. So he went to his old keep and slaughtered his entire staff of Tyr loyalists and servants. He became Duke Zaylor the Enforcer after this, thouroughly and utterly evil. I used him as a villain for sometime, and when ever he made an appearance I handed the character over to the original player, and refereed the encounter between PC's and player ran NPC.
Having great players is such a treat!
Players in my game know that I am NOTORIOUSLY harsh with paladins in my game. I truly hold them to the tenets of LAW and GOOD. So when players in my game play a Paladin, they know to keep them true.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 14 Apr 2003 22:35:31 |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 23:54:54
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mournblade94:
quote:
I have an Anti-paladin (that I since converted into a Black Guard) in my campaign. THis Anti-paladin is a PC. Why? Well he started out as a paladin. It was a VERY interesting how he lost his Paladinhood. This Paladin at the time was named Count Zaylor. I was running the adventure in Damara at the time.
Well the party (good and neutral members) met a Copper Dragon. The copper dragon is of course a bit of a practical joker, and he pestered the party for some time. Well Dragons, even if good are arrogant and greedy. This dragon was somewhat younger so there was not much of a wise factor there to balance it out.
Well the dragon was involved in a discussion with how MIGHTY he was. He was a braggart. Remember Coppers are Chaotic Good. Well he is bragging and bragging, and suddenly Count Zaylor says, "Dragon I am thouroughly UNIMPRESSED!!!" This does not sit well with the arrogance of a dragon. The dragon to prove his might was readying his breath weapon of SLOW gas (he had no intention of hurting the party). Well Zaylor (and the player indicated to me he was going to look for any sign of aggression) Spots this preparation, assumes the dragon is breathing harmful acid or fire and immediately attacks the DRAGON! Well the two members of the Party follow his lead (the Dark Elf thief, and Wemic Barbarian, becasue a dragon hoard is a dragon hoard) thinking this is the perfect oppurtunity to snag the dragon's hoard even WITH the paladin knowing it. The rest of the party (LG priest of Ilmater, CG wood elf, and NG wizard) stand back in horror as the three fighters slay the dragon.
Needless to say the paladin was no longer a paladin. But my player was wondering why. Answer: Knowing the arrogance of Dragons, for a PALADIN to tell it he is unimpressed is a CHAOTIC act. This puts the paladin demeanor in question. But then hacking it too bits is an EVIL act. Tyr stripped him of his power then and there. I offered him a chance to Atone, (the player was AWESOME by the way) but when he went to atone he told TYR to shove it because he was convinced that now JUSTICE is a farce, and Tyr would not understand the true GOOD of his follower. So he went to his old keep and slaughtered his entire staff of Tyr loyalists and servants. He became Duke Zaylor the Enforcer after this, thouroughly and utterly evil. I used him as a villain for sometime, and when ever he made an appearance I handed the character over to the original player, and refereed the encounter between PC's and player ran NPC.
Having great players is such a treat!
Players in my game know that I am NOTORIOUSLY harsh with paladins in my game. I truly hold them to the tenets of LAW and GOOD. So when players in my game play a Paladin, they know to keep them true.
At first read, I didn't agree with your interpretation that taunting the dragon was a chaotic act. Then I thought about it. And I thought maybe it wouldn't have been chaotic if the paladin didn't know about copper dragons. Then I thought some more, and I realized that taunting something is liable to make it attack you. It's evident the paladin knew the dragon wasn't harmful, so he had no justifiable motivation to taunt it.
So, after some cogitation, I think your reasoning about the taunting being chaotic was very sound, and obviously no question killing it was evil. That's one of the better examples of DMing a paladin I've encountered. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 01:27:26
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Thanks for all the information people.
But I still need some suggestions on spell enchantments for this ceremonial dagger. I am hoping someone has something they might be able to add to this discussion about enchanting a combat dagger.
The stats for the dagger are -
damage: 1d4+1 (adamantite)
special: +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls
For enchantments I had thought about Detect Magic(as per the priest spell), but it does not seem to fit in well with the overall design now, so I need help.
Thanking you all in advance...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 01:36:55
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I originally had the same reaction as Branmakmuffin did. It seemed overly strict to say that a simple taunt could loose him his Lawful status. So I thought about it, and realized that there were two ways of looking at it (that occured to me, anyway) that would support this action.
First, one has to keep in mind that the paladin isn't just a really strong warrior, he's actually a holy warrior. So I considered it from the point of view of a Catholic priest. No priest I know of (and I've known some very loose priests, even one who had no problem with getting sweaty or dirty playing basket ball or such) would ever put someone down like that. Even if he was really annoying.
Second, there's the nature of the Chaotic attribute itself. Chaos, by its nature, means something that doesn't follow. It's something unpredictable. With a Lawful character (good, neutral, or evil, it doesn't matter) you always know how (s)he is going to react. A Lawful character isn't prone to "snapping" at someone, since it requires not thinking about it first.
Now, the Evil bit, just for attacking . . . I think that's excessive. But not for the killing. For a true paladin, he wouldn't so angry that he wouldn't realize what he was doing before he actually killed something as tough as a copper dragon.
So, after a moment's thought, I don't find anything wrong with what you did. I think that if I were playing that character, I'd have picked the atonement oportunity; it would have led, at the very least, a character who was more careful in his actions, far more cautious.
Had I been that character, I don't think I'd have done that, though . . . I'd probably just have transfered to a warrior. I'd have come to the conclusion that the justice of that encounter was too harsh, and that Tyr had dropped me too quickly. I'd feel no special attachment to a god that would wash his hands of me so quickly.
I wouldn't have transfered to Evil, but I'd be more in the nature of "What's it really worth in the end?" Chaotic Neutral, probably, with a leaning towards Good. I'd likely not choose a new god to follow for some time, if ever. My trust in that respect would be hard to regain for anyone. For Tyr, he'd actually have to ask me to come back. Not because I'd want a god to come to me on his knees, but because there'd be no other way I'd know he'd accept me for me, rather than just another tool.
Well, that was an interesting trip down fantasy lane. That has the makings of a good character, actually . . . I'd have to look into that.
Now, Mournblade, what happened with that blackguard? Who'd he pick to serve? What level was he when he fell? (I'm wondering if his level transfered over, as well as if he had a mount and if so what happened to it.) And what did the player do? Did he pick a new paladin or did he try something else? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 01:41:07
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Sage of Perth:
quote:
Thanks for all the information people.
But I still need some suggestions on spell enchantments for this ceremonial dagger. I am hoping someone has something they might be able to add to this discussion about enchanting a combat dagger.
The stats for the dagger are -
damage: 1d4+1 (adamantite)
special: +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls
For enchantments I had thought about Detect Magic(as per the priest spell), but it does not seem to fit in well with the overall design now, so I need help.
Thanking you all in advance...
What do you want it to do? If it's for paladins, maybe it could allow casting Protection from Chaos and/or Evil once a day (or whatever). If it's a reward for stellar service by high-level paladins, maybe the weilder is always under the influence of Prot. from Chaos/Evil.
Or "Does double damage vs. CE opponents" or "Keen vs. CE opponents" or "Requires CE opponents to make a Will save (DC wielder's level + CHA mod) or be Slowed for (1d4+wielder's CHA mod) rounds".
The higer the level of the intended recipients, the more powerful it should be. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 01:51:18
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Well, Sage, it depends on how powerful you want the dagger to be. There are lots of other things it can be that would aid a paladin:
Blessed
Harm Evil (as holy water or similar)
Light (either just a glowing blade or like the post I made above)
Truth (no one can lie while being touched by the blade)
Find North (like a compass)
Firetouch (think Zippo -- useful for lighting a fire or fighting a troll)
Dagger of Throwing (returns to the bearer after being thrown)
I could probably think of several more if I spent more time on it. I think you could probably just look at the Catrip or Orison lists and pick some stuff. Most things could aid a paladin or even just an adventurer in some way or another. Like I said, it depends on the sort of thing you want. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 04:32:15
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Thanks for the help branmakmuffin and Bookwyrm.
In answer to your questions, the dagger is awarded to paladins of loyal service and elite status, paladins that have performed duties or feats above the norm of regular paladin duties, such as single-handedly slaying the dragon threatening a village community or the like.
The dagger would only normally be used for close quarters combat, but it's main function is to serve as a symbol of the paladins great courage. However I wanted to give it certain abilities as well. The suggestions you have made will help me greatly.
Again thanks for the help, and I would greatly appreciate any more suggestions if you can think of them.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Shades
Acolyte
Georgia
39 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 04:52:59
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I have a dragon magazine with rules for non LG paladins. Each alignment sacrifices some of the LG paladin skills and gains new abilities. What I do remember is CE paladins get the opposite of laying on hands, and instead of detecting an alignment they can hide theirs. That's all I remember right now, I'd have to go find the magazine with the article.
Now for the dagger question do this. Look up some low level spell's that a paladin could find useful. Put these on a chart, and at the ceremony there dagger should be blessed by there god. As the dagger is handed to them it get's a special ability. The ability should only work in this paladin's hands though. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 08:17:38
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| ye, but i shoudnt call a knight with non loyal-good a paladin even if one day the rules accept an other alignment, anyway. Then u can call it whatever u want but not paladin which has a specific signification. but why not knights of good with mounts and everything... or knights of law... |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 10:12:14
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| For me paladins will remain the proud knight in his shiny armor protecting the innocents. And a CE knight is to far from the paladin, they are not even closely relative. IMO a LE knight is more appropriate to make an other type of "paladin" |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 23:41:40
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not sure how well these would work for a weapon enchantment... but they're spells listed in the 3rd Ed player's handbook for Paladin spells... so...
Detect Undead - reveal undead within 60 ft
Divine Favor - gain attack, damage bonus +1/three levels
Endure Elements - Ignores 5 damage/round from one energy type
Resistance - gains +1 on saving throws
Resist Elements - same as Endure, but ignores 12 damage/round
Discern lies - reveals deliberate falsehoods
magic circle against evil - as protection spells, but 10-ft radius and 10/min a level
Death Ward - grants immunity to death spells and effects
Freedom of Movement - Subject moves normally despite impediments
Holy Sword - Weapon becomes +5, does double damage against evil
Those were about the main spell... or effects i could see having on the weapons... that haven't already been listed above... tho of course... for any to be in effect... the paladin must be holding the weapon for the spelleffects :P |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 02:23:06
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For those interested in the development of the dagger, here's what I've got so far -
damage: 1d4+1 (adamantite) +1 enchanted
special: magical ability to be quickdrawn and grants an extra attack of opportunity against evil opponents
price: 4,500 gp
This may all change however, as I think I my still go with a spell enchantment such as Detect Undead or Divine Favor much as Zacas suggested.
I have just one last question. I can't find the weight for adamantite, does anyone know whether any book cover these details for the weight of an adamantite dagger?.
Thanks all...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 03:02:50
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Well Bookwyrm, the paladin at the Time was 13th level. He had a Holy avenger as well which is now in the hands of the priest character for safe keeping for someone worthy.
He served two gods over his career as an anti-paladin/blackguard. The first god was A 'cult' god I was making trying to Usurp Talos power. The gods name was ARIOCH (Yep the same one as Elric), and he was attempting to get a foothold in the realms cosmology. Arioch changed him over to an antipaladin. Since there were no rules for Plaadin/antipaladin conversion, I just made the character a 13th level antipaladin. When Bane came back into the realms, I fixed the cosmology by saying he kicked Arioch out of the cosmology (only god that was strong enough to do this, Cyric was no match for the Chaos of Arioch (Read the Elric Saga)). Now that Arioch is gone, I have this Zaylor the Enforcer being an anti paladin/blackguard for Bane. He is a 10th level fallen paladin black guard and 6th level fighter.
He also has an UNHOLY REAVER (EXACT opposite of Holy Avenger).
And thank you for your approval. Like I said I am NOTORIOUSLY harsh on Paladins. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 06:02:45
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As you should be. A paladin is potentially a very powerful class, too powerful to be without the restrictions of morality and virtue. I hadn't really given it much thought before, but it's pretty obvious now that you're sticking it in our faces. 
But you didn't mention that paladin's mount -- or did he not have one? I just don't know if the mount is considered part of a paladin's divinely-granted powers that (s)he forfits in cases like this.
And who in ten shades of monkey dung is Elric?
EDIT:
Forgot to say this. Sage, it not only depends on how powerful the paladin getting this knife is, it also matters who the deity is. For instance, if it's Kelemvor, then you want lots of anti-undead stuff. If it's (shudder) Sune, then . . . um, not sure about that one, but probably pink and floaty . . . .
(No, that isn't an anti-female thing, it's anti-Sune. I don't like her, and I'm a bit predjudiced against Sunian paladins.  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Edited by - Bookwyrm on 16 Apr 2003 06:07:29 |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:23:43
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Mmm...
I don't think in the 3rd edition a paladin is more powerful than a good warrior after all. It doesn't have as much feats as the warrior has, anyway and i learnt how much effecient these warrior feats are.
[i saw a dwarf warrior level 13 killing a monk level 20... gasp]
I still think that in combat, the fighter/mage or sorcerer is the best.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
[i saw a dwarf warrior level 13 killing a monk level 20... gasp]
There's an other explanation... So, Eilinel don't read what follow
This monk wasn't a regular one, she was a magical creature. When she fight, she triggers a magical transformation. But it's ToT, so it failed and she didn't have chance in front of the charging Dwarf.
I don't want Eilinel to know this because she'll meet other creatures like this one... Next time i hope it'll work, what a surprise |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 12:55:01
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Sage of Perth posted -
quote:
For those interested in the development of the dagger, here's what I've got so far -
damage: 1d4+1 (adamantite) +1 enchanted
special: magical ability to be quickdrawn and grants an extra attack of opportunity against evil opponents
price: 4,500 gp
This may all change however, as I think I my still go with a spell enchantment such as Detect Undead or Divine Favor much as Zacas suggested.
I have just one last question. I can't find the weight for adamantite, does anyone know whether any book cover these details for the weight of an adamantite dagger?.
Thanks all...
Doesn't anyone have anything to say about my dagger stats that I previously just presented. I would like some criticism even if it is negative, it all helps in the end.
Thanks all...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 16:25:51
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Sage, read the edit to my last post.
As for your stats, I don't have a problem with the numbers, but I do with the enchantments. It seems too weak for a reward to a high-level paladin. But you'll have to tell me what order this one's from (meaning which god (s)he serves). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 18:15:48
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| I don't like much the idea of a dagger for a paladin. Adamantine dagger has the same weight as a standard one. It's mithril which is lighter |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 18:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
I don't like much the idea of a dagger for a paladin.
Why not? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 19:15:54
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| IMO, a dagger is more a weapon that you hide or that you throw. He just doesn't fit with my idea of a paladin who must shw to his opponent all his weapons. And a dagger lacks of ... nobility (IMHO) |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 22:50:12
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Hardly. Before the use of the rapier and the fencing-duels, and after armored knights and therefore the jousting went out of style, dagger-fighting was the perferred way of "honor duels." (Yes, Mournblade, I know that's a gross oversimplification, but I'm just making a point.)
As I understand it, this dagger wouldn't be considered something to be thrown as it would be for most of its type. I was considering it to be larger, more ceremonial but deadly in its function. It would be used as an off-hand weapon, not as a separate weapon. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 01:53:03
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Just a couple of things to discuss.
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
It seems too weak for a reward to a high-level paladin. But you'll have to tell me what order this one's from (meaning which god (s)he serves).
The answer to that question is Torm. At first I decided Tempus was appropriate but in the campaign, Torm's avatar will soon be making an appearance, and this just made it a better idea to change gods, at the start of the campaign. Bookwyrm, do you think it is a good idea for the avatar to present the weapon to my paladin (it's just a quick flash of an idea I had), as a reward for a great deed he will soon perform (it's coming up in the campaign).
I am also refining the abilities of the dagger. I will present a (hopefully) finished form soon.
And also zemd said -
quote:
I don't like much the idea of a dagger for a paladin.
zemd, if you re-read the beginning of the thread you will see I had similar doubts about some daggers and paladins.
Thanks all...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 01:53:27
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ACK!!! Bookwyrm you MUST read the Elric Books!!!! Michael Moorcock wrote them in the 60's. It is a character essentially based on THE OPPOSITE OF R.E. Howards Conan. Elric is SICKLY, and an albino. He is a prince, but he needs to constantly drink potions to keep his vigour. To oversimplify the story, he is a sickly prince that finds this sword Stormbringer. The sister sword to Mournblade (which Elric's enemy Yyrkoon uses). Well this sword sucks the souls of those it kills and transfers the strenght to the wielder. The sword is PURE chaos. ANd it has a hunger. If you do not feed the sword, it will animate and kill your friends. But this is an amazing plot device for the VERY tragic hero of Elric. Elric becomes immensely powerful (rather than sick) from this sword, and it is basically a struggle of how Elric tries and tries to be rid of the sword. But as the sword thinks "My master... is my slave". These stories are EXCELLENT. They were written in the 60's and next to J.R.R. Tolkein, it is my favourite fantasy series, though Darker than most. Elric's world is not so much a struggle between good and evil, as much as it is a struggle between LAW and CHAOS. Moorcock set the stage for the entire concept (IN FANTASY, NOT THE FIELD OF SCIENCE) of Chaos. Bookwyrm I thgink knowing your standards of writing, that you will REALLY like Michael Moorcock's stuff.
Try Elric OF Melnibone, then Sailors on the Seas of Fate, Weird of the White Wolf, The Vanishing Tower, the Bane of the Black Sword, and STORMBRINGER. The concept of Moorcock's work is a being called the eternal champion which takes on a different form in different worlds.
You will love it I am sure.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Paladin Questions
