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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 17:01:18
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I was thinking of the idea of making a character that worships two dieties. There are a few examples in realms history (The Half-elf cleric of Hanali and Sune in Sembia novels, and the Traitor priestesses of Vhaeraun). But I was wondering if there could be developed a mechanic that might make a duo diety character work.
The ideas that I came up with are either a weak heresy that links the two gods together like in Powers of Faerun and the Dark Moon heresy. But that would not work with the Traitor Priests of Vhaerun well.
My other idea was a feat or prestage class that would allow duo diety worship. Or a possible combination of the two. (The main reason is there is likely bonuses for two gods being your patron, like two different Domain lists, so there must be an equal price). I was wondering if it should be something like generic Prcl like the Mystic Theurge is for Cleric/Wizards or specific ones like the Specialty Priests of F&P. Should the character gain more bonus from one god over another or should it be equal bonus.
Also with the feat, I can see you gain access to more domains but with the cost of a Leadership and Charisma penalty to worshippers of the two gods to symbolize mistrust of the faith (until they know you after making a diffcult Charisma DC roll). Perhaps something like a -4 penalty.
Just some thoughts of trying to make it work maechanically for those who want to use it. I hope this is of interest.
Thanks.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 17:33:08
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Clerics have a very limited number of feats they can take that I would ask you to consider a house rule instead.
House rule: A cleric can worship and honor two deities as long as the Cleric alignment allows the selection of the two deities, further the two deities must not be foes. The Cleric will advance as a single deity follower as to spell slots, turn and other normal advance. The cleric must select one domain from one deity and the second domain from the other deity.
/House rule
This might need some expansion, but the general frame work pretty much offers a Cleric with about the same power levels of a single deity Cleric. There might be combinations that could result in odd abilities and of course clearly will not cover a three deity posibility. I do not believe the Cleric should be handicapped by burning a feat slot. As it is the Cleric might end up with less flexability as to selection of Domain spell. Closely aligned Deities often have the same Domain as one of them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 19:18:32
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| I think it would be easier for someone to follow two deities if the deities in question were closely aligned. Sune and Hanali Celanil are an obvious case, Mielikki and Lurue would be another one, etc. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 19:31:48
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I agree with Wooly. Only allowing such (IMO very strange) option in such instances were the deities are not only no foes but closly aligned as well.
Waukeen and Lliira would be another such example..... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11709 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 20:02:14
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| There is established realmslore for a person worshipping opposing deities (Vhaeraun and Lolth). I would stress the alignment strictures though (i.e. no Talos / Tyrrans). I agree that feat requirement is hefty, but then again, feat requirement is hefty to be able to worship a dead deity as well. However, with penalty (feat cost) should come benefit (an additional domain makes sense from the "newly added" deity, allowing for new spell choices, plus the domain ability). Thus, that person who wants to worship both the red knight and Azuth as a "mage-priest of war" would make sense, especially if they traversed the line of the mystic theurge. You could even make an allowance for a priest who takes this feat at 1st lvl and worships 3 separate deities (so long as he takes a domain from each)... such as a priest of the triad? Or maybe a LE mage-priest who worships Azuth, Mystra, and Velsharoon (don't know if this'd be worth it, but it might) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 22:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There might be combinations that could result in odd abilities and of course clearly will not cover a three deity posibility.
Excluding possibly one of those ablities in CoV where the character is blessed by all three of the triad (torm, tyr and ilmater) |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 22:14:27
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| has any designer eevr explained why panthenonism is not more prevalent in the Realms? Zakhara and Kara-tur have evolved to that level in society |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 22:24:14
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I have never had a problem with characters that venerate allied gods, and in context of the 3.5 cosmology of the Realms, if the gods reside in the same deific plane, I don't think it would be TOO much of a streach for them to revere multiple deities (For example, not only the Triad, but Helm would work in this case as well, since they all reside in the House of the Triad, obviously allied).
I can see elves that revere various allied members of the Seldarine as well. Actually, to a greater or lesser extent this could apply to all of of the racial pantheons.
Now, as to why could do this but might not, having a more narrow focus does allow for a more effective structure. I don't picture large temples to multiple deities, because somewhere in the hiearchy someone is going to favor part of one deities portfolio over another and it will likely cause issues with other worshipers that don't favor that particular aspect of the gods they follow.
So I picture clerics, druids, rangers, or paladins that follow this path as being outside of a heirarchy, perhaps a bit of an outcast, since their views are more likely more individualistic than any given temple might be able to support (and it might be especially hard for a paladin to remain as lawful as they need to under this concept).
I can picture some of the new classes falling under this kind of idea. I can see a Favored Soul of the Seldarine or of the Morndinsamman, or perhaps a Spirit Shaman that follows Meilikki, Lurue, and Eldath.
As far as the drow traitor priests go, that really seems to be a special case, because the traitor priest is less about gaining a loyal servant that will promote your worship, and more about gaining a pawn to sabotage your enemy's faith. It seems they sometimes forget WHO they worship, and begin to veiw themselves as playing their own gods against one another. In the end, I doubt Lolth or Vhearaun are particularly concerned if they end up in one spiritual realm or another, only that they be used as a weapon, and in this case, its like a spiritual Sava game for them to see who grants what spells and when, and who it benefits.
Shakti was a great character to read about to kind of get a perspective on this idea (Elaine, as always, was brilliant). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 00:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I was thinking of the idea of making a character that worships two dieties. There are a few examples in realms history (The Half-elf cleric of Hanali and Sune in Sembia novels, and the Traitor priestesses of Vhaeraun). But I was wondering if there could be developed a mechanic that might make a duo diety character work.
For the rules issue... well, I would think the deities involved would allow their divine casters to select deities outside of their own pantheons and thus be able to have more then one deity. As well, some of those deities would even collectively grant spells to their divine casters.
The important thing to remember here is... FR isn't monotheistic, it's polytheistic. And, as Ed has said, on any given day a divine caster has the option of being able to send prayers to up to varied number of deities, entirely dependent upon the situation.
I'm not sure how I'd do it myself, but I've always tended toward the "rules as guidelines" approach for my campaigns. So, I guess I'd take it from there and go with what works for *my* FR.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 00:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it would be easier for someone to follow two deities if the deities in question were closely aligned. Sune and Hanali Celanil are an obvious case, Mielikki and Lurue would be another one, etc.
While I do agree, I don't think it's entirely necessary. Or, at least, some variation in the alignments of the deities would be allowed.
We have lore examples that demonstrate this:-
Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.
Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 00:49:21
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Theres a PrC in Faiths of Eberron (Something of the Soverign host)that allows a Cleric to worship more than one god basicly the Prc allows the cleric to take a extra Domain each level of he Prc from the other gods of the Soverign host.
Id consider allowing the PrC in the realms for clerics of the Elven Pantheon |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 09:04:30
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Another option, and I just thought of it, is this:
a cleric is usually single-classed, when you change deities you basically just change your domains...but if you decide to worship two gods you basically start training in the other faith. There would be rites and prayers you'd have to learn etc. As strange as it may sound, you could also multiclass into a second cleric class... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 09:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Another option, and I just thought of it, is this:
a cleric is usually single-classed, when you change deities you basically just change your domains...but if you decide to worship two gods you basically start training in the other faith. There would be rites and prayers you'd have to learn etc. As strange as it may sound, you could also multiclass into a second cleric class...
This would actually make sense as it compensates for the feats mentioned earlier. Furhtermore it shows the split powers given from each god. It would only be understandable that a God would grant more powerfulspells to a priest worshipping only him (Clc lvl 14) than a priest that gives half his attention to a different God (Clc lvl 7/7). At least it would be fair to those clerics that focus entirely on one God.
However, I can understand and agree with the polytheistic of the FR but I still feel at odds with the idea of one priest receiving spells from 2 or more deities or in other word 2 Gods being willing to share one cleric. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 02 Nov 2006 09:17:40 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 09:53:19
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| A Triad cleric would be a different issue, it, IMHO, would be a cleric preaching of all three gods and working all their wills so to speak. He'd probably have the option to choose his domains from all three deities |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 10:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
A Triad cleric would be a different issue, it, IMHO, would be a cleric preaching of all three gods and working all their wills so to speak. He'd probably have the option to choose his domains from all three deities
Would he not have to choose from those domains that all three have in common?
For the Triad that would only leave the Domains 'Good' and 'Law'. A little limited - I agree. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 23:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
has any designer eevr explained why panthenonism is not more prevalent in the Realms? Zakhara and Kara-tur have evolved to that level in society
What do you mean? I think many FR sources (and Ed here at Candlekeep) have stated that almost everyone in the Realms worships or pays homage to several deities. Everyone knows that they exist, so a farmer might actively pay homage to Chauntea, Talos, Malar, Auril and Mielikki (for example) since they govern over things that affect his life and profession almost daily.
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-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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FR_Junkie
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 22:05:28
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its one thing to worship several gods as needed, but clerics should be more limited in this regard. I've allowed a dual-patron cleric in the past, but I made the player choose one god for his cleric domains because I ddin't like the idea of min/maxing looking for the best combo of gods to get his most favorite domains. he prayed to both gods for his spells as usualy, but his domain spells came from one side.
the only other stipulation was that the gods could not be considered enemies but they did not have to be close allies like Tyr, Torm, Ilmater. in the end, he made a cleric of Lathander & Sune, choosing domains from Lathander. |
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Duo Diety Priests
