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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 01:45:58
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Righteous. (This will always be my starting word  )
Before starting... yes... I ran a search on these forums for "weave"... I only looked over topic names mind you, but it didn't look like this was asked...
I'm a bit confused... see... In FR... if you are a mage that uses Mystra/Midnight's Weave... for your spells to work, you must be in an area where the weave works. If you are in a Dead Magic Zone, it simply means that The Weave is likely oblitterated in that area, and therefore, is not "present" there. We also know from the sourcebook Magic of Faerun (if required, I'll be happy to quote for you)... that Mystra's Weave does not apply to the home realms of all the other gods. Apparently, -they- control the magic on their own plane, Mystra does not.
This leads to the presumption... that The Weave does not encompass all areas of the universe, nor every plane. So... simply... does it only cover Faerun? Toril? The universe that Toril lies in? does it cover other planes?
Right... bad choice of words.. this isn't a "simply" question :P
And this further opens up other questions... for transplanar adventures... like... "If a wizard goes to a plane where The "Local" Weave (if it exists there) is controlled by that god, does his/her spells work on that plane when he/she normally uses Mystra's Weave?"
This even leads further into where The Shadow Weave and other similar magics extend to...
Edit: And even further... if there is so many multiple "weaves", are they transferable between eachother? Or is it some arranged thing between the gods? or....?
I'm really thinking of tossing this question at Ed (As this isn't a sourcebook thing, it's a whole campaign encompassing thing).
Questions, Comments, Linkies, Observations, etcetera, provide them now
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Stuffness.... >,> |
Edited by - BainIthron on 29 Oct 2006 01:03:04
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Aginor37
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 07:27:16
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I will take a shot at this one, but keep in mind this is just my impression based on lots of novel reading and very little sourcebook action. I am sure other fine scribes can outline this more completely than I can.
Okay, as far as I can tell the Weave extends thus. All of Toril, and all adjacent planes on which the gods of Toril have homes. The second part of that isn't 100% reliable probably, as I am basing it on Mystra's ability to cut Gods off from the Weave even in their homes (In Crucible, she cuts off Cyric's Weave access, and as a result he has to ask Jergal to open a portal to Faerun for him).
On the other hand, it seems as if at least some planes have a source of magic all their own. In Elminster in Hell, it seems to me that El's rescue would have been much easier had Mystra just cut off access to magic to Avernus and sent mortals in, instead of going herself and risking all she did. that could have been for oher unexplained reasons, but with all the mentions of unique magical phenomena in Avernus, I got the impression that the Hells had their own source of magic.
I also recall some rules in 2ed that stated that due to the fact that other planes had unique magical properties, spells might function differently. I am not sure if that carried over to 3.5 though.
Sorry if it's not as much info as you were looking for, but it's all I have at the moment. Mods, let me know if those things from novels are too spoilerish please. My reasoning for putting them in as is was that both books are old enough now that actual spoilage should be minimum, and I made them as vague as I could and still explain my view. |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 08:20:25
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I'm quite familiar with what happened in The Crucible (even I haven't really... read the novels much... I've asked this question before I found these forums before and debated wityh them :P).
Keep in mind, Magic of Faerun is 3E, not quite 3.5E. I might as well quote the passage in question, which utterly contradicts the novel "The Crucible".
quote:
Magic of Faerun, Pg. 11, under Mystra's Refusal, excerpted
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Mystra can also bar a deity from accessing the Weave, which would prevent the deity from using magic while in Faerun but not while the deity was on another plane where the Weave does not exist, such as any of the planar homes of the deities. Such an act is very draining to her, and she only does it to reduce the power of a deity intervening directly in Faerun.
...
It makes me realize that the book blatently says that The Weave does not cover everywhere. However, it never states where its boundries are specificly. In references to the weave itself, the book primarily mentions Faerun... however this leads me to be curious that if all the weave encompasses is the continent of Faerun, parts of it, or more than it.
Furthermore, we must keep in mind... that Mystra's Weave is not magic... it's merely a means of accessing and converting raw magic where The Weave is present (Think... a water purifier), which if it wasn't converted, could be very dangerous to the user, and all magical conductors around the one who attempts to access Raw Magic.
This makes me wonder if other gods of various different planes just use Raw Magic, or if they've refined it like The Weave. It really leaves a lot of questions... I can see a major Web Enhancement from this... or if someone felt like it, even possibly making a whole new book detailing various "foriegn" weaves in Faerun.
It could be that this wasn't perfectly thought through, and they couldn't think of a specific way as to do this without complication. So, still taking questions, thoughts, comments, linkies, etc. And thanks for replying, Aginor :P |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 08:33:45
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Seems to me like a question to Ed - if it has not been asked already and some wise mage here at candlekeep knows of it. (which I am sure, if it has been asked and answered by Ed somebody here deffinitely knows!)
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 29 Oct 2006 08:40:59 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 16:25:11
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| Ed has agreed with Magic of Faerun. It exists throughout FR's Prime/Toril/Faerun, depending on which book you are reading. However, it's never extended to the planes at least in 2e to 3/3.5e since the planes themselves are magical or the divine realms, if you are using 2e's planes, are powered by the magic of the deities. In 3/3.5e there is a exception to this and that is Mystra's plane. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 16:28:48
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The weave extends throughout Realmspace covering Toril and all the planets of Toril's material plane.
It also, we can extrapolate, extends to the plane of Dweomerheart.
You can imagine the Weave like an extensive power grid, which channels and controls magic, making it a useable resource. When spellcasters in the Realms use magic, they are effectively "plugging in" to the weave to tap its power.
Raw magic is akin to lightning. Uncontrolled, extremely powerful yet practically unharnessable for civilized uses.
The Shadow Weave is like a competing utility company that you can sign up with. You can't sign up with two different providers, you have to pick one or the other. And each one has its advantages and disadvantages.
A dead magic area is a spot where the lines are down. You can't plug in to the Weave in those areas. It's like a cabin in the woods or your house after a storm. You can't turn on your hairdryer or your microwave or your stereo. The Shadow Weave may not be affected by the outage, so if you have the Shadow Weave, you can cast spells as normal in a dead magic area. Of course, conversely, there may be other areas that are dead to the Shadow Weave where the Weave is still active.
A Wild Magic area is where the Weave is operative but malfunctioning. The power may be poorly regulated and unpredictable. This is akin to power surges and spikes that can fry your computer and cause your lightbulbs to burn out, or like a brown-out where the power is too low and the lights dim. Or the outlets could be casting off sparks. Your radio and TV may get lots of static.
Psionics in the Realms is like having a battery in your head. You are not plugged in to the Weave, but the power is still controlled, tame and useable. This allows you to go into dead magic areas and still use psionics. Presumably you recharge from the Weave at night when you sleep, much like charging your cell phone.
Magic in other universes and other planes does not use the Weave (well some of them may have their own Weaves) but generally follows other paradigms. A magic user from Toril can use magic just the same in other universes and planes, even though there is no weave there.
From this one might speculate that raw magic in the Realms is more powerful and wild than in other planes and universes, and needs an infrastructure like the Weave to moderate it and make it useful.
One might draw a corollary that raw magic in other universes and planes may be somewhat milder and civilized enough to use raw and therefore needs no Weave to moderate or control it. |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
502 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 18:05:29
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This does make some sense.
Casters reach crazed levels of power in Faerun where in other primes Greyhawk, where magic is actually slowly dying out their most powerful mages are weak in comparison.
So maybe the Weave is two edge blade, on the one hand it lets you focus and advance your powers quickly and tap into more powerful magic. But the down side on Faerun where there is no Weave your cut off from magic.
I remember in 2ed I think in, For Duty and Deity, had some information about magic across planes. If I remember right wizards would have to get attuned to the plane and there were step systems for magic items. There was also something about having keys of attunement. I haven't gone through it recently but it is on wizards site. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 22:09:42
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Thanks again everyone, good comments so far... this is helping more formalize what I may or may not ask, as it does seem that magic actually varies per plane.
I read through "For Duty and Deity"... it gave some good specifics. Basicly though... it says that magic is accessed the same in the Abyss as it is in Faerun, except there's a lot of different modifiers and effects based on who the targets are, what school of magic you're casting from, and if you have a magic/power key of sorts to focus your spells so they work normally or not.
Gray, very nice analogies... I'm going with the idea though that Weave users should not function if there's no "weave" present... It'd be like dead magic, where only Shadow Weave is present. So there has to be -some sort of system- for it to work I'd think, as Raw magic would just be... well... raw magic. That's just me though... any other thoughts and comments? I wanna narrow this down and focus it a bit more before posting it as a question. |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 22:26:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BainIthron
I read through "For Duty and Deity"... it gave some good specifics. Basicly though... it says that magic is accessed the same in the Abyss as it is in Faerun, except there's a lot of different modifiers and effects based on who the targets are, what school of magic you're casting from, and if you have a magic/power key of sorts to focus your spells so they work normally or not.
That's because, as I said, the planes themselves are magical. However, Mystra and her weave, or Shar and her weave, are the "gatekeepers" of magic throughout Realmspace/Toril/Faerun while the planes themselves are the "gatekeepers" of magic on those planes. Which is why water spells don't work on the plane of fire, or vice versa. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 14:21:20
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| Since people from Faerūn can cast spells in other settings like the World of Greyhawk which aren't included in the Weave, we infer that other worlds have something analogous to the Weave that works similarly where it contacts mortal spellcasters. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 14:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Since people from Faerūn can cast spells in other settings like the World of Greyhawk which aren't included in the Weave, we infer that other worlds have something analogous to the Weave that works similarly where it contacts mortal spellcasters.
I agree
I always felt "the Weave" is just the Realms name of that unnamed force that holds the "reality" of the "multiverse" together...which explains generally why a spellcaster from one world can cast a spell they know (and learnt) in one world in another world (or even Plane) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 10:11:58
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Im pretty sure that the weave is an FR only concept. I think that when on other Prime Material planes the Mage uses whatever it is that powers the magic on that Prime. The Plane itself or something else that they dont know about. Either way, I doubt the Mage really cares, so long as when the big ugly Troll comes charging down the hill at him, the Fireball he attempts to cast works.
Now as Kuje has statedt: quote:
Ed has agreed with Magic of Faerun. It exists throughout FR's Prime/Toril/Faerun
Assuming that the Prime plane is infinately vast (which I am assuming it is since the idea of crystal spheres seems to have been abolished afaik) would that not make Mystra infinately powerful? If the weave is everywhere wouldnt Mystra also be everywhere? |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 13:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Paj
Assuming that the Prime plane is infinately vast (which I am assuming it is since the idea of crystal spheres seems to have been abolished afaik) would that not make Mystra infinately powerful? If the weave is everywhere wouldnt Mystra also be everywhere?
well, first if the spelljammer Crystal Sphere rule is in place her portfolio wouldn't be past the boundaries of the crystal sphere...
and 2nd, yes she is the greatest power but she has a pile of rules placed on her (by Ao IMO), like how she has to use her Chosen (who aren't "normal" chosen like other proxie chosen) to store away energy...
I would think Ed Greenwood has discussed this in some detail some year (looks to Kuje  ) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 16:08:23
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Actually, if he agrees with Magic of Faerun, The Weave does not extend past what is "Faerun", according to the book. Whatever that means. Still warrants a good questioning :P They never use "Forgotten Realms" or "Prime Material Plane" or "universe" when it concerns The Weave.
My Theory is that they didn't want to really get into this, and couldn't come to an agreement, and then they also didn't want to complicate it with extra rules :p
I really think this would make a viable supplement, but... *shrugs*
Keep chatting, I'll think of how to form this and who to toss this is at... I'll probably toss it at Sean, then the FR Team, then finally at Ed, because the question will be fully refined into something that could possibly be tackleble for everyone :p |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 16:24:01
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| No reason to ask Ed, he's already answered it. As I said, he agrees that it exists throughout Faerun/Toril/Realmspace, depending on which book you are reading. Yes, I misspoke before and I should have said, he agrees with the 2e to 3/3.5e material. However the 3/3.5e material says two different things depending on which 3/3.5e material you are reading. One sourcebook says that the Weave exists throughout Toril and then another sourcebook says that it exists throughout Faerun. Me, I still go with the 2e material and change it to reflect the 3/3.5e material, which would make the Weave exist throughout FR's Prime. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 31 Oct 2006 16:34:30 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 20:13:12
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| I don't think we need to entertain the idea that the Weave cuts off somewhere at the edge of the Hordelands. |
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shandiris
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 09:25:41
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In my opinion that it exists throughout Faerun/Toril/Realmspace but that Mystra cant deny those on other planes than her own plane and Toril, and that the other gods can deny magic on the plane of themself.
Yet this leaves something else interesting. Can you cast lvl 11-12 spells on other planes then? |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 13:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by shandiris
Yet this leaves something else interesting. Can you cast lvl 11-12 spells on other planes then?
in a world (or sphere in 2E rules) where the god(s) of magic (and the DM ) allow it, of course 
as for the outer/inner planes, I see no reason why not, except that those spells are approaching the power level of a god...so the local deities may see you as a threat/rival, etc. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 17:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by shandiris
Yet this leaves something else interesting. Can you cast lvl 11-12 spells on other planes then?
in a world (or sphere in 2E rules) where the god(s) of magic (and the DM ) allow it, of course
as for the outer/inner planes, I see no reason why not, except that those spells are approaching the power level of a god...so the local deities may see you as a threat/rival, etc.
It also depends on if the plane itself wants such magic to be cast. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 17:57:10
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loved the battery analogy there Grey that really puts it into perspective for me although i know people who disagree with that analogy and you know who you are lol  |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of oneās mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 20:22:14
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| The utility company analogy is a wonderful way to view it. I'd even say that casting magic on another plane is akin to taking your equipment to Europe and not having a proper power adapter. Your gear MAY work, but if you have a "key" or power adapter you are able to make your spells work right with the magic supplied by said plane. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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3catcircus
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 02:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Paj
Im pretty sure that the weave is an FR only concept. I think that when on other Prime Material planes the Mage uses whatever it is that powers the magic on that Prime. The Plane itself or something else that they dont know about. Either way, I doubt the Mage really cares, so long as when the big ugly Troll comes charging down the hill at him, the Fireball he attempts to cast works.
Now as Kuje has statedt: quote:
Ed has agreed with Magic of Faerun. It exists throughout FR's Prime/Toril/Faerun
Assuming that the Prime plane is infinately vast (which I am assuming it is since the idea of crystal spheres seems to have been abolished afaik) would that not make Mystra infinately powerful? If the weave is everywhere wouldnt Mystra also be everywhere?
Hmm - the fact that the Prime is infinite has nothing to do with crystal spheres. The only thing that the crystal spheres did was quantity that there is only *one* Prime and Oerth, Toril, Krynn, Athas, etc. were simply in different crystal spheres within that single Prime.
I don't see that crystal spheres have been abolished anyway, but even if they did, the weave would only go as far as the solar system containing Toril (i.e. Realmspace). |
Edited by - 3catcircus on 03 Nov 2006 02:45:13 |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 04:35:07
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How about having the Weave being a barrier/conduit of spell energies. Ao has this requirement for Mystra to provide the power to all except those that misuse it. In the background, Mystra is actually denying full access of magic energy to Toril. Or Ao saw that unfettered magic would destroy his creation and blocked it except for the conduit Toril knows as the Weave.
Note, this is musing and not to be taken as anything close to canon. It could be put out there as one of many philosophies to confuse the situation.
If it wasn't taught to the unknowing as the Weave, would they perceive it in another way? Kind of like the blind men and the elephant.
EvilKnight |
Danali Index |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 05:51:01
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quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight
How about having the Weave being a barrier/conduit of spell energies. Ao has this requirement for Mystra to provide the power to all except those that misuse it. In the background, Mystra is actually denying full access of magic energy to Toril. Or Ao saw that unfettered magic would destroy his creation and blocked it except for the conduit Toril knows as the Weave.
Note, this is musing and not to be taken as anything close to canon. It could be put out there as one of many philosophies to confuse the situation.
If it wasn't taught to the unknowing as the Weave, would they perceive it in another way? Kind of like the blind men and the elephant.
EvilKnight
Um.... that is basically what the weave is..... one of the conduits/filters of magic through FR's prime. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 07:56:06
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| Thats Quite the noodle scratcher |
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The Weave - Where does it end? And then what?
