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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  11:35:50  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Here's what I want to know. Why do non-martial gods and goddesses have paladins? For instance, Chauntea and Sune; they don't seem to be the types. And it was mentioned elsewhere that Kelemvor, who was now considered Lawful Neutral, also has paladins. If a paladin can only be Lawful Good, how can that fallow? Do the neutral powers have alternate classes to the paladin? (I ask that because I've heard of the anti-paladin.)

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  20:11:20  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Followers of a god can be from a different alignement. It can differ from 1 step (N to L or N to C, N to G or N to E for example)
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  21:18:45  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good question.
They shouldn't have them (and don't in my campaign) because Paladins are supposed to be holy warriors. It should really depend on the deities themselves, and their tenets/beliefs as opposed to their alignments. I just can't see a god of agriculture (Chauntea) or a god of beauty (Sune) having Paladins. Their presence just doesn't make sense in relation to those gods' tenets/beliefs.
Paladins don't HAVE to be L/G, you know. There are several deities (Cyric, Loviatar, etc) that have Paladins in their ranks (or AKA Anti-Paladins). They're the same as Paladins, only evil in nature and powers. (harm instead of heal, etc.)

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  21:23:31  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bookwyrm:
quote:
Here's what I want to know. Why do non-martial gods and goddesses have paladins? For instance, Chauntea and Sune; they don't seem to be the types. And it was mentioned elsewhere that Kelemvor, who was now considered Lawful Neutral, also has paladins. If a paladin can only be Lawful Good, how can that fallow? Do the neutral powers have alternate classes to the paladin? (I ask that because I've heard of the anti-paladin.)


To use more Internet acronyms, AFAIK, the Anti-Paladin was never an official class. I believe an old Dragon article had (Un)Holy warriors for every alignment, and the CE one was called "Anti-Paladin". I don't know about the "Sword & Fist" book, but in the three core rulebooks, the closest thing to an Anti-Paladin is the Blackguard prestige class. Although a character does not have to be a Paladin to become Blackguard, it is essentially the "fallen Paladin" class.

I think my answer has strayed beyond "Realms Lore" and into "D&D Lore".

And what zemd says is correct. That means that only LG, NG and LN gods can have Paladins, which means there's no such thing as a Paladin of Tempus (CN), which seems kind of silly to me.

Edited in response to Yasraena:

I don't have the rulebooks in front of me, but according to the System Reference Document, Paladins do have to be LG. Maybe there's something in the FRCS saying that Paladins in FR don't have to be LG.

Edited by - branmakmuffin on 11 Apr 2003 01:02:02
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  21:42:31  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that's silly, after all Palladins are the perfect defenders of Good or Evil (The Blackguard is a prestige class, it should be a standard evil class) Tempus isn't affected by Good or Evil, he doesn't like any of them.
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  21:51:29  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin

Edited in response to Yasraena:

I don't have the rulebooks in front of me, but according to the System Reference Document, Paladins do have to be LG. Maybe there's something in the FRCS saying that Paladins in FR don't have to be LG.
And what zemd says is correct. That means that only LG, NG and LN gods can have Paladins, which means there's no such thing as a Paladin of Tempus (CN), which seems kind of silly to me.



Well, as the rule books say, "These rules are only a guideline", and I use the 'official' rules as such. I've never bought into the idea that Paladins have to be L/G. Traditionally, yes, they have been. But, I've always gone on the idea that if the deity has the tenets to warrant Paladins being part of their ranks, then the alignment is purely secondary. Your mention of Tempus is a perfect example of that.

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  21:59:45  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
zemd:
quote:
I don't think that's silly, after all Palladins are the perfect defenders of Good or Evil (The Blackguard is a prestige class, it should be a standard evil class) Tempus isn't affected by Good or Evil, he doesn't like any of them.


The reason goes back to what Bookwyrm said about Paladins and martial (or "lack of martial") deities. Tempus is a martial deity.

We're gonna get smacked on the wrists by Alaundo's ruler soon.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  22:14:09  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oups, once again i repeat one of Bookwyrm post. Sorry i didn't get the meaning of his post when first reading it
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2003 :  22:31:47  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
zemd:
quote:
Oups, once again i repeat one of Bookwyrm post. Sorry i didn't get the meaning of his post when first reading it


I did not mean to imply that I think you're silly if you disagree with me.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2003 :  07:14:39  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
From Dictionary.com

pal·a·din

A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.

A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court.

Someone who fights for a cause [syn: champion, fighter, hero]



\Pal"a*din\, n. [F., fr.It. paladino, fr. L. palatinus an officer of the palace. See Palatine.] A knight-errant; a distinguished champion; as, the paladins of Charlemagne. --Sir W. Scott.

[French, from Italian paladino, from Late Latin paltnus, palatine.]




Under such, I'd say that any good deity could have a paladin. After all, there's nothing in the above (save for the fighting bit) that goes against the tenents of someone like Sune.

However, I think that only deities with a more martial stance should get it. There are some that don't seem martial at first glance -- for instance, I wouldn't look twice at a paladin of the Seldarine god Corellon. But there are many that I wouldn't stretch it to -- like Sune, Chauntea, Denir, Oghma. (I'm not sure I spelled some of these right, but you know what I mean.)

I think that, from the highly martial way that WotC has treated the paladin class, it should be used only as that. Sure, that limits the other gods, but you can bend other classes. A ranger is already like a paladin in some respects . . . maybe a DM would allow something like that for the "nature" gods. It would have to be mono-alignment as well, in this case lawful neutral.

As for evil powers . . . That one you can really play with. A warrior sworn to uphold all that is vile and unwholesome. To spread pain and misery . . . . All it needs is a good name and it's a proper class.

There certainly should be more evil-flavored classes -- at least for an NPC or villain. I don't like the idea of a person actually playing a truly evil character as a PC . . . but I also like the idea of a balanced game, in all respects.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  00:21:11  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

[quote]From Dictionary.com

pal·a·din

A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.

A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court.

Someone who fights for a cause [syn: champion, fighter, hero]



\Pal"a*din\, n. [F., fr.It. paladino, fr. L. palatinus an officer of the palace. See Palatine.] A knight-errant; a distinguished champion; as, the paladins of Charlemagne. --Sir W. Scott.

[French, from Italian paladino, from Late Latin paltnus, palatine.]




Nice one Bookwyrm.
But there ya go... the fighting/martial part is an INTREGAL part of the class, therefore deities such as the ones you mentioned shouldn't (and wouldn't) have paladins in their ranks. It just doesn't make sense for them to have them. A paladin of love and beauty? Or of Agriculture? Those examples really go against what the class is supposed to be about.

I still like the idea of the Anti-Paladin(for lack of a better name). The complete opposite of what a Paladin is. Good/evil, wholesomeness/vileness, healing/misery. What else could the class be?

Hey... this might be a good reply post to your 'new classes' topic!

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  05:56:23  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it seems that Sune has Paladins after all. So i'll read more on the subject and tell more later
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  07:54:06  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by zemd

Well it seems that Sune has Paladins after all. So i'll read more on the subject and tell more later



Yasraena reads the scroll that zemd offered....

! What's this "A Paladin may choose their deity" BS? You can't become a Paladin unles the deities' order chooses you!!! AUUUGH!!! There's one more reason for me to hate 3rd Edition!

"They seek out and destroy creatures that are particularly hideous in their evil." Isn't that one of the things that ALL paladins do? Why not just let a good pacifist deity have them too?!?!
If anyone wants to have a Paladin of Sune in their campaign, far be it from me to tell them they can't. I just think they need to read a little more on what Paladins are OUTSIDE of D&D canon, because THAT was just... well... AUUGH!

Sorry for the rant, but that REALLY got to me.

Mournblade: I would love to hear your thoughts on this being that you're a history buff and all. You've had to have read about Paladins in your studies, especially on your travels to Europe. PLEASE tell us why you allow a Paladin of Sune in your campaign.

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  08:52:13  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wrong thread, Yasraena. But I'm sure Mournblade will be along shortly. I too would like to hear what he has to say, as well as where in Europe he's been.

Now, um . . . you seem to have changed your stance all of a sudden, Yasraena. First you say you wouldn't allow it, then you say you would. Which is it?

And I believe what Zemd meant was that the player running the character of the paladin has the choice. Game terms, in other words. In "reality" the paladin would be doing just what you're insisting -- getting "called to serve." The player just chooses who does the calling.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

Edited by - Bookwyrm on 10 Apr 2003 08:57:32
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  09:28:47  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Wrong thread, Yasraena. But I'm sure Mournblade will be along shortly. I too would like to hear what he has to say, as well as where in Europe he's been.



I hope so. I emailed him with just such a request.
His post on the other thread that zemd linked to was why I put that last comment on my last post.

quote:

Now, um . . . you seem to have changed your stance all of a sudden, Yasraena. First you say you wouldn't allow it, then you say you would. Which is it?



I honestly don't see how you came to that after re-reading it, but...
To clarify - I wouldn't allow it and still won't allow it in my campaign. If someone else wants to allow it, who am I to say they can't? I completely disagree with them, but, it's their game, their decision.

quote:
And I believe what Zemd meant was that the player running the character of the paladin has the choice. Game terms, in other words. In "reality" the paladin would be doing just what you're insisting -- getting "called to serve." The player just chooses who does the calling.



zemd didn't say that. She put in a link to the other topic because one post on it (from Mournblade) had some relevance to what we were discussing. It was the line from the 3E FRCS about Sune's Paladins that I was ranting about. Friggin' 3E, man. I really just despise it.

Not to sound like a total a-hole, but did you follow her link and read the post?

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  12:18:56  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by zemd

Followers of a god can be from a different alignement. It can differ from 1 step (N to L or N to C, N to G or N to E for example)



Shame on me!

It's a completer mistake. For example Sune is CG but she CAN have LG followers (2E book Faith & Avatars) In fact it depends on the deity. Oghma can have followers of any alignement.
I don't know for 3E, coz i don't have my books at hand (forgot them in one of my players car )

... And an other mistake i made about palladins...
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2003 :  18:24:48  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like zemd, I thought Clerics and Paladins could only differ from their god'a alignment by one degree, but that would seem to be incorrect and that it only applies to Cerlics. However, see Sune's entry in 3e "Faiths & Pantheons"

Here's a list of deities from F&P that have "Paladins" listed under "Worshippers" (which is not to say that is proof only those gods may have Paladins):

Helm

Ilmater

Sune has Paladins listed like this:
"Clerics' alignments: CG, CN, LG (Paladins only), NG." This seems to imply that the "one step removed" rule applies to Paladins as well as Clerics, with Sune being the proverbial exception that proves the rule.

Torm

Tyr

Jergal

Nobanion

Clangeddin

Gaerdal Ironhand

Arvoreen

Yondalla

Horus-re

Osiris

Edited by - branmakmuffin on 10 Apr 2003 23:48:06
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  00:12:40  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Anti-paladin was NEVER an official class. It was first presented in the Original box set of D&D as a suggestion (1974, The white box), along with the anti-cleric. The anti-paladin reached popularity after it was published in the article "Good got you down? Try THIS for evil" in Dragon #39. Dragon also printed an article in issue #106 entitled a "Plethora of Paladins" which was fun because it had a paladin for EACH alignment. THe chaotic Neutral one was great I remember. You had to roll a die to decide to do an action. I actually use this article STILL to come up with prestige classes, but I haven't been able to really come up with one that is REAL great.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  00:39:39  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are certainly a couple of points to be made. OUTSIDE of D&D canon, such as Medieval history the PALADIN as a warrior is only mentioned in reference to the Carolingian empire of Charlemagne. These Paladins were a holy warrior as they were Charlemagne's personal knights. The carolingian empire was strong from approx. 750 AD too 850 AD, but the paladins would have really reached their height when, in 800, Charlemagne was declared Holy Roman Emperor of the WEST (remember there was still Byzantium the eastern empire) by Pope Leo. This made Charlemagne TRULY holy. Many people (Not anyone here) mistakenly think the paladin was taken from the CRUSADES. The first Crusade was in 1096, LONG after Charlemagne. Basically, the Paladins were around when the technology level was still Dark Ages, i.e. chain mail at best, more likely ring mail. The carolingians constantly fought the vikings, and the Empire was definitely the start to Chivalry as we know it. Charlemagne took it upon himself to defeat the pagan Vikings and Saxons. Well of course he beat the SAXONS, but as he learned, Odin and Thor were not yet ready to commit to RAGNAROK. The vikings beat him; over and over again.

My belief is that the Paladins were founded off the concept of the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR and Knights Hospitaller. The templar were Warrior monks that defended the church. Historically there could be THREE orders of Knights that stand out as inspiration for paladins: KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, Knights Hospitaler, and The Teutonic Knights. The Knights templar were the most renowned, the Order of the Temple. Their job was to protect Pilgrims on thier way to Jerusalem. They had a mantra: FIRST TO FIGHT, THE LAST TO RETREAT. Members of the Knights Templar were known too charge 100 muslims with only 20 men. This particular incident got them beheaded by Saladin. They took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience so they seem to fit the bill of a D&D Paladin. The Knights Templar it is recorded were VERY DIFFICULT to hold back from battle. (just a note of trivia: Christopher Columbus sailed under the Banner of the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, though at that point in time they had been "destroyed")

The Order of the Hospital was established in Jerusalem in 1099. Thier job as noble Knights and warriors was to take care of the SICK AND THE POOR (hmmmm lay on hands anyone) in Jerusalem. By 1113 they were under DIRECT authority of the pope, and they were parrallel to the Order of the Temple.

I do not know that much about the Teutonic Knights. But they were around in the middle to late middle ages, and they were german knights (The WW I german symbol is a teutonic cross) that defended the Eastern borders of Europe from the Huns and Magyars (Mongol horde types). These guys WERE TOUGH. I wish I knew more.

So actually the D&D concept of the paladin has much more to do with the Crusade orders than the ACTUAL Paladins of the Dark Ages.

More to come. This is too long and I am going to start another post.

URG. I had to edit this. IT was way to choppy before. I never organize my thoughts before writing these things:)

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

Edited by - Mournblade on 11 Apr 2003 01:20:02
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  01:16:27  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK so now there is a question Why should peaceful gods have Paladins?
(NOTE: I AM GOING TO USE CHRISTIANITY S AN EXAMPLE ONLY AND IT IS IN NO WAY COMMENTARY ON THIS RELIGION)

Historically, is the Christian God really warlike. What did Jesus teach? Turn the other cheek...

Yet there are Orders of Knights such as the Templar that say "killing for Christ is malecide not homicide." The templars got inspired by St. Bernard's declaration of "to kill a pagan is to win glory, for it gives glory to Christ." This sounds pretty warlike for a religion that preaches peace, and love. In the fourth century St. Martin preached, "I am a soldier of Christ, I must not shed blood." By the middle ages this view was countered, and the medieval wars we know so well involving Christianity emerged. NOTE: I only study religion as it applies to history. So if I am wrong in any of this feel free to let me know, and if I have offended anyone I apologize.

Back to Reality... errr...Fantasy

Lets look at Eldath (NG). She is the goddess of Peace and Water. In order to protect her faithful she may sanction an order of Holy Paladins to protect bodies of water and her faithful. Look at the Hospitalers, for a moment. They were established as PROTECTORS, not Warriors. This is most likely what paladins of eldath would do.

Kelemvor is LN. He has paladins; another paradox I love. He HATES the undead, and so he sanctions Paladins to seek and destroy undead. Yes his clerics can do it as well, but they are not as efficient warriors. Also Paladins will give sanctuary to those who are mourning just as the priests would do.

Chauntea who is also NG would also sanctify paladins. WHY? Well especially with the dangers too Farmers in Amn with the push of the Sythillisians, an order of warriors must be established to protect the faithful.

Lawful and Good are paramount to being a paladin. So why would these gods have their protection arm Lawful Good and not Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral. MY explanation is that the paladin derives its power from the forces of these two ethics and mores. I play a game where alignment is very tangible. Also the god chooses the paladin based on thier discipline (Lawful) and thier desire to help others (good). I think the gods want Altruism in their protectors. Kelemvor's LN protectors would definitely fight valiantly to protect the faithful, but they would be spurned on by faith alone. Being Lawful good, they are spurned by faith and CONCERN.

The Divine Champion prestige class is a special crusader for each god. With powers like Smite Infidel, it shows a more Martial focus than even the paladin. The paladins mix of warrior skills and PROTECTION abilities make them the perfect watchdogs for their church or temple. ALSO, the Paladin is the PERFECT ambassador to followers of other good gods. The Divine Champion is a balance for gods that cannot sanction paladins, but Divine Champions can only help members of thier own religion. With Eldath sanctioning the use of paladins, she is not only protecting her faithful, she is adding to the power of GOOD Overall. Of course if you run the type of game where alignment is arbitrary, than this explanation is meaningless.

Paladin is a definite bonus for any LG NG LN god, and this is why I allow Blackguards. They are the perfect balance, though my Black guard has a little more ummmph to him, since I put in some items from the Anti-Paladin class.

I do not sanction the use of Chaotic Good gods getting Paladins, but since in the cosmology of the realms it is possible for Sune to have them, I allow it. She is a great spin to the paladins! I also have an NPC Paladin/Inquisitor for Tyr, that though he is good, he has actually been the ANTAGONIST in two adventures. Very fun to see how good aligned players handle a good 'villain'.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

Edited by - Mournblade on 11 Apr 2003 01:23:19
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  05:54:03  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow Mournblade. You definitely know your stuff on this subject.
The 'protector' slant to the idea really makes sense, when used with the actual origin/history of Paladins (Knights of the Templar vs. Knights of the Hospital). I always saw them as strictly warrior types, albeit holy ones. I guess a better way of saying it would be that a 'traditional' paldin goes and looks for evil to fight (Knights of the Templar), as opposed to a 'protector'(Knights of the Hospital) who wouldn't neccessarily go and seek out evil, but would fight it to protect their interests.
I have to admit, that after reading your post, the thought of non-martial deities having Paladins doesn't sound so ridiculous anymore.
I still say Sune would never have traditional Paladins, but protectors I could definitely see her having.

My aplogies to everyone. I stand corrected.

"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  09:04:57  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You, Yasraena? I'm the one who started this topic in the first place!

But boy do I agree with you. Mournblade, congratulations on your eloquence. I'm both highly impressed and quite convinced.

And by the way, I was initially irritated, scanning the topic since my last visit, that you made three posts in a row. As I metioned elsewhere, it's one of my pet peeves -- my only two exceptions are a) responding to someone who posted while you were posting, and b) after a certain period of time or when you have new information you didn't have during that previous post.

But the information you gave in those posts . . . . Oh, if this site had a "jealous" face, I'd use it. That was more than worth the extra posts. In fact, if I were moderator, I'd give you extra points to your post count. (No, Alaundo, I'm not telling you how to do your job. )

Now, let me address all of this in order.

quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena

zemd didn't say that. She put in a link to the other topic because one post on it (from Mournblade) had some relevance to what we were discussing. It was the line from the 3E FRCS about Sune's Paladins that I was ranting about. Friggin' 3E, man. I really just despise it.

Not to sound like a total a-hole, but did you follow her link and read the post?



Yasraena, I didn't click on the link. That was because there was only one thing Zemd could have been refering to, and I had just come from there. I still thought you were refering to Zemd at the time; and anyway, my statement stands. You can just substitute the "Zemd" for "WotC" now.

Now for Mournblade.

quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94

The Anti-paladin was NEVER an official class.



I pretty much figured that it wasn't. I found out about it from an article (not the one you mentioned) that mentioned it as an alternate class. I'm a big fan of using non-"official" things, to vary the play. (If anyone's interested, I've got a great hack of Civilization: Call to Power that works better than the out-of-box game.)

That's why I started my other thread, New Classes. I wanted to know of some other classes like that. I've got a kind of claustrophobia -- I hate limited things, like "If it's not in X, you can't do it!" (Ask Elph -- we once played a trading card game over the Internet using what I modestly termed "The Bookwyrm Rules."

quote:

Dragon also printed an article in issue #106 entitled a "Plethora of Paladins" which was fun because it had a paladin for EACH alignment.



Do you think you could quote or summerize those classes for the above thread? Assuming you think it wouldn't violate copyright, of course. I would really like to hear more on that.

quote:

My belief is that the Paladins were founded off the concept of the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR ... They had a mantra: FIRST TO FIGHT, THE LAST TO RETREAT. Members of the Knights Templar were known too charge 100 muslims with only 20 men. ... They took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience so they seem to fit the bill of a D&D Paladin...



Yes, that makes sense. When I posted that bit on the definition of paladin, I wasn't suggesting that they were from Charlemagne; I was just talking about the word.

quote:

Historically, is the Christian God really warlike...



Okay, I've mentioned before that I'm devoutly Catholic. That doesn't mean that I'm about to preach; in fact, I actually agree. But let me back up a moment.

What the Bible actually teaches is not peace in all things. That's the ideal state, what we should strive for. (Think Plato's Republic.) It doesn't say "don't fight at all" or "don't resist the invaders who want to kill your family." The bit about the cheek that is so famous is actually refering to insults, not fighting.

So this is my interpretaion: Don't fight wars for the sake of war, or for selfish reasons. Rather, fight only when it is necessary to prevent greater harm, and never let it continue past that point.

I'm reminded of a scene from the movie Merlin. I haven't seen it for a while, but the part I'm thinking of goes like this:


King: "I thought these 'Christians' didn't believe in fighting."
Courtier: "Oh, only in a 'holy cause' -- and killing you is a holy cause."
King: "So they are just like other men. They fight when it suits them."


How true. How very, very true.

You were quite right with your statement, "This sounds pretty warlike for a religion that preaches peace, and love." But keep in mind that these are men -- mortal humans -- saying this. I personally don't agree with the statements you quoted -- either extreme, in fact -- and I won't try to defend them. But for the medieval war stance of Christianity -- well, they didn't call 'em the Dark Ages for nothin', buddy.

It's a sad truth that some people can justify all the things that have been done in the name of Christ. I recall what happened when Montezuma knocked the Bible onto the ground. He didn't know what it was -- he didn't even know what a book was. But the priest who had just started to attempt converting him instead shouted to the soldiers that Christ called for the blood of this man, and that the sin of killing him was forgiven even before it happened.

I still shudder at that, and wonder how someone so stupid could be a man of God.

Do it in the name of Heaven
You can justify it in the end.
-- One Tin Soldier

Don't worry. I'm moving on now.

quote:

Lets look at Eldath (NG). She is the goddess of Peace and Water. In order to protect her faithful she may sanction an order of Holy Paladins to protect bodies of water and her faithful. Look at the Hospitalers, for a moment. They were established as PROTECTORS, not Warriors. This is most likely what paladins of eldath would do.

Kelemvor is LN. He has paladins; another paradox I love. He HATES the undead, and so he sanctions Paladins to seek and destroy undead. Yes his clerics can do it as well, but they are not as efficient warriors. Also Paladins will give sanctuary to those who are mourning just as the priests would do.

Chauntea who is also NG would also sanctify paladins. WHY? Well especially with the dangers too Farmers in Amn with the push of the Sythillisians, an order of warriors must be established to protect the faithful.



All very good points. And you've convinced me. But there should be special credos to that. For the biggest example, I can't imagine why a paladin of Eldath would be adventuring. (S)He would very likely be traveling, but not searching out evil. That order would be only protectors. As an adventuring class, it seems highly limited. The others, though, I like.

quote:

Lawful and Good are paramount to being a paladin. So why would these gods have their protection arm Lawful Good and not Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral. MY explanation is that the paladin derives its power from the forces of these two ethics and mores. ... Also the god chooses the paladin based on thier discipline (Lawful) and thier desire to help others (good). I think the gods want Altruism in their protectors. Kelemvor's LN protectors would definitely fight valiantly to protect the faithful, but they would be spurned on by faith alone. Being Lawful good, they are spurned by faith and CONCERN.



Very good points. I (obviously) hadn't thought of it that way.

However, I still think that the Paladin class is overly martial for some things. While I now agree with you on why paladins should be allowed to the gods and goddesses you have mentioned, I think DMs should still make a distinction between paladins of warlike deities versus those who aren't.

quote:

...I play a game where alignment is very tangible...



Good for you! I think alignment is very important. Everything a player does should be based on the character's alignment. A player should only do things against it when (s)he's fully aware of it, and a DM should always warn him/her.

quote:

Paladin is a definite bonus for any LG NG LN god, and this is why I allow Blackguards. They are the perfect balance, though my Black guard has a little more ummmph to him, since I put in some items from the Anti-Paladin class.



Please, tell us more on the New Classes thread. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for people to talk about.

quote:

I also have an NPC Paladin/Inquisitor for Tyr, that though he is good, he has actually been the ANTAGONIST in two adventures. Very fun to see how good aligned players handle a good 'villain'.



Another thing I like. I like new spins.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  12:22:46  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

You can just substitute the "Zemd" for "WotC" now.


What does that mean?
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  12:33:39  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't worry, Zemd, I was just talking about my statement earlier in this thread, not in general. In other words, I was saying that:

"...And I believe what Zemd meant was ..."

Should now say:

"...And I believe what Wizards meant was ..."

I had thought that she was talking about something you said, not something Mournblade was quoting. But the rest of the statement is still true.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  14:02:28  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hate paladins for what they are : despotic closed-minded followers of the most stupid gods. Well, i hate them when my character is not a one...
But, i can imagine a paladin follower of Sune, i think it could be funny to play.
Yep, Zemd, if eilinel die with the paladin, u know what i'll play now.
If u agree. The Sune's avenger, that sounds strange.

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  14:06:34  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow. What do you know. I got her to speak after -- what was it, five months? I remember it was November something.

Is she always this quiet in gaming too, Zemd?

=====================

By the way, congratulations on becoming the #1 ranked scribe. I happened to go to the Members list, and there you were, sitting at the top. It looked strange having Mumadar in second place.

It's the end of an era, folks.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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Edited by - Bookwyrm on 11 Apr 2003 14:11:45
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