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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  15:05:22  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94

<snipped excellent stuff> (just a note of trivia: Christopher Columbus sailed under the Banner of the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, though at that point in time they had been "destroyed")
<snipped more excellent stuff>


From the scrolls of obscurity and the occult...

Free Masons & Templars... closely related, not proven, but very likely the Free Masons are what remains of the Knights Templar after the order was disbanded.

Oh, btw, they were excellent bankers, maybe that's where the Swiss got their ideas from...

Yasreena, I do have a paladin of Sune in one of my games, and given the rule guidelines, it is a precarious balance the guy walks. But it is doable.

Taking away the limitation of Lawful and Good makes the paladin just a fighter with some fancy add-ons. It is the adherence to law (in spirit or letter or both) and the motivation/will to do good by 'leading by example' which sets the paladin apart.

Faerunian deities which do not have a strong moral or 'lawful' code ought not to have paladin like orders. There would be no incentive for a paladin like type to follow the tenets of for instance a CN deity. That would be more the province of 'crazy' fanatics, which is not necesarrily similar with paladins.
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  15:12:09  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Wow. What do you know. I got her to speak after -- what was it, five months? I remember it was November something.

Is she always this quiet in gaming too, Zemd?



i don't think so, but i wonder what the answer of my dear DM will be...
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  18:44:08  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel


quote:
Wow. What do you know. I got her to speak after -- what was it, five months? I remember it was November something.

Is she always this quiet in gaming too, Zemd?



i don't think so, but i wonder what the answer of my dear DM will be...




Not at all! Maybe it's because she speaks so much during gaming sessions that she lost her voice and couldn't "speak" here!
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  19:40:59  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, she's certainly making up for it now! She's looking to be almost as talkative as I am.

Almost.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2003 :  22:35:39  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are all FAR too kind. That Paladin info was just the result of spending lots of time reading instead of socializing like I should...

I will post interesting things I find from the paladin articles. Most of it is going to be copy and paste though, because I am a terrible copy typist.

Just so we are clear, I did not INVENT the paladin of Sune. I allow anything in my campaign the FR guides allow.

I apologize to anyone I may have misled or offended with using Christianity as an example. I am a scientist, and a historian. I know only common knowledge about religion outside of history even though I was born Episcopalion. I was using what I knew about Christianity to illustrate a point only. As was pointed out, I was misinterpreting most of it.

If you are at all interested in a good book on the Crusades read "Warriors of God" By James Renton Jr. It is an excellent account of Richard I and Saladin. This does not focus on the Knightly orders, but it brings alot of religious and political history into perspective. Beware of books about the Knights Templar. Be sure you are getting a history book and not an occult book. There is a ton of misinformation about the Knights Templar.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  15:21:06  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Sociallizing?" . . . . What's that?

And I wouldn't call it a misinterpratation. Just a different one. History isn't exactly immutable, and especially not religion.

And you're quite right about the things people say about the Templars. The reason they were disbanded (or the primary one) was because of an accusation of pagantry and idolatry. In reality, it was confusion about the Shroud of Turin -- and if you know what that is, then you know they still aren't agreeing about its actual nature.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  17:44:07  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When the Templars were tried as Heretics soem went into hiding, and others went to Portugal. The Templars often went to jerusalem, even when it was in Muslim hands, and they travelled there by boat. Templars became GREAT sailors by the 13th century. IN Portugal, it is beleived, some of the remnants of the Order, formed the Knights of Portugal, (I may have the name wrong) which essentially became a sailing order. One famous member of this order was an Italian Sailor named Christopher Columbus. He had the sails of the Santa Maria decorated with a cross of course, but he very specifically wanted it to be a RED cross on a white field. This was ONE of the Banners of the Knights templar. And it is VERY possible the KNights of Portugal reached the shores of Virginia in the 1500's, about 70 years before the English did. THis is STILL in debate.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  19:04:26  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention a book that some of you might be familiar with. Elizabeth Moon wrote a Series of books called the "Deeds of Paksennarion". This is an excellent account of how a girl bought on a sheepfarm, becomes a soldier, and then some paladins recognize she may be one of them. She goes into paladin training, gets captured by a race of underground evil elves(hmmmmmm....), sinks to a low, and then fully grows into a Paladin. It is such a great account of the journey one would take to become a Paladin. It is just INCREDIBLE.

Elizabeth Moon, is a woman who was a former Marine. She has alot of military know how, and her books reflect this. SHe also did a great sci-fi series on a space navy. Anyone that is interested in Paladins should read this book. It is not a book sanctioned by the publishers of D&D, but it certainly IS based on the material.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  21:52:31  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And don't forget the prequel, The Legacy of Gird. That's the story of how the guy that Paksenarrion's order follows got to be who he is: a power (not a god or demigod, more along the lines of a Christian saint) that works through a militant order to protect the people.

That book (well, two books, but I read it in the omnibus) is actually a better read than The Deed of Paksenarrion (a trilogy, also in an omnibus), but there are no paladins in it. (Save for a mention right at the end, which isn't a spoiler.)

The Deed of Paksenarrion, though, is very good for anyone who likes fantasy paladins like in D&D or the militant orders like the Templars or the Hospitaliars.

However, those are the only books by Elizabeth Moon that I think are worth it. Her science fiction stories grate on my scientific nerves. Her description of the behavior of light really got my goat.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  23:25:33  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never read her sci fi books. And I never read the prequel either. But I heard from everyone it was great.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2003 :  15:14:47  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, i read some of her books (a part of), it was so badly written that i stopped : i felt hang over...
However, i don't think that Templars look like paladins, as its decribed in DnD. Well, actually they look like but they don't feel like, if u see what i mean. They are probably responsable of the biggest masacres ever seen in the Middle Age -after those done by the Teutones in the east of Europe-
Anyway, they were the best warriors of the South, Teutones staying the best of the North. Then come the french and first Spanish chevalry.
ok, i stop its becomming boring. If u want more information about Middle Age in Europe, call me, im fond of this part of History.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2003 :  15:35:54  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Mournblade was talking more about the ideals of these orders, not how well they performed them. After all, human nature isn't perfect.


Bookwyrm casts a message spell.
(Psst . . . Eilinel! Try David Weber! Trust me!)

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2003 :  16:31:33  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
isn't perfect, isn't perfect... not perfect at all!!!
Believe me, teutones were frenetic fanatics!
Even when the order was destroyed -against other christians...- they fought one against ten or twenty ! few stopped before the end.

David Weber, ok. Let's try a sense motive check...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2003 :  23:40:28  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilenil is absolutely correct. We shall certainly have to exchange ideas sometimes!!!!!!

The Teutonic Order conquered much of what we know now as Latvia and Estonia by the year 1483. They essentially stole it from other christians.

The templars were FANATICS. They massacred people, but not as bad as Richard The Lionheart. The massacres by the Templars were not on the scale of general Crusaders however. If one is going to point out the massacres and atrocities of Teutons and Templars, lets not forget the Spanish Chivalry who would slaughter women and children for being anything other than CHristian. Or the Spanish Chivalry slaughtering Jews and Muslims that would not leave spain in 1492.

The point is, the middle ages was a time of harsh warfare, where human rights were practically non existent. It is safe to say, the IDEAL of chivalry is righteous and Just. The PRACTICE of chivalry, whether it was by French, English, or Danes was an excuse to shed blood. The chivalry we study is ideal, and not how it was acted in the middle ages. KNIGHTS WERE BULLYS.

According to Sydney Painter's "French Chivalry" if a Noble night had lustful urges, it was acceptable for him to rape a peasant woman, as they were not considered 'ladies'.

Eilenil you are absolutely correct. But let us not forget to put the Teutonic Knights and Templars within the scope of the time period. The middle ages was a time of brutality.

But I still LOVE it.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2003 :  03:22:25  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's the whole purpose of fantasy and fiction, isn't it? How we can take all the parts we want from something like the Templars (like their ideals) and put them in something like the paladin. Just because of the facts not being pure doesn't mean that the fiction is tainted.

We weren't raising the Templars to be a perfect order. And the examples Mournblade quoted are things I consider horrific, even under the context of the day (and I'm very good at seeing things in context). So don't put words in our mouths.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2003 :  08:10:34  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks mournblade

Lets charge against infidels and kill'em all!!!
sounds of slashing and burning, cries...

ok, ok, its fantasy... and the evil exists in fantasy. But, dot tell me that gods like Tyr are open-minded, ill laugh.

and the rats tend to disappear in the street in fantasy games...

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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  03:23:18  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HAH HAH!

Well Eilenil, except for cities with Mythal's I have Rats on the streets of my cities:) AND I agree, Tyr I invision as a VERY closed minded god. Just read my dragon and paladin incident to see that. The god of justice I envision as VERY strict. But I do NOT envision him Massacring people. Unlike this world, the elements of Good and Evil are tangible in the forgotten realms, and Tyr certainly follows them.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  08:11:32  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What i find weird about Tyr is that he is supposed to be Lawful GOOD. So when he is the Judge during the trials; he should naturaly favorise the 'good' side. IMO, the god of justice should be LN
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  08:29:42  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*blink*

Um, I seem to recall from Prince of Lies that Tyr was a neutral power . . . and that was why he was delivering the verdict to Mystra that she had to reconnect Cyric to the Weave . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  09:07:07  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And why loyal? Does it mean that he tends to make more verdicts against chaotic beings?
I feel better with a loyal justice, sure, but it doesn't seem normal for me.

there is elf justice which is chatic good too.
The justice is like everything, so subjectiv.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  09:22:33  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree Bookwyrm, in Prince of Lies is neutral. But in his statistics, he's LG.
But i still think that Lawful is the best. After all, he must stands to the laws edicted by Ao. Imo, for what it worths
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  09:49:18  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And why should have a lawful alignment?
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  09:54:23  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When you're LAWful, you follow the LAWS. I think a judge must interprete the laws without favoriting anyone.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  17:31:02  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quite right, Zemd. The whole aspect of a fair judge is one who favors no particular side. That's hard to do, of course, being as judges are merely human (I'm talking about our world now).

One example of what I think is the best sort of system for a judge to work under is in the United States Constitution. I'm not talking about the-American-way-is-superior-to-all; this is just the only example I know the specifics of off the top of my head. Nor am I talking about laws, just the system as it pertains to the judge.

See, under the Constituion, a Supreme Court Justice is appointed by the President whenever there is a vacancy. So a Justice might feel obligated to rule in the President's favor. But that isn't always true. See, a Justice is appointed for life.

Why is that important? Because the Justice is never up for reelection, and so doesn't have to please anyone! (S)He can freely rule to the letter of the law without worrying that (s)he's going to loose that cushy job.

The first time this happened was when (I think it was President James Madison, but I'm horrible with names) a president appointed a Justice who was a good friend of his. However, that Justice never ruled in his friend's favor simply because he was a friend. He instead stuck to the letter of the law. (His friend wasn't happy, I can tell you that.)

Now, I'm not saying that the US Supreme Court is perfect -- I've really hated some stupid decisions they've made in the past. All I'm saying is that for a judge to be effective, (s)he needs to be free of constraints of public opinion.

Let's go back to D&D.

If the judge in question is Lawful Good, then that's not too bad. And in fact, most people would think that it's the best. However, this judge might not rule in favor of greatest balance, and instead focus on the immediate good. A judge who interperates laws in the English system (which is what is used in most of the world and in D&D as well) has to look long-term.

A Chaotic judge, what ever the moral alignment would be, would tend to act like acting erratically. A lot like trying to please the most amount of people, as if knowing election time is near.

If I were to go through all nine alignments, then that would not only take too long, it would also be repeating a lot of information. So, I'll just leave it like that.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  18:28:02  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A chaotc judge would also decide as he feels, not as the law should be interprated.
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