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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2006 : 20:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
Also to add to this I'd rather avoid telling to PCs that (for example) dwarves are provided a manual of sex positions when they are young, that all elves are bisexual (I'm not trying to offend anyone), that gnomes like toys, that amongst halflings homosexuality is fairly common and sex between relatives (disgusting) that ogre mages are sadomasochists and about necrophilia (undead) thing. So I think that the book shouldn't contained such things, others you've mentioned are quite useful.
Well.
I think it should contain such things because all of these have happened on Earth. The USA, and other countries, had to pass laws saying it's illegal to have sex with corpses. They wouldn't have done that if people weren't having sex with corpses. And a lot of families had sex and offspring with their relatives. It's not as "common" as it used to be, thank the gods.
And thinking about this a bit more, look at the elven pantheon. Sehanine is Corellon's wife but it's also said that she's his daughter. Then you have the trideity that is made up of a part of her that is also Corellon's lover as are some of the other female deities of the Seldarine. Talk about a disfunctional pantheon. Then throw in Lloth who was also his wife/lover and tried to kill him.
Furthermore, look at all of the tales about vampires that came from Earth. You really can't tell me that all of those tales didn't contain some sex with undead. :) Some sentient undead would still feel emotions and feelings and so some of them would want to have relationships and or be able to feel what a living being feels.
You know, thinking about this a bit more, anyone that isn't a werecreature that has sex with a werecreature is technically involving themselves in a form of beastility, if we use the English definition. And since there are natural/born werecreatures, someone has to be having sex with each other to make them. :)
Ed has discussed a few times how elves like to experiment with different partners.
And then you have all those fertility/pleasure festivals in FR. Plus the chapbooks that contain well, sexual positions, romance, etc. Sharess's clergy would be the clergy that would mostly write/print the sex/sensuality chapbooks while the chapbooks of Sune's clergy would focus on love. And Orcus's or Velsharoon's would focus on having sex with undead. :) Loviatar's, of course, would be about BDSM. Etc |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Oct 2006 22:58:55 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2006 : 21:33:57
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Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...  |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 14:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you are talking about the Book of Erotic Fantasy, it's really not as bad as the comments about it said it was. I have a copy and I've made use of some of the material within it, more then once.
The breeding/offspring chapter is pretty good and sometimes the sexual diseases could be interesting plot hooks when you got someone like Talona running around. Of course, so are the ideas for the sexual items, etc.
Shrug. I say bravo for them having the guts to write a sourcebook dealing with sex/sensuality/pleasure.
There is also that Nymphology 'sourcebook'...similiar to the BoEF in some ways but focuses on the arcane.
Nymphology was a bit juvenile for my tastes, but it was meant to be that way so that's fine. It was more tongue-in-cheek then the BoEF.
I always thought Nymphology was a bit of a joke actually, meant for campaigns that featured comedic elements - - and not really for the serious DM and their serious campaign.
And Book of Erotic Fantasy was the source I was thinking of. I don't have much DMing experience, but the few games I've ran that feature sex have been mader easier to handle because of this book.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 20:52:16
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Well, before Book of Erotic Fantasy was made, there was a netbook called "Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge"... slowly being worked on converted for 3E. Of course, they never finished... A lot similar to Book of Erotic Fantasy, from what I read when I skimmed through it... but it was much more funny in a lot of respects, and useful.
as for... Cleric of Sharress? Yes yes... I took the interpretation of Sharress's dogma quite litterally. So I made a Cleric of Sharress obsessed with the pleasures of... food! Lots of skillpoints in Profession: Cook, and he would create magical foods via the Craft Wondrous Items feat. FR setting, so I made him from Calimshan, gave him a turkish-like name, and made him the son of a preistess of Sharress who was a known "Courtesan" in the area. For a particular campaign that was short lived out in the middle of nowhere, I dropped a lot of points in survival so he could find the food he needed :P |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Silvanus79
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 21:39:54
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<<And thinking about this a bit more, look at the elven pantheon. Sehanine is Corellon's wife but it's also said that she's his daughter. Then you have the trideity that is made up of a part of her that is also Corellon's lover as are some of the other female deities of the Seldarine. Talk about a disfunctional pantheon. Then throw in Lloth who was also his wife/lover and tried to kill him.
>>
Does this mean we'll see the Seldarine on Jerry Springer?
Seriously, though, I agree very much with BainIthron -- clerics of Sharess in my games aren't necessarily sex addicts, but individuals who enjoy the pleasures of life as a whole. Of course, using old Planescape rules, I'd like to see a cleric of Sharess join the Society of Sensation. Now THAT would be something to see.
In my own games, the only encounter I ever had with the actual clergy of Sharess, outside of individual clerics, was an orgy that the PCs were invited to. It was inspired by the opening to one of the "Blade" movies, and was infiltrated by a vampire and his vampire spawn. That was quite the melee. Anyway, the party was very happy to learn just how "thankful" the priestesses of Sharess could be for their assistance. |
Procrastinators unite! Tomorrow. |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 06:36:47
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Eh... Trust me, I have no problem playing or playing with a Sharresan Cleric who's a nymphomaniac... however... c'mon, how original is that? :P
I rarely play clerics as it is... however... if I do play a cleric, I'd want to play something at least semi-original. The best way to do this is pick a random deity, and read their dogma veeeeeeeeeeeery carefully, and look for parts open for interpretation. Then you can make your locale DM tilt his head in confusion. On the contrary, you could make your players become confused with how a normally peaceful religion has a fanatic follower who took on one of these interpretations....
But now I'm going on a random tanget, so I'll stop there :D |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 19:35:52
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| Oh yeah, Ed discussed inbreeding and incest on August 27th of this year. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 20:49:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...
It'd be so easy to sleep with Tyr though. "I am a gorgeous, slender, blonde supermodel.....honest!!" |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 23:42:36
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*laughs*
Kaladorn, that was evil...and IŽll steal it for the next sassy rogue NPC IŽm working on, IŽll readily admit. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 00:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...
It'd be so easy to sleep with Tyr though. "I am a gorgeous, slender, blonde supermodel.....honest!!"
It worked on David Blunkett... |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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FR_Junkie
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 22:58:07
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another sourcebook (other than Book of Erotic Fantasy and Nymphology) to look in for content appropriate to Sharess and other mature content is Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Temptress. I've managed to use the clergy of Sharess in my game to good effect without them being the laughingstock of the game or sleazy, divine sex kittens.
at one point, I had them move in to the small town in Cormyr where the PCs were based out of... only this happened while the party was off dungeon-delving and fighting evil. the group consist of mostly lawful good (and a neutral good) characters, one of whom was apaladin of Tyr. when they return from their latest conquests, they find not only these hedonistic clergy setting up a shrine in their town, they also learned that the paladin's family was attacked by assassins (looking for him) and his daughter was the only survivor. a couple of the clerics of sharess took in the child and protected him from further attacks until family claimed him
everyone was like "oooooh, lucky boy" and the paladin was aghast that his son surrounded by harlots and hedonists. when he stormed the shrine demanding his son, he finds out that the boy is at the local inn being cared for by one cleric or another. they used the time until the paladin showed up to teach him some of the most basic principles of the faith, but nothing to worry about.
lesson learned: they may have a very different lifestyle, but followers of Sharess are still good people and can respect the beliefs of others without looking for converts at every opportunity thrown their way. the party accepts them and even the paladin begrudgingly admits, even though he doesn't like their way, that he wouldn't go out of his way to harrass them. |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 23:39:52
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| i realize my ignorance but openly except it in asking whats special about clerics of Sharess...like can u quickly describ the insidish joke that you guys seem to be discussing about Sharess and steamier FR? i mean im sure i could piece it together and assume what its all about and whatnot but its easier to just ask..so lets here it whats going on!?!? |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 00:53:46
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| Quite simply Sharess is the goddess of hedonism and sensual fulfilment, so you can imagine how devout worshippers (i.e. clerics) would act in pursuit of those goals |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 01:50:06
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| i can imagine indeed...thanks...i figured it was something like that but i wanted to check exactly what it was |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 01:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Quite simply Sharess is the goddess of hedonism and sensual fulfilment, so you can imagine how devout worshippers (i.e. clerics) would act in pursuit of those goals
And from some of the rituals that Ed has shared about her clergy, you really don't need to imagine how they worship. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 02:02:14
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| what kinda rituals? i know nothing of these rituals...and how can i join such a religion:P jk |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 02:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
what kinda rituals? i know nothing of these rituals...and how can i join such a religion:P jk
Dig through Ed's files in my sig. :) I managed to get a wedding ritual from Ed that is about Lliira's and Sharess's faiths. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 13:20:20
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| Anyone here using the book of carnal knowedge? also complete with spells, offspring rules and so on. Never played a priest/pristess of sharess, but what I hear from you guy's it sure sounds like fun! =P have only used them as npc's |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 20:23:18
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| I've not had a PC or used Sharess in any of my campaigns, although thats not because of any reason in particular. I would actually quiet like to play a Bard of Sharess, i think it might be kind of interesting espeically one who doesn't fall into the normal view of Sharess. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 07:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...
I know this is a joke, but in a more serious Realmslore vein, is there any real reason to assume that followers of those gods are meant to be abstinent?
I ask because in my campaign, even paladins of those gods are not expected to be celibate*. There is simply nothing in the published dogma of the gods that indicates that such should be the case.
In published Realmslore, we know that Aleena Paladinstar is a worshipper of Tyr and far from sexually abstinent. This does not appear to cause her any problems with the god or with her father**.
In my campaign, both Tyrrans and Tormtar tend to be disposed towards long-term relationships and place a premium on marriage vows. This is a personal choice, though, not a tenet of either church. No Tyrran or Tormtar is required to marry, but in some temples and orders, married clergy have a better chance of rising in the ranks.
In the case of Tyr, the establishment of a household and the raising of children is seen as an opportunity to pass down the precepts of justice to a new generation. A family should be like a microcosm of an ordered and just society, with a place for each one according to his personal strengths and with easily understandable and fair rules applied equally to all. As Tyr wishes to watch over his children as the firm, but fair, father who protects them from external and internal evil, so his followers should watch over their own families with a ready sword.
Tormtar believe that in giving one's loyalty and trust completely to one person, one is made greater. As a consequence, romantic love, of the courtly variety familiar from medieval legend in our world, is far from frowned upon. Sometimes this love leads to marriage, but far more often, it is unrequited, perhaps even unrevealed.
Some, but by no means all, dedicated paladins of both gods refuse marriage and romantic entanglements entirely, but that is not done out of any belief about the 'impurities' of such things. Rather, it represent the unspoken belief that the paladin will not live to see old age... or even the full flower of maturity. Many holy knights feel that it is irresponsible to accept the troth of one whom they know will be left bereft if their service should claim their lives. In the Realms, the figure of the brave knight who for reason of honour and duty refuses to wed the noble lady with whom he is helplessly in love is as celebrated in ballad as in our world.
*Chastity, however...
**Her father, moreover, who by the very existence of a daughter and a wife, albeit a deceased one, proves that celibacy is not a prerequisite for paladinhood. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 08:18:12
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| Well, xaviera has written quite a bit on Sharess, much of it derived from Ed's replies. Here's the link to the thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12492 |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 15:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...
I know this is a joke, but in a more serious Realmslore vein, is there any real reason to assume that followers of those gods are meant to be abstinent?
I ask because in my campaign, even paladins of those gods are not expected to be celibate*. There is simply nothing in the published dogma of the gods that indicates that such should be the case. (snip)
I don't think any of the deities of the Realms would be all that into celibacy. Celibacy means no new generations of followers, and gods are pretty into having followers. And celibacy is a pretty tough thing to do voluntarily -- I would think most deities would have better ways for followers to focus their energies, rather than concentrating on self-denial.
I'd say more on celibacy, but I don't want to get into discussing real-world religious issues. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 15:33:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
Not to mention Moradin's on bearded women, and Torm and Tyr's guide to abstinance...
I know this is a joke, but in a more serious Realmslore vein, is there any real reason to assume that followers of those gods are meant to be abstinent?
I ask because in my campaign, even paladins of those gods are not expected to be celibate*. There is simply nothing in the published dogma of the gods that indicates that such should be the case. (snip)
I don't think any of the deities of the Realms would be all that into celibacy. Celibacy means no new generations of followers, and gods are pretty into having followers. And celibacy is a pretty tough thing to do voluntarily -- I would think most deities would have better ways for followers to focus their energies, rather than concentrating on self-denial.
I'd say more on celibacy, but I don't want to get into discussing real-world religious issues.
This would actually make a fairly interesting question for Ed, after a slight re-wording of sorts. Hmmmm.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 17:35:34
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In the spirit of Wooly's response, religious abstinence is a real-world religious value, and generally does not exist in the canonical Realms.
Exceptions do exist, of course, and a church of Tyr in one city might be considerably stuffier than the church in another. Some orders and churches are notably more liberal about matrimony and/or romantic liaisons than others, making for a whole horde of jests to be slung the Realms over.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 03:34:09
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I haven't had time to go through the whole thread, but I have something related to Sharessan NPCs (and it's been FOREVER since I posted).
In Yartar, where my campaign is currently set in, the Sharessans don't have an official temple. They use the unofficial "The Wink and the Kiss" festhall, which is full of debauchery and fun times to be had (VERY Sharessan), and they also collaborate with the Sunites to run a shop that sells oils, crops, and other questionable things. There's a shrine in the window.
^^; I liked the idea of a sex shop in an FR town since I hadn't seen any before. Makes sense for them! |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 04:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabiesbunny
I haven't had time to go through the whole thread, but I have something related to Sharessan NPCs (and it's been FOREVER since I posted).
In Yartar, where my campaign is currently set in, the Sharessans don't have an official temple. They use the unofficial "The Wink and the Kiss" festhall, which is full of debauchery and fun times to be had (VERY Sharessan), and they also collaborate with the Sunites to run a shop that sells oils, crops, and other questionable things. There's a shrine in the window.
^^; I liked the idea of a sex shop in an FR town since I hadn't seen any before. Makes sense for them!
Heh, in Raven's Bluff, the Sharessans don't have an official temple either. They operate the merchant collective The House of Desires and one does not need a degree in innuendo to figure out what kind of things they sell there. There is also, one notes, a shrine incorporated into the mercantile establishment.
And that's canon, in a book penned by Ed, no less. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 11:50:03
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quote:
In the spirit of Wooly's response, religious abstinence is a real-world religious value, and generally does not exist in the canonical Realms.
I find this really bizarre. I generally understand that the realms is supposed to full of magic, monsters, and chicks in chainmail bikinis, but with the plethora of religions in the realms, it seems like some of them would be onboard with abstinence. It is such a common aspect in real world religions that it is odd not to find it represented in the Realms.
Consider paladins for instance, or holy warriors in general. There are distinct advantages to not having a wife and family if you are doing battle with Cyrists and Sharrans. You can stay focused on your job and don't have to worry about people threatening the folks you love.
I've also been led to believe that Realms deities are flawed. It is difficult for me to believe there aren't any deities out there that would be jealous of their followers' affections being spread about.
Now, nothing in the above arguments would rule out sex for fun and exercise, but I would expect some overlap between gods demanding singular devotion and ones telling you not to enjoy yourself too much. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 15:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
quote:
In the spirit of Wooly's response, religious abstinence is a real-world religious value, and generally does not exist in the canonical Realms.
I find this really bizarre. I generally understand that the realms is supposed to full of magic, monsters, and chicks in chainmail bikinis, but with the plethora of religions in the realms, it seems like some of them would be onboard with abstinence. It is such a common aspect in real world religions that it is odd not to find it represented in the Realms.
Chicks in chainmail bikinis do not exist in the Realms at large. You might find women so clad in a festhall or similar environ, but anyone who went into battle wearing only armored underwear would very quickly become a corpse in armored underwear. Chainmail bikinis are an odd artistic compromise between showing as much female skin as possible (to cater to the largely male fanbase) and still putting armor on them. I'm always in favor of the scantily-clad attractive female concept, but the way it's usually done in fantasy art is ridiculous, from a combat standpoint.
Why would a religion be onboard with not increasing its numbers? When there are gods that do encourage sex, why would any other deity encourage someone not to do something that's pretty much ingrained in them to do? Encouraging self-denial of a basic need is not the way to keep people happy -- they'll simply decide to follow some deity without such strict rules.
Most real world religions only encourage abstinence outside of marriage. Once you're married, most real world religions encourage some variation on "be fruitful and multiply."
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Consider paladins for instance, or holy warriors in general. There are distinct advantages to not having a wife and family if you are doing battle with Cyrists and Sharrans. You can stay focused on your job and don't have to worry about people threatening the folks you love.
That goes for almost anyone with enemies... And it still doesn't rule out recreational sex. So abstinence isn't in this equation.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I've also been led to believe that Realms deities are flawed. It is difficult for me to believe there aren't any deities out there that would be jealous of their followers' affections being spread about.
Now, nothing in the above arguments would rule out sex for fun and exercise, but I would expect some overlap between gods demanding singular devotion and ones telling you not to enjoy yourself too much.
There's a difference between singular devotion to a person and singular devotion to a deity. Religion and love are not mutually exclusive. Deities can take the long view, remember. You may be utterly devoted to a single person, but after 40 or 50 years, you're dead, and your soul isn't going to stick with that person -- it's going on to the afterlife, and that's a deity's playground. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 15:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would a religion be onboard with not increasing its numbers? When there are gods that do encourage sex, why would any other deity encourage someone not to do something that's pretty much ingrained in them to do? Encouraging self-denial of a basic need is not the way to keep people happy -- they'll simply decide to follow some deity without such strict rules.
You mean, the way that only real world religions which encourage free love can succeed?
Come now, people are not simplistic and any analysis of their motives that purports they are will be flawed.
Self-denial is a pretty basic tool for mystics. By giving up certain pleasures, people feel more holy and more in touch with their god. Doesn't matter whether that god is real or not, the effect is certainly real.
And it's not like sexual procreation is the only way to gain new worshippers. If a worshipper is sworn to celibacy, but recruits a new follower every ten years or so, that's probably a net gain for the deity. It's not as if people always follow the deities of their parents in any case.
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Most real world religions only encourage abstinence outside of marriage. Once you're married, most real world religions encourage some variation on "be fruitful and multiply."
For the lay worshipper, that is a likely pattern, yes.
For ordained priests or holy warriors, statistically a tiny segment of the deity's worshippers? It depends. I certainly don't believe that all Faerunian religions treat it the same and I wouldn't find it hard to believe that some orders of paladins were sworn to celibacy.
If a priest can convert followers to his faith at a faster rate than he can breed new ones, it makes sense for the god to encourage him to focus on the former. Time spent in domestic bliss is time not spent serving the god, at least if the god's portfolios don't relate to family.
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That goes for almost anyone with enemies... And it still doesn't rule out recreational sex. So abstinence isn't in this equation.
Shockingly, people have been known to attach emotional importance to relationships originally begun for recreational reasons. In the real world, plenty of religions found that the best way to discourage such things was to forbid the business alltogether.
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a difference between singular devotion to a person and singular devotion to a deity. Religion and love are not mutually exclusive. Deities can take the long view, remember. You may be utterly devoted to a single person, but after 40 or 50 years, you're dead, and your soul isn't going to stick with that person -- it's going on to the afterlife, and that's a deity's playground.
Time people spend in devotion to other people is time not spent on serving the deity, recruiting new followers and being out there as an example to others.
It makes perfect sense to me that there would be religious orders in the Realms with tenets of chastity and or celibacy, as long as it fit the god. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 17:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would a religion be onboard with not increasing its numbers? When there are gods that do encourage sex, why would any other deity encourage someone not to do something that's pretty much ingrained in them to do? Encouraging self-denial of a basic need is not the way to keep people happy -- they'll simply decide to follow some deity without such strict rules.
You mean, the way that only real world religions which encourage free love can succeed?
Aw, come on. Who said anything about free love? I said that a deity would not benefit from telling people to do something they're very much inclined to do. Free love did not enter into it, and tossing that out there is a deliberate misreading of what I said.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Come now, people are not simplistic and any analysis of their motives that purports they are will be flawed.
I have no idea where this statement is coming from.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Self-denial is a pretty basic tool for mystics. By giving up certain pleasures, people feel more holy and more in touch with their god. Doesn't matter whether that god is real or not, the effect is certainly real.
And yet other religions have considered sex to be a religious experience. Given a choice between a religion that says no sex at all is the way to holiness, and one that says sex is the way to holiness, which option are most people going to choose?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
And it's not like sexual procreation is the only way to gain new worshippers. If a worshipper is sworn to celibacy, but recruits a new follower every ten years or so, that's probably a net gain for the deity. It's not as if people always follow the deities of their parents in any case.
While this is true, kids often do follow the religion of their parents. Recruiting outsiders may be okay, but breeding them does a better job of ensuring future worshippers.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
For ordained priests or holy warriors, statistically a tiny segment of the deity's worshippers? It depends. I certainly don't believe that all Faerunian religions treat it the same and I wouldn't find it hard to believe that some orders of paladins were sworn to celibacy.
If some orders were sworn to that, I'd expect that prohibition to originate with ranking clergy, and not with the deity.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If a priest can convert followers to his faith at a faster rate than he can breed new ones, it makes sense for the god to encourage him to focus on the former. Time spent in domestic bliss is time not spent serving the god, at least if the god's portfolios don't relate to family.
Most people feel the need for family, and/or companionship, and/or sex. Encouraging them to forgo these things for the sake of following one deity is a good way to encourage them to worship a less-restrictive deity.
It's already established that deities of the Realms do not expect or demand 24/10 obeisance. It's established that people of the Realms worship multiple deities on a daily basis. If a deity is okay with that, they're certainly not going to sweat family time.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Shockingly, people have been known to attach emotional importance to relationships originally begun for recreational reasons. In the real world, plenty of religions found that the best way to discourage such things was to forbid the business alltogether.
Shockingly, a lot of real world religions that encourage total abstinence have found that some people -- even priests! -- can't stick to that kind of restriction.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Time people spend in devotion to other people is time not spent on serving the deity, recruiting new followers and being out there as an example to others.
And again, if Lathander doesn't mind me occasionally worshipping Tymora, I doubt he's going to have a problem with me thinking of my wife instead of him.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
It makes perfect sense to me that there would be religious orders in the Realms with tenets of chastity and or celibacy, as long as it fit the god.
If it fit the god, yes... But I can't think of a single deity in the Realms that it would fit. It simply does not mesh with what we know of the gods and of the Realms. |
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The Steamier Side of the Realms (PG-13)
