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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 02:19:11
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So my spot in the DM rotation is a ways off yet (and I'm a little bummed about that), but it gives me time to get some ideas going.
I've not run City of the Spider Queen yet. I was going to insert it into my last campaign, but in all honesty, a lot of other plot points ran over the point in time when I wanted to use it, as I wanted to keep it fairly close to when its suppose to occur.
So I'm thinking of starting my next campaign at 10th level (as much as I hate to start characters at higher level). I also have a thing about training between levels, and I have some ideas on that topic that I will post later.
But I wanted to know if there was anything that you guys have run across when running this that might be useful. Did anyone else start this adventure with 10th level characters instead of part of an existing campaign? Any side quests that you might have about it?
I was thinking of giving the players the option of either:
1. Starting out as underdark drow/pro Lolth
2. Starting out as underdark races/not Lolthites
3. Starting out as surface drow (Eilistraeans)
4. Starting out as surface races the way its more or less set up for as a default.
Just kind of rambling here so far, but throw some ideas at me.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 02:58:11
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A Dungeon module Spirials of Mazessine is set between Szith Morcane and the main drow city.
COSQ also suffers from bad layout issues |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 03:13:56
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| I haven't done more that a cursory evaluation of the maps, since I mainly just read the adventure and how it flows. I did notice that Hillsfar doesn't really match up to anything else written about it, but since its kind of the "extreem" option for outfiting a group, I wasn't too worried about it. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 15:34:32
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just as a side note, has anyone ever noticed that copies of City of the Spider Queen is sparce in your area? Is it out of print? Out of a dozen odd stores within 150 Km around where I live I have seen only one copy of it, a coupel of months after it was released...I'm on the verge of going on Ebay and getting it..
sory I can't help with ideas...isn't it linked to Kiaranslee (sp?)? Maybe there could be a Bloodstone link... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 16:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I haven't done more that a cursory evaluation of the maps, since I mainly just read the adventure and how it flows. I did notice that Hillsfar doesn't really match up to anything else written about it, but since its kind of the "extreem" option for outfiting a group, I wasn't too worried about it.
Also note that they didn't put Maerimydra where I intended it to be in CotSQ, although the placement is reasonable. Drawing on a my conversation with Ed, I intended it to be under the Moonsea (or nearly so), as you can guess from a close reading of DDGttU.
Basically the only real changes would be to make the connection via Haptooth Hill far less important and to make the infamous "sea drow" of "The Moonsea" part of this settlement (but in a radically different way than the rumors posited in "The Moonsea"). I had this weird idea at the time that the drow might have clear domes in the roof of their cavern popping up into the sea floor. So you could levitate up and stand in air on the floor of the Moonsea.
More on the aftermath of Maerimydra's implosion another day ...
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 27 Sep 2006 16:19:14 |
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Silvanus79
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 22:00:29
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| CoTSQ was actually the first Realms game I ran for 3rd Edition. I converted the old (very old!) Sword of the Dales Trilogy and beefed it up a bit, then ran the party through that and immediately into CoTSQ. It worked beautifully for the characters to have some connection with Randal Morn and Daggerdale (though the timing was a little difficult to manage...I used the excuse that the Zhents had held Daggerdale a little longer). It made them more interested in the region than normally possible, though that's a novel of a post in itself. As for the adventure itself, it took a lot of tweaking, and therein lies my advice for anyone wanting to run it. Take the time to make it work for you! It is a great adventure and worth every second you put into it, but only if you take the time to make it so. It does have some issues, but good preparation can make it work. Also, I had one of the drow from Szith Morcane escape and harrow the party the whole way...their reaction when they finally did her in was worth everything....just a few ideas. Good luck! |
Procrastinators unite! Tomorrow. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 00:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I haven't done more that a cursory evaluation of the maps, since I mainly just read the adventure and how it flows. I did notice that Hillsfar doesn't really match up to anything else written about it, but since its kind of the "extreem" option for outfiting a group, I wasn't too worried about it.
Also note that they didn't put Maerimydra where I intended it to be in CotSQ, although the placement is reasonable. Drawing on a my conversation with Ed, I intended it to be under the Moonsea (or nearly so), as you can guess from a close reading of DDGttU.
Basically the only real changes would be to make the connection via Haptooth Hill far less important and to make the infamous "sea drow" of "The Moonsea" part of this settlement (but in a radically different way than the rumors posited in "The Moonsea"). I had this weird idea at the time that the drow might have clear domes in the roof of their cavern popping up into the sea floor. So you could levitate up and stand in air on the floor of the Moonsea.
More on the aftermath of Maerimydra's implosion another day ...
--Eric
Thanks for those tidbits Eric, some of that may make it into my eventual campaign. I look forward to hearing about Maerimydra's future, as its one of the things that kind of intruigues me in the aftermath of this adventure. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 05:47:14
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Knight,
Here's a link to the still-standing CotSQ 3.5 conversion thread I started on the Boards that shall remain nameless, HERE
Lots of good tidbits there if you really want to push your players to the extreme.
For example: I recommend using Maur Giants with Class Levels intead of Fire Giants for gate Guards at M1, M10 and M13. Annihilators from that tome are most useful also.
:::::::::
Over the last 4 years (hey, this module is four years old this month. Go figure!) I’ve seen several threads about CotSQ on different message boards that all contained the phrase “Total Party Kill” or something similar. So while you might not be keen on allowing PCs to start play at mid levels, I highly recommend you be generous with them so far as character abilities, prestige classes and magical wealth are concerned.
I also recommend that you plan on planning. That is, make sure you set aside real time to plan for this adventure. As you no doubt know there are a lot divine and arcane spellcasting NPCs in this adventure. Planning on how to maximize these NPCs (much less run them properly) is a must.
That, and make sure you consider the PC’s abilities when structuring/reviewing encounters, and not just creature abilities. This module can kick the crap out of unprepared player characters, particularly if there are no divine spellcasters in the group.
If your playars manage to stay alive and even grow in power level (by means of magical treasure and slaying all foes they face), don’t worry! The creatures and encounters are very, very easy to upgrade in this module.
Finally, I ran a heavily modified version of CotSQ from Maerimydra forward, and also used Spiral of Manzessine as a preamble. I can say from personal experience that the rush your players will get from “winning” at this module is worth the blood and guts effort it will take to run it and play through it.
Good luck!
J. Grenemyer
PS: Probably the biggest change you’ll have to deal with if running CotSQ as a 3.5 game is the spell Haste. While there’s no doubt Hasted 3.0 NPC spell casters made this adventure a hellish, short-played experience, that is not -in my opinion- reason enough to modify the encounters to make up for Haste’s nerfing. I’m going to reverse the opinion I posted back in July of 2004 on the matter: Without 3.0 Haste, a 3.5 CotSQ campaign is reasonably balanced, but certainly not more dangerous. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 28 Sep 2006 05:56:04 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 08:44:17
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I dmed the module as well.
However I did not follow the entire Sith Morcane plot line. I changed the story in that way to give the players the following option:
after they breached the arcane school complex, they where confronted by the head wizard (don't have my books with me so I cannot give you his name, sry!) who offered them a deal - he would not send his demon after them to kill´them and devour their very soul but instead sent him into the final battle supporting the PCs against the high priestess, if they ever managed to get that far. The usual in-ploting the drows love so much. The PCs took the deal and left the wizards school alone. However, he never sent the demon for support, of course! 
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 28 Sep 2006 08:53:15 |
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Renvale999
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 18:28:24
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Hi there everybody, this is my first post lol.
Anyway I've run this module no less than 6 times(with 3 different groups and 6 different sets of characters). To be honest the only complaint I had was Myrmaedra, I didn't like the lay-out and the ONE group to finish it, actually went through and eliminated EVERY SINGLE BIOUVAC...sad for me, but cool for them. It was very tedious as a DM but alot of fun for them(so I didn't mind too much). Just a warning, don't allow your players to do this, because it becomes very, very boring for a DM and the players become far too powerful than they should be to fight the last battel against Ira. But it was fun none-the-less. |
Players always screw up your best laid plans, even when they're not trying too. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 08:59:40
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You can get it (in print) via Amazon too, mostly via re-sale offers. Should work though.
As for the adventure itself, I did a "revision" / "errata collection" (3E/3RE) for it some time ago, which you can reach via my "Homepage". |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 12:09:22
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I never got around to play this very cool module. As a fan of BGII, I've always wanted to do a longer Underdark adventure.
Sadly, the size is more than a little intimidating, so it always got pushed back.
If you want to put a spin on the adventure, I think surface drow would be most interesting. I should allow you to explore the drow as more than just cool, dark-skinned monsters.
Also, if you want put twists on the tail-end of the module, consider sneaking "The Harrowing", from Dungeon 84, into the tale. It should fit nicely. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 01:53:18
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One of the things I was toying with, is that if they don't take a drow party through this, I may throw in a pair of disguised viasages (from old Planescape/current Lord of Darkness) that appear to be drow that will warn them when they get read to decend into Szith Morcane if they aren't already talking about disguise/stealth. If they go charging in there, they could bring in half the city within a few rounds, and the giant freaking spider as well, so I think I might be merciful and give them a heads up if they aren't already thinking cautioiusly.
I can use the disguised visages later on and either plot advancement tools/temptations characters, as they will be creatures that still hate Kiaraunsalee from their sevice to Tenebrous, and they are hoping to return to the service of the Orcus dispite the fact that he dismissed them when he regained full demon prince status. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 06:32:23
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Gargantuan Spider! LOL! remember that one! it bit the party's cleric in half! the first kill I made when I ran the adventure! LOL!
But seriously, if you intend to run this module:
1. Forget about PC 'training' rules between levels: doing so will end up boring you to death as a DM, as the party will constantly wish to backtrack to the surface to 'level up' (this means hours of wasted DM preparation for you, as most of the game will be spent as an exercise of supply-line logistics and magical travel planning). Why would they backtrack all the time? you'll see: this is a deadly gauntlet, and once they go deep enough, there's that constant feeling of 'dread' hanging over the PCs... Have them level after they rest, at the very least. The players will thank you for it.
2. The NPC spellcasters of this adventure are all equipped with 'haste', which in 3.0, allowed them to cast twice a round. This made for tough encounters even when magelings were pitted against the PCs, but not so anymore. In fact, replace their haste spell for swift or immediate spells from Spell Compendium, if you want to roughly keep the same challenge. Arrowmind (1st) is not altogether a bad option for enemy drow magelings as they have a decent ranged attack... and drow sleep poison! and TRUE STRIKE!!! muhahahahah! 
3. Do NOT increase the toughness of the monsters! I did, and I ended up slowing the game down to a crawl (it was at least 9 game sessions by the time they came out of Szith Morcane... I was anticipating 3 or 4... not 9!!!) This game is designed to challenge the PCs, but not overly so at first. And that's fine! have them stretch their legs, spend their potions and wands, and vanquish foes freely. By the time they hit the deeper Underdark after Szith Morcane, the challenge swiftly rises and they must fetch for themselves, alone in the dark (literally).
4. Force them to bring a cleric and a wizard. One of each. Not some hybrid theurgian lookalike. They'll need a full caster of each kind to survive. You're wasting everyone's time if you let them in with a party of fighters. You'll need a nature-type as well, but do not penalize them for underground settings (i.e. there's a lot of plant life underground, but some boneheads are not aware of the legendary Salvatorian mushroom forests just yet!  )
5. With that said, make sure they bring a big tank meatshield. A dwarf in fullplate works best (especially considering stonecunning and darkvision!)
6. DO prepare for each game session. Read the monster entries if you think they'll face them.
7. Don't lead them by the nose. Only give hints if you think the game is suffering by their lack of ideas (stumped). Allow them to make plenty of bad calls. If you're too kind at first (like I was), they'll have a 'safety' misconsception for the rest of the adventure, and they'll show up in the deeper parts of the Underdark woefully unprepared.
8. Enforce starvation and thirst rules. Some water is foul down there. That will also make the ranger or druid shine a little more. Consider using the animal-less version of the ranger (as most animals down there will die quickly). If not, consider suggesting the player to take the Nature's Bond feat (CA) to bolster the ranger's companion (I strongly suggest dire bat, or some kind of riding lizard...)
That's it for now! |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 16:48:32
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| good suggestions pruple dragon knight! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 02:06:21
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This is some of the stuff that I have come up with in regards to the campaign regarding City of the Spider Queen. Any input into any one of these would be welcome.
1. Starting situation. I think I have settled into the idea of having the PCs start out without equipment one way or the other. They will have wandered into town without gear after having faced some kind of nasty thread that destroyed/damaged/expended all of their magical wares. Part of why I want to do this is that if the players are focused on just making up characters when they make them up, it will give them more time to focus on the core character and not his equipment.
The other thing that I was thinking is that its really easy when making up a character that is higher level to make a super specialized concept character, that might be really good in one situation, but doesn't have much in the way of useful things that might not contribute to the "concept" that a character that was played for 10 levels might. Even the best roleplayers fall into this trap from time to time. If the PCs are recruited by Randal Morn (or by whoever else, if they choose to go another route, as I mentioned above), then they can equip based on the ideas that Randal Morn gives them of what they are up against (Underdark drow, crypts, etc.) and they may not just get a +2 exploding mace of doom, but instead might get a few potions of invisibility or the like for surveilance.
2. Provisioning. I have an idea about introducing an old friend of Randal Morn's that has come to visit him now that he has his Dale back and is settled in, and he just happens to be in Daggerdale right now. This character is a mage and works for Aurora's, and is scouting out interest in setting up a competitive buisiness to the Thayan Enclaves, selling magic items in regions that the Thayans aren't welcome in. Most places want no part of it, either because they don't trust that much magic in the first place, or because they are worried about repercussions between the wizards working for Aurora and the Thayans.
He has come to Daggerdale looking to see if his old friend Randal Morn might be willing to put in a good word for his trading concern at the Dalelands Council, and is willing to hang around and sell the PCs provisions, and buy old magic, for a few tendays. He points out that a lot of Aurora's buisiness, unlike the Thayans, would be resale magic from adventurers, not brand new items, and he also says that any order will take a day to fill, as he has to teleport to the appropriate warehouse and then back again with their equipment.
3. Training. I know a lot of you don't like it, but I have always been adamant about it in my campaigns, and it helps to explain why a character doesn't go from 1st to 20th level in a very busy year of adventureing, and it also makes the PCs have to interact with the setting in a manner that isn't just about killing things. That having been said, in a timed situation like this one, its hard to come up with a good alternative, so what I came up with is an artifact, a circlet of elven make, that was stolen by the Jamdaathans and is found in the initial crypt (if the PCs go another route, I'll alter where its found and perhaps its origins as well). The item has all sorts of information in it about training, and can create a virtual timeframe of training in the character's mind. It also has spells, feats, and PrCs available within it as well.
The elves quit using it because over time it causes its users to become obsessed with becoming more powerful within a short amount of time, but this drawback won't come into play much in this campaign. There will also be a nasty Jamdaathan trap in it as well, but I won't throw that out until towards the end of the adventure, but from that point on, using it to train will be unlikely. I'll do a separate write up on this item one way or the other. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 03:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Gargantuan Spider! LOL! remember that one! it bit the party's cleric in half! the first kill I made when I ran the adventure! LOL!
But seriously, if you intend to run this module:
1. Forget about PC 'training' rules between levels: doing so will end up boring you to death as a DM, as the party will constantly wish to backtrack to the surface to 'level up' (this means hours of wasted DM preparation for you, as most of the game will be spent as an exercise of supply-line logistics and magical travel planning). Why would they backtrack all the time? you'll see: this is a deadly gauntlet, and once they go deep enough, there's that constant feeling of 'dread' hanging over the PCs... Have them level after they rest, at the very least. The players will thank you for it.
2. The NPC spellcasters of this adventure are all equipped with 'haste', which in 3.0, allowed them to cast twice a round. This made for tough encounters even when magelings were pitted against the PCs, but not so anymore. In fact, replace their haste spell for swift or immediate spells from Spell Compendium, if you want to roughly keep the same challenge. Arrowmind (1st) is not altogether a bad option for enemy drow magelings as they have a decent ranged attack... and drow sleep poison! and TRUE STRIKE!!! muhahahahah!
3. Do NOT increase the toughness of the monsters! I did, and I ended up slowing the game down to a crawl (it was at least 9 game sessions by the time they came out of Szith Morcane... I was anticipating 3 or 4... not 9!!!) This game is designed to challenge the PCs, but not overly so at first. And that's fine! have them stretch their legs, spend their potions and wands, and vanquish foes freely. By the time they hit the deeper Underdark after Szith Morcane, the challenge swiftly rises and they must fetch for themselves, alone in the dark (literally).
4. Force them to bring a cleric and a wizard. One of each. Not some hybrid theurgian lookalike. They'll need a full caster of each kind to survive. You're wasting everyone's time if you let them in with a party of fighters. You'll need a nature-type as well, but do not penalize them for underground settings (i.e. there's a lot of plant life underground, but some boneheads are not aware of the legendary Salvatorian mushroom forests just yet! )
5. With that said, make sure they bring a big tank meatshield. A dwarf in fullplate works best (especially considering stonecunning and darkvision!)
6. DO prepare for each game session. Read the monster entries if you think they'll face them.
7. Don't lead them by the nose. Only give hints if you think the game is suffering by their lack of ideas (stumped). Allow them to make plenty of bad calls. If you're too kind at first (like I was), they'll have a 'safety' misconsception for the rest of the adventure, and they'll show up in the deeper parts of the Underdark woefully unprepared.
8. Enforce starvation and thirst rules. Some water is foul down there. That will also make the ranger or druid shine a little more. Consider using the animal-less version of the ranger (as most animals down there will die quickly). If not, consider suggesting the player to take the Nature's Bond feat (CA) to bolster the ranger's companion (I strongly suggest dire bat, or some kind of riding lizard...)
That's it for now!
1. Not giving in on my training rules, but at the same time, I did have some ideas in my post just above this one on the subject. I'll post more on this idea later. It it works out though, training wouldn't be an issue.
2. Looking over the spell selections of various NPCs, I definately agree. There are some spells in the PH II that I was thinking of throwing into a few of the spell lists as well, as I like a lot of the swift action spells, especially for casters that are either supporting combat types or getting into combat themselves.
3. I know what you are saying about Szith Morcane. I was actually thinking of using this whole area as kind of a slow build up, with the PCs getting the idea something big is coming up, but at the same time, not throwing too much at them at once. More on this idea later.
4. While I wasn't going to force them to have a wizard or sorcerer, I was betting that they would one way or the other. I was going to emphaisize to them that they should have a full cleric, favored soul, or healer with them, and they should keep in mind they will need "duct tape" spells (i.e. restoration, raise dead, remove etc.)
5. I have one player that almost always wants to play either a fighter or a barbarian, so this shouldn't be an issue.
6. I understand and appreciate the advice on the "reading ahead" and doing the research on the encounters, as it is very sound advice.
When I showed up at a game session with a preprinted encounter tactical map that I made with Dundjinni, envelopes with individual enocounters in them, and prerolled initiative cards, and then appologized because I couldn't find a mini that looked exactly like the monster they were facing, my friend said . . . "this reminds me of that part in Back to the Future when Christopher Lloyd appologizes for the model not being to scale."
7. I am still trying just to give myself enough options so that if I need to give them a warning I can without it looking too much like I am saving their rear ends. So I want to introduce some NPCs and the like that COULD save them and are part of the story line, but only will do so if they really run into some bad luck, and not just some colossally bad decicions.
8. One of the ideas I had for an encounter in the Underdark is a nice little patch of mushrooms and lichens and a little stream tended by a completely insane dark elf druid of Ghaunadaur. He would be completely helpful and nice one moment, then start asking the PCs if they are going to draw straws to see which one gets sacrificed, because everyone else is invited to dinner.
That having been said, I am definately looking to throw some survival/terrain encounters into the travel.
Thanks for the suggestions PDK. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 09 Oct 2006 03:56:13 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 04:38:29
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| I was working on conversions, and came up with Chahir as a wilder (given that he was suppose to be a Jhaamdathan, I decided to follow the psionic theme and switch him over from Wilder). Let me know what you think. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 04:40:26
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Chahir CR10
Male Human Vampire Wilder 8
CE Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Init 8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +10, Spot +18
Languages Common, Chondathan
AC 22, touch 20, flat-footed 18
hp 78 (8HD); DR 10/magic and silver
Resist cold 10 and electricity 10
Fort +2 Ref +8 Will +9
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee slam +5 (1d4+1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; Grp +9
Special Atk blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate and energy drain
Wilder Powers Known: (ML 8, touch attack +5, ranged touch +8; 82 pp, 8 pp maximum expenditure)
1st level—Precognition, offensive; Precognition, defensive (1 pp minimum)
2nd level—Concealing Amorpha (3 pp minimum)
3rd level—Energy Bolt (5 pp minimum, DC 18)
4th level—Dimension Door, Psionic (7 pp minimum)
Abilities Str 14, Dex 18, Con -, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 22
SQ darkvision 60 ft., resistance cold 10 and electricity 10, damage reduction 10/magic and silver and 10/bludgeoning and magic, alternate form, fast healing, gaseous form, spider climb, undead traits, vampire weaknesses, turn resistance +4
Feats Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Combat Manifestation, Improved Toughness, Life Drain, Life Sense
Skills Concentration +17, Sense Motive +16, Spot +20, Hide +18, Move Silent +18, Listen +10, Bluff +13, Search +10
Possessions Dorje (Swarm of Crystals, ML 3, 50 charges), Bracers of Armor +2, 2 power stones of Share Pain, 1 power stone of Inflict Pain, 1 power stone Recall Agony, 1 power stone Mental Disruption, 1 power stone Psionic Levitation
Blood Drain (Ex): Chahir can suck blood from a living victim with his fangs by making a successful grapple check. If he pins the foe, he drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each successful attack, he gains 5 temporary hit points.
Children of the Night (Su): Chahir commands the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth a 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve his for up to 1 hour.
Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by Chahir's energy drain attack rises as a vampire spawn (see the Vampire Spawn entry in the Monster Manual) 1d4 days after burial. If he instead drains the victim's Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or fewer HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of Chahir and remains enslaved until his destruction. At any given time, Chahir may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice his own Hit Dice; any spawn he creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. Chahir may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Dominate (Su): Chahir can crush an opponent's will just by looking into its eyes. This ability is similar to a gaze attack, except that Chahir must take a standard action, and those merely looking at his are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 20) or fall instantly under his influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
Energy Drain (Su): Any living creature hit by Chahir's slam attack gains 2 negative levels. For each level bestowed, he gains 11 temporary hit points. Chahir can use his energy drain ability once per round.
Alternate Form (Su): Chahir can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. This ability is similar to a polymorph spell (caster level 12th), except that Chahir does not regain hit points for changing form and must choose from among the forms mentioned here. While in an alternate form, Chahir loses his natural slam attack and dominate ability, but he gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of his new form. He can remain in that form until he assumes another or until the next sunrise.
Fast Healing 5 (Ex): Chahir heals 5 points of damage each round so long as he has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points, Chahir automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. He must reach his coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (He can travel up to 9 miles in 2 hours.) Once at rest in his coffin, he is helpless. He rises to 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, Chahir can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell (caster level 5th), except that he can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Spider Climb (Ex): Chahir can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Undead Traits: Chahir is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. He is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage to his physical ability scores, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or death from massive damage. He cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if he is willing. Darkvision 60 ft.
Wild Surge (Su)
A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power.
A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.
Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.
Psychic Enervation (Ex) Pushing oneself by invoking a wild surge is dangerous. Immediately following each wild surge, a wilder may be overcome by the strain of her effort. The chance of suffering psychic enervation is equal to 5% per manifester level added with the wild surge.
A wilder who is overcome by psychic enervation is dazed until the end of her next turn and loses a number of power points equal to her wilder level.
Elude Touch (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a wilder’s intuition supersedes her intellect, alerting her to danger from touch attacks (including rays). She gains a bonus to Armor Class against all touch attacks equal to her Charisma bonus; however, her touch AC can never exceed her Armor Class against normal attacks.
Surging Euphoria (Ex) Starting at 4th level, when a wilder uses her wild surge ability, she gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to the intensity of her wild surge.
If a wilder is overcome by psychic enervation following her wild surge, she does not gain the morale bonus for this use of her wild surge ability.
At 12th level, the morale bonus on a wilder’s attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws increases to +2. At 20th level, the bonus increases to +3.
Volatile Mind (Ex) A wilder’s temperamental mind is hard to encompass with the discipline of telepathy. When any telepathy power is manifested on a wilder of 5th level or higher, the manifester of the power must pay 1 power point more than he otherwise would have spent.
The extra cost is not a natural part of that power’s cost. It does not augment the power; it is simply a wasted power point. The wilder’s volatile mind can force the manifester of the telepathy power to exceed the normal power point limit of 1 point per manifester level. If the extra cost raises the telepathy power’s cost to more points than the manifester has remaining in his reserve, the power simply fails, and the manifester exhausts the rest of his power points.
Powered Up Statistics: +3 on attack rolls from Precognition, Offensive (7 pp expenditure); +3 on armor class and +3 on all saving throws from Precognition, Defensive (7 pp expenditure); 20% chance for opponents to miss from concealment bonus provided by Concealing Amphora (3 pp expenditure); Share Pain power stone used on one of the vampire spawn to mitigate any hit point damage to Chahir. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 22:33:59
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After having successfully run this module (i.e. no TPK), I offer the following advice
-Unless you're nigh invulnerable, use stealth, ALWAYS
-You'll find that a Rogue feels less than useful. Granted, there are lots of traps, but a perponderance of the creeps are immune to sneak attack. I suggest a Ranger in substitute (with a level of rogue to get the trapfinding stuff).
-If they are not Darkvision enabled, they are going to need lightsources
-One of the map discrepencies- towards the end there are some rooms to which there are no doors.
-My party started to get very very apathetic 3/4 of the way through, I remember Maermydra as a particular low point. They wanted to give up sooooo bad. So pacing is important, even if you have to change the module to be upbeat.
-Part of what was morale-killing for them was that I described the claustrophobic darkness and deafening silence very well (if I do say so myself). I could really see the life draining out of them. It wasn't fun at the time, but they look back on it with fondness.
Other than that, I would just try to provide VERY solid motivation to see this mission through to the end. I think that motivation is the weakest element of this module. Randal Morn sends them to investigate, but they are presumed to take it on themselves to go all the way through the meat grinder. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 22:49:53
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That was something I had noticed, the lack of motivation issue. Once they deal with Szith Morcane, it would be very easy to say that, "hey, that should hold them for a while." The module says they may THINK they have won at this point, but they haven't, but then it doesn't really do a whole lot to move them into the rest of the adventure.
One of the things that I was thinking of doing was having the arcane guards being loyal to Solom Ned'razak, and as such, they hold back in combat until they see if the PCs have the upper hand. If they do, then the guards will turn on their allies and propose that they talk to Solom (it already mentions in the module that he would be amenable to an alliance, and that he would be thrilled to take over what is left of Szith Morcane).
My thought is that if they forge this alliance, Solom is willing to tell the PCs that do what he can to curb raids on the surface if they help him consolidate power, but in order to truly make the dales safe, they will need to take out the cult of Kiaraunsalee in Maermydra, and that he is willing to help and even provide some funding for the expedition, if they make sure that the city isn't a threat to his newfound domain.
While the PCs are working "for" Solom, they can get provisions from Szith Morcane, and they can go to him for new spells, magic items, etc. If they are foolish to trust him though, after they have Maermydra "sewed up" then he is going to arrange for an "accident" for the PCs, perhaps by summoned Yugoloths? |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 23:44:45
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I did something very similar to that in my game, but to very little effect. By the time they got to Solom, they were allready super paranoid, and he had neutralized 3/4 of their party before he was willing to talk. In the end, he gave them a tidbit of motivation (to which they groaned and said "you mean there' MORE?!?), and then became a recurring villain later in the game.
I also had an epic recurring villain manifest himself after the main fight with Irae, but that was pretty specific to my campaign, and I can't imagine it happening in anyone else's. I mean, what are the odds of a Dracolich's phylactery corrupting a PC's Gondsman, and claiming Irae's artifacts for his own after the fight? (Yes, it was VERY interesting, and no they haven't bested him yet). |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Exploit
Acolyte
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 21:18:55
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Did anyone else find Irae's uber-revenance spell that she is researching to be unbalanced? It seems much more powerful then any other 9th level spell and seems to outmatch even some of the epic necromantic spells. It is also totally unnecessary for the plot. Creating hordes of undead is easy just send a variety of spawn producing undead through the sieging goblinoids and presto you have an undead swarm capable of destroying the Dales. No need for an unbalanced spell. I liked the module very much outside of that point.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 08:52:58
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Well, without double-checking on what she exactly does, there is a neat low-key Epic Level Spell ("Army of Undeath" or something) which is probably somewhat similar. If I remember it correctly, not much detail is actually given on Irae's spell though. Given that she was able to summon the Undying Temple, she may have some aces up her sleeves with regard to this spell, e.g. utilizing some power of the temple not yet detailed.
BTW, I'd strongly recommend to use Libris Mortis and the Book of Vile Darkness for the Kiaransaleen lot. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 21:18:55
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| I just remembered a suggestion from those 'other' boards. If you want to toughen up the final encounter, Irae should dump the Yathrinshee Prc levels. On the whole, that class has been deemed sub-optimal. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 08:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I just remembered a suggestion from those 'other' boards. If you want to toughen up the final encounter, Irae should dump the Yathrinshee Prc levels. On the whole, that class has been deemed sub-optimal.
Must be some strange calculations over there. If I take her levels and create a decent Necromancer / Cleric / Mystic Theurge / Yathrinshee, while remaining canon-wise on the save side (given domain requirements for e.g. the True Necromancer), she will get a CL 15 for both arcane and divine spells, as well as a CL 18 for any necromancy spell. I wonder how this can be sub-optimal compared to her original CL ...
I will give a low-down of this version later this month over at the DnD-Gate. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 21:12:33
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| I just looked at my copy of CotSQ, and discovered that she doesn't even have any Yathrinshee levels. She's just Clr17/Hie3. Brain fart |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 21:21:33
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On the otherhand, to support my assertion that Yathrinshee is suboptimal, here is and excerpt from The Revised Necromancer Handbook scribed by the enigmatic K on those 'other' forums. This excerpt also discusses the True Necromancer as the two Prc's are quite similar and have similar defects.
quote:
Yathrinshee, the Dark Beauties of Bad Class Features
Like the True Necromancer, this is an arcane/divine combo PrC that is very cool and we'd totally play it if it wasn't completely crippled. Aside from the class requiring you to be a totally hot necromancer dark elf chick, it wants you to have five levels of Cleric of some god you don't care about and three levels of Wizard. Then, over the coarse of 10 levels you lose FOUR more caster levels from both your classes. Add in your level adjustment for being a drow, and at 20th level you are...wait for it...NINE levels behind in your cleric spells and ELEVEN levels behind in your Wizard casting. You can't even try to mitigate this with Ur-Priest cheese, since you need to follow this one god to get into this class.
Basically, this class has all the problems of a True Necromancer, but worse, and better flavor abilities. Their one great ability is the Curse of the Revanancer, which is awesome, as it lets you kill things with spells and they automatically become zombies under your control. Thats cool, and even very powerful under the right circumstances, but how are you even supposed to kill things with your spells at any point in your career?
You are not going to play a True Necromancer!
A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer.
Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad
1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 07 Dec 2006 21:25:28 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 08:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I just looked at my copy of CotSQ, and discovered that she doesn't even have any Yathrinshee levels. She's just Clr17/Hie3. Brain fart
Well, that has mainly to do with the fact that the Players' Guide to Faerûn was out only after City of the Spider Queen ...
It would probably a good idea not to post her original levels, as some readers may still want to test their skills against her.
As for that "insight article", people tend to forget that the Yathrinshee is an NPC class first and foremost and LA and the like do not harm her that much. As I said, my version of Irae will not have her full divine spellcasting prowess, but a CL 15 in both divine and arcane spells (i.e., compared to the original, is not able to cast 1 (+ 1 domain) 9th level spell per day, but 2 arcane AND divine spells of 8th level.) Having 15 CL in another spellcasting class IMHO easily makes up for not being able to cast 2 spells of 9th level in one spellcasting class, don't you think. And IMHO, the Necromancer stuff is quite good, but once she has the Death Ward ability, she can have half a dozen ghosts or keening spirits hanging about her without problem, while any other chap will have to make sure that he has a spell ongoing all the time to be safe from his "companions'" babble and glares. Min/Maxers will always find something better though, no doubt about that. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 08 Dec 2006 09:03:34 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 02:46:43
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I appreciate the effort that the fine poster put into analyzing some of the necromantic themed classes and PrCs, but in all honesty, I have to say that I agree with the article on WOTC's site that points out that sometimes you can make all of the arguements in the world in theory and on paper, but something "plays" completely different in the game. I played a Mystic Theurge in a game where we only had three players, and I have to say that it worked pretty well for the party and I had a lot of fun with the character . . . couldn't turn undead to save my life, but I didn't miss some of the higher level spells as much as I thought I would.
In any event, I'm likely to restat Irae similarly to what Zanan points out, although I would also say that I wouldn't have a problem with allowing a cleric with Undeath as a domain to take True Necromancer either. |
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City of the Spider Queen as a Campaign (Ideas)
