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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 22:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
...Lloth is a 1st ed lesser deity and 3e intermediate deity...
Firstly, you're right on mournblade. I just checked Demihuman Deities from 2e and Faiths and Pantheons for 3e and in both she's a intermediate deity, mea culpa.
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
...she is seeking power in another way, and so her people must suffer for now.
That was always my assumption, that she was trying to get power elsewhere, and that the only role that the Drow play is that, (a) they have to suffer, and (b) that if she fails at her metamorphosis she's screwed because she's lost the Drow. I always got the impression she was becoming something else to gains divine power from a new source, the only problem is, what source? As I understand it there are very few way except through worship for a deity to gain power these days. Whatever Lolth is up to it's a mystery to me.
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
My worry is the Drow are going to come back EVEN more powerful than before.
You know, I really don't see this as a threat. The only way the Drow can become truely dangerous is for them to unite, which is unlikely for a couple reasons, (a) it's against there nature, 9B) it's against Lolth's nature and teachings, and (c) even if Lolth changed her nature (which seems unlikely, but you never know), it will still be in opposition to everything most Drow Elves have been taught since birth. Even if they unite and start attacking say the surface, they are outnumbered and outgunned. If the surface kingdoms have proven anything lately, it's that no matter how much they hate each other they will team up to defeat a common foe. Could they possibly take over much of the Underdark? Maybe. You have to remember there are many species in the Underdark more powerful than the Drow, but aren't nearly as aggressive. Mind Flayers are a fairly good example. They live in small colonies of a few hundred fellow flayers; they don't care about conquest, just having enough slaves to serve then, their Elder Brain, and to experiment with. They aren't the most conquest minded species, but if you piss em' off a few hundred can be a nighmare to do battle with. Even united the Drow have a tough job conquoring the Underdark, and a much, much, much tougher one trying to take any part of the surface, I just don't see em' as overly threatening united, as compared to divided.
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Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 27 Apr 2003 22:58:32 |
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Eternal_Dreadlord
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 23:04:27
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Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
I don't see why Lolth couldn't, which could be incredibly dangerous. |
"Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed." |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 23:28:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eternal_Dreadlord:
Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
The change in his followings behavior wasn't really major change in his dogma, teachings, and beliefs. To best illustrate this, let's look at Bane's alignment, Lawful Evil. He was Lawful Evil in 2e, and he's Lawful Evil in 3e. Now, under Lawful Evil the general idea is that you are utterly self-serving within the confines of the establishment. It's doesn't exclude infighting or backstabbing, nor does it exclude it. Bane is the god fo tyrants. The weaker the tyrants who serve him, the more infighting. The more powerful, the less infighting. It wasn't a intrinsical change in dogma, since his alignment and portfolio makes room for unity and disunity, based on the power of the one in the leadership role. Lolth is an utterly Chaotic Evil deity. For her to switch to a belief system based on unity is a switch in alignment for her, and the Drow Elves. Chaotic Evil acts in direct opposition to unity, in any form. The Drow will destroy anyone who gets in there way, regardless of established laws or hierarchy. It's a much different idea. All Bane had to do to stabilize his chruch was increase the power of it's rulers, that way the could keep their followers in line. Lolth would have to change her mindset and that of all her followers, which is switch that no deity has done before..except Cyric, and he went insane so that doesn't even begin to compare. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 27 Apr 2003 23:28:48 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 03:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
quote:
Originally posted by Eternal_Dreadlord:
Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
The change in his followings behavior wasn't really major change in his dogma, teachings, and beliefs. To best illustrate this, let's look at Bane's alignment, Lawful Evil. He was Lawful Evil in 2e, and he's Lawful Evil in 3e. Now, under Lawful Evil the general idea is that you are utterly self-serving within the confines of the establishment. It's doesn't exclude infighting or backstabbing, nor does it exclude it. Bane is the god fo tyrants. The weaker the tyrants who serve him, the more infighting. The more powerful, the less infighting. It wasn't a intrinsical change in dogma, since his alignment and portfolio makes room for unity and disunity, based on the power of the one in the leadership role. Lolth is an utterly Chaotic Evil deity. For her to switch to a belief system based on unity is a switch in alignment for her, and the Drow Elves. Chaotic Evil acts in direct opposition to unity, in any form. The Drow will destroy anyone who gets in there way, regardless of established laws or hierarchy. It's a much different idea. All Bane had to do to stabilize his chruch was increase the power of it's rulers, that way the could keep their followers in line. Lolth would have to change her mindset and that of all her followers, which is switch that no deity has done before..except Cyric, and he went insane so that doesn't even begin to compare.
That is a very good point Edain. Bane's worshippers are the type to unite, where LLoth's are not. Like I said earlier, The drow really don't pose a threat to the surface world. But if Dark Elves WERE able to unite, they would be a force to recon with. But fortunatley they are Chaotic, and that is the greatest weapon aagainst them.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 17:50:05
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| The Drow don't have to unite, they just have to dominate their own area. If all drow settlements do that, they can rule the underdark in the same way that Greek city-states once controlled their domain. If Lolth percieves an organized threat against the whole race, she can order her followers to adhere to a truce for the duration of the conflict (like she ordered the Drow of Menzo to put aside their infighting for a time). Their inability to form stable alliances might be a weakness, but that weakness is also the source of their strengths. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 23:43:05
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
The Drow don't have to unite, they just have to dominate their own area. If all drow settlements do that, they can rule the underdark in the same way that Greek city-states once controlled their domain. If Lolth percieves an organized threat against the whole race, she can order her followers to adhere to a truce for the duration of the conflict (like she ordered the Drow of Menzo to put aside their infighting for a time). Their inability to form stable alliances might be a weakness, but that weakness is also the source of their strengths.
I'm not quite sure how that can be perceived as strength. It was because of their inability to make stable alliances with other NOBLE houses that caused Ched Nasad to fall. The drow cities are also spread far out,l and it gives alot of oppurtunity for Illithids, Duergar, and others to wreak havoc on them.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 00:56:17
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| mournblade is dead on. The downfall of Ched Nasad, and the near downfall of Menzoberranzan, were results of the inability of the Nobles to unite. It is mentioned all the Drow need to do is conquor the area around them. Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 04:13:11
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Greetings,
Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark.
I agree. To me that has always been the Drow's major weakness. As is always the case with such twisted societies, evil turns in upon itself. In fact, considering the chaotic nature of the Dark Elves it is a wonder why the fall of their cities and societies doesn't happen more often.
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 05:41:50
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| Interesting that you could find a way to inject part of Choas Theory into the Drow culture, Sage. But, your point about there actually existing order in chaos is a valid one. The order isn't really one that you can look, I think, so it's easily overlooked. It's rather ironic that evne Drow Elves, the self-proclaimed children of Choas, would fall to utter pieces after being exposed to true chaos. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 21:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Greetings,
Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark.
I agree. To me that has always been the Drow's major weakness. As is always the case with such twisted societies, evil turns in upon itself. In fact, considering the chaotic nature of the Dark Elves it is a wonder why the fall of their cities and societies doesn't happen more often.
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
Wow sage that is pretty good. I never thought to apply CHaos Theory to THIS matter AWESOME! I guess if a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing than it CAN affect the weather in CHed Nasad...
Nice point!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 22:19:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
I guess if a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing than it CAN affect the weather in Ched Nasad...
Wow, I wondered how long it would take someone to come up with that one. Anyways...
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Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 04:01:40
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Greetings,
Thanks mournblade94.
I have always seen the Drow as the personification of true Chaos itself. I think that is part of the attraction that fans have towards the Drow.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 16:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 21:15:03
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| Now, lowtech, you use the phrase "controlled chaos" which is in of itself a contradiction. You really cannot control choas, that's really an impossibility, that's why it's chaos. However, beyond that, Drow dominion has done anything but spread. More cities have fallen in the last millennia than have been built, and that was before Lolth went silent. But, whatever. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 22:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands...
I fail to see how this shows drow have become so powerful.
But like Sage said.. WHATEVER.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 14:36:20
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Greetings,
lowtech said -
quote:
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands...
I see.
So basically what you mean here is -  controlled chaos = power.
Perhaps.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ched Nasad
