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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:57:33
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I wonder how long before Chosen of Moradin tries to do the count for the Dwarves of Faerun? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 21:08:19
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Well If Mainland population is about 9 million, that means 1/3 of them are halflings?
I asked once for an official cenus of Eric IIRC and got a reply there never was one. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 21:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I wonder how long before Chosen of Moradin tries to do the count for the Dwarves of Faerun?
Give me one day and some mugs full of beer, friend.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 22:23:02
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I want to see the Dwarves, too. ;)
And yeah, some of the numbers PER REGION of the Elves does seem a little off.. Can't exactly say HOW off. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:47:08
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Hmm but i did notice one thing about the dwarves, that not many of them even the significant ones go beyond the 15th level. Could there be any explanation for that, i mean there are tones of uber elves and humans but i havent really noticed any uber dwarves (C'mon in the North the most powerful dwarf is what a lvl 17 fighter, Methrammer could kick his ass. . .)
Ok I'm exxagerating but the point is that for all their reputation as crazy kickass fighters,
their lvls dont do them much justice. . . |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:53:09
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High level spellcasters (wizards in particular) have a tendency to be much higher level than high level fighters, of ANY race. Since Dwarves have relatively very, very few Wizards, and Priests tend to have no reason to want to live longer than they should (their ultimate goal is to merge with their deities), it makes sense that there are few really high level Dwarves.
Same with Halflings, I'd say. (Who tend to be Rogues.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 03:37:39
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Yet look at all the uber fighters (primarily) the other races have had. . . Gareth Dragonsbane, Kane, Drizzt, Fflar, Cantoule, Entreri, Jarlaxle, Azoun IV, Elorflindar, Kaanyr Vhok, Ryld, Durnan, Mirt, Piergeiron, Texter, Laharin Goldbeard, Hykros Allumen, hanor Kicahavo, Madeiron Sunderstone, Helm Dwarf-Friend, Shurrupak, Tristan Kendrick, Timoshenko, Uthegenthal, Zaknafein, Tardeth Llanistaph . . . these are just a couple a remembered of the top of my head and pls dont get me started on all the clerics, just refer to Waterdeep:COS
to look at all of those cleric lvl 15 and above. And i didnt even mention those bladesingers and fighter/wizards yet (these seeming especially popular among the elves) |
Edited by - Aes Tryl on 10 Aug 2006 03:38:32 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:06:31
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None of the above Fighters I would consider to be particularly 'uber.' Only a handful of them are above 20th level.
And I really don't know enough about Dwarves to comment on them. Dwarves Deep may shed some light, but I don't have them. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:23:39
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| Well yeah epic fighters have traditionally been scarce in the realms but any character that reaches at least lvl 15 is pretty powerful. . . I do own Dwarves Deep and no it was really kinda brief and they gave very few stats, the Kingdom of Delzoun got what at most 8 paragraphs and it was more on Dwarven way of life and religion than anything else. The rest of it was mentioned but brief |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well If Mainland population is about 9 million, that means 1/3 of them are halflings?
I asked once for an official cenus of Eric IIRC and got a reply there never was one.
No wonder they are in almost every novel then |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:50:58
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| Well, in past editions, there was much more emphasis on culture and religion and such than ancient history. It wasn't towards the later days of TSR that they really started to delve into some of that stuff, which is probably why Dwarves Deep didn't say all that much. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 08:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Hmm but i did notice one thing about the dwarves, that not many of them even the significant ones go beyond the 15th level. Could there be any explanation for that, i mean there are tones of uber elves and humans but i havent really noticed any uber dwarves (C'mon in the North the most powerful dwarf is what a lvl 17 fighter, Methrammer could kick his ass. . .)
The older ed. had level limits for demi-humans. This was changed when it came to elven mages, but the rest had clear restrictions. Most of the dwarves mentioned are from the older products and therefore havelevels within these limits. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 08:52:43
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The level limits for Elven mages started to change in Evermeet, written by Ed Greenwood, which allowed Elven Mages to surpass 15th level (the normal limit) by acquiring more experience than was normally necessary.
The Elven High Mage was revamped in Cormanthyr (though they still had to gain extra XP to level above 15th), because the design method of latter 2E was relaxing demihumans' level restrictions more and more. Around that point is when you start to really get into the more realistic high level Elven Mage NPCs.
Dwarves Deep, as Jorkens pointed out, was written when level limits were still very much being followed, and there hasn't been a major update on the Dwarven cultures and nations since. I think it's about time for one, myself. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 08:57:12
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| One minor correction; Evermeet was not written by Greenwood, it was written by Anthony Pryor. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:06:43
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I must have been thinking of Dwarves Deep, sorry 'bout that one. :)
(Darn you, warnings! I am NOT flooding! Why am I persecuted because I type fast?!) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:12:28
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| Umm sorry but the lvl 17th dwarf i was refering to is actually is in Silver Marches, not Dwarves Deep, and is more commonly known as King Harbromm of Citadel Adbar. To be more accurate hes a lvl 10 fighter/lvl 7 dwarven defender. . . so its not really an old edition ( I'm not sure if Silver Marches is 3.0 or 3.5, but by 3.0 the lvl restrictions would have been lifted right?) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:23:54
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No - our point is that ANY NPC mentioned in 3.X that was mentioned in any previous edition would have developed under those level limit restrictions.
So, for example, if that NPC had been mentioned in ANY 2E book, he would have had a level limit of 15 for a long time (or a bit higher, but then he'd have to have gotten double, triple, quadruple, etc. XP to level).
That's one of those rules artifacts that, while not in play currently, still factors into NPCs of the current edition. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:36:24
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| ok i get it. . . so until the Dwarves get an update they will still operate under that sticky demi-humans rule eh? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:00:37
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Well, their levels will still reflect this.
Think of it like this:
Say, in 2E, an Elven High Mage was 3,000 years old. Due to previous level limits, let's say he only got to 24th level.
When he was converted to 3E, he'd still be - 24th level. Despite being 3,000 years old, because of the fact that under 2E, he only gained 24 levels because he had to gain so much more experience to level above 15th than, say, a human, who might have been 40th level after that long.
In 2E, a Dwarf could only go up to 15th level*. So all Dwarven NPCs you find in 3E, who have been around for awhile (before 3E) aren't really going to be much above 15th level, if at all.
* As a fighter, which was their highest class maximum. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 10:09:47 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:06:59
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| OHHH. . .ok thanks Dan, i understand now |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:07:29
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Cool, glad to help. :)
I do look forward to 3E updating some more of the epic-type demihumans, though. In my own campaign world, I tried to have at least a few iconic (Epic or near-epic) aspects of each race. The Overthane of the Dwarves, for example, is 25th level in my world, the Archon of the Pillar of Forges is 20th level; the High King of the Elves is 22nd level, the Grand Mage is 25th level. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 10:09:11 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:13:40
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| Thats the way it should be. . . unfortunately there isn't an overking for the dwarves in Faerun. . . If i recall correctly even the Great Rift is run by a something like a Council of Elders. Go Bruenor?? lol |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:21:25
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| Pft, Bruenor's low level. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:18:25
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I do agree that the level limits on the demi-human races in 1st/2nd Ed. have not been fully removed in 3rd Ed.
but I also I believe the greater reason why that there are no epic level dwarves, halflings and gnomes is what I said before in the other thread...the writers and designers for the Realms have and still do treat the non-elven races as second string players...especially in the last few years...it is pretty naïve to think the non-elves, especially the long lived ones, would not have epic heroes and leaders
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:25:01
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| Tis a sad combination of both, all the wee people in the realms suffer from certain prejudices eh, vertically challenged anyone? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 19:06:44
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Hail to the Dwarven list:
Chult
22.032 wild dwarves
Damara
79.315
Vaasa
43.632
The Dalelands
6.026
The Hordelands
1.335
Moonshae Isles
13.608
The Moonsea
87.264
The Savage Frontier
28.224
Silver Marches
218.160
The Sword Coast North
66.096
Waterdeep
134.784
Chessenta
169.344
Unther
127.915
The Great Rift
1.256.602
Halruaa
83.808
Thay
196.992
The Vilhon Reach
110.117
Chondath
19.829
Sespech
19.051
Turmish
152.410
Western Heartlands
16.416
All in all, a total of 2.852.960 well counted.
Sources: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition
Chosen of Moradin
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:14:37
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quote:
I do agree that the level limits on the demi-human races in 1st/2nd Ed. have not been fully removed in 3rd Ed.
They're gone. But we still see their effects - as well we should. It annoys me that some NPCs' levels were so drastically changed (like Manshoon).
quote:
but I also I believe the greater reason why that there are no epic level dwarves, halflings and gnomes is what I said before in the other thread...the writers and designers for the Realms have and still do treat the non-elven races as second string players...especially in the last few years...it is pretty na�ve to think the non-elves, especially the long lived ones, would not have epic heroes and leaders
Yes, in certain cases, for the reasons I stated previously. Granted, I think that the longer raced ones have more reason to have non-Wizard spellcasters, but also - Dwarves fight. A lot. The more you fight, the more likely you are to die before you reach Epic levels. Wizards don't have to do that. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Yes, in certain cases, for the reasons I stated previously. Granted, I think that the longer raced ones have more reason to have non-Wizard spellcasters, but also - Dwarves fight. A lot. The more you fight, the more likely you are to die before you reach Epic levels. Wizards don't have to do that.
I'm not sure I agree with that...the more you fight the better you get at fighting...and if you are foolish enough to choose a fight you can't win when your a high level, well you die...just like a wizard would die against a superior opponent. On the other hand I'm sure more low level wizards die than fighters...
the only inevitable that hurts a fighter (physical combatant) vs a spell caster is old age physically weakening you...thus why there should be more epic level warriors among the dwarves (and to a lesser extent elves and gnomes) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:29:54
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quote:
I'm not sure I agree with that...the more you fight the better you get at fighting...and if you are foolish enough to choose a fight you can't win when your a high level, well you die...just like a wizard would die against a superior opponent. On the other hand I'm sure more low level wizards die than fighters...
the only inevitable that hurts a fighter (physical combatant) vs a spell caster is old age physically weakening you...thus why there should be more epic level warriors among the dwarves (and to a lesser extent elves and gnomes
Many, many low level wizards die. And at the middling levels, the curve changes dramatically, because Wizards get neat little tricks like being able to teleport away from danger, summon minions to do their job for them, scry from afar on situations, etc. By sheer dint of the fact that Wizards tend to have MUCH higher Int's, and slightly higher Wis's on average than Fighters, they are MUCH less likely to be foolish. Statistically speaking, not a case-by-case situation.
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 20:31:54 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;)
Proves what exactly; stats are a sett of game rules and I cant see what they prove in this case. |
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Elven Population (Blackstaff/Final Gate Spoilers)
