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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  14:01:29  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Durak

The question would now be, Which computer games are canon? I am nearly 100% sure Baldurs gate was, maybe not the outcome, but the event itself.



The BG games can't be considered canon, largely because of their multiple endings -- thus they can't find any true support in official WotC Realmslore or Realms history.

Rich Baker, Ed Greenwood and Ed Bonny have all confirmed this as well.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 03 Aug 2006 14:05:32
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1740 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  14:10:55  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Durak

The question would now be, Which computer games are canon? I am nearly 100% sure Baldurs gate was, maybe not the outcome, but the event itself.



The BG games can't be considered canon, largely because of their multiple endings -- thus they can't find any true support in official WotC Realmslore or Realms history.

Rich Baker, Ed Greenwood and Ed Bonny have all confirmed this as well.



However, novels or game products that incorporate part of a computer game ARE canon, but only so far as the novel or game product discusses the events in the computer game. In other words, the Baldur's Gate novels are canon, references to such events in Power of Faerun are canon, but the games themselves are not.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  14:38:09  Show Profile  Visit FridayThe13th's Homepage Send FridayThe13th a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for clearing things up Eric. Sometimes WoTC can just be so inconsistant.

"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime

"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  15:20:47  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Durak

The question would now be, Which computer games are canon? I am nearly 100% sure Baldurs gate was, maybe not the outcome, but the event itself.



The BG games can't be considered canon, largely because of their multiple endings -- thus they can't find any true support in official WotC Realmslore or Realms history.

Rich Baker, Ed Greenwood and Ed Bonny have all confirmed this as well.



However, novels or game products that incorporate part of a computer game ARE canon, but only so far as the novel or game product discusses the events in the computer game. In other words, the Baldur's Gate novels are canon, references to such events in Power of Faerun are canon, but the games themselves are not.

--Eric

Aye. I've discussed this numerous times both here and at WotC -- and earlier in this scroll, in fact.

The BG novels are canon. WotC lists them as taking place in 1368 DR and 1369 DR. As well, the characters from the novels were statíd up in DRAGON #262 for 2e and there is the Bhaalspawn template for 3e in DRAGON #288. Ed wrote a sourcebook that complements the novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. In addition, Jim Butler answered this question in 2000 on the FR Mailing List. There's also some tidbits Lost Empires of Faerun.

And finally, the author of the last novel chimed in on the topic -

"<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?

<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Durak
Seeker

68 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  15:55:09  Show Profile  Visit Durak's Homepage Send Durak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the computers games arenít canon had me confused. But now the mist has been lifted from my eyes.

Basically I now understand how it works. Even if I feel The Sage has beaten me over the head with facts and information :) I remember most of all that, thatís why I got confused.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorry if distracting from the Original posters query.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2006 :  16:32:45  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cough,

Actually that was from my FR faq and I've said that repeatedly for over 5 or six years now but I gave Sage permission to add that to his Keep faq, whenever it sees the light of day. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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ode904
Learned Scribe

Finland
193 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  11:53:51  Show Profile  Click to see ode904's MSN Messenger address Send ode904 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  21:41:18  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ode904

Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms.



The NWN encounter with Obould (and Klauth, for that matter!) was absurd and a good example of why that campaign doesn't make for a good FR "canon".

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  21:59:06  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage  Send Archwizard an AOL message Send Archwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  22:05:40  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard

The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.



So what?

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  22:49:11  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard

The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.



It was an anthology actually, so it's stories would have been and some of them have been included in recent anthologies.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  23:04:20  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  23:07:09  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage  Send Archwizard an AOL message Send Archwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard

The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.



So what?


So what?

Just saying that some of the events in NWN could be canon, but obviously not the over the top ones such as the ones you've mentioned. That's what.

Kuje just indicated that a few stories from the NWN anthology have seen print elsewhere. Those tie ins are likely official.
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  23:26:37  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage  Send Archwizard an AOL message Send Archwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline.



Now that was something that could have been mentioned earlier. Your assumption seems to be right, Clayton Emery said on his site that the stories were to be clues to finding special items in the game but that was scrapped when the items could be found in stores. I guess that's partly why I mentioned the NWN anthology, in the hopes of learning more, and I have.

Thank you for mentioning the story. Not every day you hear of something for free that might be of interest.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2006 :  23:42:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're welcome.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2006 :  02:49:28  Show Profile  Visit FridayThe13th's Homepage Send FridayThe13th a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BG is canon, as there is a series of books dedicated to it.

NWM, umm, I don't think its canon. The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking and the exact dates of the events are unclear.

If there are a series of NWN novels, then I will count it, but right now, it is not canon.

"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime

"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2006 :  04:43:40  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...



I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).

No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Aug 2006 04:44:45
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2006 :  12:09:59  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle. But I didn't really like the HotU-campaign, so I've only played that long and could be far more wrong than a drunk Mel Gibson...

The first part is a rip-off of Steven Schend's 2nd-edition module Stardock, which felt a bit unoriginal to me.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2006 :  01:32:28  Show Profile  Visit FridayThe13th's Homepage Send FridayThe13th a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...



I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).

No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign.



Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.

Also, Meph has A LOT of enemies in hell. Meph's complete abscence in Cania would spark a huge land grab in Hell. All the archdevils, especially Baalzebul(who has always wanted Cania) would be sending hordes of devils into Cania trying to grab as much land as possible, which will spark M's allies such as Dispater to send forces into Cania as well to prevent Baalzebul's faction from gaining power. Hell's ordered hierarchy would be thrown into turmoil, there will be all out war between the archdevils, Asmodeus would be desparatly trying to keep the peace by calling all of the Blood War forces home to keep the peace.

Then the demons and celestials would see a loophole in hell and try to gain something of their own. And, the prescence of such as powerful planar being on Toril would scare the crap out of the Gods, who would be panicking because Meph got past all their wards and defenses. And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls. You can bet that Khelben and the other NPC's of Waterdeep would be fighting for their lives. You can also be assured that El and the other meddling Uber-NPC's of Toril will stick their noses in this situation.

And you can just imagine the chaos in the Underdark when the already in trouble drow hear of a huge archdevil wandering around slaughtering people and they can't even call on Lolth to help them.

The effects of such a appearance would be catastrophic to not only Toril, but the planes themselves.

"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime

"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society

Edited by - FridayThe13th on 15 Aug 2006 01:33:08
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2006 :  03:12:22  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase

I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle.



Nope, he survives--it's just that during the final battle he is incapacitated. Also, the epilogue I got mentioned him putting up a portrait of my character in the Yawning Portal Inn (that made my day).

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2006 :  03:13:55  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.



Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things).

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2006 :  18:49:13  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.



Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things).


Considering that there's no visual effects in NWN that can simulate molten lava, it'd be hard for that to happen in the game.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2006 :  19:02:29  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th

Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.



just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...

a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2006 :  03:02:08  Show Profile  Visit FridayThe13th's Homepage Send FridayThe13th a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th

Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.



just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...

a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better



Well, unless you are a supporter of the theory that he is the avatar of an overgod, I don't think he has the power to stop Meph from making his layer.

"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime

"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2444 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2006 :  23:59:49  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, A Guide to Hell established that Asmodeus was/is an elder dragon, one of three that created the Great Wheel, and was then severely beat up by the other two when he tried to take over. The other two were Io (after whom the Blood Isles are named), and a feathered serpent I can't remember. That makes Asmodeus pretty much a supreme being in the Hells (and less so outside them). But I haven't read A Guide to Hell in a long time, so I'll stop here.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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