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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:35:55
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Sooner or later I'll start using world works stuff for my games...
Halidan, I'm very interested in seeing your game set-up |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:57:51
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Until last weekend I and the rest of my group had never felt any need for miniatures. Then Mace talked about them in his campaign thread in the adventuring forum, and I decided to run a trial adventure with them. I have to say that we wish we'd been doing it all the time. 
There's three big advantahes as I see it. Firstly, it's muc easier to keep track of what's happening. When it's all kept in the DMs and players heads, players will be asking if they can do something, possibly arguing, and generally the game will run slower than when they can see what's going on. Fights now go much quicker and more smoothly than they used to.
Second, I prefer the look of a table with a battlegrid and a selection of terrain features and minis to one covered in half-drunk cups, empty sweet packets, and discarded dice.
Third, there's the visual cues which players get. They can see terrain and use it more readily, and the effect of a wyvern looming over their character is greater when there's models involved than when it's only a description.
There are some disadvantages too. The most significant is preparation time. A scene that can be described in a few seconds takes much more time to set up on a grid. Even if you've prepared beforehand, anyone using random encounters will find them time-consuming, as well as requiring more minis to be available.
Another disadvantage is that it will be more expensive. Minis aren't cheap, and some of the other things you'll want also cost money. Also, if you buy and paint your own minis then that takes time that you could spend doing other things. Since I and the rest of the players already own a lot, which we've used for wargaming, that isn't such a problem for us. I suspect also that in the future I'll be less inclined to use unusual monsters that I don't have a mini for, which would be unfortunate. As others have suggested, there are counter sheets and similar available, so that might help reduce the expense. An alternative is some of the light cardboard stand-up figures which you can buy, and which I've also seen in one or two places on the internet available free.
One last disadvantage that might be the case is that it makes D&D more of a tactical game and less about imagination. Personally I don't find that a problem when you're using them only for fights, but one of the other players thought that could happen.
Overall I have to say that we thought the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages. Whether that will stay true is another question. But certainly we'll carry on using them until we find them a problem. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:10:18
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Glad I could be of help, Bluenose :)
As for the mini cost...I figured since my hands are all thumbs I will not go with painting minis myself, I buy the D&D minis, compared to mini-,paint-, whatnot-cost they are rather cheap and ready to use... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Mazrim, check out this one, I'm working with it and its cheap(pricewise) and portable:
http://www.steelsqwire.com/prod01.htm
Hello-
Thanks for that link! Looks like some good stuff - and it is pretty affordable! Nice to see they will be at GenCon - I'll have to stop by and check it out!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Mariuss
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:51:55
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I used the battle grid for a long time then one day I seen a new game called heroscape on clearance at the local Wallmart for $5.00
It had something like 30 miniatures (even a dragon) and the best battle hex pieces I have ever seen.(only about 1/2 of the miniatures are dndish) So I bought about 3 boxes of them and now can build a 3D battle ground with height and terran features like water and ruined buildings.You can find lots on ebay for a decent price.After I got the hex pieces I never used the battle grid again.
It has 100% increased the battles in my game expecially in battles with lots of creatures.I have had huge fights in self made cavern with lots of ledges for archers and the like that help the players to plan good strats and speed up the game.
Then I started buying D&D minis from the new miniature sets from wizards this is pretty expensive if you buy the packs to get rares but on ebay you can buy huge lots of commons for cheap if you just want minis and dont care about getting the really cool ones.
The minis help allot as a DM in just giving me ideas on monsters I may not know about or of heard of and they are based on all the monster manuals and diffrent D&D sources.They also look really cool and help players to visualize what they are fighting.
So in my opinion and my players they are the best thing to happen to D&D since 3.5
Hope this info helps
Mariuss |
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Mariuss
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:53:19
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| The only downside to them is my wife teases me for buying and playing with toys : ( |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 20:04:39
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I use the D&D prepainted plastic miniatures and a wet-erase battlemat. The mat probably cost ~$25 and is about the size of my dining room table. With just the mat and some kind of counters (stones, dice, cut-outs, etc.) you can introduce the tactical elements of combat, drawing in terrain, walls, etc. on the fly with wet-erase markers. There is sometimes the issue of running up against the edge of the mat, in which case we have adopted "looping" to the opposite end of the mat to represent longer distances.
Using the pre-painted miniatures has added an extra dimension of "coolness" to many encounters. Yes I have spent a fair bit of cash collecting the minis, but that has been fun too. However, if you start out with the baseline that a mixture of counters and whatever miniatures you have are good enough, then you can get started and add whatever miniatures you'd like at costs you decide are acceptable as time goes on. There is a large variety now in the D&D prepainted minis line and a large non-random secondary market (in gaming stores, online stores, ebay stores). Many miniatures stores on ebay don't even run auctions, they just list miniatures with a "buy it now" feature and the stated price. Many commons are in the $0.25 to $0.50 range (recent sets) or $0.75-$4.00 range for older sets. Uncommons are usually $0.50 to $2.00 for newer sets and ~$2.00-$8.00 for older sets. There are many uncommon "large" figures and uncommon "huge" figures too (usually $2.00-$8.00 for the huges). The rares from recent sets are usually in the $4.00-$8.00 range, but can go much higher for hard-to-get figures or those from older sets. With all single miniatures purchases (except those from a gaming store) you need to watch out for high shipping charges.
As a strategy for someone who wanted to get started using miniatures, I would check out people who are offering sets of commons and uncommons from the recent expansions. You would get good assortments of figures (monsters, humanoids, etc. tiny, small, medium, and large) for probably $10-$20 total. Then you could pick up a few individual figures for another $20-30 to round out your collection. You can get uncommon huges from the most recent set for only a few dollars each right now. You could also fill out your collection by buying the randomized packages: The cheapest price point is by the case (~$70-$100 for 12 packages of the non-huge sets, 6 packages of the huge sets), or individually (by the box) from Amazon. Or to literally get started (including a basic version of 3.5 combat rules), there is the "Basic Game" box that comes with a non-random set of nice PC minis, small and medium monsters, and a medium or large dragon (depending on which version of the Basic Game you're getting). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 20:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
I'm a different case than some of the folks here - I've been DMing since 1976 (white box D&D) and came to the RPG hobby out of traditional wargaming (mostly medievals and WWII). I've always felt that miniatures were essential to the game. By miniatures, I don't just mean PC and monster figures, but trees, hills, ruins, statues, creeks, and just about anything else I can either make or find to use. I've been told that I set a very pretty table for my games.
I feel the miniatures are esential in order to help the players visualize the terrain and setting of the game. Rather than distract from the role-playing, the minis help people get into character and allows them to use terrain and objects to their advantage in both combat and non-combat situations.
I don't have any pictures of one of my gaming set-ups handy at this point, but I"ll llok for one later this afternoon so I can show folks what one of my typically set ups looks like.
I barely have enough room for all my minis as it is.
I have no clue where I would even put terrain... |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 20:58:17
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| wildmage, the problem with some minis is they are impossibly hard to get...i.e. Champion of Eilistraee, which would be perfect for one player... but I refuse to pay $50 for it |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 21:50:17
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Mace,
What about the Drow Sergeant, Drow Fighter, or Lolth's Sting- sword carrying drow that either are or could pass as female. And they're all common or uncommon. |
Edited by - wildmage on 11 Jul 2006 21:57:37 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 21:58:03
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| she uses Lolth's sting atm, but I'm having a mini painted for her birthday :) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 22:33:53
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That's a good point- I think in a lot of cases players and DMs prefer to use their own painted minis for PCs, but use pre-painted minis (or unpainted minis, dice, counters, etc.) for monsters. The monsters come and go pretty regularly and so their relative "prettyness" is nice but not crucial. The players probably appreciate having good looking minis for their PCs though. As it stands all my players are happy with the PC minis they've chosen from my collection of pre-painted D&D minis (some of which look really cool).
Examples (PC: mini used)
1/2 orc fighter (dual wielding): 1/2 orc fighter (Harbinger uncommon)
Gnome wizard: Nebbin gnome illusionist (Harbinger uncommon)
Human Druid: Ember, Human Monk (Harbinger uncommon) NOTE: She'll likely switch to Nentyar Hunter (Underdark, uncommon) or Warden of the Wood (War of the Dragon Queen, uncommon)
Human Fighter/Rogue (emulating a ronin, originally from Kara-Tur): Dragon Samurai (Aberrations rare)
Human Cleric: Cleric of Lathander (Archfiends uncommon)
Note that there are lots of uncommons that look good and make great PC minis. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I barely have enough room for all my minis as it is.
I have no clue where I would even put terrain...
There is a reason that my sellers handle on e-Bay is Jay's Garage. We have a 2.5 car garage - I get 1.5 cars worth of it for my gaming terrain.
That holds most of my scenery and minis  but I still have enough to fill a large (six drawer) Craftsman rolling shop-style tool chest in the upstairs closet and a few misc boxes around the house.
It's a sickness, but I enjoy it. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:37:09
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Holy crap. That's a lot of minis.
I have a few minis which I buy just to look at. My one attempt at painting one ended in misery. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mariuss
Acolyte
10 Posts |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 07:40:03
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I definitely use minis and battlemats. I used to buy a lot of metal figures, often going out and getting specific monsters as I needed them for specific games.
However, ever since the WotC plastic minis came out, I just buy a case of those each time and now have a wide selection of most monsters or suitable substitutes.
I love the minis, and I often plan adventures just by going through the boxes of minis and pulling out monsters that look cool or that can trigger ideas for a session as I physically just sort through them. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 07:48:26
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Oh, as for Battlemats, I have tried a lot of different things. My favorite and usual method these days is to just use plain paper with rooms printed on it. I often print out the maps from Skeleton Key Games. But I also create my own, just by cutting out an appropriate shaped room or hallway from a page of 1-inch graph paper.
If you have a jpeg or gif map of a dungeon, you can cut and paste into a word document, and then resize the picture to the 1 inch = 5 feet scale, and then print out each room. Then when you are running a session, you don't have to put that room down on the table until the party opens the appropriate door. That way they can't see what is behind the door or coming up next.
You can find a lot of maps on-line, and they are almost always reusable, I use the same couple of Inns for any encounter in an inn. Or just cut out rooms however you like from blank 1" graph paper and custom fit each room to your own sensibilities. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:39:31
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I would SO LOVE to use miniatures at my gaming table, but it's just not feasible.
Even if I just used a battle grid and simple miniatures (no trees, statues, or other objects), the experience would be lack-luster unless I have a dozen orc minis, a dozen kobold minis, a dozen zombie minis, a dozen human guards, every single dragon color and size... I'd basically need all the miniatures and a lot of duplicates to reflect the diversity of the gaming table. What happens when the PCs encounter a squad of twelve orcs, including a shaman and some dire wolves. I'd need one mini for each creature. And do I want to sub in another mini or some other ridiculous object to stand in for a mini I don't have? "Well, I don't have the orc shaman mini, so I'll use this Monopoly piece to represent the shaman." No way.
I'd love to use minis, but at this point, it would be too expensive for me to get enough to make them valid at the table.
Interestingly enough, I bought my players minis that I thought represent their PCs well (the lizardfolk, the graycloak ranger, the eye of Gruumsh, and the daring rogue). They sit proudly amidst dice, pencils, Combos, and character sheets. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
And do I want to sub in another mini or some other ridiculous object to stand in for a mini I don't have? "Well, I don't have the orc shaman mini, so I'll use this Monopoly piece to represent the shaman." No way.
Hello-
Quite understandible. However - as others have mentioned - some of the commons - including some of the very orc, skeletons, etc that you mention - are probably available, in quantity for under fifty cents apiece. (*check some of the mail-order places - including Paizo, or even ebay.*)
In current gaming-related magazines I have seen a great 2-page ad for the minis.
Page one: A grid battlemat (or similar) is shown - with probably 5 PC-type minis arrayd about and obviously attacking - a Pineapple. Yup - a real fruit - on the battlemat.
Flip the magazine page -
Page two - same mat, same PCs in the same positions - with the gargantuan black dragon mini that is coming out.
Whats their / my point?
Its Visually an impact on the scene that is unfolding.
Anyway - another thing you could consider is - keeping to the dice, coins, etc - and save some special mini - for an end battle - especially if the group is fighting only one of something. It would make it far more impressive - especially in your case - to spitch from a soda-can - to say - an actual Giant mini or some such.
Just a thought. In reality - one of the best uses for minis - you are already getting - a clear-cut delineation of where everyone - friend and foe - really is.
Dhomal
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I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 20:23:11
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| I've used minis the last couple of years. I'm fond of large battles with lots of opponents, cohorts and other obstacles, so having a board speeds up things considerably. It has been a great addition to the game actually, although I did not expect it when we started using them. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 04:19:24
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I've been using minis for 6 years now... I'll never go back.
I now have four battlemats, and I lost count on the minis... I pretty much have a mini for any type of PC or monster out there... :P |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 05:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I've been using minis for 6 years now... I'll never go back.
I now have four battlemats, and I lost count on the minis... I pretty much have a mini for any type of PC or monster out there... :P
I harbor a deep jealousy concerning you and your minis.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 07:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I pretty much have a mini for any type of PC or monster out there... :P
Does that include the many varieties of Giant Space Hamster? Here's the list, just in case you need it:
- Subterranean Giant Space Hamster
- Sabre-toothed Giant Space Hamster
- Rather Wild Giant Space Hamster
- Invisible Giant Space Hamster
- Sylvan or Jungle Giant Space Hamster
- Miniature Giant Space Hamster
- Armor Plated Giant Space Hamster
- Yellow Musk Giant Space Hamster
- Ethereal Giant Space Hamster
- Carnivorous Flying Giant Space Hamster
- Two-Headed Lernean Bombadier Giant Space Hamster
- Fire-Breathing Phase Doppelganger Giant Space Hamster
- Great Horned Giant Space Hamster
- Abominable Giant Space Hamster
- Tyrannohamsterus Rex
(Those guys at TSR must have had a blast creating the Spelljammer monsters!  )
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 09:35:22
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Either that or one of them was having a bad trip written down... |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 11:36:37
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Yeah, I use battlemaps and minis now.
I wasn't sure when we first switched over, but I can't imagine not using them now. It just saves so much time not having to explain everything two or three times to different players. Combat just runs much smoother when everyone has a visual in my experience.
But, that's just my humble opinion.
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"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 12:57:02
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I guess any GM who starts with minis in combat doesn't wanna revert back to ye olden ways...
it just makes thing so much easier, which means less headache and more fun for the GM and players |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 14:12:58
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Most Learned Sages,
I have been around D & D since the old red basic box set... However, I am new at DM'ing games. I have found that battle grid and minis help me track the combats and where the players are. It forces them to place their character's location in relation to the action happening... Now, here is a trick I use to help the players "picture" the scene; Instead of a battle grid or map, I purchased from an office supply store an easel pad. This easel pad has a light blue grid of 1 inch squares on it and many sheets that you can easily tear off. When the players enter a new location, whether a room or a trail in the woods, I quickly use markers of different colors to draw the area dimensions as far as they can see. I then place my miniatures (their Foes) on the rough outline I have drawn in relation to them. It seems to enhance the game play and helps me keep track of things. I can also draw or write notes on it where needed. This seems to work well for me and my group. |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 14:20:33
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Wooly,
Tyrannohamsterus Rex?!?!?!.... I have to admit, I laughed... |
ShadowJack |
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thom
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 17:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I guess any GM who starts with minis in combat doesn't wanna revert back to ye olden ways...
it just makes thing so much easier, which means less headache and more fun for the GM and players
Yep...been playing with a grid and miniatures since 1976. I can't even begin to imagine how I'd run a game without em! I use them both for roleplaying in taverns/inns (for the inevitable fights) and for any kind of combat or potential combat) situation. It totally eliminates any arguments about who's hit by spell effects, sneak attacks etc! |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:51:52
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| Depends on the situation, generally the minis are out to describe basic location and distance. In really nasty combats we will lay everything out in 3D. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Topic |
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Do you use miniatures and a battle grid?
