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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 00:24:39
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One of my players is a priest of Horus-Re, sent out beyond the borders of Mulhorand to spread the faith of Horus-Re to greater Faerūn. The party has been based out of Suzail, Cormyr for some time.
Recently, the players traced the activities of a new and aggressive thieves guild to their headquarters in a warehouse near the docks. After killing their boss and destroying the guild, the priest wants to convert the warehouse into a temple to Horus-Re.
This brings up a whole host of interesting issues for me:
1) Assuming no more legitimate owner can be found, how would he take title to the building? Can he claim right of conquest? Or does abandonned property escheat to the crown? Or could he pay some fees to quiet title in his name? Would it just be easier to buy some other building outright rather than deal with that kind of red tape?
2) Would the crown be friendly, neutral or opposed to the cleric of a new faith opening a new temple in Suzail?
3) Would Lathanderites be friendly, neutral or opposed to a cleric of Horus-Re opening a new temple? (They could view Horus-Re as a "fellow" sun god or as a "rival" sun god, or maybe be indifferent?)
4) Assuming he can jump those hurdles (not sure if he can) what kind of fees, building permits, licenses, inspections, applications, and taxes (if any) would the government (and any other construction guilds, or organizations) exact from him in order to open his temple?
5) Lastly, does anyone know if temples are exempt from property taxes in Cormyr?
If you have any thoughts I am very eager to hear them. 
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 00:36:26
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The problem is that Horus-Re is a god of a pantheon different from The Faerunian Human Pantheon. As such in Faith and Pantheon, it states that if a church of a different pantheon was expand pass the cult stage, the home pantheon would try to eliminate the church. Good would try to diplomatically get the church to leave, but it doesn't leave they would attack. Evil would try to destory it. Neutral would be between the two.
It doesn't seem likely that a Temple to Horus-re can be created in Faerun Pantheon territory. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 01:12:31
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1) Tax auction, provided by goverment would be a way to achieve legal title (If community charges land tax). It depends on the Crown to a great extent as to if underlines can be bribed to change paper work. A right of conquest can not be acepted as a valid claim, the local law would need to be satisfied (you can not have an adventure killing the Inn Keeper and claiming right of ownership, unless in a very chaotic society)..
2) It depends on the Crown, while many dieties are believed in, some communities the wrong faith is surpressed. Again it depends. If the Crown is aligned with the new faith it would tend to be premitted IMO. Details of course of differences and general population should be a factor as well.
3) No opinion
4) The Crown sets its fees as needed for the realm defense, I do see major regulation on building once one owns the land. There of course will be cost of material and labor. Perhaps the need of purchase of a permit.
5) Tax exempt status could be achieved by a pledge to serve the Crown or at least the people. I would expect that this would be a case by case decsion. A church that advocates overthrow of the Crown would not recieve tax free status.
All in all it does come down to goals and how a specfic town or community (and its leadership) deals with temples, strangers and even taxes. There needs to be tax of some kind, there is need for religions that build the strength of a realm. I can see some faiths getting a better treatment then others that declare themselves, of course religions not declared would pay full taxes (whatever they are) and might be in danger of capture/death from the Watch as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 01:40:52
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I think that rule has changed with 3E. Reading the FRCS and more recent tomes, they clearly state that other faiths are moving into the old empires (Mulhorand & Unther) and the dieties from those realms are also expanding out of their normal realm. So I see no problem there.
Let me see if I can give some advice since I don't think any question has been asked before.
quote:
1) Assuming no more legitimate owner can be found, how would he take title to the building? Can he claim right of conquest? Or does abandonned property escheat to the crown? Or could he pay some fees to quiet title in his name? Would it just be easier to buy some other building outright rather than deal with that kind of red tape?
I would feel someone would step forward to claim ownership. Otherwise it would revert to the crown. The priest could then apply for a title to the place, and pay a fee of some sort, with taxes following afterword (or not, if it is a temple.) I see no way of avoiding the red tape if the priest wants it to be legit.
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2) Would the crown be friendly, neutral or opposed to the cleric of a new faith opening a new temple in Suzail?
Probably neutral at first, since the crown is supposed to be neutral when it comes to the churches. In the Cormyr series, Tanalasta was scolded quite severly if I remember by the King, Queen, and Vangey when she announced she was building a temple with royal backing. That was a line she crossed and as far as I know, has not been repeated, much less discussed if the temple was erected after her death. Now, if there are disturbances with the creation of this temple, and these disturbances affect the peace and prosperity of Suzail, much less being in the royals playground backyard, then they (Alusair)will probably become angry and opposed. If the temple is helpful or promotes the peace somehow, then the Steel Regent will probably become more friendly.
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3) Would Lathanderites be friendly, neutral or opposed to a cleric of Horus-Re opening a new temple? (They could view Horus-Re as a "fellow" sun god or as a "rival" sun god, or maybe be indifferent?)
Easy. Opposed. Unless some heretic tries to start something new (see the Powers of Faerun) they will oppose them with diplomatic means first, as Foxhelm suggested. After that, who knows. It could be hard to reign in some followers, leading to disturbances. Also, anything bad happening could also be blamed on them (bad crops, a mule born with two heads, my wife is barren...) since the faith is from the far east, over the ocean, whatever... Again, possible riots if people get angry or upset enough. Not good for keeping favor with the royals.
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4) Assuming he can jump those hurdles (not sure if he can) what kind of fees, building permits, licenses, inspections, applications, and taxes (if any) would the government (and any other construction guilds, or organizations) exact from him in order to open his temple?
Not a clue. As much as could be legally taken. Less scrupulous officials could try to shake them down for more using phony taxes or outright bribe money. I doubt if there are inspections, but fees, licenses, applications, taxes all apply, especially if there are odd activities that relate to a guild or something. Check Ed's replys from (this year? last year?) I think where Ed talks about guilds in Cormyr and Suzail in particular. Kuje could answer precisly where I saw it. Ed's reply on the guilds could also shed light on the taxes, fees, etc, on who would want part of the pie, so to speak.
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5) Lastly, does anyone know if temples are exempt from property taxes in Cormyr?
Doubtful. I would be surprised. From what I have read, Ed created the Realms to be something seperate from the real world in that don't expect certain customs and belief systems to exist there. Church immunity is a relatively new thing, in the Middle Ages churches paid money to rulers, I think, at least if not in taxes then in protection money or loans not necessarily to be paid back. Not that Rome didn't fight back with excommuncation when church property was seized, but money still shifted hands. To get back on topic, I would be doubtful if temples were exempt. Ask Ed.
Hope that helped, and would love to hear both Ed's replys and what happens in your campaign. I had a certain follower of Isis whose sister was a priestess. His family joined him in Cormyr after being chased from Mulhorand after a vengeful local priest of Anhur went after them.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 01:44:47
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| Given how the crown reacted to Tanalasta's suggestions that the church of Chauntea be granted offical favored status, I would guess that the churches all get taxed, lest Cormyr appear to be favoring one god over another. Thats just my assumption though. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 02:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Given how the crown reacted to Tanalasta's suggestions that the church of Chauntea be granted offical favored status, I would guess that the churches all get taxed, lest Cormyr appear to be favoring one god over another. Thats just my assumption though.
other than Tanalasta's request for Chauntea to be, basically, the chosen church of the state, it seems that any/ all churches would/ are accepted. Exceptions would include the evil aligned churches and any others not willfully found in other cities/ states of the realms of course. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 21:43:33
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Just for my clarification, Lathander is the favored god of Cormyr.... right? Is Bahamut favored at all??? Or any other gods for that matter.
Also, based on the various points made already it would seem as if Cormyr would be decidedly polite about showing that things are just fine with Lathander and that Horus-Re should try the Dales or better yet check out Zhentil Keep (the ruins).  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 21:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Just for my clarification, Lathander is the favored god of Cormyr.... right? Is Bahamut favored at all??? Or any other gods for that matter.
Bahamut? We are talking FR aren't we? Then there is no Bahamut, only Tiamat. So the unswer to your question is no, and I don't think any god is favoured by the state, though one of them is bound to have more warshippers than others, just because of people's preferences. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 16 Jun 2006 21:59:43 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 22:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
Bahamut? We are talking FR aren't we? Then there is no Bahamut, only Tiamat. So the unswer to your question is no, and I don't think any god is favoured by the state, though one of them is bound to have more warshippers than others, just because of people's preferences.
Depends on which edition of lore you want to use. :) He did have power in FR in 1e and 2e but for some reason, unless Dragons of Faerun fixes this, he was removed in the great deity purge of 3e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 23:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Just for my clarification, Lathander is the favored god of Cormyr.... right? Is Bahamut favored at all??? Or any other gods for that matter.
Also, based on the various points made already it would seem as if Cormyr would be decidedly polite about showing that things are just fine with Lathander and that Horus-Re should try the Dales or better yet check out Zhentil Keep (the ruins).
How is Lathander the favored god of Cormyr? Only Eveningstar and Marsember have major temples to him. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2006 : 01:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Just for my clarification, Lathander is the favored god of Cormyr.... right? Is Bahamut favored at all??? Or any other gods for that matter.
Bahamut? We are talking FR aren't we? Then there is no Bahamut, only Tiamat. So the unswer to your question is no, and I don't think any god is favoured by the state, though one of them is bound to have more warshippers than others, just because of people's preferences.
Bahamut existed in both 1e and 2e FR.
We know that leaving Bahamut out of the list of nonhuman deities (among others) in 3e Faiths and Pantheons was actually an error -- as Tom and Eric stated over at WotC. So Bahamut is *supposed* to exist in the 3e Realms just as he did in previous editions.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2006 : 23:14:14
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| Looks like I turned over a rock that has brought significant lore to those who treasure such info. Kuje and Sage, my thanks for the correction. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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How to erect a new temple in Suzail
