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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 01:46:57
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I feel so used.... I played a bard in a new campaign my group started. After realizing how combat weak the character class was I just thought I would Role-play the hell out of the quieter moments of the game. Problem being. I love a good fight! While fighting some over grown rats I sang to boost my parties combat powers but was left kinda feeling .....weak. I decided to stick with the bard for now but the singing thing leaves much to be desired in my opinion. Then again I am a Mage and Thief kinda guy. Then again you would think a bard is right up my alley right?  How do you play your bard?
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Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 02:03:48
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Very carefully . . . sorry couldn't help it.
What race are you playing? One of the things that helped me get into character playing an elven bard was reading the difference between different elven races in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves. It tells you the type of music gold elves write and perform as opposed to silver elves, etc.
Music aside, no, combat really isn't going to be your forte at low levels. Depending on how you are set up, taking up a role as an archer may help to make you not feel quite so weak. This fits in character rather well with an elven or half elven bard, but again, I don't know where you are in that spectrum.
It might actually be fun playing a halfling bard as less than brave, and I must admit, I don't has much advice on gnomish bards. A dwarven bard I can picture getting into the fray, but if this is the case, you will need a high constitution, as much armor as you can wear, and likely toughness or improved toughness so you don't get plowed over right away.
Roleplaying wise, how your bard acts will depend largely on race. Illuskan bards are more likely to be the type to dive into combat and take more combat feats (or even levels of fighter). Ffolk bards may actually be more likely to take leadership roles.
One thing I did with one of my bards once was to make checks on various creatures we were fighting, and if I knew anything about them, I would start to sing songs about battles the creatures had fought where they had lost, to clue my fellow adventurers in on their weaknesses. This was kind of fun, as I felt like I was doing something more than just giving them all a bonus on their rolls. I also sang different songs that might suggest different tactics if something occured to me.
Out of combat, it all depends on the details. I can picture a bard that is chaotic and/or worships Finders as writing a lot of their own pieces and practicing them for their friends, perhaps trying different arrangements of those peices often. Dwarven bards I can picture telling tales of epic battles and perhaps even trying to compare his companions to historical figures. Halflings I can see acting like . . . well, I can't top Olive Ruskettle, so I'll leave it at that. Gnomes are practical jokers, bards have spells . . . you do the math.
Silver Elf bards tend to be more light hearted, singing epics with happy endings, humorous or off color balads, while gold elves tend toward tradgedies. I can see a Silver elf acting much more like a rake, and a gold elf being more interested in finding old songs or accounts of ancient battles and the like.
Just some ideas . . . hope they might help some.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 02:25:10
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Playing a bard, in fairness I have not been a player in a 3.X game so it becomes hard for me to answer from that aspect.
I tend to play bards as second line fighters, same as thieves and Clerics, the Paladins and Fighters are expected to be first lime fighters. Second line and thrid line (mages of whatever class) are expext to provide support to the frount line fighters with thier skills, abilities and knowledge. The front line fighters are to provide protection when other party members when there talents (disarm a trap, or skry for information) are needed. The see and kill is the front line duty, the other classes are more problem solvers one way or another.
I play a bard to use inteligence, wisdom and history. There is not any one way to play a bard, some do not play an interment at all. They however use their skills to aid or just educate others. It is not a hero role many times, it is more a service role that can win a bard powerful friends (and also powerful foes). A bard is a scene shifter at times, seeking to gain advantage for self or others.
"Before you eat me for supper, let me sing a song for you." provides many options, though the imediate concern is not being killed and eaten. The telling of a tale (even without spell casting) could change the minds of the potential dinners, of course a charm worked into the tale would get a defender, the time also allows for a rescue mission to sucede , even the posibility get a weapon and esape because of distraction.
A bard is a teacher, a learning of law, and to suvive needs to be able to protect self, be it by sword, song or spell.
Do not ever expect to be a hero in shining armor when you play a bard. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 02:26:18
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I am a human in a Faerun 300 years after 1372 DR. The DM went all out trust me. Anyways, I had no info to go on to detail my character better because the DM put out info like, Some places and gods might not exist anymore. OK, well what is different and the same was detailed with much to be desired in the informing of the players. In fact most of my knowledge rolls were awesome but I just didn't get any info because the DM hasn't thought up lore for the area we are in yet and to tell you the truth I think this might be one of my problems with the bard. I am attempting to use abilities that are poking at weak points in the DM's campaign relevant lore. I though it was funny that I counted even take weapon finesse at first level due to a +0 BAB to start. When I bought the spell compendium I was all excited to sonic the heck out of some monsters. I hope I still get to. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 02:37:33
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"DM put out info like, Some places and gods might not exist anymore. OK, well what is different and the same was detailed with much to be desired in the informing of the players."
This indeed a major handycap to bards, and as far as it goes to clerics. The DM it appears overreached in the time jump, thus unbalancing the classes. A knowledge check when the DM does not know the answer will fail, even if the knowledge is common knowledge (or should be inferred to be well known(. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 05:07:34
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| Your DM is weak, and should be terminated. Wandering Mage: start your own campaign. |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 07:03:59
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I have to tell you, the two classes I have the most fun playing are bard and monk.
Of course, I did multiclass into 2 levels of ftr with the bard, but the key to playing a bard is knowing that you literally are the jack of all trades for the party. Carry and use the party's wands, use bardic music, jump in and flank for the rogue (I highly recommend this), have some healing spells, be the second scout, and of course, you are the face of the party in almost all instances. In my case, the 2 levels of fighter (along with weapon finesse) actually made me into a decent stop-gap fighter for the party. The Bard is good at doing a whole slew of things equally well.
I would agree, however, that in combat sometimes I felt alot like Elan in the Order of the Stick, simply cause I did such little damage, and especially before I multiclassed to fighter. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 10:08:34
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If the DM is struggling to fill in the lore and that's hampering you badly, then the other major route you could take a bard down is being the group's Faceman.
This is the guy who interacts with NPCs, does deals and makes contacts and finds out all the info he can. Basically, he's a cross between a PR guy, a detective and a spy. It's a good way of keeping the PC important and active in the campaign, especially one where knowledge checks are coming up short. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 30 Apr 2006 10:10:59 |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 19:55:18
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| Thank you all for your advice. I might multi-class a few levels of fighter just to smooth out my capabilities. Plus I need weapon finesse or I am about as good as a scarecrow. Also, I am actually the DM for my group about 99% of the time. Even though I would not boast being the best DM I always plan really well before a game. Plus I read all the lore I can concerning the campaign my players are playing at the time. It is important for me to at least have something made up so that my players can use every ability open to them. In the defense of my DM, this is his first time DM'ing. He played the NPC's well and I did play the party front man. However one of the party members has the Drizzt fan club bad boy thing going on and it gets annoying. Then again, if you can role-play it, no matter how poorly, you can be it. Something for every one. That is DnD. C'est vrai? |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2006 : 01:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Thank you all for your advice. I might multi-class a few levels of fighter just to smooth out my capabilities. Plus I need weapon finesse or I am about as good as a scarecrow.
Give us a short write-up on your character feats, skills and equipment, and I shall do my best to give you advice on character building (I've created some really nasty bards in the last two years, mostly as NPCs against my players...)
Assuming you're allowed to reselect all feats from 1st-level, and knowing you're a human, do this:
1. DO NOT MULTICLASS: stay a pure bard -- the 3.5 bard spell list is NAAAASTY and you'll kick yourself at higher levels if you don't have these sweeet, sweeeeet spells...
2. YES: get Weapon Finesse as soon as you want... then use a whip, a lot. You'll also want Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm to use with that whip... then perhaps Improved Trip. Basically, anything that gets an opponent defenseless or on his ARSE is good: forget damage-feats... as you found out yourself, bards are not here for damage. Plus, you can use all the above-mentioned feats with your whip, up to 15-feet away!!!
3. MAX OUT YOUR PERFORM and USE FASCINATE at the begining of every fight: hang 10-20ft behind the party's main scout and start fascinating enemies while the party hides/goes around the enemies. Sometimes you'll avoid entire fights that way, and if your DM is not a nitwit, he'll grant full XPs for that anyway (as per the DMG who says that circumventing/avoiding fights is good as a kill...)
4. Look at the new spells offered by the FR books, or other books such as Complete Adventurer, Spell Compendium, etc. Bards are now VERY powerful if you choose the right feats/spells. Remember that a MW instrument allows you to perform two bardic music effects at once, some instruments three!! |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2006 : 02:06:09
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I have the stealthy feat, and the combat expertise feat. I have the following stats: S-12 D-16 C-13 I-14 W-12 CH-17. I am a human bard level 1, I have about 4 skill points in perform and more ranks spread out evenly but with emphasis on talking skills and knowledge skills. I have the trusty rapier as a weapon and several daggers. With a harp stapped to my pack I travel the land writing the stories of my comrades. 
Here is a question. Do I get the ability to perform (sing) even if I don't specify that I take it? I have the perform skill with the harp and storytelling. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2006 : 10:26:04
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| Perform can be used without trainin, so yes you could sing but would have no ranks in it (just your cha bonus) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2006 : 14:44:11
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As Kal said, yes, you can sing with no ranks in Perform (sing), but NO, you cannot use the magical bardic music effects that the bard class gives you without ranks in some kind of sonic-based perform skill (i.e. you need 3 ranks in either Perform (insert instrument here) or Perform (sing) or Perform (oratory) or any other verbal/musical Perform skill to activate the Inspire Courage bardic effect, for example -- I urge you to READ THE BARD CLASS AGAIN!! these things are pretty basic knowledge if you plan to play a bard...)
See my signature block for the internet address of the 3.5 rules online... they are free and a great backup to books when you're at work! |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2006 : 21:30:14
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Alas, my weakness may involve my quick reading of the class description. This is all good advice that I will take into account. Now if I may, do any of you use stories and songs that you find on Candlekeep to enrich your games with more flavor? I am trying to but I don't want to hog too much time.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 00:07:18
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I advice checking bard PrC classes and advice keep on whit bard at least 6lvl before multiclassing. Dirgesingers and Warchanters are nasty combat focused bards, Sublime CHord is more spellcasting focused but needs at least 10lvl, same goes to Seeker of Song whcih is kick ass bard whit nasty songs ;).
But do not underestimate bard's suggestion tough, whit high roll whit perform you can make foes out fo the fight. I made a epic fighter (own party member yes but guy annoyed my char seriously whit poor told stories) so I said he goes seek angel in hell into a date :P. You quess the full duration run out (about six or more hours) and after few battle fighter came back and has been silent like rock ever since when I am near him. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 03:17:11
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When I was DM'ing a bard with some awesome suggestion I thought it was silly that when a fight was initiated that the monster/npc would be swayed by the Bard's suggestion ability. If you all are saying it is that strong I might have to apologize to a my player. Then again maybe not. He tends to be a pain in the ass munchkin.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 09:16:48
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Suggestion cannot be used in combat:
quote:
A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated
quote:
Fascinate (Sp): ..... Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working....
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 19:11:10
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On the topic of playing a bard in combat:
Collect a few wands/scrolls of area control. Wall of ice, black tentacles, stinking cloud.
Use the area control accessible to the bard: Grease and illusions
Throw out some summoned monsters to grant flanking.
Throw a blindness/deafness onto an enemy caster/archer.
Work on demoralizing foes: Ventriloquism, and arrows with magic mouth(there is a post on the board about magic arrows somewhere to look at for a few ideas). Song of Discord is a good one too.
Pump up your allies with Heroism, and bardic music.
Before you charge into combat throw up a mirror images spell.
Use a wand of cure light to go around and bump up the fighters so they don't drop so fast.
Out of combat:
Bardic music, bardic knowledge are really really cool for persuading lots of people that your way of thinking is the 'right' way of thinking.
Modify memory is your friend in ugly situation.
On a personal level, as a GM I give extra EXP for stories and songs, and more again if actually performed by the player.
I love it when the players make up tales/poems/songs about the great deeds of the party. It helps with reputation and often grants improved reactions from NPC's.
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 00:29:04
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Oh yes, I forgot that. Anycase bard fare in melee if he remmebers boost himself whit one handy spell and Mirror Image is one and charge on combat whit longsword (or rapier whit weapon finesse) and then figth defensively while you start sing (Inspire Courage or some else song which boosts combat prowess or counter any sonic abilities like other bard's songs or harpy's screams etc) and take 5'ft step.
Of course when I play bard I tend use more spells than most and be secondary caster but also be sneaky combatant who tumbles into flanking position whit main fighter or rogue than charge headlong. But thena gain bard is bastard of all classes so he cna fight whatever is most wise to do.
If you face foes whit low AC but alot HP, low saves while you do low dam, stay away and focus on casting. If facing foes whit low HP but high AC while you do low dam, go into melee if you have high hit mod. If you face foe whit high AC and HP and saves, stick out the combat and focus on healing and boosting your more martial comrades. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 14:35:24
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When I was playing a Dwarven Bard in Hammer of Moradins email campaign, I rewrote the song of 'Omaha' by Counting Crows, for a little marching ballad called Kuldahar :)
[to the tune of Omaha by Counting Crows]
"Start tearing the goblins down
Run past the oak tree and down to the old Vale
Start turning the undead to their homes
Roll a new corpse over
In the middle of the night
There's an druid treading around in the gathered rain
Well mister, if you're going to walk on water
Could you send a heal my way?
Kuldahar
Somewhere in the middle of Icewind Dale
Get right to the Heart of Winter
It's the heart that matters more
I think you better turn your spellbook in
And hang your crossbow up at the door
Start threading through dungeons
Brush past the arrows that fly through the cold room
Start setting the yetis on fire
Knock the chieftain over
In the middle of the night
there's a druid chatting with animals on the porch
Hey mister, you don't want to talk to badgers
You're only going to talk to nothing else
Kuldahar
Somewhere in the middle of Icewind Dale
Get right to the Heart of Winter
It's the heart that matters more
I think you better turn your spellbook in
And hang your crossbow up at the door
Start running the evil down
Drop past the danger come up through the other side
Start hacking the orcs into the ground
Start a new tale over
In the middle of the day
There's a young man yelling about the heroes on their way
Hey mister, if you're going to shout about us
You know you should let the whole world come and see.
Kuldahar
Somewhere in the middle of Icewind Dale
Get right to the Heart of Winter
It's the heart that matters more
I think you better turn your spellbook in
And hang your crossbow up at the door
Kuldahar
Somewhere in the middle of Icewind Dale
Get right to the Heart of Winter
It's the heart that matters more
I think you better turn your spellbook in
And hang your crossbow up at the door " |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 01:25:56
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| Kaladorm, that song rocks! I am a counting crows fan myself. Now when I DM'ed my bard player would always roll to perform or to persuade some one and I would actually make him talk it out. He hated this of course but I just really wanted him to start it off. After all even if you are a great speaker, with great looks, and every body likes you. Well, you might slip up by saying something that rings of a low intelligence score. You know what I mean. Charater gets a 25 on a diplomacy roll and he walks up to the dwarf saying that he would like the dwarf to sell his suit of armor he made for less because really the crafting doesn't look that good. Character then is told to roll for initiative. Hahaha, you know what I mean? |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 05:57:53
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Dusting off an old sailor-bard hailing from Waterdeep to bring you this (adapted from and to the tune of "Heart of Oak")
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Come cheer up, my lads! 'tis to glory we steer,
To add something more to this wonderful year;
To honour we call you, not push you like a slave,
For who are so free as the sons of the waves?
Chorus
Heart of oak are our ships, heart of oak are our men;
We always are ready, steady, boys, steady!
We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again.
We ne'er see our foes but we wish them to stay,
Neither do they see us but they wish us away;
If they run, why we follow, and we run them ashore,
For if they won't fight us, we cannot do more.
Chorus
Heart of oak are our ships, heart of oak are our men;
We always are ready, steady, boys, steady!
We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again
They swear they'll invade us, these terrible foes,
They frighten our women, our children, not our bows;
But should their flat bottoms ever reach our harbor,
Still Dock Ward they'll find to handle them for sure!
Chorus
Heart of oak are our ships, heart of oak are our men;
We always are ready, steady, boys, steady!
We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again
We'll still make them fear, and we'll still make them flee,
And drub 'em on shore, as we've drubb'd 'em at sea;
Then cheer up, my lads! with one heart let us roar:
Our soldiers, our sailors, our mages, our Lords!
Chorus
Heart of oak are our ships, heart of oak are our men;
We always are ready, steady, boys, steady!
We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 03:19:47
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| Thank you very much for sharing that song. You guys don't mind if I use these songs for my bard do you. I think it might add some serious flavor to my game. Also, if any one else has some cool poetry or song they would like to post please do. This is some good stuff. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 13:54:25
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| Just an update on my Bard. I recently took a level of Ranger so now my character is Bard 2/Ranger 1. This actually rounded me out very well. I think I will be leveling equally in both classes for now on. I am almost as good as the party fighter except for my terrible AC which is 15. Just thought I'd let ya'll know. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 12:48:12
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| I don't want to play my bard anymore. The whole party is relying on me for all the talking all the time. It's like they might be asked a question and they will look at me to answer. Plus, I would rather be a mage. (There is a shirt for you. "I'd rather be a mage.") |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 04:45:15
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| Take a look at the various bardish Prestige Classes...look in Complete Adventurer for some good ones...theres a good one in Draconomicon I believe...and of course my fav. is the Spellsinger in Races of Faerun. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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How do you RP a bard???
