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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 21:57:32
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A companion thread to the villains thread. This is about discussing what sorts of protagionists you'd like to see more of in Forgotten Realms and what you're tired of/rather not see vs. what you'd like to see more of and examples of what you liked in the past.
For me, I have the preference for characters that are non-traditional "heroes." The Cormyr Saga and the Moonshaes I enjoyed strongly because they were about the monarchy of those respective lands that were brought into the conflict because of their protection rather than deliberately seeking 'adventure.'
(See the Villains thread for my opinion on 'adventurers')
I also am very fond of the Elminster saga by Ed Greenwood because its primarily about the making of a wizard rather than a man out to seek his fortune. Most of all, my favorite books have to be the ones chronicling the gods though for their Clash of the Titans like feel. Go Troy.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 23 Mar 2006 22:00:16
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 02:53:09
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What sort of heroes do we want to see?  Honestly and frankly speaking, much of my fellows and I had been exposed to too much stories focuing on classic and famous villains that we lost track of the realm-rescuing heroes. Also, the way the villains are portrayed in the novels somehow makes them the more "attractive, sexy and hot" group then the heroes. For the heroes, there are so many random heroes of unknown or not classical origins popping up here and there to save the day. Even the classical heroes like the Seven Sisters and Elminister somehow...gone stagnant(please, no offense intended) and we don't see them much in action or in life-threatening situations that makes them feel their mortality or think about their actions in a Real-time perspective, also, the way they are written as near "omnipotent" somehow loses the attraction, this is not an offensive comment but honest opinion.
Exception would be RAS novels which are indeed outstanding and the heroes are portrayed in a manner that are realistic, practical, parallel to real-world heroes and parallel to what true heroes really feel and think, I think RAS really does a marvelous style of writing such hero novels. Elaine Cunningham also does a great job in this area too! Troy Denning, to an extent, does this quite well.
Frankly speaking, I and my friends, fellows would like to see heroes potrayed in a manner that is akin to how RAS portrays his heroes, whereby we want to see the heroes thrown into imaginative and creative yet dangerous situations that makes them feel their mortality and we don't want to see and we are tired of the heroes with attitudes like "Ha, no problem,I will blast them all to hell with my whatever magic/ or kill them all!/ I am XXXXX and can't be taken down by this ragtag mob as I am blessed or chosen of XXXXXXX" which somehow loses the reader attention, we want to see them using their creativity, adaptability(this would give a 3-D feel to heroes readers initially think as bland and draw the reader attention further) such as like say "a variation of a spell I created" and we want to see the heroes pressed to the extreme in mind and spirit-breaking situations(realistic and dynamic yet practical, if you read the Diablo: Moon of the Spider, you will know what I entirely mean) that test them to the extreme. This is what draws the attention of the readers. Also, the "X-rated" stuff the heroes get involved in...should be minimized so as to not to lose the reader's attention.
Lastly, we want heroes that are "non-conventional" that means not the usual type we see: as handsome as Drizzt or Danilo, stunning and breathtaking as the beauty of the Seven Sisters or superpowerful as Vangerdahast or Elminister.
We want to see heroes that are described as like: pasty, undead-looking with flawless face, cool and emotionless demeanor while hiding his intentions and thinking feelings behind, studious with exotic eyes and frost-colored hair. We want to see heroes from creative and imaginative backgrounds like born from a accidental circumstances that mark him as an outcast, heroes with practical, humble, creative, imaginative, flexible and adaptable spirit and mind, and the type that is quite "green" for whatever endeavor, with unusual personality (I am not refering personalities like Artemis or Jarlaxle personality type but rather something akin to Drizzt style, Danilo or Elaith style).
For the kind of villains and terrain these heroes are going to challenge, we want to see the heroes going to exotic, ancient, remote lands to challenge villains (that are not the conventional and popular and existing villains) but villains that are darkly intelligent, ancient and yet with such a dark evil in them that outshines the realms' villains, power unimaginable(best if umimaginable, for it makes the reader think and keep the reader wanting to read further) and the terrain the heroes to fight in should be some ancient ruins, underground site ruin and with exotic planar monsters from the Monster Manual 1-3 thrown into the mix. Also, we don't want to see the heroes "go and get help from Elminister or whatever" but rely on their meager resources and ingenuity to improvise their work and strategy (the way they improvise should be described in creative detail to impress the reader) to fight an seemingly unknown, unrecorded, not well known ancient villain with incredible feats of power. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 03:49:14
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For me, I think part of the problem is that Elminster and the Chosen have been portrayed as heroes when they really aren't supposed to be.
I took Elminster to be retired, despite some implications to the contrary, and from this point is relying on solely giving information to the next generation of heroes as his forte. Thus, his role as the Sage of Shadowdale and maybe occasionally throwing some magical help the way of the PCs. Too much war, bloodshed, loss, and too many years make Elminster need a rest....maybe seven hundred years or so. The Seven Sisters are monarchs for the most part and so is Khelban for all intents and purposes. Thus, for the most part, they have no time to be off fighting evil or helping individual adventurers. The only people who can are Dove and Storm but they're both effectively powerless and only as good as the average adventurer due to the fact they're warriors not wizards.
The realms is BIG after all and I think a more realistic portrayal than them gallivanting about attacking Phaerimm and Shades would be a good idea.
If I have a big complaint about the "heroes" of the Realms, its that too often we need to fall back and stereotypical adventures. The Drow are going to invade such and such, Red Wizards are plotting to smuggle something, and so on. All of it is very self contained and it rarely seems to make much in the way of a difference in the context of the story. Take the Sellswords First Book, Jaxarle and Entrei destroy a Tower of the Witch King. One of the reasons Cormyr was so effective is that it had lasting consequences for the setting. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 09:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Exception would be RAS novels which are indeed outstanding and the heroes are portrayed in a manner that are realistic, practical, parallel to real-world heroes and parallel to what true heroes really feel and think, I think RAS really does a marvelous style of writing such hero novels.
I find it curious that you would say so while objecting that the likes of the Seven Sisters and Elminster are too "omnipotent." When was the last time the Companions of the Hall suffered genuine loss? The combat scenes have lost their "suspense," such as it is, long ago. Even emotionally, they haven't really gone through anything "spirit-breaking." Wulfgar's character just regressed.
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We want to see heroes that are described as like: pasty, undead-looking with flawless face, cool and emotionless demeanor while hiding his intentions and thinking feelings behind, studious with exotic eyes and frost-colored hair.
"Cheer up, emo goth kid."
Shouldn't characters' merits be based on their personalities and how they are written rather than how "cool" they look?
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We want to see heroes from creative and imaginative backgrounds like born from a accidental circumstances that mark him as an outcast, heroes with practical, humble, creative, imaginative, flexible and adaptable spirit and mind, and the type that is quite "green" for whatever endeavor, with unusual personality (I am not refering personalities like Artemis or Jarlaxle personality type but rather something akin to Drizzt style, Danilo or Elaith style).
Speak for yourself; I hope you're using the royal "we." I'm not interested in orphaned farmboys learning that he's got a destiny to save the world and is royalty in disguise. For that matter, most fantasy bildungsromans bore me, since they almost inavriably feature teenage characters who wallow in petty, self-indulgent angst ("nobody understands me, me, MEEEE" and "the world revolves around me, all woes are caused by me, me, MEEE" -- hi, Drizzt) and juvenile love triangles.
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For the kind of villains and terrain these heroes are going to challenge, we want to see the heroes going to exotic, ancient, remote lands to challenge villains (that are not the conventional and popular and existing villains) but villains that are darkly intelligent, ancient and yet with such a dark evil in them that outshines the realms' villains, power unimaginable(best if umimaginable, for it makes the reader think and keep the reader wanting to read further) and the terrain the heroes to fight in should be some ancient ruins, underground site ruin and with exotic planar monsters from the Monster Manual 1-3 thrown into the mix.
Again, I hope you're either being ironic or using the royal we. Ancient, dark evil with unimaginable power? Gag me with a cliche and strangle me with a predictable plotline. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 10:30:20
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Winterfox, the 'we' referred to the poster and his friends...
as to the goth part... maybe silvermage and his friends should read more Vampire novels. To define Characters by their looks, um...uh...no! Hell no!!! Imagine this: A darkly handsome man, wearing a black suit of armor... wow a blackguard... Otherwise you could IRL say that every person wearing business clothes is honest and law-abiding. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 10:32:22
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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Winterfox, the 'we' referred to the poster and his friends...
Right, I was skimming; apologies. I stand by the rest of what I said, though. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 11:14:28
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Thanks be to Winterfox and Mace Hammerhand for their comments. Well in reference to Winterfox's comments:
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We want to see heroes that are described as like: pasty, undead-looking with flawless face, cool and emotionless demeanor while hiding his intentions and thinking feelings behind, studious with exotic eyes and frost-colored hair.
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"Cheer up, emo goth kid."
Shouldn't characters' merits be based on their personalities and how they are written rather than how "cool" they look?
Well that was just an example I quoted of what my friends and I would like to see. Example, Mr Richard Lee description of Dorn Graybrook as an ugly half-golem with impressive fighting skills and raw will and a rather tragedic background and Mr Paul's Erevis as a shade with a dark background is something which I and my friends would like to see more often. Heroes that are unique, exotic and different from the conventional ones we see. True, though merits and personalities are important, unusual looks and unusual charms enhances the hero too.
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Originally posted by silvermage
Exception would be RAS novels which are indeed outstanding and the heroes are portrayed in a manner that are realistic, practical, parallel to real-world heroes and parallel to what true heroes really feel and think, I think RAS really does a marvelous style of writing such hero novels.
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I find it curious that you would say so while objecting that the likes of the Seven Sisters and Elminster are too "omnipotent." When was the last time the Companions of the Hall suffered genuine loss? The combat scenes have lost their "suspense," such as it is, long ago. Even emotionally, they haven't really gone through anything "spirit-breaking." Wulfgar's character just regressed.
Didn't some of the Companions went near to the edge of death such as in the case of Bruenor, weren't their resolve, patience, hope tested to the extreme? Such as during the orc-dwarf war in the HBT. Even Drizzt turned into a single-minded killing machine, this are excellent portrayals of real-life situations and of the things that people will do when thrown into such situations. Wasn't wulfgar spirit broken? He was left half the man he was after the stay from the Abyss and an common example of someone who suffered and content to stay in their pathetic state.
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We want to see heroes from creative and imaginative backgrounds like born from a accidental circumstances that mark him as an outcast, heroes with practical, humble, creative, imaginative, flexible and adaptable spirit and mind, and the type that is quite "green" for whatever endeavor, with unusual personality (I am not refering personalities like Artemis or Jarlaxle personality type but rather something akin to Drizzt style, Danilo or Elaith style).
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Speak for yourself; I hope you're using the royal "we." I'm not interested in orphaned farmboys learning that he's got a destiny to save the world and is royalty in disguise. For that matter, most fantasy bildungsromans bore me, since they almost inavriably feature teenage characters who wallow in petty, self-indulgent angst ("nobody understands me, me, MEEEE" and "the world revolves around me, all woes are caused by me, me, MEEE" -- hi, Drizzt) and juvenile love triangles.
I did not mean "orphaned" heroes, but example such as heroes who come from famous evil organizations and labeled as outcasts for their sudden righteousness, heroes seized from time past or freed from their eternal prisons and thrown into the present for some impossible job that they only can do, heroes or villain "converts" ressurected from the grave or from their prison for some purpose (not Flar, Flar role in the Last Mythal seemed quite minor), it is just that we wish to see heroes from interesting and unique backgrounds.
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For the kind of villains and terrain these heroes are going to challenge, we want to see the heroes going to exotic, ancient, remote lands to challenge villains (that are not the conventional and popular and existing villains) but villains that are darkly intelligent, ancient and yet with such a dark evil in them that outshines the realms' villains, power unimaginable(best if umimaginable, for it makes the reader think and keep the reader wanting to read further) and the terrain the heroes to fight in should be some ancient ruins, underground site ruin and with exotic planar monsters from the Monster Manual 1-3 thrown into the mix.
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Again, I hope you're either being ironic or using the royal we. Ancient, dark evil with unimaginable power? Gag me with a cliche and strangle me with a predictable plotline.
Wouldn't it be a good change from the usual villains we see everyday, something like Countess Sarya whose origins suddenly baffles everyone and goes on a rampage. I mean using ancient powerful evils of unknown origins and no records on them, the heroes are forced and tested on their creativity, imaginativty, adpatability and ingenuity to fight the evil with nothing, no information on the enemy they are fighting and not relying on some sage's advice or weapons guranteed to harm the foe, but rather fighting the evil with faith, hope, courage and flexibility. Whereby we don't want to see like the Chosen one shot kill the enemy with silverfire-gurantees a kill, rather we would want to see heroes fighting with all their hearts and souls to beat down the evil. This is what I and my friends would like to see. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 11:20:20
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quote:
originally posted by Winterfox
For that matter, most fantasy bildungsromans bore me, since they almost inavriably feature teenage characters who wallow in petty, self-indulgent angst ("nobody understands me, me, MEEEE" and "the world revolves around me, all woes are caused by me, me, MEEE" -- hi, Drizzt)
In all fairness sake, that does sound like pretty good description of most adolescents going through the height of puberty. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 11:25:41
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hehehe...this is the heroes thread ... feel free to write THAT in the villains thread ;-)
But seriously, it does not have to be an ancient evil to be smart, creative etc. And the Dlargardeths aren't that smart IMO, if they were they would've tried to keep quiet about a century longer and *then* act. They rely too much on beings even more unpredictable than themselves.
But let's not hijack this thread for it is about heroes... (maybe we should also make a thread about anti-heroes...NOT!) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 11:45:11
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I must, seriously must applaud Silvermage's courage in expressing what a number of realms fans are having on their minds, including myself and my friends. Thank you, Silvermage.
Yup, the expectations of the heroes that I would like to see should be something parallel to RAS style.
Currently, I am seeing a change in the winds, for we see heroes like Dorn the Half-Golem supported by a dragon(totally unexpected by me) fighting masterminds like Sammaster. We also see shades like Erevis fighting evil that is unique and stylish. It is nice to see authors changing from the conventional appearances of the heroes. I like Erevis, he doesn't depend much on weapons unlike some heroes that are quite gear-dependent as if gear will win the day. Erevis employs knowledge, conscience, personal skills and his own raw will to fight opponents that he had never fought before, it makes Erevis look "self-sufficient" and self-reliant.
There is one character from the Pool of Radiance trilogy and the Ruins of Myth Drannor, though I admit the books are not so well written, but the cleric from the POR trilogy and the Paladin from the Ruins of Myth Drannor had a good impression on me, for both fought on faith, denying fear and naywords, refusing to be cowed by opponents they don't know about and obviously powerful enough to squish them. So it is good to see characters fighting opponents armed only with strong faith and iron will. Better than seeing heroes going round seeking ancient weapons or some sage advice to fight the enemy, it is like where is the heroism in doing this? Afterall, heroes are to fight their opponents with their inner strengths than external strengths-such as magic.
Also, to glorify the hero and make the hero something more than life and near "3-D", the heroes should not be fighting conventional and established villains, I should see the heroes fight enemies like the Dragon King-an unknown entity from unknown realm with unknown powers and this is a excellent villain to exploit and with vast potential to use as a great villain. In the meantime, the heroes should be acting like novices in the face of the enemy who acts as if "omnipotent" temporaily against the heroes, letting the heroes be thrown into situations they think they can't win but of course, I don't want to see them say "retreat and fight another day or surrender", no ,I want to see heroes throwing up a defiant front in face of the enemy, display the no-die spirit and using faith, will, witty minds and not weapons or magic (magic and weapons too commonly seen in heroes) to deal with the enemy, for this will lead to the heroes using unconventional means to fight the enemy as they improvise their tactics. Creative ways of fighting foes tend to draw attention and impress the reader on the heroes. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 11:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermageI did not mean "orphaned" heroes, but example such as heroes who come from famous evil organizations and labeled as outcasts for their sudden righteousness, heroes seized from time past or freed from their eternal prisons and thrown into the present for some impossible job that they only can do, heroes or villain "converts" ressurected from the grave or from their prison for some purpose (not Flar, Flar role in the Last Mythal seemed quite minor), it is just that we wish to see heroes from interesting and unique backgrounds.
"Outcast from his society", "from another time", and "former villain" are hardly unique fantasy hero backgrounds. In fact, I personally consider them to all be the complete opposite: fantasy cliches.
Of the backgrounds you mention, only a hero who has been resurrected is relatively unusual in fantasy, and even then it's certainly not unique (see Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 6 for example). Also, a closely related background is "re-incarnated hero", which is far too common for my liking. Of course, "blessed by a deity" is almost as frequent... 
Here are a few of my own ideas for unusual heroes:
- gnome. We've had humans, elves, half-elves, drow, dwarves, halflings, and members of several "unusual" races, but gnome heroes are distinctly lacking in FR fiction - even as background characters.
- half-orc or half-ogre. AFAIK no FR novel has ever featured one as a protagonist, though I could be wrong.
- zombie, ghost, lich, or pretty much any form of undead other than vampire. Prefferably one who isn't obsessed with being returned to life.
- lycanthrope of a sort other than werewolf. One of the coolest things about the otherwise rather poor Eye of the Beholder 3 RPG was the weretiger ranger NPC.
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I mean using ancient powerful evils of unknown origins and no records on them, the heroes are forced and tested on their creativity, imaginativty, adpatability and ingenuity to fight the evil with nothing, no information on the enemy they are fighting and not relying on some sage's advice or weapons guranteed to harm the foe, but rather fighting the evil with faith, hope, courage and flexibility.
A *huge* number of Forgotten Realms novels feature such villains, maybe even as many as a third of them. Crypt of the Shadowking, the Night Parade, the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, the Threat from the Sea trilogy, and the Return of the Archwizards trilogy all spring to mind... though admittedly at least a couple of them do fall back on the old "ancient prophecy" / "secret weapon" routine. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 24 Mar 2006 12:22:36 |
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Halcyon
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 12:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
I want to see heroes throwing up a defiant front in face of the enemy, display the no-die spirit and using faith, will, witty minds and not weapons or magic (magic and weapons too commonly seen in heroes) to deal with the enemy, for this will lead to the heroes using unconventional means to fight the enemy as they improvise their tactics.
Precisely, it would be good to see example the heroes using the enemy's strengths against the enemy himself. A good change from the usual magic weapons or silverfire or spellfire.
The heroes besides like what TymoraChosen and Silvermage mentioned being exotic, with interesting origins, and independent with strong reliance on inner strengths then external qualities.
I and some of my friends who had been reading the realm novels for a very long time also think that we should see some heroes dying as martyrs in the beginning like Azoun IV dying as a martyr, then from there, it would be good to see the hero's child like Azoun V rising as the next potential hero of the realms and "stand aside Vangerdahast, let the newbies fight" whereby Azoun V rises as the next savior of Cormyr where he beats down a monster enemy, route invading hordes with his smart mind and not using armies to fight but I would like to see heroes with an excellent sense of integrity and with a spirit of self-denial(that is not surrendering to the base desires of oneself but fighting it)
Such as the hero's son like Azoun V fighting his inner desires and denying them, refusing to look at beautiful ladies for more than a minute and concentrating on fighting the foe and not distracted by his inner desires-like I refuse beautiful women no matter how beautiful they are and I won't look at them not even for a minute and I reject their advances no matter what happens, I refuse wine as it makes me lose control of myself and dulls my instincts, I refuse gambling as gambling is evil and etc. because it contaminates my being and clouds my mind and stops me from focusing on the task. This is what I expect from a true and great hero.
We want to see young rising heroes fighting three frontal wars:
1) fighting the external enemy such as example the Devil Dragon Mark II rises and young 15 year old Azoun V go and deal with it singly without an army and survive the ordeal with his smart brains and inner strength. By beating the enemy, Azoun V becomes immortalized in legends like small David beating down mighty Goliath, and outshine Steel Regent Alusair and Vangerdahast. It can be the foe and hero meet together to fight.
2) fighting the internal enemy-I mean foes whereby the closest friends and kin of the hero actually mean harm by being would-be assassins and complicating the hero life. The would-be assassins can be sent by the foe or can because of petty reasons the would-be assassin want to kill the hero. Then the hero would be forced to distrust and try to sort out "who is with me and who is trying to kill me", make the hero the target and yet the detective who fights to save himself and yet fight the external for that threatens the realms.
3) fighting the inner enemy-whereby the foe try to weaken the hero by using mental magics to whisper dark words to the hero, unknowingly to the hero, trying to corrupt the hero from within and make him the fool to those who respect and glorify the hero. This test the hero's resilience, faith and commitment to upheld principles, and fighting to not hear the dark words and fighting to uphold the good things as if dark and light sides are warring within the hero.
By combining all the mentioned three as well as the hero refusal to fall for his carnal and base desires, this would make the hero real-life and appealing and make him worthy of the reader's respect and worthy of the name "hero". |
Edited by - Halcyon on 24 Mar 2006 12:35:14 |
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Halcyon
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 12:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
"Outcast from his society", "from another time", and "former villain" are hardly unique fantasy hero backgrounds. In fact, I personally consider them to all be the complete opposite: fantasy cliches.
Of the backgrounds you mention, only a hero who has been resurrected is relatively unusual in fantasy, and even then it's certainly not unique (see Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 6 for example). Also, a closely related background is "re-incarnated hero", which is far too common for my liking. Of course, "blessed by a deity" is almost as frequent...
For a more unusual character background, how about a hero who's a zombie or a ghost? Or pretty much any undead other than vampire? Also, how about a lycanthrope of a sort other than werewolf? One of the coolest things about the otherwise rather poor Eye of the Beholder 3 RPG was the weretiger ranger NPC.
Why not ressurected heroes? why not from another time? why not outcasts? Such ideas should be examined for potential, not simpy rejected just because they are far fetched or too much. To me, writing needs a lot of imagination, and it is always new ideas, new imaginative ideas that winds the reader.
Of course, using undead or lycanthropes are great too! But undead tend to be against all life as life rejects them no matter how much they want to be alive again, but undead heroes fighting for the living would make it a bit "anti-hero" but still acceptable. Why not a dunpeal? Half-human, half-vampire or half-human, half-undead, this would be a good one. Lycanthropes...hmmm, well the Mistress of the Night and Black Wolf had covered such heroes, with potential too that cannot be denied.
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I mean using ancient powerful evils of unknown origins and no records on them, the heroes are forced and tested on their creativity, imaginativty, adpatability and ingenuity to fight the evil with nothing, no information on the enemy they are fighting and not relying on some sage's advice or weapons guranteed to harm the foe, but rather fighting the evil with faith, hope, courage and flexibility.
A *huge* number of Forgotten Realms novels feature such villains, maybe even as many as a third of them. Crypt of the Shadowking, the Night Parade, the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, the Threat from the Sea trilogy, and the Return of the Archwizards trilogy all spring to mind... though admittedly at least a couple of them do fall back on the old "ancient prophecy" / "secret weapon" routine.
Well, the shadowking, Shadow of Avatar, the Night Parade, Threat from the sea seemed to be good novels but yet the heroes still uses weapons that are supposedly the key to destroying the villains. The RotA also uses Shadow Weave as weapon against phaerimm but at least the hero uses the knowledge of the enemy against the enemy by using the enemy habits and tactics against themselves. Good way but need some improvement. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 12:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon
"stand aside Vangerdahast, let the newbies fight" whereby Azoun V rises as the next savior of Cormyr where he beats down a monster enemy, route invading hordes with his smart mind and not using armies to fight but I would like to see heroes with an excellent sense of integrity and with a spirit of self-denial(that is not surrendering to the base desires of oneself but fighting it)
It is high time for a new generation of realm-saving heroes to step up and take over the older generation roles of being the hero. I agree. Heroes with a excellent sense of integrity and spirit of self-denial? Quite akin to a paladin code and Drizzt style.
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Such as the hero's son like Azoun V fighting his inner desires and denying them, refusing to look at beautiful ladies for more than a minute and concentrating on fighting the foe and not distracted by his inner desires-like I refuse beautiful women no matter how beautiful they are and I won't look at them not even for a minute and I reject their advances no matter what happens, I refuse wine as it makes me lose control of myself and dulls my instincts, I refuse gambling as gambling is evil and etc. because it contaminates my being and clouds my mind and stops me from focusing on the task. This is what I expect from a true and great hero
Wow, that makes the hero kind of like a monk who rejects desires and wants. So, it seems the hero should be the stand and fight alone type with no companions at his side and not having the love of his life. Excellent suggestion, I like such kind of heroes who have a sense of righteousness and yet enjoys loneliness by being alone for the whole of his life, fighting his foes and by being alone, no harm would come to the innocents but himself. Great, responsibility and with the type of "I take all of the brunt" attitude.
This is what should be seen in the Realms, heroes who have loneliness as their friends, righteous and responsible, fight and die alone and not having any personal desires makes the hero even more formidable and less vulnerable to attack as well as worthy of being immortalized in bard's tales and legends. Good, no reliance on magic nor weapons but inner qualities and inner traits. Great suggestion, Halcyon. |
Edited by - silvermage on 24 Mar 2006 12:49:26 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 12:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon
Why not ressurected heroes? why not from another time? why not outcasts? Such ideas should be examined for potential, not simpy rejected just because they are far fetched or too much. To me, writing needs a lot of imagination, and it is always new ideas, new imaginative ideas that winds the reader.
I never said such things should not be used in novels. My point was that if you are looking to create a unique background for a hero, these things are *not* unique backgrounds. They are in fact backgrounds that have been used in dozens if not hundreds of past novels. In other words, they are all *old* ideas, not new ones.
I mean, "hero from another time" is one of the oldest fantasy ideas in existence. Ever heard of a fellow called "King Arthur" and his (yet to be fulfilled) post death destiny, for instance? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 14:32:23
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Originally posted by Kajehase
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originally posted by Winterfox
For that matter, most fantasy bildungsromans bore me, since they almost inavriably feature teenage characters who wallow in petty, self-indulgent angst ("nobody understands me, me, MEEEE" and "the world revolves around me, all woes are caused by me, me, MEEE" -- hi, Drizzt)
In all fairness sake, that does sound like pretty good description of most adolescents going through the height of puberty.
Yes, and I would rather not read about them, especially when it's done while the author's deluded into thinking that this makes the character complex, unique, or interesting. That's why I find the notion that Drizzt is anything more than a self-pitying emo kid laughable.
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Originally posted by silvermage
Didn't some of the Companions went near to the edge of death such as in the case of Bruenor, weren't their resolve, patience, hope tested to the extreme? Such as during the orc-dwarf war in the HBT. Even Drizzt turned into a single-minded killing machine, this are excellent portrayals of real-life situations and of the things that people will do when thrown into such situations. Wasn't wulfgar spirit broken? He was left half the man he was after the stay from the Abyss and an common example of someone who suffered and content to stay in their pathetic state.
How about... no. No to all of that. Why? Because at the end of every book -- or trilogy, or series -- everything is restored to the way it was before. A bit like a cartoon series where, at the end of the episode, everything's reset. (Come to think of it, the villains have this "baddie of the week" flavor, too.) What extreme? Please. They're so secure in a protective bubble it's contemptible.
If you want real spirit-breaking and pain, try GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire or Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen. Where people, you know, die and don't come back; where spirits are actually broken and never get healed; where very bad things happen to good people.
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I did not mean "orphaned" heroes, but example such as heroes who come from famous evil organizations and labeled as outcasts for their sudden righteousness, heroes seized from time past or freed from their eternal prisons and thrown into the present for some impossible job that they only can do, heroes or villain "converts" ressurected from the grave or from their prison for some purpose (not Flar, Flar role in the Last Mythal seemed quite minor), it is just that we wish to see heroes from interesting and unique backgrounds.
Yeah, but you said you wanted "green" heroes. Dorn's about as green as a dead leaf in autumn -- by the time the trilogy starts, he's already an experienced dragon slayer. As for Fflar -- well, he's got no personality, so he doesn't count either way.
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Wouldn't it be a good change from the usual villains we see everyday, something like Countess Sarya whose origins suddenly baffles everyone and goes on a rampage. I mean using ancient powerful evils of unknown origins and no records on them, the heroes are forced and tested on their creativity, imaginativty, adpatability and ingenuity to fight the evil with nothing, no information on the enemy they are fighting and not relying on some sage's advice or weapons guranteed to harm the foe, but rather fighting the evil with faith, hope, courage and flexibility. Whereby we don't want to see like the Chosen one shot kill the enemy with silverfire-gurantees a kill, rather we would want to see heroes fighting with all their hearts and souls to beat down the evil. This is what I and my friends would like to see.
Sure it's a "good change." If you have just started to read fantasy. Try reading things outside of FR, and you'll see what I mean. This setup is so dime a dozen it's not even funny. Oh, look, it's Ancient Dark Lord of Death and Destruction #456,999,888,023. Yawn. You keep saying you want something unconventional, but sorry, how much more conventional can we get than what you've described?
The kind of heroes I want to see? I want people who are not zomg!speshul -- no people with heritage so unique they're the "last one" of their race or the only hybrid of certain bloodlines ever. They should have a presence based on the merit of their personality and deeds. They don't have to be the bestestest ever, and what they are sent to do shouldn't only be feasible when they do it. Power shouldn't come without a price, and when I say price I mean price that lasts and is permanent. If it means you have to shorten your life by a few decades, your youth shouldn't suddenly be restored at the end (hi, Cadderly!) because it cheapens the sacrifice. If they have to make a difficult decision weighing, oh, the greater good versus a loved one, and chooses the greater good, they shouldn't be rewarded by having the loved one returned to them. Because that's cheap and lazy.
They shouldn't be perfect people. They should have flaws -- selfish desires, indesiciveness, and they can make bad decisions that result in genuine tragedy. (Before you ask, no, I don't consider a single thing in Drizzt novels a tragedy. Ellifain? Oh, please. She's just one more plot device for Drizzt to wangst over, not a real character, and when she appears again as a spirit to tell him all is well? Hahahaha.) If they are hated, it should be with a good reason, not for something they have no control over. "Zomg nobody understands me and they're all prejudiced against me because my race" is as trite as it is old and tired, and the same goes for "zomg my dad hates me because my mom died in childbirth; waaah, I killed mommy"; these things aren't what a character can decide. Let people loathe and be angry at him for something he's done wrong. Or, heck, he can be disliked for a personality deficiency. Spending most of his days moping and feeling guilty shouldn't elicit sympathy all the time; sooner or later, someone's going to run out of patience and slap him hard because, for the love of all things holy, can he please grow up and move on? People who hate the hero just because they're "jealous" are right out, because that's a pathetic way to make the "hero" look better.
Furthermore, the character shouldn't be an author's darling. She shouldn't always be treated like a goddess by everybody. Not everyone should melt into a puddle of pink goo at the sight of her or her saintliness. She shouldn't get to do all the cool things and speak all the cool lines, either, and most importantly, other characters should exist on their own rather than as yes-men to inflate her ego, praise her deeds, or moon over her like lovesick idiots. Some subplots should occur with or without her, and it should be made clear the world doesn't revolve around her. And it's perfectly fine for her to be mediocre or downright godawful with a given skill, especially if the skill's crucial to the situation at hand.
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Originally posted by TymoraChosen
I must, seriously must applaud Silvermage's courage in expressing what a number of realms fans are having on their minds, including myself and my friends. Thank you, Silvermage.
Why does it take courage...? You make it sound as if he'd just spoken out against the Big Brother or something.
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Also, to glorify the hero and make the hero something more than life and near "3-D", the heroes should not be fighting conventional and established villains, I should see the heroes fight enemies like the Dragon King-an unknown entity from unknown realm with unknown powers and this is a excellent villain to exploit and with vast potential to use as a great villain. In the meantime, the heroes should be acting like novices in the face of the enemy who acts as if "omnipotent" temporaily against the heroes, letting the heroes be thrown into situations they think they can't win but of course, I don't want to see them say "retreat and fight another day or surrender", no ,I want to see heroes throwing up a defiant front in face of the enemy, display the no-die spirit and using faith, will, witty minds and not weapons or magic (magic and weapons too commonly seen in heroes) to deal with the enemy, for this will lead to the heroes using unconventional means to fight the enemy as they improvise their tactics. Creative ways of fighting foes tend to draw attention and impress the reader on the heroes.
You baffle me; are you under the impression that these things are uncommon? If you want these things so much, then go out and read them -- they're already there. Everywhere. Robert Jordan's Waste of Time, Goodkind's Sword of Truth, Christopher Paolini's Eragon. Go forth and bask in the light of a hundred fantasy cliches, if that's your thing.
I repeat: these are not new ideas. At all. They're as trite and banal as they come. They can be done well, but nine times out of ten, they aren't.
Halcyon said:
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I and some of my friends who had been reading the realm novels for a very long time also think that we should see some heroes dying as martyrs in the beginning like Azoun IV dying as a martyr, then from there, it would be good to see the hero's child like Azoun V rising as the next potential hero of the realms and "stand aside Vangerdahast, let the newbies fight" whereby Azoun V rises as the next savior of Cormyr where he beats down a monster enemy, route invading hordes with his smart mind and not using armies to fight but I would like to see heroes with an excellent sense of integrity and with a spirit of self-denial(that is not surrendering to the base desires of oneself but fighting it)
Isn't that kind of stupid? Why the hell would you send an inexperienced prince to fight when there's a powerful archmage or two at hand to do the job? Is the country so eager to get rid of its monarchy or something?
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Such as the hero's son like Azoun V fighting his inner desires and denying them, refusing to look at beautiful ladies for more than a minute and concentrating on fighting the foe and not distracted by his inner desires-like I refuse beautiful women no matter how beautiful they are and I won't look at them not even for a minute and I reject their advances no matter what happens, I refuse wine as it makes me lose control of myself and dulls my instincts, I refuse gambling as gambling is evil and etc. because it contaminates my being and clouds my mind and stops me from focusing on the task. This is what I expect from a true and great hero.
What the hell for? Why on god's green earth would he suddenly behave like a Catholic monk? The last Azoun was a lech, and so's his daughter Alusair. Clearly, in Cormyr, the king's not expected to be particularly faithful to his wife, and the princess isn't expected to be proper and monogamous. You're trying to apply Earth morals where it's not applicable.
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By combining all the mentioned three as well as the hero refusal to fall for his carnal and base desires, this would make the hero real-life and appealing and make him worthy of the reader's respect and worthy of the name "hero".
It would bore me stiff and make me dismiss the novel as written by someone who's stuck in the eighties. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 24 Mar 2006 18:21:07 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 14:35:59
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I have to say, I'm kind of surprised by some of these responses. When "out of the ordinary heroes" become the trend, don't they become ordinary?
Seriously, when was the last time you read a realms novel with a Paladin as a protagonist? So, a simple paladin, which it seems many here would call typical or cliche is in fact just the opposite.
Hate to throw in game mechanic terms when disussing novels but I would love to see a story about an adventuring party without a single ECL race. I also don't like how it seems all characters have to have some sort of dark/sinister past. I would like to see a story about a protagonist that was genuinely a good person from a standard race and doesn't need any flashy abilities for reader shock value.
This may be better said in the villains thread but, I would also like to see stories about protagonists that aren't out to save the world. When every villain is hatching some plot to destroy/take over the world it tends to desensitize us to "smaller" problems.
And also...
Let me just say for the record: Winterfox, I thoroughly look forward to reading your posts. I often find myself reading a post where a fellow scribe writes something that I find...disagreeable, and I think to myself, "oh wow, I can't wait to see what Winterfox has to say to this guy". You have such a colorful way of letting people know their ideas are, let's say not agreed upon by everyone.
But to add more to this post with some on-topic discussion. In her last post Winterfox mentioned A Song of Ice and Fire. I agree with her point about characters who have suffered real loss and would like to add that the "heroes" in that series are exactly what I would like to see in a realms novel, or any fantasy novel for that matter. The reason I put quotes around heroes is becuase, there really are no heroes and villains. Sure they're are a couple of people who are generally good people (Jon Snow) and some people that are very bad people (Cersei) but for the most part there is no good guys and bad guys. Each group thinks they are doing what is best for their family, country, or local region.
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Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 24 Mar 2006 14:51:14 |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 15:43:13
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I am not sure I want to see a great trend of Drizzt/RAS type characters. They are every bit as invulnerable as the seven sisters and Elminster. The main difference between Greenwood's characters and RAS's is that Greenwood likes to make uber powerful magic users whereas RAS uses uber powerful melee types. I am not trying to say that I did not enjoy novels by either author but I am just expresses how I feel that the more the write the more they recycle the same sort of characters.
RAS's characters all have some immensely powerful weapons. Drizzt has Guen, two powerful swords, bracers of speed...Wulfgar has a powerful hamemr that returns to him when he calls for it, CB had heartseeker and the sentient sword, Artemis has the life stealing dagger as well as Charon's claw, Jarlaxle has one of everything, in promise of the witch king the dwarf had some really powerful morning stars and the list just goes on. None of his characters ever die either and that gets old quick. He tricked me with Wulfgar but after that I did not fall for it twice.
Some of my favorite characters were Alias, Dragonbait and the Wyvernspurs (see the Finder's stone trilogy). I felt some of them were unique and in unique situations. But I don't necessarily agree that every protag has to be a unqiue character in a unqiue situation but most of the time that is the type that will stay with you i suppose.
I forget who posted it but I have long been thinking that we need some gnomes!
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 16:51:09
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| Beezy, Catty-Brie (and why would anyone want to be named after a cheese???) lost that sword, maybe it will be Obould wielding it soon... oops...er...maybe a spoiler for some stilll...err...sorry |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 18:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Let me just say for the record: Winterfox, I thoroughly look forward to reading your posts. I often find myself reading a post where a fellow scribe writes something that I find...disagreeable, and I think to myself, "oh wow, I can't wait to see what Winterfox has to say to this guy". You have such a colorful way of letting people know their ideas are, let's say not agreed upon by everyone.
Why, thank you. It's nice to be appreciated. ;)
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But to add more to this post with some on-topic discussion. In her last post Winterfox mentioned A Song of Ice and Fire. I agree with her point about characters who have suffered real loss and would like to add that the "heroes" in that series are exactly what I would like to see in a realms novel, or any fantasy novel for that matter. The reason I put quotes around heroes is becuase, there really are no heroes and villains. Sure they're are a couple of people who are generally good people (Jon Snow) and some people that are very bad people (Cersei) but for the most part there is no good guys and bad guys. Each group thinks they are doing what is best for their family, country, or local region.
Yes. A thousand times, yes, especially to the "no heroes and no villains" approach, just people who believe in different things and whose beliefs happen not to jibe with one another's. It pulls characters out of the "Chosen One," "Designated Love Interest," "Funy Sidekick" or "SPESHUL HERO" boxes, and throws them all into one single big one that's labeled "Real People." |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 18:26:05
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I point out that the Realms often has a lot of the weird for the weird sake. For me, the Stone Giant character in Return of the Archwizards was an example of that and I just didn't like the character. Alias' bizarre origins in the storyline were something that were a major plotline and aspect that was fully explored to her character.
I'm going to upfront say Winterfox that I utterly disagree with his sentiments regarding Drizzt and company. Their adventures are meant to be episodic and you don't need them to change the core of the characters much over time. I certainly don't expect them to kill a member of the party every other time and R.A. Salvatore was actually fairly brutal in killing secondary characters. I don't read adventure novels to watch my heroes being killed after all.
If there was a problem with the Orc Trilogy, it was the fact that it was nothing more than a 3 book advertisement for the change to the Icewind Dale region. Nothing Drizzt and company did changed anything that was going on there.
1. Tie the characters to a part of the Realms
Danillo Thann isn't just a bard and a Harper, he's also Khelben's grandson. This allowed some soft scenes between him and the Archwizard. I wouldn't mind some similiar ties to major players and thought Allusair should have had her own book successful series really.
2. Keep a firm and consistent view of their skills
I don't mind that Drizzt is THE BEST swordsman in the entire Realms. The irony of course being that his stats don't reflect this yet there's supposedly plenty better. Instead, an author should however make it clear what sort of characters are better than the player in their chosen field and by how much.
I don't mind characters at the top of their fields but at least we need to know who can challenge them.
3. Give them a reason to adventure
For me, I think that there's some classic story arcs in the Realms. Elminster and Drizzt both had very powerful (if perhaps overused) storylines and I liked the Drow quest because it was based on the orders of higher ups. Being an agent for the King, seeking revenge, all of these things explain why a hero might be doing something. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 24 Mar 2006 18:44:02 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 18:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I'm going to upfront say Winterfox that I utterly disagree with his sentiments regarding Drizzt and company.
Her. :/ Should I register a new account and call myself Wintervixen? (Well, apart from the fact that it sounds like the stage name of a porn starlet.)
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Their adventures are meant to be episodic and you don't need them to change the core of the characters much over time.
I can't help but be dismissive toward characters who don't at all change in a meaningful way, nor suffer meaningful losses, over the course of sixteen books plus many short stories (!). What do you call characters who never develop? I call them stagnant. Dull. Boring. Shallow.
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I certainly don't expect them to kill a member of the party every other time and R.A. Salvatore was actually fairly brutal in killing secondary characters.
I'm not asking for physical deaths. How about significant alterations in their relationships? How about broken friendships that can never be reconciled? Differences of opinions?
As for the secondary characters, I'm pretty sure that most people don't give a flying moose about them anyway. Who cried for Delly's death? For characters who appear for a few pages? Killing them is easy and cheap. Nothing brutal about it, just perfunctory. It doesn't help, of course, that some characters can't be taken seriously to begin with -- the dwarves with their ridiculous names, for example. (I've read on the RAS board that Salvatore has problems coming up with names, but seriously, stringing together random syllables would be better than this.)
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I don't read adventure novels to watch my heroes being killed after all.
Neither do I. I do, however, read books -- regardless of genre -- to see characters develop and grow. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 19:13:47
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Also I have to agree with Winterfox. If a character does not change or grow during the course of a novel, trilogy or series then that can make for some dull characters.
As for the Drizzt series I always, also, found it odd that the core group of campinions managed to fight against terrible odds and foes nonstop but always, not only, come out on top but also they came out nearly unscathed everytime. That is probally the worst run on sentence ever... |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 19:22:01
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Sorry Winterfox, can't believe I made that mistake twice. I'm quite apologetic.
Frankly, its difficult to respond to your post LADY (just to clarify) because I think you causally dismiss a great deal of character development so that your opinion doesn't hold much weight with me regarding so.
Drizzt goes from a brooding and hermit like loner to one whom lives openly amongst his friends, no longer cares for acceptance amongst normal people instead valuing the quality of his companions rather than the many. He has turned fully against his race when he was previously very reluctant to kill them.
His relationship with Cattie has changed from one of a uncle-daughter relationship to one more intimate. While it may have been "broody angst" that drove the whole Ellifaine afair and a chance to torment Drizzt, it was a wonderful idea in my opinion that Drizzt would be blamed for something not his fault and that plotline was a great idea.
As for Wulfgar's return, the character in Spine of the World was disgusting an unlikeable so why exactly isnt his slow recovery to a more likeable individual something that's important? He's still a weird and half-psychotic mess after all distant and brooding so I think that is development.
is it DEEP development? No, but I think of these books like episodes in a television series, the change is there but the core of the formula is kept so it can be enjoyed for its own sake.
And while I admit few people care if Delly dies, Zaknafien's death was one of the great moments of the series I think (both times)
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As for the Drizzt series I always, also, found it odd that the core group of campinions managed to fight against terrible odds and foes nonstop but always, not only, come out on top but also they came out nearly unscathed everytime. That is probally the worst run on sentence ever...
1. R.A. Salvatore actually needs to seriously start restoring decent villains to the story. Pirates? Orcs? A Thieves Guild? These are not exactly epic level threats if you catch my drift. The Drow Invasion, Alkar Kessel, our favorite Balor, and Artemis are the only time they actually face foes worthy of their caliber.
So no, I don't think that the majority of their foes are difficult to believe them triumphing over.
2. Bruenor loses an eye, Bruenor ends up needing a long and painful recovery in Icewind Dale, Wulfgar ends up captured and tortured in the Abyss for six years before becoming a psychological mess, Alustriel nearly dies in the Drow invasion (well we know she wouldnt' REALLY die but it seemed that way when I read it), Cattie Brie was seriously injured in the war as well. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 24 Mar 2006 19:31:36 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 21:12:17
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I will agree to disagree. Unless Salvatore's writing takes a drastic turn of change, I'll still maintain that his characterization is shallow and his plot formulaic, ultimately both ending with equilibrium restored. And I'm not particularly fond of episodic books. If I wanted that, I'd probably be reading Marvel comics. Hell, most of the Japanese manga and anime I consume -- and consider good -- has got better character development and less episode-flavor than that.
To get back on "what I'd like to see," I've got an addendum, which probably doesn't apply to FR novels at all but more to fantasy in general. Protagonists who thrive without being warriors or magic-users. They excel in court and politics; they don't need to lift a finger to cast spells or grip a weapon to show their strength. When a fight occurs, they'd be useless, or at the very least they'd fumble stupidly (if not freeze at the first sign of violence) but they should not be ridiculed or belittled for this by the author (by other characters, that'd be a different matter). There are kinds of strength and competence that have nothing to do with how well one fights with a sword, or how fast one can incinerate an army with a meteor swarm.
A prime example: Phèdre nó Delaunay from Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel trilogy. She's blessed by a god, but the gift simply enables her to feel pain as sexual pleasure (though it makes her more physically resilient -- she recovers from injuries faster. Considering her nature, that's only practical). She survives with wits and charms; she's a professional high-class courtesan/spy who benefits her "owner" by gathering information. There are instances where she faces violence in Kushiel's Dart, and yes, she can't do anything to fight back. And it's perfectly fine, because she's still a unique heroine among hundred thousands of banal "strong female characters" (hi, Danica and Catti-brie!): her lack of martial prowess doesn't diminish her strength of character and intelligence one bit.
Another is Mara fo the Acoma from Janny Wurts' and RE Feist's Empire trilogy. It's been a while since I read those books, but as I recall, Mara never holds a weapon. She survives and thrives in a society where women are seen as inferior with her wit, feminine charms, and charisma. The changes she brings are far-reaching even if she never slays a single monster; she has to learn politics after the deaths of her father and brother, and watching her grow into a shrewd stateswoman was memorable. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 21:30:44
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Except, this is D&D fiction. Forgotten Realms SHOULDN'T be about court politics and the like but it instead should involve large amounts of swordplay and sorcery because that's what Dungeons and Dragons is about.
There's also nothing wrong with episodic I think and one needs to accept elements as what they are rather than simply assuming that they should conform to another taste. One doesn't go reading a Western and thinking it needs more vampires.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 21:34:31
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Uh, yeah. That's why I said it probably doesn't apply to FR novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
There's also nothing wrong with episodic I think and one needs to accept elements as what they are rather than simply assuming that they should conform to another taste. One doesn't go reading a Western and thinking it needs more vampires.
What, I can't complain that something's shallow and predictable, now, because it's meant to be shallow and predictable? Granted, there's a reason I don't read anything by Salvatore anymore, but I'm not sure why I should start reading a FR novel -- or a fantasy novel -- with the expectation that it's going to be shallow and episodic, and if this is the case, then I should suck it up and chalk it up as "elements" of the genre. |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 21:45:08
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I understand a bit of what Charles is saying in that, "D&D novels are hamburgers, so don't expect filet mignon," but that doesn't mean it has be be mindless. I'm not expecting John LeCarre, but there's nothing wrong with something more cerebral now and then.
You don't always have to get McDonald's hamburgers. Sometimes, you can go to Fuddrucker's too. Or, in Ed's case, Hooters.
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Edited by - GungHo on 24 Mar 2006 21:46:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 22:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Another is Mara fo the Acoma from Janny Wurts' and RE Feist's Empire trilogy. It's been a while since I read those books, but as I recall, Mara never holds a weapon. She survives and thrives in a society where women are seen as inferior with her wit, feminine charms, and charisma. The changes she brings are far-reaching even if she never slays a single monster; she has to learn politics after the deaths of her father and brother, and watching her grow into a shrewd stateswoman was memorable.
I think she did hold weapons a couple of times, but I don't recall her actually wielding them.
Mara of the Acoma is perhaps one of the best-written characters out there, IMO. I'm a huge fan of Feist's work, and watching Mara's political progression from the start of the first book until the end of the third is simply incredible. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 22:22:45
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Yeah, honestly I don't think that's its necessarily a bad thing to want D&D novels to serve as the fast food of fantasy. A lot of times I just want something to read and its why in high school I loved the 50 odd Dragonlance novels because whenever I finished one there was always another to read.
Like action films, I may go see one when I might not go see a better movie because I don't want to be "moved."
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
