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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  21:12:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

I think it would be interesting to have yak-folk and minotaurs interact... like a community of taurens (no reference to Warcraft intended). it would be similar to elves and humans living together.



Aren't the yak-folk more of Kara-Tur? I don't know of too many of them in Faerūn... And without some seriously common background, I don't know that they and the minotaurs would want to have any interaction...

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Beirnadri Magranth
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  22:10:42  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage  Send Beirnadri Magranth an AOL message Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well I dontknow whatmakes you say they aremore a part of Karatur but they have a racial similarity to minotaurs which means that they would be more willing to work together... just like elves and humans etc.

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Kuje
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  22:19:03  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

I think it would be interesting to have yak-folk and minotaurs interact... like a community of taurens (no reference to Warcraft intended). it would be similar to elves and humans living together.



Aren't the yak-folk more of Kara-Tur? I don't know of too many of them in Faerūn... And without some seriously common background, I don't know that they and the minotaurs would want to have any interaction...



Actually, they mostly come from Zakhara. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Beirnadri Magranth
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  22:28:25  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage  Send Beirnadri Magranth an AOL message Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
how do you know that kuje? i dont haev the tome with me so i dont know if theres a sidebar or something that says that.

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KnightErrantJR
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  22:39:56  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.

Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 23 Feb 2006 22:40:44
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  22:45:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

well I dontknow whatmakes you say they aremore a part of Karatur but they have a racial similarity to minotaurs which means that they would be more willing to work together... just like elves and humans etc.



I don't see a superficial racial similarity meaning that the two races would get along. Even in the Realms, not all groups of humans get along... And you could also say that orcs and humans have a racial similarity, especially since it's close enough for them to interbreed. But orcs and humans, for the most part, are most unwilling to work together.

So I don't see this bunch of evil humanoids from Zakhara and minotaurs in Faerūn as being allies any time soon.

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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  00:43:09  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.

Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.

Indeed, that is correct.

"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.

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Beirnadri Magranth
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  01:43:58  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage  Send Beirnadri Magranth an AOL message Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.

Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.

Indeed, that is correct.

"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.



just threw it out there
haha

"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."

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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  04:40:18  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.

Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.

Indeed, that is correct.

"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.



just threw it out there
haha

Aye...

If you want yakmen/folk in Kara-Tur, you can borrow from their entry in MMII. As I recall, the yak-folk described therein had slight "oriental" stylings added to them.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  15:51:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know... Talking about minotaur culture is, once again, going to bring up the issue of deities...

I was just thinking... What if our neutral minotaurs, fleeing from the collapse of their kingdom, were lead by a particularly charismatic and noble minotaur? He was the one who led them to their new home, he held them together in the process, and was their first (and possibly greatest) ruler. He did so much for his people that by the time of his death, he was considered to be nearly a deity by him.

When he did die, his own deity (not sure who that would be) helped elevate him to godhood. Our minotaur god would be either a demipower or a lesser power, depending on the size of the kingdom of minotaurs.

I'm not sure who his patron deity would have been... But I see the minotaur deity as being either NG or one of the neutral alignments. It's iffy on whether or not he would be lawful -- if he led his people from one kingdom to conquer another, it's not exactly lawful. I don't see chaotic neutral, either... So true neutral or neutral good are the alignments I see (notation: NG is my fave alignment, so I could be biased).

As for portfolios, I think he'd have minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence. Of course, this would mean that while they were willing to share power with other races, they'd make sure that minotaurs were always answerable to minotaurs, frst and foremost.

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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  16:09:58  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know... Talking about minotaur culture is, once again, going to bring up the issue of deities...
As it should .

quote:
I was just thinking... What if our neutral minotaurs, fleeing from the collapse of their kingdom, were lead by a particularly charismatic and noble minotaur? He was the one who led them to their new home, he held them together in the process, and was their first (and possibly greatest) ruler. He did so much for his people that by the time of his death, he was considered to be nearly a deity by him.
Like hero-worship, that slowly evolves into a kind of divine worship. I like it.

Perhaps his own deity had already started supporting (whether by actual divine imbuement or something else entirely) the actions of this minotaur ruler... for the benefit of all minotaurs in the Realms. Not so much as making him a "Chosen" or "Divine Champion" -- but something greater than a high-priest -- but less than a Chosen.

quote:
When he did die, his own deity (not sure who that would be) helped elevate him to godhood. Our minotaur god would be either a demipower or a lesser power, depending on the size of the kingdom of minotaurs.
A demipower I think would be more appropriate... as a step up from the position I outlined above.

quote:
I'm not sure who his patron deity would have been... But I see the minotaur deity as being either NG or one of the neutral alignments. It's iffy on whether or not he would be lawful -- if he led his people from one kingdom to conquer another, it's not exactly lawful. I don't see chaotic neutral, either... So true neutral or neutral good are the alignments I see (notation: NG is my fave alignment, so I could be biased).
Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.

quote:
As for portfolios, I think he'd have minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence. Of course, this would mean that while they were willing to share power with other races, they'd make sure that minotaurs were always answerable to minotaurs, frst and foremost.
Self-rule and independence can probably go together -- as one.

I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.

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WalkerNinja
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  16:54:25  Show Profile Send WalkerNinja a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a great discussion! However, I've noticed that everyone seems to have a pretty pre-concieved idea of how Minotaurs look, and how they would act. I'd like to put a bit of a different perspective on things.

The typical minotaur that we think of is generally defined by the classic greek myths. I contend however, that this image that we conjure must be taken in its proper perspective.

There are variant types of bovine sub-races (game terminology) all across the world that are specifically adapted to their surroundings. It seems that most are placing their minotaur cultures in the North, and to me that would tend to suggest the use of a more northern european sub-type; a somewhat smaller, but long-haired cow. A minotaur culture that exists in a badlands area, would tend to look quite a bit different since it has specifically adapted for that environment (perhaps more closely resembling a Texas Longhorn). Underdark minotaurs (from this perspective) would more closely resemble Rothe', and our standard minotaur (and likely where the minotaur myths of most of Faerun originated) would find its home in Chessenta (which of course is a Faerunian-Greek Analogue).

The deity question is a good one, but perhaps there are some other questions that are important to ask first. Why are they so reclusive (they're not mentioned often in realmslore or canon)? Why are they generally viewed as monsters, or in the employ of evil men? Would these different minotaur sub-races have developed differently on a cultural axis as well? Do they value different things? The assumption seems to be that they are cave-dwellers, or denizens of their own cities, but couldn't they be nomadic?

oops! my 2 cents have expired... better go now.

-Walker

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Edited by - WalkerNinja on 24 Feb 2006 16:56:28
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ShadowJack
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  17:02:53  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly,

On my way to work this morning I was thinking the same thing. A great minotaur hero, (seeing the depletion of his people by the giants using them as shock troops in their battles) gathers his tribe/clan/herd/group together and starts a rebellion to escape, other groups join him, it is going badly for them until they stumble across a portal that they escape through, dumping them in an old (Sarruhk?) ruin on the south shore of the Lake of Steam. (West of the Qurth Forest) I also thought of this heroes alignment being NG. They found this site defensible and started their own city...

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  18:24:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That concept works for me.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  18:32:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Like hero-worship, that slowly evolves into a kind of divine worship. I like it.

Perhaps his own deity had already started supporting (whether by actual divine imbuement or something else entirely) the actions of this minotaur ruler... for the benefit of all minotaurs in the Realms. Not so much as making him a "Chosen" or "Divine Champion" -- but something greater than a high-priest -- but less than a Chosen.


Hey, that's a pretty good idea!

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

A demipower I think would be more appropriate... as a step up from the position I outlined above.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. While a lesser power is possible, it's kinda pushing it.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.


But I do see minotaurs has having something of an orderly leaning -- that's why I was more inclined to favor TN or NG.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Self-rule and independence can probably go together -- as one.


Yeah, I can see that.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.


A very good point. I should like to point out, though, that in my mind, strategy would also back up the orderly thing I mentioned above.

What about the original deific patron, that helped our hero? And would our ascended hero be a servant (like Velsharoon served Talos) or an ally (like Finder and Tymora)? I favor the latter option, since we're talking about a racial deity.

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KnightErrantJR
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  18:37:47  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders with blunt objects, but everytime brainstorming goes along these lines, my mind starts drifting to Kaz in DragonLance, which is, by way of vicious circle, why official canon most likely steers (wow, I could make a really bad pun here) clear of minotaur culture, rather than just the basics.

I like Walker's point. Differnt minotaurs in different regions likely look a bit differently, though I would stop short of calling them sub races, since I wouldn't make their actual game stats any different. The long haired minotaurs that the 3.5 MM shows isn't what I originally though of about minotaurs, and this kind of proves the point. Shaggy minotaurs with hunched shoulders could represent the slightly more Rothe like Underdark minotaurs, while the short haired "traditional" minotaurs would likely be what is seen in southlands.

Then again, this all spurs from what you think the minotaur's genesis point is. I think I may have a theory, but its just my idea.


http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/legends.htm#minotaur

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  19:02:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Then again, this all spurs from what you think the minotaur's genesis point is. I think I may have a theory, but its just my idea.


http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/legends.htm#minotaur



I've always hated the cursed origin idea for minotaurs... Heck, the mythological minotaur was the son of a god, not a cursed human. I would far prefer some origin myth that didn't have minotaurs being the result of a curse. Perhaps they were worshippers of some bull-headed ancient deity, who blessed his people by giving them his appearance...

Anyway, while the origin of minotaurs is an interesting topic, I think it deserves a scroll of its own.

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ShadowJack
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Posted - 24 Feb 2006 :  23:47:32  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, I just wanted to dicuss minotaur clans in the realms... This is great! I love the idea of a hero worshipping town/city of minotaurs... Perhaps the original minotaur hero was a follower of an early form/aspect of Tempus (or Helm, guardian aspect?)...

As for their origins, lets just skirt that issue... After all, many of the Realms inhabitants are transplants from other planes/prime material lands... I would like to avoid any inclination of an evil origin...
Walker, I agree with you that the issue of their reclusiveness needs to be addressed. I was thinking of explaining it by a cultural/social taboo given them by their Hero/demi-god to avoid entangling themselves in the affairs of other races, so as not to draw the attention of the giants they were once forced to serve... (this is a little weak)
I like the idea brought up by Walker of the different types of bovines from different areas. This could be interesting. The Lake of Steam Minotaurs, whenever they come into contact with these other breeds/types, especially if slaves, do their best to free them from their bondage and transplant them back to the Lake of Steam city... This could be one reason for the city (Minotopia? sorry, had to be said... talk about bad names or puns) becoming more well known, the population has increased due to natural births and transplanting other minotaurs from across Faerun. This increase has put pressure on the Herd Elders (sorry) to find a release for the excess young bulls (hot bloods). Namely, hire them out as mercenaries, but only under the immediate control of minotaur commanders...

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The Sage
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Posted - 25 Feb 2006 :  01:11:36  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.


But I do see minotaurs has having something of an orderly leaning -- that's why I was more inclined to favor TN or NG.
Either way is good for me. I think the TN is slightly more difficult to accept than NG though by virtue of the fact that the minotaurs have actively moved to pursue their own destiny rather than just following "the winds of fate" for example -- which is what a truly neutral position would seem to suggest.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.


A very good point. I should like to point out, though, that in my mind, strategy would also back up the orderly thing I mentioned above.
Aye... I can see that. Hmmmm... that works with bringing both war and battle to a slightly more "good-aligned" positioned and takes away some of the negative themes I mentioned earlier about what people thinking minotaurs are essentially warlike.

If we use NG/CG as the minotaurs alignment... we shouldn't have a problem promoting the war and battle aspects of the deity as inherently good.

quote:
What about the original deific patron, that helped our hero? And would our ascended hero be a servant (like Velsharoon served Talos) or an ally (like Finder and Tymora)? I favor the latter option, since we're talking about a racial deity.
Maybe a servant first, and then, as his position and prominence among the minotaurs grew... it become something else, an actual ally of the patron god. This would demonstrate the strength of belief in the patron and could later add that strength of faith to the "champion" when he also ascends.

I still have no idea about "who" this actual patron god is though.

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The Sage
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Posted - 25 Feb 2006 :  01:21:27  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack

Wow, I just wanted to dicuss minotaur clans in the realms... This is great! I love the idea of a hero worshipping town/city of minotaurs... Perhaps the original minotaur hero was a follower of an early form/aspect of Tempus (or Helm, guardian aspect?)...
Hmmm... that is interesting.

I think the CN of Tempus though is perhaps not the way to go here. We know the clergy of Tempus allows for both NG/CG alignments, as has been discussed here previously for the minotaur people... but the faith of Tempus can seem highly chaotic at times. If we still want the minotaurs to remain orderly, at the very least, I'd go with another god -- Torm or Helm for example.

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ShadowJack
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Posted - 25 Feb 2006 :  16:44:19  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most Highly esteemed Sage,

I was thinking of Torm, but was not sure how long he (or Helm, for that matter) has been in the Realms... I assume that the giant kingdoms were fairly ancient, I have yet to check that out... Serpent Kingdoms has a pretty good timeline for the ancient civilizations. Torm would better represent our Minotaur Hero's desire to protect and provide a better way of life for his people.

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The Sage
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Posted - 26 Feb 2006 :  00:58:05  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.

The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.

It may be better working with giant deity at first...

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Edited by - The Sage on 26 Feb 2006 00:59:08
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KnightErrantJR
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USA
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Posted - 26 Feb 2006 :  02:41:04  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hm . . . well, if at first you don't succeed . . . how about this for an origin?



http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6227



2 electrum pieces to anyone that knows what my initial inspriration for the Magus-Progenetor was.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Feb 2006 :  05:38:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.

The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.

It may be better working with giant deity at first...




You're likely correct on that one... It could still be a deity who has since died/left the Realms, too.

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Lady Kazandra
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Australia
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Posted - 26 Feb 2006 :  08:06:07  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.

The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.

It may be better working with giant deity at first...




You're likely correct on that one... It could still be a deity who has since died/left the Realms, too.

Yeah, the Sage is on the mark as usual.

Looking over the entries in both Giantcraft and Serpent Kingdoms - - there's really no way the minotaur civilisation could have been worshipping Torm.

Perhaps, in an effort to determine who the patron god is, you should determine when exactly these minotaur refugees left the collapsing giant empire and made their way to the city they will conquer and make their own. At least that way you'll have a suitable period of Forgotten Realms history to work around.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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