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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 22:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
well I dontknow whatmakes you say they aremore a part of Karatur but they have a racial similarity to minotaurs which means that they would be more willing to work together... just like elves and humans etc.
I don't see a superficial racial similarity meaning that the two races would get along. Even in the Realms, not all groups of humans get along... And you could also say that orcs and humans have a racial similarity, especially since it's close enough for them to interbreed. But orcs and humans, for the most part, are most unwilling to work together.
So I don't see this bunch of evil humanoids from Zakhara and minotaurs in Faerūn as being allies any time soon. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 00:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.
Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore. 
Indeed, that is correct.
"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 01:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.
Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.
Indeed, that is correct.
"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.
 just threw it out there
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 04:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Because before the "folk" conversion from the term man happened, Yak-men were evil inhabitants of Zhakara. I forget specific details, but Wolfgang Baur wrote an article on them back in the 2nd edition days in a Zhakara article.
Of course this is only supposition, but I know Kuje is well versed in 2nd edition lore.
Indeed, that is correct.
"Lands of the Yak-Men" by Wolfgang Baur in DRAGON #241 explored the nature of the yak-men in the Al-Qadim setting.
just threw it out there
haha
Aye...
If you want yakmen/folk in Kara-Tur, you can borrow from their entry in MMII. As I recall, the yak-folk described therein had slight "oriental" stylings added to them.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 15:51:06
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You know... Talking about minotaur culture is, once again, going to bring up the issue of deities...
I was just thinking... What if our neutral minotaurs, fleeing from the collapse of their kingdom, were lead by a particularly charismatic and noble minotaur? He was the one who led them to their new home, he held them together in the process, and was their first (and possibly greatest) ruler. He did so much for his people that by the time of his death, he was considered to be nearly a deity by him.
When he did die, his own deity (not sure who that would be) helped elevate him to godhood. Our minotaur god would be either a demipower or a lesser power, depending on the size of the kingdom of minotaurs.
I'm not sure who his patron deity would have been... But I see the minotaur deity as being either NG or one of the neutral alignments. It's iffy on whether or not he would be lawful -- if he led his people from one kingdom to conquer another, it's not exactly lawful. I don't see chaotic neutral, either... So true neutral or neutral good are the alignments I see (notation: NG is my fave alignment, so I could be biased).
As for portfolios, I think he'd have minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence. Of course, this would mean that while they were willing to share power with other races, they'd make sure that minotaurs were always answerable to minotaurs, frst and foremost. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know... Talking about minotaur culture is, once again, going to bring up the issue of deities...
As it should  .
quote:
I was just thinking... What if our neutral minotaurs, fleeing from the collapse of their kingdom, were lead by a particularly charismatic and noble minotaur? He was the one who led them to their new home, he held them together in the process, and was their first (and possibly greatest) ruler. He did so much for his people that by the time of his death, he was considered to be nearly a deity by him.
Like hero-worship, that slowly evolves into a kind of divine worship. I like it.
Perhaps his own deity had already started supporting (whether by actual divine imbuement or something else entirely) the actions of this minotaur ruler... for the benefit of all minotaurs in the Realms. Not so much as making him a "Chosen" or "Divine Champion" -- but something greater than a high-priest -- but less than a Chosen.
quote:
When he did die, his own deity (not sure who that would be) helped elevate him to godhood. Our minotaur god would be either a demipower or a lesser power, depending on the size of the kingdom of minotaurs.
A demipower I think would be more appropriate... as a step up from the position I outlined above.
quote:
I'm not sure who his patron deity would have been... But I see the minotaur deity as being either NG or one of the neutral alignments. It's iffy on whether or not he would be lawful -- if he led his people from one kingdom to conquer another, it's not exactly lawful. I don't see chaotic neutral, either... So true neutral or neutral good are the alignments I see (notation: NG is my fave alignment, so I could be biased).
Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.
quote:
As for portfolios, I think he'd have minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence. Of course, this would mean that while they were willing to share power with other races, they'd make sure that minotaurs were always answerable to minotaurs, frst and foremost.
Self-rule and independence can probably go together -- as one.
I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:54:25
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This is a great discussion! However, I've noticed that everyone seems to have a pretty pre-concieved idea of how Minotaurs look, and how they would act. I'd like to put a bit of a different perspective on things.
The typical minotaur that we think of is generally defined by the classic greek myths. I contend however, that this image that we conjure must be taken in its proper perspective.
There are variant types of bovine sub-races (game terminology) all across the world that are specifically adapted to their surroundings. It seems that most are placing their minotaur cultures in the North, and to me that would tend to suggest the use of a more northern european sub-type; a somewhat smaller, but long-haired cow. A minotaur culture that exists in a badlands area, would tend to look quite a bit different since it has specifically adapted for that environment (perhaps more closely resembling a Texas Longhorn). Underdark minotaurs (from this perspective) would more closely resemble Rothe', and our standard minotaur (and likely where the minotaur myths of most of Faerun originated) would find its home in Chessenta (which of course is a Faerunian-Greek Analogue).
The deity question is a good one, but perhaps there are some other questions that are important to ask first. Why are they so reclusive (they're not mentioned often in realmslore or canon)? Why are they generally viewed as monsters, or in the employ of evil men? Would these different minotaur sub-races have developed differently on a cultural axis as well? Do they value different things? The assumption seems to be that they are cave-dwellers, or denizens of their own cities, but couldn't they be nomadic?
oops! my 2 cents have expired... better go now.
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
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Edited by - WalkerNinja on 24 Feb 2006 16:56:28 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 17:02:53
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Wooly,
On my way to work this morning I was thinking the same thing. A great minotaur hero, (seeing the depletion of his people by the giants using them as shock troops in their battles) gathers his tribe/clan/herd/group together and starts a rebellion to escape, other groups join him, it is going badly for them until they stumble across a portal that they escape through, dumping them in an old (Sarruhk?) ruin on the south shore of the Lake of Steam. (West of the Qurth Forest) I also thought of this heroes alignment being NG. They found this site defensible and started their own city... |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Like hero-worship, that slowly evolves into a kind of divine worship. I like it.
Perhaps his own deity had already started supporting (whether by actual divine imbuement or something else entirely) the actions of this minotaur ruler... for the benefit of all minotaurs in the Realms. Not so much as making him a "Chosen" or "Divine Champion" -- but something greater than a high-priest -- but less than a Chosen.
Hey, that's a pretty good idea!
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
A demipower I think would be more appropriate... as a step up from the position I outlined above.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. While a lesser power is possible, it's kinda pushing it.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.
But I do see minotaurs has having something of an orderly leaning -- that's why I was more inclined to favor TN or NG.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Self-rule and independence can probably go together -- as one.
Yeah, I can see that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.
A very good point. I should like to point out, though, that in my mind, strategy would also back up the orderly thing I mentioned above.
What about the original deific patron, that helped our hero? And would our ascended hero be a servant (like Velsharoon served Talos) or an ally (like Finder and Tymora)? I favor the latter option, since we're talking about a racial deity. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:37:47
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Feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders with blunt objects, but everytime brainstorming goes along these lines, my mind starts drifting to Kaz in DragonLance, which is, by way of vicious circle, why official canon most likely steers (wow, I could make a really bad pun here) clear of minotaur culture, rather than just the basics.
I like Walker's point. Differnt minotaurs in different regions likely look a bit differently, though I would stop short of calling them sub races, since I wouldn't make their actual game stats any different. The long haired minotaurs that the 3.5 MM shows isn't what I originally though of about minotaurs, and this kind of proves the point. Shaggy minotaurs with hunched shoulders could represent the slightly more Rothe like Underdark minotaurs, while the short haired "traditional" minotaurs would likely be what is seen in southlands.
Then again, this all spurs from what you think the minotaur's genesis point is. I think I may have a theory, but its just my idea.
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/legends.htm#minotaur |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 19:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, this all spurs from what you think the minotaur's genesis point is. I think I may have a theory, but its just my idea.
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/legends.htm#minotaur
I've always hated the cursed origin idea for minotaurs... Heck, the mythological minotaur was the son of a god, not a cursed human. I would far prefer some origin myth that didn't have minotaurs being the result of a curse. Perhaps they were worshippers of some bull-headed ancient deity, who blessed his people by giving them his appearance...
Anyway, while the origin of minotaurs is an interesting topic, I think it deserves a scroll of its own. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 23:47:32
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Wow, I just wanted to dicuss minotaur clans in the realms... This is great! I love the idea of a hero worshipping town/city of minotaurs... Perhaps the original minotaur hero was a follower of an early form/aspect of Tempus (or Helm, guardian aspect?)...
As for their origins, lets just skirt that issue... After all, many of the Realms inhabitants are transplants from other planes/prime material lands... I would like to avoid any inclination of an evil origin...
Walker, I agree with you that the issue of their reclusiveness needs to be addressed. I was thinking of explaining it by a cultural/social taboo given them by their Hero/demi-god to avoid entangling themselves in the affairs of other races, so as not to draw the attention of the giants they were once forced to serve... (this is a little weak)
I like the idea brought up by Walker of the different types of bovines from different areas. This could be interesting. The Lake of Steam Minotaurs, whenever they come into contact with these other breeds/types, especially if slaves, do their best to free them from their bondage and transplant them back to the Lake of Steam city... This could be one reason for the city (Minotopia? sorry, had to be said... talk about bad names or puns) becoming more well known, the population has increased due to natural births and transplanting other minotaurs from across Faerun. This increase has put pressure on the Herd Elders (sorry) to find a release for the excess young bulls (hot bloods). Namely, hire them out as mercenaries, but only under the immediate control of minotaur commanders... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 01:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not lawful... he's advocating rebellion, and while they're not Tau, they likely believe it is for *their* greater good... so there's a degree of selfishness here. I'd stretch the alignment a little further an say either CN/CG.
But I do see minotaurs has having something of an orderly leaning -- that's why I was more inclined to favor TN or NG.
Either way is good for me. I think the TN is slightly more difficult to accept than NG though by virtue of the fact that the minotaurs have actively moved to pursue their own destiny rather than just following "the winds of fate" for example -- which is what a truly neutral position would seem to suggest.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd also add war, or strategy, or battle... as a reflection of what they've been and where they are going as a people. Strategy is probably better because it has less "negative" themes running with it than do both war and battle.
A very good point. I should like to point out, though, that in my mind, strategy would also back up the orderly thing I mentioned above.
Aye... I can see that. Hmmmm... that works with bringing both war and battle to a slightly more "good-aligned" positioned and takes away some of the negative themes I mentioned earlier about what people thinking minotaurs are essentially warlike.
If we use NG/CG as the minotaurs alignment... we shouldn't have a problem promoting the war and battle aspects of the deity as inherently good.
quote:
What about the original deific patron, that helped our hero? And would our ascended hero be a servant (like Velsharoon served Talos) or an ally (like Finder and Tymora)? I favor the latter option, since we're talking about a racial deity.
Maybe a servant first, and then, as his position and prominence among the minotaurs grew... it become something else, an actual ally of the patron god. This would demonstrate the strength of belief in the patron and could later add that strength of faith to the "champion" when he also ascends.
I still have no idea about "who" this actual patron god is though.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 01:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Wow, I just wanted to dicuss minotaur clans in the realms... This is great! I love the idea of a hero worshipping town/city of minotaurs... Perhaps the original minotaur hero was a follower of an early form/aspect of Tempus (or Helm, guardian aspect?)...
Hmmm... that is interesting.
I think the CN of Tempus though is perhaps not the way to go here. We know the clergy of Tempus allows for both NG/CG alignments, as has been discussed here previously for the minotaur people... but the faith of Tempus can seem highly chaotic at times. If we still want the minotaurs to remain orderly, at the very least, I'd go with another god -- Torm or Helm for example.
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 16:44:19
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Most Highly esteemed Sage,
I was thinking of Torm, but was not sure how long he (or Helm, for that matter) has been in the Realms... I assume that the giant kingdoms were fairly ancient, I have yet to check that out... Serpent Kingdoms has a pretty good timeline for the ancient civilizations. Torm would better represent our Minotaur Hero's desire to protect and provide a better way of life for his people. |
ShadowJack |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 00:58:05
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Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.
The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.
It may be better working with giant deity at first...
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Edited by - The Sage on 26 Feb 2006 00:59:08 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 05:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.
The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.
It may be better working with giant deity at first...
You're likely correct on that one... It could still be a deity who has since died/left the Realms, too. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 08:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Torm didn't ascend to godhood until between -300 DR and -216DR.
The reign of giants was between -28,000DR and -25,000DR. The only way Tormite worship will work for our refugee minotaur group is if they'd somehow found a way to survive the fall of giant civilisation and progress to the point Torm became a god.
It may be better working with giant deity at first...
You're likely correct on that one... It could still be a deity who has since died/left the Realms, too.
Yeah, the Sage is on the mark as usual.
Looking over the entries in both Giantcraft and Serpent Kingdoms - - there's really no way the minotaur civilisation could have been worshipping Torm.
Perhaps, in an effort to determine who the patron god is, you should determine when exactly these minotaur refugees left the collapsing giant empire and made their way to the city they will conquer and make their own. At least that way you'll have a suitable period of Forgotten Realms history to work around.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 16:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Perhaps, in an effort to determine who the patron god is, you should determine when exactly these minotaur refugees left the collapsing giant empire and made their way to the city they will conquer and make their own. At least that way you'll have a suitable period of Forgotten Realms history to work around.
Well, they likely would have departed just before or just after the giants power collapsed post -25,000DR. I don't think they would have headed directly to the Lake of Steam since it was a significantly different region in that era that what it is today.
So perhaps we should instead account for the first few centuries of the refugee minotaurs after they depart of the giants realm and then go from there.
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Edited by - The Sage on 27 Feb 2006 16:38:05 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 20:26:01
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<<I like the idea of a minotaur realm. I might put one in the history of the East - the plateau of Thay looks like a possibility.
-- George Krashos>>
Yeah, and with all the gnolls around, it would absolutely fit as to why they don't like one another (competition for resources).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 20:45:02
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>>Well, I think George's original idea about the plateaus of Thay is definitely a good place >>to start. And it's isolated enough so that it doesn't have to have an immediate impact upon >>the "heart" of the Realms setting itself -- doing away with messy questions about "why this >>minotaur nation was never discovered or mentioned previously".
Actually, given that Thay's plateau was populated by some less than honorable centaurs, a horde of gnolls, many orc refugees from the orcgate wars, and had a neighboring country of star elves.... minotaurs would definitely seem to fit in. However, despite their strength, maybe they were being overwhelmed by numbers, and thus they dug into the plateaus and developed trapped mazes to protect their villages (but would come out to raid for food, etc..). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 20:48:45
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>>I think it would be interesting to have yak-folk and minotaurs >>interact... like a community of taurens (no reference to Warcraft >>intended). it would be similar to elves and humans living together.
Yes, and there was rumored in a dragon article on the yak folk to be a culture of them in the hordelands just east of Rashemen and Thay. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 22:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, they likely would have departed just before or just after the giants power collapsed post -25,000DR. I don't think they would have headed directly to the Lake of Steam since it was a significantly different region in that era that what it is today.
So perhaps we should instead account for the first few centuries of the refugee minotaurs after they depart of the giants realm and then go from there.
Just on that, the SK Timeline re the "Eras of Faerūn" is somewhat western side of the continent biased. We know that it was the emergence of the elves and the First Flowering that saw the decline of the giants and the dragons. However, I postulate that in the East, given the absence of any major elven nations before the end of the Crown Wars, the dragons and giants held sway longer and had realms/kingdoms that existed past -25000 DR. Just my 2 cp.
-- George Krashos
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 00:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, they likely would have departed just before or just after the giants power collapsed post -25,000DR. I don't think they would have headed directly to the Lake of Steam since it was a significantly different region in that era that what it is today.
So perhaps we should instead account for the first few centuries of the refugee minotaurs after they depart of the giants realm and then go from there.
Just on that, the SK Timeline re the "Eras of Faerūn" is somewhat western side of the continent biased. We know that it was the emergence of the elves and the First Flowering that saw the decline of the giants and the dragons. However, I postulate that in the East, given the absence of any major elven nations before the end of the Crown Wars, the dragons and giants held sway longer and had realms/kingdoms that existed past -25000 DR. Just my 2 cp.
-- George Krashos
Interesting.
So what type of timeframe would we be looking at George - - a few centuries past that date, or even a few millennia?
I'm assuming the collapse would be between -25,000DR and the coming of human tribes in the lands of Rashemen in -5,000DR.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 28 Feb 2006 00:28:05 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 00:51:02
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I must confess it's something I've only recently turned my mind to as a few other pieces have fallen into place regarding humans and hobgoblins. Essentially (and we must keep in mind that there is no Great Glacier at this time) I see the giant realms break off from a unified Ostoria and be located in the area where the GG is now. I'm thinking mostly frost and hill giants with a smattering of stone. No fire giants because I don't think the temperature suits them. Storm giants, again I postulate, leave after the fall of Ostoria and enter the Sea of Fallen Stars. These giant realms (and all things going well, we'll get to know the names of a few more than we do now, in time to come) have hobgoblin and human slaves (for work and food). I'm thinking the frost and stone have humans mostly and the hill giants have hobgoblins (who they also use as slave military troops). They are noweher near as big or populous as Ostoria but are not insignificant either.
The forests now known as the Rawlinswood and the Forest of Lethyr (Ed tells me that this used to be one big forest known as the Auldgloam) are where the 'free' hobgoblins and humans (i.e. mostly escaped slaves) live. At this time, this forest likely extends to the Aglarondan peninsula (and also west into Impiltur) and so the Yuir humans (noted in Demihuman Deities and "The Simbul's Gift") are likely one of the tribes of humans that live in these woodlands. Remember, we are talking primitive here. The humans and hobgoblins of the woodlands are in a constant state of quasi-war and raiding - whilst keeping away from the big folk, dragons and the slaver races of gnolls and minotaurs that live (in conflict) on the plateau to the south.
Following the Crown Wars, the elves decide to colonize the forest and do so in great numbers - mostly 'wood elves' and a smattering of moon and gold. They upset the balance in the region driving out both the hobgoblins and the humans - although the isolated Yuir remain a touch longer. Naturally, neither the humans nor the hobgoblins leave without a fight. The hobgoblins use fire (hence clearing the woods from what are now the Uplands of Impiltur) but eventually both races are (for the most part) driven north into the plains and tundra now encompassed by the Great Glacier. The giants are now weaker than before (having fought great conflicts with the dragons - to the detriment of both races) and the humans and hobgoblins more than hold their own. In fact, their forced migration north in c.-10000 to -9500 DR smashes the giant 'kingdoms' and they revert to isolated clans and family groupings. These humans are the racial grouping we now refer to as the Nar.
With the formation of the Great Glacier (and I have to somehow tally this with the myth in "Giantcraft" re Othea and Ulutiu - I hate to say it but the dates aren't even close so Ulutiu's slumber is likely something of a mystery and nothing to do with the fall of Ostoria - no matter what the bards would tell you) and its spread south, the hobgoblins and humans are on the move again. This time back to the forests and into clashes with the elves. Both the humans and hobgoblins have has millenia to organise, grow in knowledge and power etc. They battle ceaslessly with the elves and eventually the elves Retreat to other elven kingdoms such as Eaerlann and Illefarn or even Evereska and Evermeet.
This brings us pretty close to recorded history in the East. There are lots more gaps (which I'm filling as best I can) but that's the gist of how I see things happening. Of course, I forgot to mention the dwarves, but they are in there as well - somewhere!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 01:16:50
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Nice, George, VERY nice. Ed has some giants' realm names in his original (faint, smudged) pencil Realms notes, from the 1970s. I saw them once whilst snooping after Realmslore.
Yes, I AM bad.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 28 Feb 2006 01:58:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 02:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Nice, George, VERY nice. Ed has some giants' realm names in his original (faint, smudged) pencil Realms notes, from the 1970s. I saw them once whilst snooping after Realmslore.
Yes, I AM bad.
love,
THO
Does that mean we need to spank you for being bad?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 04:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Nice, George, VERY nice. Ed has some giants' realm names in his original (faint, smudged) pencil Realms notes, from the 1970s. I saw them once whilst snooping after Realmslore.
Yes, I AM bad.
love,
THO
Quite true my lady  . Bravo George, very nice indeed.
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Minotaur Cultures in the Realms?
