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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 12:44:24
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Mr. Krashos,
AWESOME!
I am humbled to be in thy presence... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 12:54:32
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| So, Our minotaur having been forced to take part in these numerous conflicts on behalf of the giants, decide they are done. They strike a deal with dwarves?, not likely, Elves?, possible, In return for not following orders and attacking an elven settlement/kingdom, they strike a deal. The elves allow them use of a gate that transports them a great distance. The minotaurs wander for several hundred years (nomadic)supporting themselves through mercenary endeavors. Finally, they find the remains of a (maze-like) city on the southern coast of the Lake of Steam, drive off the (true) monsters and set up shop. Several hundred years after that they are shocked when a group of gnomes shows up in their midst with an elven escort, calling in a favor from the minotaurs past. The gnomes are escaped slaves from Netheril being helped to escape by the elves. (read on the Wizard's website, somewhere... About old elven gates) The minotaurs, being honorable, agree to take them in. What happens next is surprising as a strong symbiotic relationship occurs... and persists to this day... |
ShadowJack |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 13:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Mr. Krashos,
My dad is here!?!
quote:
AWESOME!
I am humbled to be in thy presence...
Oh don't be so silly! I'm just making stuff up like everybody else. It's not so hard if you try. Glad you liked my musings.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 17:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
So, Our minotaur having been forced to take part in these numerous conflicts on behalf of the giants, decide they are done. They strike a deal with dwarves?, not likely, Elves?, possible, In return for not following orders and attacking an elven settlement/kingdom, they strike a deal. The elves allow them use of a gate that transports them a great distance. The minotaurs wander for several hundred years (nomadic)supporting themselves through mercenary endeavors. Finally, they find the remains of a (maze-like) city on the southern coast of the Lake of Steam, drive off the (true) monsters and set up shop. Several hundred years after that they are shocked when a group of gnomes shows up in their midst with an elven escort, calling in a favor from the minotaurs past. The gnomes are escaped slaves from Netheril being helped to escape by the elves. (read on the Wizard's website, somewhere... About old elven gates) The minotaurs, being honorable, agree to take them in. What happens next is surprising as a strong symbiotic relationship occurs... and persists to this day...
Hmmm... It's rough, but I like the idea.
I don't know that the ruined city needs to be maze-like, or even needs to exist at all. It could have been that the minotaurs broke up into groups, not unlike tribes. They picked a convenient/designated spot for meetings and trade, and, as time passed, that spot grew into a city as the minotaurs became less nomadic.
The spot could even be where their leader died or was buried. First it became a shrine, then it became a temple as the city formed around it... Going with this angle, the temple would be near the center of the town, and the clergy would be an important part of the government. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Feb 2006 17:19:07 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 19:20:04
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Wooly,
I like the idea of the city being the spot where their leader died. The idea of the clergy being central to their government is excellent. These older clergy, the wisest in the various tribes, are the elders that direct the daily affairs of their culture. To keep it from being a total theocracy, there is also a "Warleader". The greatest, most well-liked warrior of the city. It is his task to carry on the spirit and ideals of the original Hero/Leader. In a way the clergy/elders are the legislature and the warleader is the executive. The temple also serves as the government seat with an assembly hall.
So, that having been said, I gotta ask... What do ya'll think about the gnomes being included in this? (Be kind) I like the gnomes...
the maze thing I am suggesting only because it is part of their stats in all the books. It also sets them apart more from the other races...
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ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 20:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Wooly,
I like the idea of the city being the spot where their leader died. The idea of the clergy being central to their government is excellent. These older clergy, the wisest in the various tribes, are the elders that direct the daily affairs of their culture. To keep it from being a total theocracy, there is also a "Warleader". The greatest, most well-liked warrior of the city. It is his task to carry on the spirit and ideals of the original Hero/Leader. In a way the clergy/elders are the legislature and the warleader is the executive. The temple also serves as the government seat with an assembly hall.
Yeah, I like the idea of making their religion more prominent, too.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
So, that having been said, I gotta ask... What do ya'll think about the gnomes being included in this? (Be kind) I like the gnomes...
It's an odd idea, and it'd make for some interesting architecture, because of the size difference. There's going to have to be a good reason for the two races to coexist, I think... The elven favor idea is a good start, but I'd add something more into it, to reinforce it. Maybe the gnomes in some way later aided the minotaurs, earning their gratitude. Maybe it was some great service they did for the city (like misdirecting a serious threat before the minotaurs knew about it), or maybe it was something simpler, like a later warleader being best buds with a gnome, causing his people to follow his lead.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
the maze thing I am suggesting only because it is part of their stats in all the books. It also sets them apart more from the other races...
I can see keeping the maze thing, since it is in all the books. But, as I pointed out earlier, it's an odd mythological artifact. I think that this too would require some justification for it to make sense. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Feb 2006 20:28:47 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 22:14:05
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This is a little far out there...
What if the gnomes managed to get their hands on one section of the Nether Scrolls? The elves, get them out of Netheril, but, for some reason, do not want to take possession of the scroll. The elves remember the minotaurs debt to their ancestors and call in the favor with the minotaurs. Take in these refugees, for a while, keep them and the Nether Scroll safe for a period of 100 years??? After this time your debt to us (the elves) is paid in full.The clergy/elders, because of their deities mythos, see guarding the Scroll as a sacred duty, and agree. What happens is the Minotaurs find that the gnome's skills with various things is beneficial. The gnomes provide armor, weapons?, alchemical substances, and magic. Some gnome mages even hire out with the mercenary bands, providing magical fire power. The minotaurs know how to fight, farm and maybe, some construction, the gnomes provide very useful items that aid their lives. The city is not well known because of illusionary magic that the gnomes employed to keep it hidden from the minotaurs ancient enemies, the frost giants???, who occasionally come looking for them, and did so not long after the gnomes are taken in... The Scroll is placed in "maze-like" catacombs beneath the temple, where it remains guarded by secrecy, gnome magic and minotaur might...
Sorry so long...
Now we just need an appropriate deity... I have no giant sourcebooks, any ideas? |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 22:47:47
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I like it!
Except for the sacred duty part... With what we've kicked around thus far, I don't see guarding the Scroll as being a sacred duty.
And there would have to be a really good reason for the elves to not take in the Scroll. I'd likely go with some other item, something the elves would not want in their borders but would still want guarded. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 01:45:13
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I'll go with what Wooly said in his 28 Feb 2006 : 20:26:24 reply.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like it!
Except for the sacred duty part... With what we've kicked around thus far, I don't see guarding the Scroll as being a sacred duty.
And there would have to be a really good reason for the elves to not take in the Scroll. I'd likely go with some other item, something the elves would not want in their borders but would still want guarded.
I'm not too sure about the Nether Scroll either. It just doesn't fit with the whole work-up we've established for the minotaurs so far. However, if that's the way you want to go... more power to you  .
It might be worthwhile designing another artifact for this sacred duty aspect -- perhaps something that the minotaurs would automatically want to protect and would therefore see this task as a sacred duty.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 03:07:53
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Well Met and Good Day, Noble Sages!
I have been working on details/timeline (rough) of our minotaur hero (here after referred to as Ketor; name subject to change) I will post this in sections so it will not be too long. I ask for your opinions and help in correcting any mistakes or conflicts...
-6000 A splinter/remnant of Ostoria has been in existence for several hundred years on the present day Thayan Plateau. The giants of this small realm are few in number and rule it with an iron hand. Despite constant pressure from numerous foes, the kingdom has persisted, due in large part to the huge numbers of minotaurs that serve the Giants as troops. A large population of gnolls are also used as cannon fodder by the giant rulers of the kingdom. There is constant fighting between the minotaurs and gnolls.
-5500 Due to attrition, the minotaur population has steadily declined, they now number seriously less than the gnolls that are there neighbors. Gnolls are gaining more prestige with giant rulers due to their larger numbers.
-5300 Ketor, a minotaur leader, gains notice of minotaurs and Giant Rulers alike, due to his large size, great wisdom and strength. Under his leadership the minotaurs are winning every battle they engage in for their giant masters. Ketor is alarmed by the cost (in lives)to his people. The gnolls cease hostilites, largely out of fear of Ketor's leadership.
-5295 Ketor appeals to his giant masters for a reprieve from the fighting. He asks for time for the minotaurs to rebuild strength. The giant Lords refuse and order him north to attack hobgoblin tribes. After they are killed or driven off the minotaurs are to attack into the Auldgloam and seize elven cities. The minotaurs will be the spearhead and the gnolls will follow behind to clean up.
-5294 Bound by his peoples oath of service to the Giant Kings of the realm, Ketor leads his people north and engages the hobgoblins. They win every battle, but the losses are higher than expected. The minotaur groups split over the casualties. Several large bands of minotaurs break their oaths and leave in the night. Eventually, these groups enter the Underdark to hide from their enemies and former masters. These minotaurs are referred to by the Ketoran Minotaurs as the "Shamed" and the event as the "Shame". The minotaurs as a fighting force are now greatly weakened.
-5293 Saddened by the schism in his people and further losses to the numerous (but retreating) hobgoblins, Ketor stops short of invading the Auldgloam. He claims he is taking time to regroup his forces and await the gnoll legions, but, actually, he has received a vision in his dreams; the minotaurs destruction is inevitable if they enter the Auldgloam. This vision is delivered by a bloodied and crippled human surrounded by a glowing light. Ketor secures his position and, with a few of his great warleaders, returns to the Thayan Plateau to report to his masters. He shares his vision with them and asks that his people be withdrawn from the attack on the elves. The giants are outraged, a fight ensues, Ketor's warleaders are killed and he is seriously wounded. Ketor escapes from the Giants Stronghold. He is close to death and collapses... The giant lords dispatch one of their own to take command of the minotaurs and proceeed with the attack on the Auldgloam.
more later... |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 02:29:03
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So, to resurrect this concept...
I'm reading thru the Border Kingdoms section of Power of Faerûn. In my opinion, Qurth Forest is a good locale for our minotaur city-state (Ketorn, named after Ketor?). I'd put it inside the forest, and say that the reason no one knew of it was because the minotaurs followed a fairly isolationist policy. Other than gnomish farmers and minotaurs sent out to act as mercs, they kept their contact with the outside world to a minimum.
Another notation: after reading the article on Baphomet, I also like the idea of a religious schism. I'd say that sometime after fleeing the giants, a group of Baphomet worshippers started causing trouble, leading to a civil war. The Baphomet-followers lost, and either fled or were forced into the Underdark. The other group stuck around, becoming the city-state we're talking about.
It's even possible that the schism was brewing before the minotaurs fled the giant kingdoms. Ketor could have been mortally wounded in his victory over Baphomet's high priest, which became part of the legend that led to his deification. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 12:46:59
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Wow!
Awesome idea! The schism would account for the Underdark minotaurs and also Ketor's death! I just picked up Power of Faerun (which I had decided not to buy, until I heard there was Border Kingdom info in it...) I wondered how this would affect the minotaur idea... I like the idea of having them in the Qurth Forest. Their isolation is aided by gnomish illusion. Where was the article on Baphomet? I am eagerly awaiting more info from Ed on WotC website dealing with the Border Kingdoms. What better place to hire out minotaur mercenaries? If anyone is interested I will post the next segment of the timeline, with Wooly's new ideas incorporated. Let me know, I do not want to be a bore... |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 14:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Wow!
Awesome idea! The schism would account for the Underdark minotaurs and also Ketor's death! I just picked up Power of Faerun (which I had decided not to buy, until I heard there was Border Kingdom info in it...) I wondered how this would affect the minotaur idea... I like the idea of having them in the Qurth Forest. Their isolation is aided by gnomish illusion. Where was the article on Baphomet? I am eagerly awaiting more info from Ed on WotC website dealing with the Border Kingdoms. What better place to hire out minotaur mercenaries? If anyone is interested I will post the next segment of the timeline, with Wooly's new ideas incorporated. Let me know, I do not want to be a bore...
The Baphomet article was an issue or two ago in Dragon. The guy is so strongly associated with minotaurs that I wasn't comfortable excluding his influence... And we already know he's got minotaur worshippers in the Realms, which was another point in favor of including him. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 17:47:59
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You might also check out the vestiges in Pact Magic. There's some hint there that Thrym had something to do with the initial creation of Minotaurs. I think it even mentions Annam (book isn't here), so with that name it might be considered Canon.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 06:20:13
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Hello-
Aye - that forest would make a great location.
Another small tie-in - the write-up in PoF on Oeble includes a shopkeeper by the name of Thoele Raervrun who is a Damaran human fighter - who was enspelled into minotaur-form by a wizard a long time ago. Makes sense that a wizard might enspell someone into the shape of something 'different' that he may have seen recently - and if you postulate that Thoele has been in Oeble longer than he has been enspelled - and that since Oeble is near the Qurth Forest - this ties in quite well!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 08:10:15
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Ah Dhomal, it's little lore-links like that which make the Realms the grand place that it is. Good job!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 12:52:49
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Dhomal,
I have just started digging into PoF. Nice job! |
ShadowJack |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 04:37:08
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| I have always been interested in Minotaurs, ever since DL. I like the idea of them being explored in teh realms, at least on some level. I have always felt they were more than creatures encountered in mazes and such |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 19:16:53
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Next Installment...
As Ketor lays dying an unknown deity appears to him and heals his wounds. This deity says he has seen the honor with which Ketor's people have endured their bondage to the giants. This deity wishes to aid the minotaurs. Ketor agrees to serve the deity forever and renounce giant deities and Baphomet in return for help. The deity takes Ketor to a large elven city in the Auldgloam. Ketor offers to lead his minotaur army away without attacking if the elves will aid their escape. The elven Coronal agrees with one condition; the minotaurs agree to perform some service for the elven people if ever they should ask. Ketor reluctantly agrees. Ketor returns to his people and tells them of his agreement with the deity and the elves. Most of the minotaurs agree as a large force of giant-led gnolls is approaching. The minority priests of Baphomet are displeased but agree to follow.
The gnolls are ready to attack with overwhelming numbers when Ketor challenges the giant leader to combat. Armed with a magical axe and powerful abilities from the deity, Ketor defeats the giant and his people force the gnolls to retreat enough to give them a chance at escape. True to their word, the elves lead the minotaurs into the Auldgloam to a large gate. Ketor leads his people through the gate to an old ruined city in the Firesteap mountains. For the next thousand years ketor leads his people in a nomadic journey from place to place at the direction of his patron deity. The minotaurs support themselves as mercenaries.
Next the death of Ketor... |
ShadowJack |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 02:14:17
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Looks good so far...
Though, I'm not too sure about the fact that Ketor has agreed so readily to the "unknown deity". I would imagine he has the interests of his people at heart and their continued survival, but I would also think he would remain a little cautious about who this unknown deity actually is and what his motives are.
I'm not saying Ketor doesn't have to go along with it... but I think you should try to at least convey the fact that he is a little weary about this power. Weary of the fact that it might seize upon the desparation of his people for itself and perhaps draw Ketor and his people into the machinations of other places or powers.
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 03:34:46
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| All too true! If he is as great a leader as I am implying, he would have to have reservations about trusting the future of his people to another power... This will need to be addressed. Any ideas? |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 03:59:31
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| He could have already known the deity, at least indirectly... Perhaps one of his friends or a close confidant was a follower of this deity? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 04:06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He could have already known the deity, at least indirectly... Perhaps one of his friends or a close confidant was a follower of this deity?
Sounds good enough for me too.
Perhaps Ketor has only heard rumors of this unknown power in the past, and decides to learn more for himself, either through his friend, as Wooly suggests, or by hunting for followers himself.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2006 : 23:46:31
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-4300 DR The Death of Ketor
The minoyaurs wander into the area of the Qurth Forest. Hunting parties find a large, easily defended clearing in the midst of the woods. Ketor leads his people into the woods to rest and regroup from their wanderings. Using this time of peace to their advantage, the followers of Baphomet, a small, but powerful faction in the minotaur tribes, attempts to assasinate Ketor and his strongest supporters. By this time Ketor is revered by most of his people as a god. The High Priest of Baphomet, imbued with powers from his god, attacks Ketor. Ketor slays the priest of Baphomet in a day long battle using the powers and magical axe given to him by his patron deity. The followers of Baphomet are routed out of the tribes with the survivors fleeing into the Underdark, just as the "shamed" did before them. Ketor is weakened and seriously wounded to the point of death. His last act is to appoint a Warleader in his place. The grieving minotaurs build a huge cairn over the body of their leader and place his magical axe and armor with him. The next thousand years see the minotaurs migrating back to the Qurth Forest every ten years to honor Ketor. By this time Ketor is venerated as their patron god. These minotaur tribes are led by the Priests of Ketor and an appointed Warleader.
-4400 DR Raising of the Temple and founding of the city of Ketorn.
The High Priest of Ketor recieves a vision from Ketor. He leads the minotaurs back to the site of his deities mortal death. Once there he instructs the people to build a temple to Ketor. Using many of the stones from the cairn a massive temple is begun to honor Ketor.
-4280 DR The temple is completed. In the final ceremony, Ketor's remains and armor are interred in maze/catacombs beneath the temple. The magical axe (Bardiche, magic abilities? stats?) gifted to Ketor is given to the warleader as a sign of Ketor's favor. During this time a small city grows up around the temple, it is named Ketorn to honor their deity. The minotaurs hunt, farm a little and continue to hire out as mercenaries. The minotaurs are very isolationist and allow no visitors to their city. Its existence is almost unknown.
next the Elves return... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 00:02:18
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| Sorry, the middle date given in the last entry should be -3300 DR and the last should be -3280 DR. Need to get all my notes together in one place... |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:22:52
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Slight digression from the direction that this particular thread is going in, but with the information on Haagenti in Tome of Magic, I was wondering if perhaps, Haagenti, after being cast off, might not have been more of a patroness of "good" or "neutral" minotaurs. Perhaps Baphomet could have taken her as a mate (reluctantly on her part) and after subverting her children, Baphomet then did away with her.
Just a random thought to throw in, especially with a name associated with Minotaur origins popping up recently. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 17:56:02
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| KEjr, I do not have that particular tome so I can not utilize it. It does sound like it would fit into the theme... More info would be appreciated. Wooly, between school and computer malfunctions I am behind on my postings. I will update within the week... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 17:47:49
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 -3144 The small city of Ketorn has continued to thrive and maintain its relative isolation within the expanse of the Qurth Forest. Companies of Minotaur mercenaries are hired from as far away as Mir(Tethyr), the Jhaamdath(Vilhon Reach) and of course, Calimshan.
The minotaurs are shocked when their isolation is broken by the appearance of a large, well-armed band of Moon Elves approaches the gates and demands to see the Warleader and High Priest of Ketor. The warleader assembles a warband of minotaurs to drive them off, but, is stopped by the High Priest before any hostilities ensue. The High Priest has the elves escorted to the Temple where they remain for two days. Early on the third day the elves depart as quickly as they appeared. Minotaur rangers follow them as far as old ruins in a wwild section of the forest.
Several months later the elves return, escorting a group of 200 gnomes; escaped slaves from Nehteril. The gnomes are brought into the city whereupon the High Priest reminds the puzzled minotaurs of the ancient promise that Ketor made with the elves. Minotaur craftsmen help the gnomes construct the Burrow Quarter of Ketorn. Rumors abound of a powerful magic that the gnomes brought with them, and the elves would prefer kept secret, that is hidden in the bowels of Ketor's Temple.
-3133 to 1311
Ketorn remains largley unknown outside of the Qurth Forest, due to its isolation and gnomish illusions. The city continues to grow with the main exports being mercenaries. As both gnome and minotaur populations increase there is increased pressure on the Warleader and the High Priest to allow trade with neighboring cities. For centuries this reuest is denied.
-1325
After years of debate, the High Priest of Ketor tells the people of Ketorn that their god has told him them to rejoin the world around them. Many are puzzled by this sudden reversal of policy. Gnome craftsmen are elated. Late in this year, the first group of gnome merchants leaves the city and finds ready buyers for Minotuar maze-pattern cloth and gnomish metal goods, cut gems and wood carvings.
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ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 17:51:23
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| This is what I have completed so far. As you can see there are huge gaps in the timeline. I welcome any ideas that can tie-in to realms events during this time. Let me know what you think. I appreciate any feedback. |
ShadowJack |
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Minotaur Cultures in the Realms?
