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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 08:09:20
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Hello-
I am trying to do the best I can with wrapping my head around 3.5 rules - and I *AM* making some headway. 
Recently - someone described to me (in generalities) how to 'build' a villian I have come up with for the campaign I am planning.
Essentially - I have a monster type that I want to have levels in a class. I was basically instructed to 'build' the class at whatever level - and then just change the race - and add the CR for the race and the class together to get the actual CR.
Is it really that simple?
Thanks in advance for any information!
Dhomal
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I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 12:38:48
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Yup, it's really that simple. For an example of this you can just look at some of the monsters that have variants with class levels. Here are a few examples from the Monster Manual 3.5....
Hound Archon = CR 4
Hound Archon Hero (which is Hound Archon Paladin 12) = CR 16
Ogre = CR 3
Ogre Barbarian 4 = CR 7
Where it gets a little trickier is if you were to play one of these monster races as a PC or a longstanding NPC that gains levels because then you must factor in their Level Adjustment to figure out experience needed. But if you're just using it as an enemy and need a CR it is as simple as the Monster's normal CR + Class Levels.
Hope this answers your question.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 12:44:19
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It's nearly that simple.
I wouldn't say you should do all of the class level work, then just slide the racial modifiers on, however; start with the racial statistics and then add the class levels on. The distinction is quite significant in some cases; rules for this are on pages 290-291 of the MM.
Ability scores are another thing, buried at the top of page 293 of the MM.
Finally, the process for figuring out the resultant CR is on the same page.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Yup, it's really that simple.
Incorrect; you're not taking into account non-associated class levels, for example.
quote:
Where it gets a little trickier is if you were to play one of these monster races as a PC or a longstanding NPC that gains levels because then you must factor in their Level Adjustment to figure out experience needed.
No! LA has nothing to do with NPCs at all. |
Edited by - Arivia on 21 Feb 2006 12:46:48 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 13:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
No! LA has nothing to do with NPCs at all.
Notice I said a "longstanding NPC". Some DM's like to have an NPC adventure with the party for the long haul and just like another PC, only run by the DM. If that is the case than level adjustment should be factored in so the monsterous race party member isn't stealing the show.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 13:21:25
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Well that is not the way I would do it.
I would select race first, then add class levels.
In general a PC class level adds 1 CR and NPC level adds 1/2 CR.
Depending on improved creature the CR calculation might not be balanced and the only way to know for sure what it should be is by play testing them.
Other factors that can effect CR are wealth, usable items and so on.
The math is simple, however the CR might be off. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 14:25:20
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At the risk of making your transition into 3ed more of a nightmare, I offer my experiences with the CR system.
CR is not a science. It sure looks like it might be simple math (base CR + Levels = Final CR), but as Kentinal pointed out, there are many other factors involved in adjusting CR. In theory you should be able to purchase the right amount of gear in accordance with the beasties CR according to level guidelines, but that’s very easy to get lost in.
Environmental factors add to CR as well; a well executed ambush with the baddies hidden and having higher ground does add to the CR.
Then take into effect how you made the PC’s. Do they have higher than the standard array of stats? Extra money? More equipment? A few extra magic items? If so, their CR is actually higher, but of course the CR of the party is based on 4 people.
CR is not a science, but an art. The best advice I can give you is to listen to above as far as creating a CR by the book, and then play play play and you will develop a feel for what is a good challenge, and the CR numbers will just become a very rough guideline as to what is appropriate.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 14:57:42
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| CR is not a level its like a situation. Monsters have a certain Challenge rating... (start with their stats) then classes add on to the CR becaue levels make creatures more challenging (as arivia said add on the CR from levels). This is the CR for the creature with those levels. However as Jindael said things can be harder depending on how they are presented. An orc trapped at the bottom of a pit is easier than an orc in front of you. Use the cr of the creature with some modifiers determined by the situation to find the Encounter Level.... but this is all described on page 48-50 of the DMG 3.5 |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 04:22:51
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Hello-
Somehow - I'm not surprised that Arivia was one of the respondants! 
I certainly get the idea that the CRs are a 'relatve gauge' of power. I am basically planning on having the NPC villain 'rise in levels' somewhat - although the PCs will not even encounter the villain until later - so I don't need to necessarilly create a 'start of campaign' build - as long as I have an idea of rough abilities etc at that point. I may actually bounce the idea off everyone here at some point. I think its quite clever in some ways! :)
Thanks for the feedback - and any additoional is welcome!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 02:17:36
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NPCs with Racial Hit Dice, should be made as a member of their Race before tacking on Class Levels.
A Number of Races can qualify for Prestige Classes before they even take a Class Level.
Generally for the CR adjustments for Class Levels if the Class works well with the race, then every Level is +1 CR. (Ogre/Fighter/Ranger for example)
If it is a Class that doesn't work well, then it is +1/2 for each Class Level up to a certain point which I have unfortunately forgotten. (Ogre/Wizard for example) |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 03:01:18
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
If it is a Class that doesn't work well, then it is +1/2 for each Class Level up to a certain point which I have unfortunately forgotten. (Ogre/Wizard for example)
Up until a number of class levels equal to racial HD. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 14:57:00
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| damn you're good Arivia!! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
Edited by - Beirnadri Magranth on 23 Feb 2006 14:57:22 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 21:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
damn you're good Arivia!!
For my next trick, I shall attempt to reconstruct the type pyramid(a rules detail possibly only few of you have even heard of) from memory:
Top:Construct,elemental,ooze,outsider,undead
Middle:Aberration,dragon,fey,plant,vermin
Bottom:Animal,giant,humanoid,magical beast,monstrous humanoid
Okay, that I failed on. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 22:24:05
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i dont get it...
(woohoo 200th post) |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 09:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
damn you're good Arivia!!
For my next trick, I shall attempt to reconstruct the type pyramid(a rules detail possibly only few of you have even heard of) from memory:
Top:Construct,elemental,ooze,outsider,undead
Middle:Aberration,dragon,fey,plant,vermin
Bottom:Animal,giant,humanoid,magical beast,monstrous humanoid
Okay, that I failed on.
Looks correct to me, or very close to it. |
News of the Weird
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 12:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Looks correct to me, or very close to it.
It's somewhat close; see pages 142-143 of Savage Species to see how badly I screwed up. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 20:51:25
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Hello-
Hmmm - Savage Species comes up yet again. Is this something that I should really think about picking up? Will it help / aid me in creating monsters with levels etc?
I seem to remember flipping though it at work - and thinking it was designed more for PC use - and thats something that I would not be as interested in. However - I have made purchasing mistakes in the past.... and will likely do so again in the future!
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 20:52:54
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| Well, there are some feats in there that are more or less only a monster can qualify for, and they are kind of fun to add special qualities to monsters that aren't in the MM that can surprise the heck out of players. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 07:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
Hmmm - Savage Species comes up yet again. Is this something that I should really think about picking up? Will it help / aid me in creating monsters with levels etc?
I seem to remember flipping though it at work - and thinking it was designed more for PC use - and thats something that I would not be as interested in. However - I have made purchasing mistakes in the past.... and will likely do so again in the future!
Dhomal
Word of warning, Savage Species is a 3.25E book.
It came out right at the crossover, so there are a number of stats for creatures in it that are mixed up. |
News of the Weird
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 07:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Word of warning, Savage Species is a 3.25E book.
It came out right at the crossover, so there are a number of stats for creatures in it that are mixed up.
That, and it's the most mechanically complex of any 3e book so far. Some of the stuff in there makes my head spin a bit. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 03:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Word of warning, Savage Species is a 3.25E book.
It came out right at the crossover, so there are a number of stats for creatures in it that are mixed up.
That, and it's the most mechanically complex of any 3e book so far. Some of the stuff in there makes my head spin a bit.
I'll have to agree with you big time on that.
And if a DM isn't careful, players can find things to exploit in there too. Had one try to pull something on me from it before. |
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Rules Question - 3.5 edition
